Nurses making more than residents?

[DOFOSHO]

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[IlDestriero]

Actually, I would start as the same rank CPT, but I would only make a little more for prior service enlisted time. Not much though. It still is a good deal though... If you don't like it after 4 years you could get out. At least you wouldn't be paying 25 years on student loans and interest.

I was referring to your good deal for retirement vs someone with no creditable service who would have to be in for 20 years or switch to the reserves. And I did get out at the end of my commitment, as almost everyone does.
Just to be clear, anyone going into a highly compensated field will almost certainly lose money by accepting the HPSP money. I had a 3 year deal and I lost money. The only way it worked out for me was that I bought into a housing bubble and sold at the top of the market several years later when I got out, though I probably could have bought it anyway as my wife had a good job, so I really shouldn't count that windfall. The group of physicians going into those fields should not need more than 10 years to pay off their loans.

 

[slopes23]

But I remember "you" specifically writing in your AMCAS essay you weren't getting into medicine for the money. You said it was a calling, passion, yada yada yada..... Something about wanting to help people.

Hahhhh!!! Marry me. (For reference go to 7:25)

 

[Mad Jack]

yeah....i'm aware of that. but that also strengthens the point i was making which is: there are people at burger king who get a second job at taco bell AND, unlike a resident, double their pay.

Wouldn't it be cool if the government reallocated money from the able bodied/minded people who don't work and add it to residency salaries?

And a lot of residencies afford moonlighting opportunities that can double your income. And there are nurses I work with that legititimately outearn attending physicians care of overtime pay (CRNAs are OT eligible and start at 75/hr, for instance, with raise potential bringing them to 95/hr base eventually). Who cares? You're getting paid to train rather than paying to train, that's awesome enough for me. How can we justify the government forking over billions more to train the residents we have, rather than doing the prudent thing and training more physicians via more residency positions?

 

[slopes23]

And a lot of residencies afford moonlighting opportunities that can double your income. And there are nurses I work with that legititimately outearn attending physicians care of overtime pay (CRNAs are OT eligible and start at 75/hr, for instance, with raise potential bringing them to 95/hr base eventually). Who cares? You're getting paid to train rather than paying to train, that's awesome enough for me. How can we justify the government forking over billions more to train the residents we have, rather than doing the prudent thing and training more physicians via more residency positions?

Because if we take your suggestion to its logical conclusion you get a world you don't want to live in.

Follow me here: More residency spots->more physicians->lower overall yearly compensation due to increased supply->more people bitching on SDN. Don't give more people a reason to bitch on SDN.

 

[Mad Jack]

Because if we take your suggestion to its logical conclusion you get a world you don't want to live in.

Follow me here: More residency spots->more physicians->lower overall yearly compensation due to increased supply->more people bitching on SDN. Don't give more people a reason to bitch on SDN.

I'm not talking about a massive expansion- just a few extra PCP spots in FM, OB, community IM, and psych, areas that the majority of US grads don't give a damn about. Though supply has never been what determined the price of physician services to begin with.

I don't think I've heard one good argument on here to justify why what is essentially a student should be paid substantially more though. Who cares what you're a student of, you're a student.

 

[slopes23]

I would argue supply have somewhat of a role to play but it's certainly not the only one. Also I think it's silly for example that fellowships still get paid on a PGY scale...I am sure many people would be in support of keeping the same starting pay but increasing the mandated raise amounts, instead of having a 2-4k raise per year, make it a 7-10k raise per year. By PGY 4 for example on the low end you make 78k all the way up to 90k. Seems more in line with the level of contribution a PGY4 provides....

 

[Mad Jack]

its all relative. if minimum wage increased to $15/hour that will become the new poverty line. and if resident salary doesn't increase, the gap will become narrower. there will always be poverty, and skilled jobs shouldn't be skimming the poverty line.

It isn't relative, unless the price of goods and services increases with the minimum wage (both of which will never happen, so let's just forget about that to begin with). Poverty isn't a relative thing- it is the inability to afford food and a roof over your head. Residents are hardly starving, and they won't suddenly become so if the poor are a little less poor. Which won't happen anyways, because republican house and Senate, plus likely the presidency at this rate.

