NPs and PA students greatly outnumber med students now

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You feed the cycle. Sure, patients can read and so on, but they might not know the distinction between a PA and a doctor. When they say "thanks doc" perhaps you should clear that up... given that you've got more than 20 years of experience and probably do a good job, this would only help your profession. Patients would think to themselves, "wow, this physician assistant has provided me with great care, despite the fact that he is not a physician" and you'd build the trust for your midlevel colleagues.
I clear it up when pts ask but it would get kind of old 30 times a day to spend 5 minutes explaining my cv"
hi, my name is emedpa, I am a physician assistant not a dr. that means I have 2 yrs of post college medical training in the medical model in addition to prior training and experience as a paramedic.I spent 9 yrs of my life in school instead of the 11 spent by a typical physician. I have post grad experience through an emergency medicine fellowship but it was only 1 yr not 3 so I am not a residency trained board certiffied emergencny physician. I can see you independently today and oversee your entire visit here including write you a prescription of any kind with my own dea # but 10 % of my charts will be reviewed with a physician within 1 month. I am the only provider here tonight so if you want a dr you can sign out ama and drive to the nearest hospital to which I can provide you directions and a map if you are not comfortable seeing someone who is not a dr.
now, tell me about your chest pain.....
see how that would not be conducive to delivering efficient care?

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So very true, but in my experience working as a PA before I went to medical school, I wore a lab coat with my name and "PA-C" embroidered on it, a name badge with my name and "PA-C" and "physician assistant" written out below that, always introduced myself as "Bitsy 3221, the PA (or physician assistant)" and proceeded along my exam/procedure/etc. After all was said and done, about a third said "thanks, Bitsy", a third said "thanks, doc" and a third said "thanks, nurse"

I would often correct them one way or another, but really there is only so much I can do.

Any female docs/med students in here ever get called nurse????

agree- pts also need to be able to catch obvious things like nametags that say john smith, pa-c and introductions like " hi, I'm john, one of the pa's here"..I agree about the nurse and have told my nurses to either refer to me as a pa or provider, never a dr. they tend to say provider because at least on day shift, we are double covered with 1 md and 1 pa and the nurse doesn't now who will pick up the chart next so "provider" covers both of us. when I work alone at night they say, emedpa, our pa will be in to see you.

I know we all wear nametags (or, at least, we should be), but it is not a substitute for an introduction. Nametag/coat labels are easy to miss and what if your pt can't read or can't read well enough to understand 'physician assistant' or 'nurse practitioner'?

Pts do need to be held accountable, but it is still our job as providers to introduce ourselves appropriately. In the case above, that did not happen. Mid-levels are still are a recent phenomenon and much of the general public is only familiar with the nurse-doctor dichotomy. Without an appropriate intro, you take away the patient's opportunity to educate themselves or to opt out of your care.
 
Oh Bitsy I forgot...

I'm a female med student. And, yes, I do get called 'nurse' despite the nametag and the intro. But, the same thing happened when I was a tech before med school.

And I agree there is only so much you can do.
 
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I clear it up when pts ask but it would get kind of old 30 times a day to spend 5 minutes explaining my cv"
hi, my name is emedpa, I am a physician assistant not a dr. that means I have 2 yrs of post college medical training in the medical model in addition to prior training and experience as a paramedic.I spent 9 yrs of my life in school instead of the 11 spent by a typical physician. I have post grad experience through an emergency medicine fellowship but it was only 1 yr not 3 so I am not a residency trained board certiffied emergencny physician. I can see you independently today and oversee your entire visit here including write you a prescription of any kind with my own dea # but 10 % of my charts will be reviewed with a physician within 1 month. I am the only provider here tonight so if you want a dr you can sign out ama and drive to the nearest hospital to which I can provide you directions and a map if you are not comfortable seeing someone who is not a dr.
now, tell me about your chest pain.....
see how that would not be conducive to delivering efficient care?

No. That's not what I said *at all*. You introduce yourself as a physician assistant just fine, but I'm talking about at the end when the patient says "thanks doc". "actually, I'm a physician assistant" would be a good response to that. You of all people should have adequate bedside manner and know how to keep things efficient. If they know what a PA is (as you think everyone knows what a PA is), then they'll accept it and move on their merry way. If they don't really know what a PA is, you owe it to them to explain it succinctly, and not with that whole defensive attitude you have posted above. This can only benefit your profession.
 
I know we all wear nametags (or, at least, we should be), but it is not a substitute for an introduction. Nametag/coat labels are easy to miss and what if your pt can't read or can't read well enough to understand 'physician assistant' or 'nurse practitioner'?

