Nurses making more than residents?

[cherubb3]

I am a nurse. I love my job and it's a pretty nice gig, but there are some moments in my work that are just not worth the money. The other day I had a patient coughing and throwing up... at the same time. As you can imagine, it was a mess. The resident works long and hard hours, but was able to walk out of the room in that situation while I tended to the patient. I have had to pull soiled pants off of a post-ictal alcoholic and clean off smeared poop down his leg. I have been threatened, have had (full) urinals thrown at me, and have been kicked, smacked, and spit on. In these moments, I buckle down and remind myself that I'm not just doing what I do for the money, but it's also the right thing to do.

I'm not saying residents couldn't be paid more, but we all have struggles and deserve to be appropriately compensated. I have heard a good nurse is worth his/her weight in gold, and I strive to be that kind of nurse.

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[collegestud2013]

Residents salary are low because resident positions are government funded, and the government is thus artificially pushing down pay to below their market value (after all we can't waste any taxpayer money right...). Let's say a resident works average 60 hrs per week (obviously it's probably higher in some specialties like surgery and lower in that in derm) and makes $55k a year, that's about $17.60/hr. But keep in mind this is just the base salary. If you're a resident and want to make more money you should probably just moonlight (just make sure your program allows it and you still don't go over the 80 hr/week limit). The moonlight hours are paid privately by the hospitals, so you are actually getting paid your market value. From another thread on SDN people say they were making about $80-120/hr, so you can (at least in theory) easily double or triple your salary by moonlighting 10-20 hrs a week on top of your normal resident responsibilities.

Also, the nurses that make as much as attendings are probably the more experienced ones and with more advanced training. For example, CRNAs make similar amounts as primary care physicians, but beyond the typical BSN they have to have 3 years of ICU work experience (which is usually done straight after getting the BSN and pays around $50-60k year for a typical 40 hr work week), plus another two years of school in CRNA program that leads to a masters level degree (and these CRNA programs don't have cheap tuition either and often requires taking out loans).

 

[alpinism]

The work performed by residents must be directly supervised in order to bill for it.

For general inpatient care (i.e. rounding, writing orders and notes), an attending could do all that work in less time if they didn't have to supervise residents.

For procedures, if I put in a chest tube by myself (i.e. no attending there to supervise it) and they bill for it - that's medicare fraud. If they are there to supervise, it is either literally duplicated work that they could do themselves, or they spend extra time teaching me how to do it.

In either case (procedures or general patient care), it is duplicated work.

This is in direct contrast to a PA or NP, who can bill for independent services provided.

Eh that really depends on the field.

I'm sure its true for surgery but for example on our hospital's medicine teaching service some of the faculty literally work 8-4 hours with an hour lunch break every day (2 week on 2 week off schedule). They come in, read up on patients, round with the team at 9am, do some teaching, occasionally supervise some procedures, co-sign notes, and leave by 4pm (This is straight from my last attending's mouth). They don't write any orders, write any notes, call consults, get consents, answer pages, answer patient/family questions, manage social/placement issues, do discharge paperwork, etc...

Of course they also make much less than private practice as well.

Now, I could be entirely wrong, but I sincerely doubt that one attending could do all the work of 3 residents (everything mentioned above with a 12-20 patient census) and still be done before 4pm everyday. Not to mention that in most circumstances a good senior resident is more than competent enough to handle most basic issues on their own without any direct supervision/teaching.

 

[jl lin]

I am sure because of the nature of your job and the socioeconomics you see the bad cases. I would like to offer a counterpoint. I used to work in a grocery store in a rich suburb. The amount of people on food stamps that came through my store was probably 25-40%. The thing was many of these people bought healthy foods and told their children that they couldnt have that candy or some other healthy options. No one really noticed that they were on food stamps because they fit into our society. But once a person carries a pack of cigarettes/booze everyone puts on their judgement caps. Then we notice they are poor and on government assistance. Then we make a sweeping generalization about the poor that is not all encompassing. It's quite a shame this concept is so deeply engrained into our culture.