Residents are not poor. Hell, not even close. Two resident couples have a 100k salary between them, a sum that is unfathomable to much of the country (go take a peek at average household incomes if you want to see where a two resident couple would fall, or at individual incomes for a single one). That isn't bad pay for people that are essentially a walking danger to their patients without attending oversight.

 

[slopes23]

Residents are not poor. Hell, not even close. Two resident couples have a 100k salary between them, a sum that is unfathomable to much of the country (go take a peek at average household incomes if you want to see where a two resident couple would fall, or at individual incomes for a single one). That isn't bad pay for people that are essentially a walking danger to their patients without attending oversight.

Residents are hardly a walking danger without oversight. Perhaps in the first couple of years sure, but don't tell me that a senior resident needs a hand holding 24/7. If a resident can perform a surgery without attending supervision then I think it's safe to assume they aren't a ticking time bomb.

Also it's a little simplistic to just say 2 married residents have a 100k salary combined which is an unfathomable number. For one, for most household incomes it's not that much higher above median, additionally, the sacrifices it takes to be in that kind of relationship are likely unfathomable too. Both are working 80hrs/wk, hardly ever get to see your spouse, when you do you are both exhausted, and because of the time constraints you likely have to continue to put off parenthood.

I would say that type of relationship is equally "unfathomable" to people dreaming to make 100k per year on a coupled income.

 

[slopes23]

That's more than a little melodramatic.

Agree, was just keeping my response in the same tone as the post I quoted however. Compare apples with apples.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[Mad Jack]

you're absolutely correct. and I'm not saying they are poor. but if the poverty line increases and goods/services become more expensive and resident salary remains the same then the gap between poverty and resident salary diminishes. go through that cycle a couple more times and you'll eliminate the gap, ie, welcome to socialism.

the guy working 2 or 3 part time unskilled jobs totalling 70 hrs/week makes 50K. and the resident working 70 hrs/week makes 50K. they both will pay the same for goods/services. Should it be like that?

Yes, it should. Residency is more training position than job, who else makes 50k a year to train?

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[IlDestriero]

are you suggesting that patients/insurance/medicare/medicaid are not billed for work performed by residents?

Residents don't bill for anything, your attending does. Are you suggesting that they should give you some of their pay? They're already likely taking a pay cut compared to private practice to have the privilege of training you. If you wanted a share of their billing, I think you'd find a lot more PAs and NPs and a lot fewer residents.
Many residencies in other fields come with a tuition bill, not a stipend.

 

[Mad Jack]

are you suggesting that patients/insurance/medicare/medicaid are not billed for work performed by residents?

Residents can't bill for anything. They are a drain on hospital resources, and training then already costs a fortune.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[deleted480308]

Actually, I would start as the same rank CPT, but I would only make a little more for prior service enlisted time. Not much though. It still is a good deal though... If you don't like it after 4 years you could get out. At least you wouldn't be paying 25 years on student loans and interest.

The largest benefit for you is that hpsp when you enter with 14yrs would have the effect of boosting those 14 to rank major by the time you got out with only giving up the lost civilian salary surplus for 4.

If you had the gibill left over or had earned some private acholarships or went to a cheap school, you should look the navy hscp which pays you e6-7 while in school and allows your retirment clock to keep ticking the whole time. You'd retire 4 years into practice with 25yrs depending on residency length

 

[deleted480308]

oh. well i still stand by my original point which was that residents' should get paid more than a 19-year-old working at burger king.

Apples and oranges....we're in pay to play mode. Residency is nothin more than opportunity cost

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[Mad Jack]

oh. well i still stand by my original point which was that residents' should get paid more than a 19-year-old working at burger king.

For what? Doing the procesures less efficiently than the attending that oversees them at a far less efficient rate so they can learn? That's a net negative for hospitals, period. They get paid enough, and make more than a kid at Burger King as-is.

 

[Mad Jack]

ok...if minimum wage increases to $15/hr, a person could work at minimum wage for the same number of hours as a resident and make more money per year. $15/hour x 70hours/week x 50weeks/year = $52,500/year....that number is not far from resident salary.