Pts do need to be held accountable, but it is still our job as providers to introduce ourselves appropriately. In the case above, that did not happen. Mid-levels are still are a recent phenomenon and much of the general public is only familiar with the nurse-doctor dichotomy. Without an appropriate intro, you take away the patient's opportunity to educate themselves or to opt out of your care.

So what, other than wear proper ID, introduce myself and state my title, and correct them when they refer to me as doc/nurse, do you suggest that I do? As I and emedpa both clearly stated, we DID introduce ourselves and correct patients appropriately. Help us with the solution!!!!
 
So what, other than wear proper ID, introduce myself and state my title, and correct them when they refer to me as doc/nurse, do you suggest that I do? As I and emedpa both clearly stated, we DID introduce ourselves and correct patients appropriately. Help us with the solution!!!!

Emedpa does not correct the patients when they say "thanks doc" at the end.
 
No. That's not what I said *at all*. You introduce yourself as a physician assistant just fine, but I'm talking about at the end when the patient says "thanks doc". "actually, I'm a physician assistant" would be a good response to that. You of all people should have adequate bedside manner and know how to keep things efficient. If they know what a PA is (as you think everyone knows what a PA is), then they'll accept it and move on their merry way. If they don't really know what a PA is, you owe it to them to explain it succinctly, and not with that whole defensive attitude you have posted above. This can only benefit your profession.

Agree completely
 
No. That's not what I said *at all*. You introduce yourself as a physician assistant just fine, but I'm talking about at the end when the patient says "thanks doc". "actually, I'm a physician assistant" would be a good response to that. You of all people should have adequate bedside manner and know how to keep things efficient. If they know what a PA is (as you think everyone knows what a PA is), then they'll accept it and move on their merry way. If they don't really know what a PA is, you owe it to them to explain it succinctly, and not with that whole defensive attitude you have posted above. This can only benefit your profession.

Gotta agree with anon-y-mous on this one. Most people will accept it and move on their merry way, but should someone want a doctor...well, that is their right. Don't be so defensive about your role. In 50 yrs when I need a heart cath, you better believe I'll demand the doctor with the extra year of interventional training over the 'standard' cardiologist. Will I fare better? Maybe, maybe not, but as the patient it is MY choice.
 
So what, other than wear proper ID, introduce myself and state my title, and correct them when they refer to me as doc/nurse, do you suggest that I do? As I and emedpa both clearly stated, we DID introduce ourselves and correct patients appropriately. Help us with the solution!!!!

You must not have seen the post I added. But, I think you did great. Sometimes they just don't get it. But the intro gives them a chance to ask.
 
only in medicine are people afraid of their assistants.
 
I can't speak for Tired, but the problem I see in his/her experience is that the nure referenced the PA as 'doctor' and then PA failed to properly introduce herself. Irrespective of the qualifications of mid-levels, patients have the right to know who is providing their health-care.

Precisely.

Would I have allowed a PA to operate on my leg? Maybe, but I would have wanted a lot of questions answered first, like:

1) Will there be a surgeon supervising? Will you have a surgeon available in the event there are complications?

2) What is your training as a sugeon? I know what MD's go through before they operate independently, but how many cases like this have you done?

3) At any point, will a board certified surgeon be confirming your diagnosis and treatment plan?

Of course, I never got to ask these questions, because she came in wearing scrubs and no nametag, never told me she was a PA, and the nurse told me the "doctor" was coming in. It seems like, if she was so sure of her qualifications and abilities, she would have had no problem telling me she was a PA (or at least putting on her nametag). The worst part was that she knew I was a med student, gearing up for my Ortho residency. Or is that why she somewhat hid her title?

My loss? Hardly. I don't know what world you guys live in, but I found a board-certified, residency-trained surgeon to take care of me in no time flat.
 
you still don't get it. most pts call anyone delivering their care "doc".
I have had numerous pts tell me their regular dr is john smith, the pa.
pts use "doc" or "doctor" interchangeably with provider or caregiver. it's just part of the american experience. and I do correct pts(once). after that if they want to call me doc or elmer fudd or whatever knowing I am a pa then I let them....
most of my pts already know what a pa is. we have a very strong presence in the local medical community with lots of pa's who are pcp's and lots of pa's in every specialty represented at the hospital. an ortho consult at my facility gets you a pa 1st then an md later if needed. ditto a vascular surgery consult. ditto a hospital admission to the medicine service. np's and cnm's do a lot of the ob consults. most of the treadmills at the hospital are done by pa's(probably 95% of basic treadmills and nuclear medicine stress tests).
the local level 1 trauma center has several pa's on their housestaff. the minor surgery, hiv, and hep c services are almost entirely midlevels. many of the sigs and colonoscopies are done by pa's. the only services in the hospital without a pa right now are radiology and neurology.
 