OK, but anecdotally, along w/ knowing people that actually work in retail, that is not as common as you may think. You don't use food stamps to buy crap that isn't needed for you and your children. I have worked in community health as well as critical care.
It gets tough dealing with parents that smoke > than 1-2 packs per day, do "other" substances, and then literally sit their kids down to paper plates with Cheetos on them for DINNER. This is not the right use of these resources, and that it goes on as much as it does is beyond asinine. Yes, I will make reasonable judgments, which do NOT make be judgmental (as in condemnation), about the sound use of resources to support the wellbeing of people and their minors. That is the reason for the allocation of these resources in the first place. It doesn't make me some who is out to condemn the poor for God's sake! It's our responsibility to help people understand how to properly use these resources. God, the second you try to talk about compliance and accountability you are misjudged as a judgmental, condemning person. This is part of what is totally screwy about our society.

 

[jl lin]

I am a nurse. I love my job and it's a pretty nice gig, but there are some moments in my work that are just not worth the money. The other day I had a patient coughing and throwing up... at the same time. As you can imagine, it was a mess. The resident works long and hard hours, but was able to walk out of the room in that situation while I tended to the patient. I have had to pull soiled pants off of a post-ictal alcoholic and clean off smeared poop down his leg. I have been threatened, have had (full) urinals thrown at me, and have been kicked, smacked, and spit on. In these moments, I buckle down and remind myself that I'm not just doing what I do for the money, but it's also the right thing to do.

I'm not saying residents couldn't be paid more, but we all have struggles and deserve to be appropriately compensated. I have heard a good nurse is worth his/her weight in gold, and I strive to be that kind of nurse.

I am a nurse also, and I can tell you a number of occasions where in the units, during codes, the residents and I both got hit/covered with blood. A lot of these extremely critical patients will develop coagulopathies and just start bleeding thing from everywhere. The one resident was about 5 months pregnant. I have a natural tendency of being a bit more protective of a pregnant person. *Shrug* Anyway, I felt badly for the patient, the family, and all the rest of us; but there was time to think, "Hey, I am glad I get paid a bit more than these residents." It just doesn't go down that way, b/c it's a team and the focus is the patient.

Just thought I would throw that in there, b/c it's not necessarily true that residents and fellow or even attendings at times don't get caught up in some mess--at least not in the ED or the units. I mean you gown up when you see how bad it is, but sometimes people just start swinging in there and you are busy and the crap hits the fan.

I am neither against nurses getting decent salaries.

The person above pointed out different sources of renumeration.
In residency, it's about clinical as well as didactic learning WITH A STIPEND.
There is really no sense in making a comparison between nurses' salaries and residents' salaries. They are two very different situations. Residency income is about being granted a very modest allowance WHILST one is in the midst of long-term clinical and didactic learning, in order to meet requirements for licensure and board certification. That's it in a nutshell. What nurses make has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

 

[jl lin]

Residents salary are low because resident positions are government funded, and the government is thus artificially pushing down pay to below their market value (after all we can't waste any taxpayer money right...). Let's say a resident works average 60 hrs per week (obviously it's probably higher in some specialties like surgery and lower in that in derm) and makes $55k a year, that's about $17.60/hr. But keep in mind this is just the base salary. If you're a resident and want to make more money you should probably just moonlight (just make sure your program allows it and you still don't go over the 80 hr/week limit). The moonlight hours are paid privately by the hospitals, so you are actually getting paid your market value. From another thread on SDN people say they were making about $80-120/hr, so you can (at least in theory) easily double or triple your salary by moonlighting 10-20 hrs a week on top of your normal resident responsibilities.

Also, the nurses that make as much as attendings are probably the more experienced ones and with more advanced training. For example, CRNAs make similar amounts as primary care physicians, but beyond the typical BSN they have to have 3 years of ICU work experience (which is usually done straight after getting the BSN and pays around $50-60k year for a typical 40 hr work week), plus another two years of school in CRNA program that leads to a masters level degree (and these CRNA programs don't have cheap tuition either and often requires taking out loans).