And this will never, ever happen, so what's your point? I mean, you're saying that resident salaries aren't as good as some liberal nonsense about the minimum wage that will never, ever materialize, thus your whole argument is quite meaningless.

 

[W19]

I think that residency programs should supplement residents' salary.... I think all residents should start at 70k/year and get a 10k raise every year. So a PGY5 should be paid 110k/year...

 

[Rogert]

I think that residency programs should supplement residents' salary.... I think all residents should start at 70k/year and get a 10k raise every year. So a PGY5 should be paid 110k/year...

You saw part where residents are basically a money losing venture right? Why on earth would anyone pay them more?

 

[kehlsh]

Residency is a modern version of slavery

 

[W19]

You saw part where residents are basically a money losing venture right? Why on earth would anyone pay them more?

I have seen multiple studies that said that residency add to hospital bottom line...

 

[NicMouse64]

I don't mind helping the poor and hungry with decent nourishment. I do resent paying for their cigs, booze, and lottery tickets while they throw in a bag of chips for their kids' dinner. Seen this more than once--and this is in stores that were NOT food deserts.

AHH YES. Jesus would also love the demonizing of the poor. The problem with the assumption that the poor "steal" from people those that are hardworking is that there are VERY few reported cases of wellfare fraud/abuse of the system. I have seen the same malignancies of people on the system, but don't define the whole by the actions of a few. Many people need those programs to survive, and as the richest country on the planet I think we should be able to afford those that work hard but don't quite have enough money. Maybe that means less military funding. GASP.

 

[W19]

Cite them.

Don't have the time to look for them now. Will do later.

 

[W19]

Cite them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9706911

This is one regarding anesthesiology residency... I can find others etc...

 

[NicMouse64]

This.

This many times over.

I get irritated when parents bring in their kids for asthma exacerbations and they say they can't afford an albuterol inhaler. But both parents smoke a pack of cigarettes per day. Not only are they exacerbating their kid's condition, but they're also prioritizing their cigarettes over their kid's medicine.

I am sure because of the nature of your job and the socioeconomics you see the bad cases. I would like to offer a counterpoint. I used to work in a grocery store in a rich suburb. The amount of people on food stamps that came through my store was probably 25-40%. The thing was many of these people bought healthy foods and told their children that they couldnt have that candy or some other healthy options. No one really noticed that they were on food stamps because they fit into our society. But once a person carries a pack of cigarettes/booze everyone puts on their judgement caps. Then we notice they are poor and on government assistance. Then we make a sweeping generalization about the poor that is not all encompassing. It's quite a shame this concept is so deeply engrained into our culture.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[NicMouse64]

it will happ


its very many, my friend. I guess you agree with the saying: "to him according to his need, from him according to his ability?"

http://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html. 8%, so let the other 92% suffer. Makes sense.

 

[Mad Jack]

it will happ


its very many, my friend. I guess you agree with the saying: "to him according to his need, from him according to his ability?"

How is it going to happen with a Republican House and Senate, lol? That's just nonsense. Thus, your whole argument about resident salaries is nonsense.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[Mad Jack]

its not nonsense. i already said its not going to happen tomorrow. but it could happen gradually. and we are not going to have a republican house/senate forever.

And we won't have a set salary for residents forever either. Resident salaries have kept pace with inflation for 40 years. If inflation occurs care of a rise in minimum wage, resident salaries will likely increase as they always have to compensate.

 

[Mad Jack]

its not nonsense. i already said its not going to happen tomorrow. but it could happen gradually. and we are not going to have a republican house/senate forever. all that needs to happen is for a crazy lady to be elected president, congress to flip parties, get a couple more liberal justices and you'll see the country change in ways that today you say "are impossible/that will never happen/ridiculous". don't be so naive.

This isn't the place for political fear mongering. We aren't discussing politics and how they might play out. This thread is simply about whether nurse salaries and resident salaries are properly aligned, which they are. If you want to talk politics, I suggest you go to the SPF- this isn't the place for it.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[W19]

its not nonsense. i already said its not going to happen tomorrow. but it could happen gradually. and we are not going to have a republican house/senate forever. all that needs to happen is for a crazy lady to be elected president, congress to flip parties, get a couple more liberal justices and you'll see the country change in ways that today you say "are impossible/that will never happen/ridiculous". don't be so naive.