I'm sorry, If I have anything more than a middle ear infection, I WILL have to judge the provider by the letters after their name to ensure that I'm getting the best care by the person who is, on paper, the most knowledgeable. I suppose a lot of this has to do with the vast inconsistency possible amongst the midlevels. I was rounding with a huge team recently, and what scared me is that I knew more about minimal change disease than the PA on the team. And I'm sure there are PA's who have Robbins memorized back and front, but the dependability of 4 years med school + 3-7 years residency/fellowship isn't there, so I have to go by the letters after the name.

I think you may have misunderstood me. If you as a patient do not want to be treated by a PA, fine. Patients have that choice, just like they can opt not to go to a teaching institution because they don't want to be cared for by residents and med students.

What I directed that statement to is your attitude as a physician, not a patient. You knew more about minimal change disease than one PA? Fine. Just don't therefore jump to the conclusion that therefore all PAs everywhere are dumb and dangerous in every situation. It is that attitude, which is so pervasive in medicine (surgery vs. ER vs. medicine vs. peds) that leads to further segregation and has the potential for bad patient care since no one has respect for other professionals based on their superficial credentials and instantly discredits anything others have to say just because of their title.

Like it or not, interdisciplinary care involving physicians from different specialites, PAs, NPs, dieticians, etc. etc. is the wave of the future, and we as the new crop of physicians would do well as the undisputed "captains of the ship" to lead the way in encouraging every member of the team to bring their strongpoints and skills to the table for better patient care rather than potentiate the disrespect and stereotypes.
 
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You must not have seen the post I added. But, I think you did great. Sometimes they just don't get it. But the intro gives them a chance to ask.


I didn't, sorry....this thread updates so quickly! :D
 
Uncle P-Bear,

I am sorry that you have had the experiences you have had and although I realize the futility of this discussion, as nothing on here will do anything but fuel your skewed fire, the statements above have compelled me to respond yet again.

It is extremely narrow minded and ignorant of you to make a blanket statement implying that PA's do not know their limitations. You have not worked with anywhere near anything approaching a sliver of PAs currently working in the US today, so you are not qualified to make broad statements like the ones above.

PAs are very clearly taught to recognize their own limitations throughout their education. I can recall numerous situations when interns and residents thought they could handle a situation only to realize they, too, were in over their head, as you alluded to in your post. You "forgive" these MDs their mistakes, so why must you continue to hold all PAs accountable for a handful of mistakes made by a few?

Seriously, what do you think PAs do during their formal and clinical training? Braid each others hair and write "I HEART Dr. Mc Dreamy" on our Trapper Keepers? Although I am a bit concerned that the rapid expansion of PA schools may have hurt the quality of graduates some--the same argument made time and time again for DO schools--PA school is a lot of freaking work!! And far and away MOST of the knowledge I relied on in a day-to-day basis was that which I learned in clinical practice, after graduation. Sound familiar? That is why all MDs require residency to practice. New PA grads make mistakes, just like interns. These mistakes are going to have much greater implications if someone with more experience is not watching over them. In residency, an intern is told to call-call-call their senior resident, since it is often cited that the senior resident bears the responsibility to the patient and will be the one getting yelled at by the attending. Why not hold the supervising physician more responsible for their PAs?

I think you have me confused with someone who doesn't like PAs. But when a PA says to me, and I have heard this often, that he is "just as well trained as physician" this is obvioulsy a guy who doesn't know his limits. I have never heard an intern say, "I am just as well trained as my attending or my chief resident."

I also know that I may come off as arrogant but I assure you (and every resident on SDN will confirm this) residency is a humbling experience and very few of us are big-headed longer than the first few days of intern year if at all. The idea of an intern thumping his chest and putting on airs is so ridiculous that when you see it, it is highly comical and everybody gossips about that fellow and has a good laugh.

I betcha' at this stage of my training (PGY-2 intern, my blog explains all if you are interested) I could function effortlessly as a PA but a typical PA could not function as an attending or even a resident. There is a qualatative difference, allowing of course for outliers. The question is whether this difference is important and I believe I have expressed agreement that for a large portion of routine patients it is not.

On the other hand, even if only ten percent of the patients I would see, for example, in a typical urban ED require attending level skill, that's justification enough to have an attending staffing the ED. That's why they make the big bucks.

I think a lot of people also don't understand the difference between authority and responsibility. You can delegate authority (which is how the PA/Physician relationship was supposed to work) but you can't delegate responsibility.

It was the same in the engineering world, by the way. The well-trained design-draftsman is an important guy in an engineering firm but he's not an engineer and you'd be foolish to fire your PEs because only ten percent of the work actually requires their expertise.