I agree that government funding for a stipend is the reason. Two different sources of pay. I would say that it seems to me like moonlighting has it's +s and -s, so you have to be careful there; but again different payor source is the issue.

There aren't many nurses making a much as attendings--unless you want to look at certain CNOs at certain medical centers and compare their salaries to primary care attendings.

NPs, well, it depends, but still not as much as most attendings in primary care--thank God. NPs in critical care are making half or less of what critical care attendings make. CRNAs are making ~ 35-45% of what ologists make.

 

[W19]

.

 

[NickNaylor]

In my residency paperwork, my official listed hourly wage (even though I'm salaried) is $27/hr, which assumes a 40-hour work week.

 

[jl lin]

In my residency paperwork, my official listed hourly wage (even though I'm salaried) is $27/hr, which assumes a 40-hour work week.

I don't remember if you said what your specialty is; but come on. Are you really working "40" hours? I seriously doubt it. Surprise me and say, "Yes."

 

[NickNaylor]

I don't remember if you said what your specialty is; but come on. Are you really working "40" hours? I seriously doubt it. Surprise me and say, "Yes."

If by "on duty and at the hospital," then, uh, yeah I would expect that I will be working more than 40 hours/week on average. I think 60 hours/week averaged over the course of the year is a reasonable estimate for my intern year, which puts me at $18/hr.

 

[jl lin]

If by "on duty and at the hospital," then, uh, yeah I would expect that I will be working more than 40 hours/week on average. I think 60 hours/week averaged over the course of the year is a reasonable estimate for my intern year, which puts me at $18/hr.

That's better than some people who are working into the 8o hour zone--in which case that's $12/hour--some go over that on the QT. Seriously, 60 hours isn't bad. The rate sucks but the hours aren't bad, if that is truly what you will be doing.
If there was no stipend, that would truly suck--just b/c life in general is costly--even when you are trying to live tight. Best wishes.

 

[Psai]

Jl lin mouthing off again about something he doesn't even know about. 60 hour weeks suck

 

[IlDestriero]

Jl lin mouthing off again about something he doesn't even know about. 60 hour weeks suck

If you say so. This is residency we're talking about here. 60 hrs a week is good. Many residencies and fellowships are pushing 80 all the time. That's a full 25% less hours.
I work about 50 hours a week. That's not bad. But I only work about 200 days a year, which is better.

 

[Psai]

Comparatively it is good but objectively it still sucks

 

[deleted393595]

Residents are not poor. Hell, not even close. Two resident couples have a 100k salary between them, a sum that is unfathomable to much of the country (go take a peek at average household incomes if you want to see where a two resident couple would fall, or at individual incomes for a single one). That isn't bad pay for people that are essentially a walking danger to their patients without attending oversight.

Er my gosh! They're making so much money! They have it so guuuuuddddd!

What? They work 160 hours a week between them? What difference does that make? They're still the top/elite/oppressive 1%

In my residency paperwork, my official listed hourly wage (even though I'm salaried) is $27/hr, which assumes a 40-hour work week.

1) Is there an option to be paid that amount in Bitcoin?
2) Is Bitcoin taxable?

 

[Mad Jack]

Er my gosh! They're making so much money! They have it so guuuuuddddd!

What? They work 160 hours a week between them? What difference does that make? They're still the top/elite/oppressive 1%

Name any couple in an educational program that cracks anything close to 100k while training.

 

[deleted393595]

Name any couple in an educational program that cracks anything close to 100k while training.

Two postdocs.

My point wasn't that the money is too high/low. It's that we shouldn't be attacking someone for making the amount that they do - as long as they earned it justly.

 

[Kaustikos]

I don't remember if you said what your specialty is; but come on. Are you really working "40" hours? I seriously doubt it. Surprise me and say, "Yes."

... I don't even

If by "on duty and at the hospital," then, uh, yeah I would expect that I will be working more than 40 hours/week on average. I think 60 hours/week averaged over the course of the year is a reasonable estimate for my intern year, which puts me at $18/hr.