Are you FOX NEWS?

 

[Mad Jack]

lol you're the one who brought up house/senate/etc, not me.

Just to state that your point has no bearing on whether resident salaries, as they stand today, are fair or not. You have residents, medical students, and attendings that all have basically unanimously agreed that salaries are fair for the position, and your only argument relies on a political "what if." Right now, in the real, non-hypothetical world, how do you feel about resident salaries?

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[PikminOC]

This.

This many times over.

I get irritated when parents bring in their kids for asthma exacerbations and they say they can't afford an albuterol inhaler. But both parents smoke a pack of cigarettes per day. Not only are they exacerbating their kid's condition, but they're also prioritizing their cigarettes over their kid's medicine.

President's smoking more likely to cause daughter's health problem than climate change.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...-global-warming-obama-asthma-column/25529419/
President Obama blames global warming for his daughter's asthma. Today that's politically useful spin, but the science says something different. If you're looking for a culprit, it just might be Malia's dad.
In an interview Wednesday, in support of a new White House climate change awareness campaign, the president noted that his 16-year-old daughter had asthma when she was 4. He said that as a father, when your child says she has trouble breathing, "the fright you feel is terrible." Fortunately, doctors were able to treat Malia's condition quickly.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think they are fair currently. But - I've heard a lot of talk about increasing minimum wage and I've heard a lot of talk about decreasing/eliminating resident salaries. And if that were to ever happen, IMHO, that would be unfair.

We can talk about that when the time comes and ramifications materialize, and I'm sure many of us would agree with you if significant inflation rapidly ate away at resident salaries. If you'd like to talk about potential minimum wage increases, I would strongly encourage you to check out the SPF subforum of the lounge- you will no doubt get an excellent discussion out of it. But such a topic here will no doubt lead to the thread going off the rails and getting locked. It's not that I don't believe your topic is worth discussing, I'm just trying to preserve this thread and keep it on track is all.

 

[Goro]

You've never been a post-doctoral fellow then?

Residency is a modern version of slavery

 

[mmmcdowe]

Physicians used to pay hospitLs for the privalege to be a resident

 

[deleted480308]

AHH YES. Jesus would also love the demonizing of the poor. The problem with the assumption that the poor "steal" from people those that are hardworking is that there are VERY few reported cases of wellfare fraud/abuse of the system. I have seen the same malignancies of people on the system, but don't define the whole by the actions of a few. Many people need those programs to survive, and as the richest country on the planet I think we should be able to afford those that work hard but don't quite have enough money. Maybe that means less military funding. GASP.

it's not what they use it for that makes it theft, it's the fact that the money is not given voluntarily

 

[Doctor Bob]

I am sure because of the nature of your job and the socioeconomics you see the bad cases. I would like to offer a counterpoint. I used to work in a grocery store in a rich suburb. The amount of people on food stamps that came through my store was probably 25-40%. The thing was many of these people bought healthy foods and told their children that they couldnt have that candy or some other healthy options. No one really noticed that they were on food stamps because they fit into our society. But once a person carries a pack of cigarettes/booze everyone puts on their judgement caps. Then we notice they are poor and on government assistance. Then we make a sweeping generalization about the poor that is not all encompassing. It's quite a shame this concept is so deeply engrained into our culture.

Rich, poor, there are very few people who don't have to make prioritization decisions when it comes to finances.
Certainly those decisions are easier as you move up the prosperity ladder.
I am well enough off (although I took a financial step back to go to fellowship, but I digress), but when my kids need medicine or something along those lines, I delay purchasing something else.
My concern is the financial prioritization of cigarettes over medicine.
If the choice is medicine over food... I can appreciate the trouble. Cigarettes, while an addiction, are still not a necessity, and only serve to make your asthmatic kid sicker.

 

[IlDestriero]

I think that residency programs should supplement residents' salary.... I think all residents should start at 70k/year and get a 10k raise every year. So a PGY5 should be paid 110k/year...

Who is paying the extra 20-50k a year?
Where is that salary increase coming from?
Be happy you're getting 50k.