There are very few jobs which are not mostly routine.
 
you still don't get it. most pts call anyone delivering their care "doc".
I have had numerous pts tell me their regular dr is john smith, the pa.
pts use "doc" or "doctor" interchangeably with provider or caregiver. it's just part of the american experience. and I do correct pts(once). after that if they want to call me doc or elmer fudd or whatever knowing I am a pa then I let them....

This is not only wrong, but is grossly disingenuous. Ignorance is no excuse. By not continuing to correct these patients or educating them on the difference between "doc" and midlevel (especially since there were so few midlevels even just a decade ago), you're perpetuating this ignorance. It's almost as if midlevel providers have slid through the backway without people knowing. You not correcting them at the end either shows that a) you've got a complex about not being a physician (which I'm sure is not true), or b) you're just too lazy to do it. Do your part to clear up the ignorance of the American public, and do it whenever they call you doctor.


[
]most of my pts already know what a pa is. we have a very strong presence in the local medical community with lots of pa's who are pcp's and lots of pa's in every specialty represented at the hospital. an ortho consult at my facility gets you a pa 1st then an md later if needed. ditto a vascular surgery consult. ditto a hospital admission to the medicine service. np's and cnm's do a lot of the ob consults. most of the treadmills at the hospital are done by pa's(probably 95% of basic treadmills and nuclear medicine stress tests).
the local level 1 trauma center has several pa's on their housestaff. the minor surgery, hiv, and hep c services are almost entirely midlevels. many of the sigs and colonoscopies are done by pa's. the only services in the hospital without a pa right now are radiology and neurology.

Wow, that sucks. I'd never want to go to your hospital. What prevents more MD's from being hired? Profit-taking hospital owners? Greedy MD's? Poor patients who can't pay?
 
it's considered one of the best hospitals in the nation both by jcaho and a # of survey organizations.....
midlevels are the wave of the future in medicine, or hadn't you heard....it lets the docs see the most difficult 5% of pts...

ok, time for me to go to bed. I have a busy night of working solo and misrepresenting myself to the american public coming up tonight....
 
it's considered one of the best hospitals in the nation both by jcaho and a # of survey organizations.....
midlevels are the wave of the future in medicine, or hadn't you heard....it lets the docs see the most difficult 5% of pts...

Wow, awesome! Best idea ever! Replace your entire army of board certified, fully trained physicians with "physician lite"s like emedpa, so that the physicians can work just 5% of the time. What a recipe for healthcare success.
 
fair enough. keep in mind that there are also general surgeons who would do a crap job of it. just because they know how to do a cosmetic closure doesn't mean they will if they are 10 min late for their next appt.....

I have a class PA students and volunteer students and they all seem real cool. Generally, they bring a lot of experience to the table and I respect that. But when it comes to the discussion of pathology and physiology of cases, the untrained med students usually dominate. I think both bring something to the cases.

Anyway I just want to say you have the biggest case of inferiority complex I've run across. Everyone knows that no one really argues like this on the wards, yet you still chose to partake over and over and over and over and over and over again. Good luck carrying that around.
 
it's considered one of the best hospitals in the nation both by jcaho and a # of survey organizations.....
midlevels are the wave of the future in medicine, or hadn't you heard....it lets the docs see the most difficult 5% of pts...

This is actually my biggest beef with PA's training. sub-specialty PAs without any sub-specialty training. Well that, and 1/2 to 2/3 of the PAs I've run into did not know their limits. Between the PA who was taking care of a UC pt on his own and treating her with IV vanc for C-diff and Pyleo, and the frequent omissions of aspirin in stroke pts, or the deciding to leave the pt with a SBO without a surgical consult.
 
But when a PA says to me, and I have heard this often, that he is "just as well trained as physician" this is obvioulsy a guy who doesn't know his limits.

I wholeheartedly agree with you! I detest these sort of PAs, becuase your experience with them leads you to make blanket statements on the web that "PAs are scary because they don't know their limitations." I am only challenging you to say "I have worked with a PA who was scary because he didn't know his limits"

Before I went to medical school, I used to hear attendings I worked with make statements that I 'functioned at a level of a PGY-3 resident' (which ICOMPLETELY disagree with), and on occasion asked me to manage patients I frankly did not feel comfortable managing. I spoke up, expressed discomfort, and when in doubt AT ALL, I called someone with more experience than myself. While not perfect, I think this enabled me to learn a lot and I don't feel that I endangered patient care. I was a PA who was aware of my limitations, and clearly felt my limitations were more narrow that the supervising physicians whom had worked with me for years--so there you have it, proof that not ALL PAs are unaware of their limitations.

I betcha' at this stage of my training (PGY-2 intern, my blog explains all if you are interested) I could function effortlessly as a PA but a typical PA could not function as an attending or even a resident.