I'm surprised you even responded lol

 

[jl lin]

... I don't even


I'm surprised you even responded lol

You don't even what...? And why would you make the above comments?

Seriously?

Wait. Got it. Chiming in w/ the hate club. Lame.

 

[DubVille]

Name any couple in an educational program that cracks anything close to 100k while training.

I feel it is more residency dependent. In my small field (rehab) residents are always in house in the evenings and overnight. On weekdays we take the later admits so attendings and inpatient residents can roll at 4. Weekends we write up H&P/consults and cover any issues for 40 (usually stable) patients, so that attenidngs can roll in for 2-3 hours after cosigning and laying an eye on the patient. We also cover call for outpatient docs on nights/weekends(again usually a very low call volume).
I'd assume the amount of money we save by covering nights/weekends helps get back some $$ when we slow things down in fluoro, offices, emg, etc. We probably still cost money (seniors costing the most since they take no call) but I'm not sure we are an enormous burden on the department. I feel we are being used to "work" a job covering to compensate for our "training." I view residency as a mix of both.

 

[W19]

If you say so. This is residency we're talking about here. 60 hrs a week is good. Many residencies and fellowships are pushing 80 all the time. That's a full 25% less hours.
I work about 50 hours a week. That's not bad. But I only work about 200 days a year, which is better.

What! You have about 3 months paid time off ... Do you work for the government?

 

[IlDestriero]

No. I'm in the ivory tower man.
Some jobs are good, some are great.
I scored a great one.
But I worked hard to get here, to not work very hard, and still get paid well.
And there is logic in working hard for a few years to not work hard for a few decades.

 

[Microshaft]

No fool manager is paying anyone time and a half for a job that requires no education. They don't even want full time people at Walmart, etc as they would have to offer them benefits, etc.
Google that. You'll be shocked and appalled. One of the most profitable companies in history with many multi billionaire family owners and stores filled with cheap part time labor and a handful of full time managers.
Joe HS dropout would be lucky to get 2 25 hour jobs at minimum wage, and no benefits at all.

yeah pretty much
all just to cut down on their cost of goods sold to turn a slightly higher net profit

**** this world

 

[Perrotfish]

Who is paying the extra 20-50k a year?
Where is that salary increase coming from?
Be happy you're getting 50k.

The entire residents salary (including the first 50K) should be paid by the hospital that employs, and profits from, the resident. The appropriate salary should be negotiated between the hospital and the resident. Since some residents are dramatically better (worth more) than others those residents should be paid dramatically more than others.

Every other industry has entry level employees that are still half trainees. Engineering, law, military, nursing, whatever: no one really knows what they're doing when they start. There is no earthly reason why medicine needs to be the only industry that's allowed to use the illusion of 'formal' training to limit the salaries of their entry level employees. Or to stop entry level employees from switching jobs. Or to ensure that entry level employees can only be promoted in lockstep with one another. And there is certainly no reason why the government should have any part in either funding or regulating these positions.

 

[NickNaylor]

1) Is there an option to be paid that amount in Bitcoin?
2) Is Bitcoin taxable?

Bitcoin is not a currency. I have no idea why you would want to be paid with an item that can fluctuate wildly. And of course it's taxable. Your income doesn't suddenly become non-taxable because it isn't denominated in dollars.

 

[deleted480308]

Bitcoin is not a currency. I have no idea why you would want to be paid with an item that can fluctuate wildly. And of course it's taxable. Your income doesn't suddenly become non-taxable because it isn't denominated in dollars.

Most of the bitcoin crowd isn't really into reporting income although it is absolutely required to report the cash value of all income.

 

[Gastrapathy]

We've talked about this before but residents and fellows in many specialties would work for free.

 

[Perrotfish]

We've talked about this before but residents and fellows in many specialties would work for free.

If you were right:

1) Then everyone would be relieved when residents called in sick. They're dead weight, right? So there would be no panic at all when someone couldn't be there. Certainly no need for anything as cumbersome as a back up call system, since residents only add to the attending's workload.

2) Then no one would hire midlevels. After all, if you don't need a medical school graduate to help with the work, someone with just a masters degree trying to do the exact same job must be REALLY useless, right?

3) Then residents and fellows should still be in school. Lets say you're right, and finishing medical school doesn't qualify you for an entry level job in Medicine. You have accumulated 0 dollars worth of skill in all those years of study. To me, that means that you're not done being a student yet, and its no one else's job to subsidize your continued training. If that's the case residency should just be more paid school, with more student loans. Of course, if that were the case I think we would need to seriously examine whether there might be a better, shorter model of medical education.

 

[Gastrapathy]

So you really don't think that every ENT, Derm and Ortho residency would fill for free? Might not get the same people, but they'd get someone. You don't think I would have done my GI Fellowship for free? In a free market, the salaries would also be affected by the desirability of a location far more than they are. Residency is not an entry level job, its an apprenticeship.

As for whether residents add to or decrease the attending's workload, I think it depends and I've worked in both settings. Wait until you are seeing consults on your own in a couple of weeks. You'll be stunned at how easy it is to just take care of patients without all the talking. You won't believe how much the nurses protect you when they know they are calling a staff instead of a resident. Its much better.

I've spent enough time watching fellows inspect every cell in the sigmoid on their way to the cecum to know the cost. And, I don't really benefit from getting them faster because the next round of slow pokes shows up exactly 1 year later. I like teaching but I would see more patients without it. In my practice, teaching is definitely a net-loss of productivity. I'm in favor of paying trainees. We need to support them through this phase of their lives because medical education is such a long road. But I'm not making a dime off their backs.

 

[IlDestriero]

As noted above residency is an apprenticeship.

 

[deleted307836]

Why would you care what nurses make as a resident?

If residents were paid more than nurses on an hourly basis, resident salary would triple in some cases. GME funds are already under fire. Discussions like this seem rather pointless.

 

[Kaustikos]

Why would you care what nurses make as a resident?

If residents were paid more than nurses on an hourly basis, resident salary would triple in some cases. GME funds are already under fire. Discussions like this seem rather pointless.

Plus, I'd just keep being a Resident and deferring loan repayment until I felt like paying it back lol
Totes kidding

 

[deleted393595]

I have no idea why you would want to be paid with an item that can fluctuate wildly. And of course it's taxable. Your income doesn't suddenly become non-taxable because it isn't denominated in dollars.

I want to keep my income hidden from the US govt so they can't seize it when the currency crisis happens. /s Also, I want to minimize my taxes

 

[IlDestriero]

Trainings going to get me 9/10 of the way there for PSLF...so...yeah...at least I got that going for me

Until they smarten up and don't count residency as creditable service for PSLF.
Should you really get public service credit for being a resident and/or fellow at a university hospital?
Probably not what they intended to give public service forgiveness for.
I wouldn't bet the farm on it being there.

 

[Kaustikos]

If they're gonna offer it, I'm gonna take it. I'm in training for that length of time either way.

I'm far enough in to have more than a little hope at this point though. All discussions thus far have indicated that while cuts to PSLF are coming, the folks who've been putting in their time for it already will be grandfathered.

Yeah,
It's us newcomers that worry. And now they throw in this physician loan for houses? I'm thinking someone set us up the bomb.

 

[Docbeme]

This thread, IMO, depicts much of what is wrong with physicians, to say nothing of the system itself which treats residents like third class citizens or worse.

There are so many posts here that show a willingness, and in some cases almost a sense of joy, for residents to be treated like garbage, you wonder why some see the future of physicians very negatively. How can someone who went to four years of college, four years of medical school and a residency of from three to roughly nine years in the case of some surgeons, accept being paid an amount equal to half of what an NP is paid where the NP works a 40 hour week? That is nonsensical. As a culture, we would go crazy if someone were working 80 hours a week making sneakers in a third world country, but it's OK for those of us that went to college and med school and are now treating patients?