I would qualify that statement that you could function effortlessly as an ER PA. When I worked as a PA, I would often be called upon to see surgical consults (which, yes, were eventually staffed with a chief resident or attending--ALL of them) placed by a PGY 2, PGY 3 or attending ER doc. While they could run circles around me in most of the pathology seen in the ED, I did have a bit more expertise than the ED residents in a small specialized area. During consults, we generally had a good academic exchange of information and sometimes I was right, sometimes the ED was right, sometimes we were both right and sometimes we were all wrong. I did not and do not claim to be remotely as well trained as an attending or chief resident, but I do claim to know more about my area of practice, which I spent 60-70 hours a week working in, than another MD who is trained in another specialty.


I think a lot of people also don't understand the difference between authority and responsibility. You can delegate authority (which is how the PA/Physician relationship was supposed to work) but you can't delegate responsibility.

Very good thought and well worded.
 
As far as the whole introduction thing goes, I cant tell you how many times a PA has walked in and tried to sneak one past me by muffling the second part of his title. "Hi I am John Smith, I am a Physician A-hum-hum", so I am glad to hear emedpa introduces himself properly because patients are customers and deserve to know exactly what they are buying. Even though the consensus on this thread is that patients don't care who provides their medical services MD or PA, I think that is only a function of the fact that they can't tell them apart. Personally I would rather see an MD over a PA or NP, and that is because I percieve better value in the MD.
 
Has SDN turned into nothing more than rehashing the same old This vs That crap?

+pissed+
 
...Patients put much more emphasis on listening, availability, and taking time with them.

Welcome to the discussion. You missed out on a similar thread a couple of weeks ago.

wait till they find out how many bacteria there are!

:laugh: Perhaps the most appropriate reply to the title of this thread.

MacGyver and emedpa in the same thread again? It's like watching Wrestlemania

Wizard standing by to tag in.

Has SDN turned into nothing more than rehashing the same old This vs That crap?

Yes.
 
There are patients that prefer a specific MD or PA or NP due to their bedside manner. Realistically patients have no way of knowing the limitation of any medical provider. Patients put much more emphasis on listening, availability, and taking time with them.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I worked for an HMO once and stayed only one miserable year. I won't tell you the name of the HMO, but their initials were CIGNA. We had an excellent ENT surgeon that was an a**hole of the highest order. Patients hated him and even the other HMO docs did their best to refer elsewhere. I wonder if he ever caught on?
 
It was the same in the engineering world, by the way. The well-trained design-draftsman is an important guy in an engineering firm but he's not an engineer and you'd be foolish to fire your PEs because only ten percent of the work actually requires their expertise.

Nice analogy Panda, but not quite 1:1 correlation (were you formerly an engineer?). The main difference between the two would be that midlevels are licensed to perform a certain scope of practice and have had training specific to that scope. Designer-drafters haven't had any engineering training nor are they licensed to perform any form of engineering, but rather they have had the drafting training, which really doesn't even qualify as a significant subset of engineering training (3 hrs out of >120 total in my undergrad). The midlevel training does quantify a significant subset of physician training.

PAs, NPs, CNMs, and CRNAs will never completely replace MDs; however, they should be allowed to practice within the scope of their training AND experience. If they can see 80% of the PCP patients effectively, let them do it. If through experience they can see 50-60% of the patients in a certain specialty, let them do it. We will have a better, more efficient, less expensive healthcare system in the end if we all work together, which was the topic of the article that was linked by the OP just in case no one took the time to read it.

- soonereng, PE
 
Nice analogy Panda, but not quite 1:1 correlation (were you formerly an engineer?). The main difference between the two would be that midlevels are licensed to perform a certain scope of practice and have had training specific to that scope. Designer-drafters haven't had any engineering training nor are they licensed to perform any form of engineering, but rather they have had the drafting training, which really doesn't even qualify as a significant subset of engineering training (3 hrs out of >120 total in my undergrad). The midlevel training does quantify a significant subset of physician training.

PAs, NPs, CNMs, and CRNAs will never completely replace MDs; however, they should be allowed to practice within the scope of their training AND experience. If they can see 80% of the PCP patients effectively, let them do it. If through experience they can see 50-60% of the patients in a certain specialty, let them do it. We will have a better, more efficient, less expensive healthcare system in the end if we all work together, which was the topic of the article that was linked by the OP just in case no one took the time to read it.

- soonereng, PE


More efficient but not less expensive. Labor is not the biggest factor in healthcare costs, so don't assume that flooding the place with mid-levels(who are not necessarily cheap) will dip healthcare costs.
BTW if that argument was correct then as their numbers have risen healthcare costs should have been falling--not happening.
 
only in medicine are people afraid of their assistants.

Mid-levels are not 'assistants'.