Even worse, the institutions are all complicit in this behavior. They are exempt from anti-trust suits due to a law that exempts hospitals from being sued for collusion. http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...n_training_are_organizing_for_collective.html

Many physicians don't finish their training until their early or even mid-30's. By that time, many of them have children. Even for couples where both spouses are residents, with the costs of day care being what it is, to say nothing of housing costs, it's tough for many families to squeak by without incurring debt (more debt). And make no mistake, while interns are neophytes that require hand holding, within a very short period of time, you are doing real work, which only grows in scope as training progresses. The hospital is making lots of money from your labor and putting it in its own pocket. That you may make a good wage after you finish training does not mitigate the financial abuse that residents endure during their training. It is time for this abuse to end.

 

[W19]

It's a strange system... The same hospitals that are paying resident $13-15/hr on average also pay them $100-150/hr to moonlight...

 

[Mjolner]

I want to keep my income hidden from the US govt so they can't seize it when the currency crisis happens. /s Also, I want to minimize my taxes

Alternatively, you could be paid in tin foil hats. Sounds like you might need some.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yeah,
It's us newcomers that worry. And now they throw in this physician loan for houses? I'm thinking someone set us up the bomb.

What are you getting at with respect to physician mortgages?

 

[samac]

This thread, IMO, depicts much of what is wrong with physicians, to say nothing of the system itself which treats residents like third class citizens or worse.

There are so many posts here that show a willingness, and in some cases almost a sense of joy, for residents to be treated like garbage, you wonder why some see the future of physicians very negatively. How can someone who went to four years of college, four years of medical school and a residency of from three to roughly nine years in the case of some surgeons, accept being paid an amount equal to half of what an NP is paid where the NP works a 40 hour week? That is nonsensical. As a culture, we would go crazy if someone were working 80 hours a week making sneakers in a third world country, but it's OK for those of us that went to college and med school and are now treating patients?

Even worse, the institutions are all complicit in this behavior. They are exempt from anti-trust suits due to a law that exempts hospitals from being sued for collusion. http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...n_training_are_organizing_for_collective.html

Many physicians don't finish their training until their early or even mid-30's. By that time, many of them have children. Even for couples where both spouses are residents, with the costs of day care being what it is, to say nothing of housing costs, it's tough for many families to squeak by without incurring debt (more debt). And make no mistake, while interns are neophytes that require hand holding, within a very short period of time, you are doing real work, which only grows in scope as training progresses. The hospital is making lots of money from your labor and putting it in its own pocket. That you may make a good wage after you finish training does not mitigate the financial abuse that residents endure during their training. It is time for this abuse to end.

Ok, but you do realize we're being paid to learn right? Fresh out of med school we could easily kill someone and they're taking extra time to train us. Those nurses are done training.
And if you think it's not possible for a couple of residents to afford child care without taking on more debt making 50k each you have some serious lifestyle choice you need to think about.

 

[Docbeme]

Ok, but you do realize we're being paid to learn right? Fresh out of med school we could easily kill someone and they're taking extra time to train us. Those nurses are done training.
And if you think it's not possible for a couple of residents to afford child care without taking on more debt making 50k each you have some serious lifestyle choice you need to think about.

With all due respect, you are living in a fantasy world with respect to training and the costs of living in many cities. Are new residents carefully supervised and receive considerable instruction? Absolutely. There is a reason why people suggest that if you plan on elective surgery that you not check in to teaching hospitals on July 1, because of new residents. By January 1, and certainly by the end of year 1, an awful lot of basic information has been acquired. I am in a highly respected surgery program and it will be many years before I am unleashed upon an unsuspecting world, but by my fourth year, I will be doing a ton of supervisory work and will have assisted on many hundreds of surgeries with an attending starting with my first year and gaining more and more momentum with each year that ensues. You may be under the tutelage of an attending or fellow, but your basic set of technical skills grows quickly and, in most settings, the surgery will be done by two docs or a doc and a highly skilled assistant making much more than a resident is paid but without anything that is close to the resident's training and knowledge base.