How true! Hyperbaric, I think the name kind of gives it away (Physician 'Assistant'), no?

Only if you can't do math. There are 67,000 medical students. So lets see somehow 24,000 is more than than 67,000 umm not where I went to school.

Why wasn't this the end of the discussion? I don't have anything constructive to add to the argument, just like watching the cars pile up.
 
While there is in all probability a great deal of variability as to the quality of a PA-C, predicated I'd think mostly on experience, there is, perhaps to a lesser extent, a great deal of variability amongst MD's as well. Just as someone has to graduate as the last of their PA class, so it goes for the MD class. My point is that just because it says MD doesn't mean they are the be all end all.

All this in mind however, if I or anyone I knew needed surgery- I don't care how minor- there is zero chance I wouldn't go to a board certified surgeon. If there is a knife going to skin, I want the holder of that knife to have had 1000cases by his chief year and hundreds of night on call- that simple. This is not meant to disparage the PA's, I have nothing against you guys, but I am appalled that you can graduate PA school and immediately become a surgical PA without post graduate training.
 
Why wasn't this the end of the discussion? I don't have anything constructive to add to the argument, just like watching the cars pile up.

I would think that your are piling on with the Troll patrol, but I was just trying to inject some actual facts in the typical McGyver oh im going to put out some inaccurate information to prove my Trolldom. Three seconds with google gives you the information on the number of medical students and NP/PA students which despite the title of this thread do not seem to greatly outnumber (or even outnumber) med students (unless this is one of those new math things).

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
All this in mind however, if I or anyone I knew needed surgery- I don't care how minor- there is zero chance I wouldn't go to a board certified surgeon. If there is a knife going to skin, I want the holder of that knife to have had 1000cases by his chief year and hundreds of night on call- that simple.

And I'd be willing to bet most people would agree.

When I faced this situation, I would have been happy to let the PA do the case, as long as there were a supervising surgeon either in the room, or at bare minimum, readily available in case of complications.

I know exactly what it takes to get through a surgical residency and become board certified. But when the PA is holding the knife, I don't have a clue if this is her 1000th case, or 4th.
 
While there is in all probability a great deal of variability as to the quality of a PA-C, predicated I'd think mostly on experience, there is, perhaps to a lesser extent, a great deal of variability amongst MD's as well. Just as someone has to graduate as the last of their PA class, so it goes for the MD class. My point is that just because it says MD doesn't mean they are the be all end all.

All this in mind however, if I or anyone I knew needed surgery- I don't care how minor- there is zero chance I wouldn't go to a board certified surgeon. If there is a knife going to skin, I want the holder of that knife to have had 1000cases by his chief year and hundreds of night on call- that simple. This is not meant to disparage the PA's, I have nothing against you guys, but I am appalled that you can graduate PA school and immediately become a surgical PA without post graduate training.

Why should this suprise you? PA's have minimal surgical training that allows them not to be dangerous in the OR. Most of what PA's do in a surgical practice is not in the OR (in most cases). OK lets say you are a surgeon and you are getting into practice (assuming a community hospital with no surgical residency). Its convenient to have somebody help with the surgery. You know hold that ooky stuff out of the way, put some pressure on that bleeder etc. Now what you will initially do is use an SA or RNFA service (or something the hospital provides which will probably be the same thing). If you are really unlucky the primary care physicians will insist that they assist you for any surgery that they send you. If you are lucky there will be a semi-retired surgeon that still does assists.

Now lets say you are moderately successful and get a little busy. You are still seeing all your followups which limits your ability to see new patients and you are getting sick of the "help of the day" which varies widely in talent and demeanor. You look around and try to figure out what you are going to do. It would be nice to work with the same assist on bigger cases and someone to round on patients on the floor while your doing smaller cases. It would be really nice if this person could see followups while you are seeing new consults. Now who would that person be hmm yep a PA.

Now you look at the training. You can go out and hire an experienced PA, but they usually cost a lot more money than a new grad. You can look for a post grad PA in surgery, but they usually command a premium and there are only about 50 of them in the whole country every year. There are also about 90 PA's that are trained in surgical PA programs. Now remembering that about there are about 2500 graduates each year, you can see this is the minority. Also with the post-grad students you are going to be competing with the CT groups that are offering big money.

So what do you do? You look for someone that wants to change jobs or you look for a new grad. Here you are going to find one of three things. A PA student that had a lot of surgery experience prior to PA school (re: a CST or CNOR), a PA student that did a significant amount of additional surgical training as part of their electives, or someone who did the minimal amount of training in school. Obviously the first or second are preferrable, but may not be available. Or you may decide that you can teach the surgery part (as long as they have the basic sterile technique down) and that you would like someone that has more experience in medicine so that you don't have to train that part as much. If you are in a group you may have the option of a group of PA's where the training is done by a combination of the PA's and surgeons.

In less something drastically changes, there are not going to be enough post-grad programs to provide sufficent PA's for surgery (remember right now 25% of new grads are going into surgery). So what things will fall back on is the basic principal of the physician assistant. Someone who is trained in the basics of medicine that the Physician trains for the particular venue.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
only in medicine are people afraid of their assistants.

Thats because only in medicine do we have fools that decided to give away their profession.

Do you see lawyers letting paralegals file their own cases and open their own shops? Hell no.

Do you see dentists letting their dental assistants open up their own clinics? Hell no.
 
and barbers...they are doing cosmetic work without putting in the time to do undergrad/medschool/surgical residency/plastics fellowship....I say if it's my hair only a board certified plastic surgeon can alter it.....I could tell you horror stories about what happens when undertrained barbers/surgeon wannabes get ahold of a pair of trimmers...the lawyers will be all over this...barbers are done....are you with me? I have seen the so-called clinicals these barbers do and they are NOTHING like what a surgeon does. THEY DON'T EVEN USE STERILE TECHNIQUE!call your congressman now..we need to unite or there will be no place for plastic surgeons in hair styling boutiques!
THESE FOLKS BECAME BARBERS IN LESS THAN 2000 HOURS!
http://www.salonschools.com/ht_docs/training/programs/barber/barber.shtml

Well you're a regular Groucho Marx, aren't you?
 
And I'd be willing to bet most people would agree.

When I faced this situation, I would have been happy to let the PA do the case, as long as there were a supervising surgeon either in the room, or at bare minimum, readily available in case of complications.

I know exactly what it takes to get through a surgical residency and become board certified. But when the PA is holding the knife, I don't have a clue if this is her 1000th case, or 4th.

I would tend to agree here. In general if you are having surgery you should meet and have confidence in the surgeon. If I remember correctly, the original discussion was about a lipoma. These are dealt with by a number of people besides surgeon. This would probably come under what Panda describes as that 60% of medicine that may not need to be done by a physician. I have seen these done in the office, in derm clinic, in the ER (don't ask), and in the OR by both PA's, physicians and surgeons with varying degrees of success.

From my point of view the PA is wrong not to have a name tag and not to introduce themselves as a PA (both mandated by law in my state). The function of the PA in surgery is one of continuous discussion. We may eventually end up with two different types of PA's (this is the approach taken in the UK). In addition the OP on this should have been told when they made the appointment that they would be seeing a PA and given the option of seeing someone else (this is the how my practice works). I don't want to see anyone that doesn't want me to see them. There is no rule that you can see an MD as fast as the PA though (wait time for a new patient to see an MD is 2 month in our practice and 2 weeks for the PA).

Usually PA's in surgery are there do H&P's preop and to do follow-up as well as assist in the OR. In certain practices where surgery is not a certainty such as Ortho or Urology it would be appropriate for a PA to do the initial evaluation and initiate a treatment plan. This is how many of the more successful practices work. Surgery PA's generally have a more dependent climate than most.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Thats because only in medicine do we have fools that decided to give away their profession.

Do you see lawyers letting paralegals file their own cases and open their own shops? Hell no.

Do you see dentists letting their dental assistants open up their own clinics? Hell no.

Wow...he reappears!!! Welcome back MacGyver! :D

Please check some BASIC FACTS---PAs can not, under any circumstance in any state open their own clinic. The AAPA website has some great facts on there, some of which I have cut-and-pasted for you:

Q. Where do PAs "draw the line" as far as what they can treat and what a physician can treat?
A. What a physician assistant does varies with training, experience, and state law. In addition, the scope of the PA's practice corresponds to the supervising physician's practice. In general, a physician assistant will see many of the same types of patients as the physician. The cases handled by physicians are generally the more complicated medical cases or those cases which require care that is not a routine part of the PA's scope of work. Referral to the physician, or close consultation between the patient-PA-physician, is done for unusual or hard to manage cases. Physician assistants are taught to "know our limits" and refer to physicians appropriately. It is an important part of PA training.

Q. What's the difference between a PA and a physician?
A. Physician assistants are educated in the "medical model"; in some schools they attend many of the same classes as medical students.
One of the main differences between PA education and physician education is not the core content of the curriculum, but the amount of time spent in formal educationl. In addition to time in school, physicians are required to do an internship, and the majority also complete a residency in a specialty following that. PAs do not have to undertake an internship or residency.
A physician has complete responsibility for the care of the patient. PAs share that responsibility with the supervising physicians.