Think about this.....let's assume you are in your last few months of residency or fellowship. In a few months, you will be working in a private or academic environment where, in many surgical areas, your wages may be five to ten times what you are being paid as a resident. Do you believe that in a brief period of time, a month or two, your earning potential grows exponentially? The reality of the situation is that you are being used to make money for the hospital and there is no Plan "B". Hospitals collude with each other as to what you receive. That is an antitrust violation in all other areas of commerce except medicine. From my perspective, that is simply wrong and needs to be made right.

 

[Mad Jack]

With all due respect, you are living in a fantasy world with respect to training and the costs of living in many cities. Are new residents carefully supervised and receive considerable instruction? Absolutely. There is a reason why people suggest that if you plan on elective surgery that you not check in to teaching hospitals on July 1, because of new residents. By January 1, and certainly by the end of year 1, an awful lot of basic information has been acquired. I am in a highly respected surgery program and it will be many years before I am unleashed upon an unsuspecting world, but by my fourth year, I will be doing a ton of supervisory work and will have assisted on many hundreds of surgeries with an attending starting with my first year and gaining more and more momentum with each year that ensues. You may be under the tutelage of an attending or fellow, but your basic set of technical skills grows quickly and, in most settings, the surgery will be done by two docs or a doc and a highly skilled assistant making much more than a resident is paid but without anything that is close to the resident's training and knowledge base.

Think about this.....let's assume you are in your last few months of residency or fellowship. In a few months, you will be working in a private or academic environment where, in many surgical areas, your wages may be five to ten times what you are being paid as a resident. Do you believe that in a brief period of time, a month or two, your earning potential grows exponentially? The reality of the situation is that you are being used to make money for the hospital and there is no Plan "B". Hospitals collude with each other as to what you receive. That is an antitrust violation in all other areas of commerce except medicine. From my perspective, that is simply wrong and needs to be made right.

That's like complaining that an engineering intern that is a month from finishing their degree is being underpaid because in one month they'll have a job in which they're earning five times as much. We don't have an incremental training system, we have one that is stepwise in fashion- you can be 99% of the way done with any degree or training in ANY field and it is worthless unless you finish that last 1%. That isn't just medicine, that's the way educational and vocational training works in the modern world.

 

[Mad Jack]

Also, please name other areas in which people make more than us for postgraduate training? Dentists, for example, have to pay for most of their competitive residencies. They
aren't getting a salary, they've got tuition. Many other fields offer minimal compensation or none at all. Physicians used to only be given room and board and were expected to work 120 hours per week for free.

The only thing I really wish we got was subsidized loan interest during training. Other than that, the pay and benefits are relatively competitive with many other fields that undergo postgraduate training.

 

[cbrons]

Ok, but you do realize we're being paid to learn right? Fresh out of med school we could easily kill someone and they're taking extra time to train us. Those nurses are done training.
And if you think it's not possible for a couple of residents to afford child care without taking on more debt making 50k each you have some serious lifestyle choice you need to think about.

So you don't have children. Daycare costs thousands per year. "They're taking extra time to train us" lol

 

[cbrons]

Hospitals collude with each other as to what you receive. That is an antitrust violation in all other areas of commerce except medicine.

That is because the corrupt pigs called Congress exempted GME from antitrust laws

 

[WingedOx]

Also, please name other areas in which people make more than us for postgraduate training? Dentists, for example, have to pay for most of their competitive residencies. They
aren't getting a salary, they've got tuition. Many other fields offer minimal compensation or none at all. Physicians used to only be given room and board and were expected to work 120 hours per week for free.

The only thing I really wish we got was subsidized loan interest during training. Other than that, the pay and benefits are relatively competitive with many other fields that undergo postgraduate training.

Full disclosure that my debt is less than many will have or have had (My 4th year was paid-for, but it would have been about the same had I stayed at my state school), but as I said yesterday in one of the pre-allo threads, with IBR, it's not like I was living in squalor and poverty during residency.