Suggested Guidelines for Physician-Physician Assistant Practice

Adopted by the AMA House of Delegates, June 1995

Reflecting the comments from the American Academy of Physician Assistants, separate model guidelines for Physician/Physician Assistants practice have been developed. These are based on the unique relationship of Physician Assistants who recognize themselves as agents of physicians with respect to delegated medical acts, and legal responsibilities. They are consistent with the existing AMA policies concerning Physician Assistants cited in this report. In all settings, Physician Assistants recognize physician supervision in the delivery of patient care. The suggested guidelines reflect those as follows:

1. Health care services delivered by physicians and Physician Assistants must be within the scope of each practitioners authorized practice as defined by state law.
2. The physician is ultimately responsible for coordinating and managing the care of patients and, with the appropriate input of the Physician Assistant, ensuring the quality of health care provided to patients.
3. The physician is responsible for the supervision of the Physician Assistant in all settings.
4. The role of the Physician Assistant(s) in the delivery of care should be defined through mutually agreed upon guidelines that are developed by the physician and the Physician Assistant and based on the physician's delegatory style.
5. The physician must be available for consultation with the Physician Assistant at all times either in person or through telecommunication systems or other means.
6. The extent of the involvement by the Physician Assistant in the assessment and implementation of treatment will depend on the complexity and acuity of the patient's condition and the training and experience and preparation of the Physician Assistant as adjudged by the physician.
7. Patients should be made clearly aware at all times whether they are being cared for by a physician or a Physician Assistant.
8. The physician and Physician Assistant together should review all delegated patient services on a regular basis, as well as the mutually agreed upon guidelines for practice.
9. The physician is responsible for clarifying and familiarizing the Physician Assistant with his supervising methods and style of delegating patient care.
 
"PAs can not, under any circumstance in any state open their own clinic."

BITSY- a bit of clarification in order here. pa's may not INDEPENDENTLY open their own clinic. they may however open a clinic and hire a supervising physician(s) in a growing number of states. the best example of this is north carolina although several other states allow this as well.
I know several pa's who are 100% clinic owners.some states require a physician presence a certain # of hrs per week. others just require a physician supervisor of record without ever requiring them to be present in clinic.
 
"PAs can not, under any circumstance in any state open their own clinic."

BITSY- a bit of clarification in order here. pa's may not INDEPENDENTLY open their own clinic. they may however open a clinic and hire a supervising physician(s) in a growing number of states. the best example of this is north carolina although several other states allow this as well.
I know several pa's who are 100% clinic owners.some states require a physician presence a certain # of hrs per week. others just require a physician supervisor of record without ever requiring them to be present in clinic.

Thanks for your clarification, and yes I am well aware of this (used to be a PA). I apologize for not being clear in my verbage. I guess in my mind opening a clinic (i.e. "Bitsy 3221, PA-C -- Internal Medicine") is a bit different from owning a clinic.
 

From your weblink:

"Regardless of the extent to which all involved parties vest administrative and financial responsibility in a PA, the supervising physician retains ultimate professional authority over medical decisions. Both the supervising physician and PA must comply in all respects with the supervision requirements set forth in laws governing PA practice."

A PA can not, in any state, and no matter how business savvy they are, ever open (and by that I mean independently operate) their own clinic. So stop worrying everyone.
 
I'm not trying to scare anyone, just clarify the situation.
We are both saying the same thing here.
a pa may open a clinic and have sole ownership in some states. they may not however practice without a supervising physician of record as np's do in several states.
 
Yah. Very bored. You got any pix online? Or you could always join me on Yahoo Games. :laugh:

Nah...it's nighty nite for me. Its like almost 3am here. I watched South Park episodes from season 8.

I loved the Anime episode.
 
A PA took out a mole of mine once, and left a nasty little scar.

I swore an oath of vengeance that very day to destroy all PAs.
 
A PA took out a mole of mine once, and left a nasty little scar.

I swore an oath of vengeance that very day to destroy all PAs.

you didn't demand a board certified plastic surgeon? I find that hard to believe!( note sarcasm :) )
my derm guy is a pa as well. I see him yearly as I have had BCC(basal cell carcinoma) before.
he does a very thorough screening exam, biopsies suspicious lesions and arranges f/u with his sp, an md derm/mohs surgeon as needed.
 
"PAs can not, under any circumstance in any state open their own clinic."

BITSY- a bit of clarification in order here. pa's may not INDEPENDENTLY open their own clinic. they may however open a clinic and hire a supervising physician(s) in a growing number of states. the best example of this is north carolina although several other states allow this as well.
I know several pa's who are 100% clinic owners.some states require a physician presence a certain # of hrs per week. others just require a physician supervisor of record without ever requiring them to be present in clinic.

sounds like the plumbing contractor that holds the license that everybody else uses to get through the "red tape".
 
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