 

[deleted393595]

Alternatively, you could be paid in tin foil hats. Sounds like you might need some.

If you look closely at my post that you quoted, you'll a /s tag, which indicates sarcasm.

Since you don't know how it works, here are a few examples:

"Mjolner is very smart cookie" /s
"Mjolner is definitely does not have the reading comprehension of a 3 year old" /s
"Mjolner definitely does not have self-esteem problems because his parents gave him no love" /s

That is because the corrupt pigs called Congress exempted GME from antitrust laws

Ah Sen. Ted Kennedy (who sponsored the bill to exempt GME from anti-trust laws): The gift that keeps on giving back.

My problem isn't with the residency pay - it's that we are forced to accept residency program terms at essentially gunpoint. Why can't we choose our residencies like we do with med school?

 

[samac]

So you don't have children. Daycare costs thousands per year. "They're taking extra time to train us" lol

I'm not saying they're taking extra time to train us, I'm saying were getting paid to be trained.
I don't have kids, but let's say $900 a month/child for childcare at 2 kids.
Let's say rent is $1000.
33,600 for absolute basic expenses.
Let's say you're each paying 200/month towards loans. That's $4,800.
$200 food a week. That's $10,400.
I've used one person in the house's salary.
There's still another $50k there.
If 2 people, even with 2 kids, can't live off of 100k you're doing it very wrong.

 

[deleted393595]

I'm not saying they're taking extra time to train us, I'm saying were getting paid to be trained.
I don't have kids, but let's say $900 a month/child for childcare at 2 kids.
Let's say rent is $1000.
33,600 for absolute basic expenses.
Let's say you're each paying 200/month towards loans. That's $4,800.
$200 food a week. That's $10,400.
I've used one person in the house's salary.
There's still another $50k there.
If 2 people, even with 2 kids, can't live off of 100k you're doing it very wrong.

Your mindset is going to drastically change once you go into residency.

Also, please name other areas in which people make more than us for postgraduate training? Dentists, for example, have to pay for most of their competitive residencies. They
aren't getting a salary, they've got tuition. Many other fields offer minimal compensation or none at all. Physicians used to only be given room and board and were expected to work 120 hours per week for free.

The only thing I really wish we got was subsidized loan interest during training. Other than that, the pay and benefits are relatively competitive with many other fields that undergo postgraduate training.

Name one other profession which is so willing to screw itself over and shoot itself in the foot. I frankly don't understand the subservience that med students/most residents have towards the current structure of GME. In which other profession do people complain that they're making "too much"?

 

[Mad Jack]

Your mindset is going to drastically change once you go into residency.



Name one other profession which is so willing to screw itself over and shoot itself in the foot. I frankly don't understand the subservience that med students/most residents have towards the current structure of GME. In which other profession do people complain that they're making "too much"?

My point is that we're not being screwed over. We've actually got it pretty good compared to everyone else that's in postgraduate training.

As to "your mindset is going to drastically change," I used to live on far less than that. Here's the average US household budget:

Average Household Budget in the U.S.
The average income in the U.S., by household, was $63,784 in 2013, according to the Consumer Expenditure Survey conducted by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Here’s how the average household budget breaks down:

Expenditure Category Annual Average Cost % of Budget
Housing $10,080 16%
Transportation 9,004 14%
Taxes 7,432 12%
Utilities and Other Household Operational Costs 7,068 11%
Food 6,602 10%
Social Security Contributions, Personal Insurance and Pensions 5,528 9%
Debt Payments or Savings 5,252 8%
Healthcare 3,631 6%
Entertainment 2,564 4%
Cash Contributions 1,834 3%
Apparel and Services 1,604 3%
Education 1,138 2%
Vices 775 1%
Miscellaneous 664 1%
Personal Care 608 1%
TOTAL 63,784 100%

The average residency in my area starts pay at 55k a year for an intern. With two working in the household, you can certainly live a normal, middle-class life until you finish residency.