NPs and PA students greatly outnumber med students now

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

MacGyver

Membership Revoked
Removed
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
3,757
Reaction score
5
Some scary numbers here folks

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cg...NDEX=20&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

With favorable changes in state laws and the job market,
the number of NP students rose from fewer than 4,000 in 1992 to more than
21,558 in 1999.

As of 2001 there were 132 and 337 institutions with PA and NP education programs, respectively.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I don't see why that is necessarily scary. I think mid-level practitioners are a great asset to our communities, and I would love to see more of them. They do an awesome job providing primary care, and I think it is great that most of the rural areas in our country are only staffed by NP/PA's.

I guess it'd be more scary if you were a family practitioner instead of, say, a nursing student *kof kof*.
 
So...not so scary. Can we PLEASE agree to close this thread before we develop another tired, overdone MD vs. PA/NP debate.....

No......energy............

:sleep:
 
and barbers...they are doing cosmetic work without putting in the time to do undergrad/medschool/surgical residency/plastics fellowship....I say if it's my hair only a board certified plastic surgeon can alter it.....I could tell you horror stories about what happens when undertrained barbers/surgeon wannabes get ahold of a pair of trimmers...the lawyers will be all over this...barbers are done....are you with me? I have seen the so-called clinicals these barbers do and they are NOTHING like what a surgeon does. THEY DON'T EVEN USE STERILE TECHNIQUE!call your congressman now..we need to unite or there will be no place for plastic surgeons in hair styling boutiques!
THESE FOLKS BECAME BARBERS IN LESS THAN 2000 HOURS!
http://www.salonschools.com/ht_docs/training/programs/barber/barber.shtml
 
What's so surprising about this? Midlevels are gonna take over primary care in the future. Be prepared when that happens.
 
Next step is to start shutting down FP residency programs and replacing them with more derm, rad-onc, plastics and all the good stuff.


Why would the derm, rad oncs, and plastics docs want to do that?
 
Typical. PA's like emedpa chime in with some sarcastic post.

These midlevels are rapidly encroaching on MD territory. It's easy for uncle panda to recognize their limitations, but what about generic employer/insurance plan, or average citizen?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
That is a step in the right direction. Nobody likes Primary care anyways. Next step is to start shutting down FP residency programs and replacing them with more derm, rad-onc, plastics and all the good stuff.

but the bottom third of the class has to match somewhere...
 

Only if you can't do math. There are 67,000 medical students. So lets see somehow 24,000 is more than than 67,000 umm not where I went to school. This would be compatible with Mid-levels being about 20% of providers out there. There have been dramatic increases in NP/PA programs that is starting to slow down due to a lack of faculty. Now we are seeing new MD/DO programs starting and class size increasing. PA/NP programs are more numerous but smaller hence the numbers.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Typical. PA's like emedpa chime in with some sarcastic post.

These midlevels are rapidly encroaching on MD territory. It's easy for uncle panda to recognize their limitations, but what about generic employer/insurance plan, or average citizen?

A troll is a troll. You don't go to their level, you just provide accurate information and don't feed the troll.

Along that line you really need to learn how insurance plans/employers work. For the most part they just ensure that there are enough physicians in the plan that accept whatever rate they are paying. Employers don't look at the provider, just the price the insurance company is charging. The average citizen mostly wants to know if their provider is on the plan they pick and how much of a price difference there is to keep their provider. It is much more common for a patient to choose a different provider than choose a more expensive insurance plan. I enjoy reading Panda's blog, but he isn't working in the real world (no offense to the Panda). There are patients that prefer a specific MD or PA or NP due to their bedside manner. Realistically patients have no way of knowing the limitation of any medical provider. Patients put much more emphasis on listening, availability, and taking time with them.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
wait till they find out how many bacteria there are!
 
Typical. PA's like emedpa chime in with some sarcastic post.

WHAT'S TYPICAL IS MACGYVER STARTING ANOTHER PA/MIDLEVEL BASHING THREAD AND YOU FANNING THE FLAMES.....

THE POINT OF MY POST WAS TO SHOW HOW RIDICULOUS THE ORIGINAL POST WAS IN CONTEXT...

MODERATORS.....TIME TO CLOSE THE THREAD......
 
Med students shouldn't be scared about the number of NP/PA students, as others have pointed out, nursing students have always outnumbered med students. The focus should be on expansion of responsibilities of these midlevel providers.

Personally, I do not believe that we should artifically create barriers for NP/PAs. If they can do the same thing, with the same result, as an MD who has far more training, then it is the medical establishment who should be questioning why they have programs who train people to do the same thing that NP/PAs can do in half the training.

If the case is that a family practice physician can be trained within the NP/PA program, then perhaps MDs should focus on training specialists and to focus on more complex diseases. Of course, I know that there is more to the medical economics than just turf wars, but I think the idea that 'only an MD can do this and that regardless of cost or efficiency' is wasteful of money and time that it takes to train an MD.
 
A troll is a troll. You don't go to their level, you just provide accurate information and don't feed the troll.

Along that line you really need to learn how insurance plans/employers work. For the most part they just ensure that there are enough physicians in the plan that accept whatever rate they are paying. Employers don't look at the provider, just the price the insurance company is charging. The average citizen mostly wants to know if their provider is on the plan they pick and how much of a price difference there is to keep their provider. It is much more common for a patient to choose a different provider than choose a more expensive insurance plan. I enjoy reading Panda's blog, but he isn't working in the real world (no offense to the Panda). There are patients that prefer a specific MD or PA or NP due to their bedside manner. Realistically patients have no way of knowing the limitation of any medical provider. Patients put much more emphasis on listening, availability, and taking time with them.

David Carpenter, PA-C

No offense taken. And I not "anti-PA."
 
All I know is this: Last year when I had a lipoma in my thigh, I made an appointment in my HMO's Gen Surg clinic. The nurse told me the doctor would be in to see me. She was very nice, professional, and I was impressed. She scheduled my case, signed me out, and I left. I went home, looked my scheduling paper, only to find out that the "doctor" was a PA.

Needless to say, I cancelled my surgery and my health plan.
 
All I know is this: Last year when I had a lipoma in my thigh, I made an appointment in my HMO's Gen Surg clinic. The nurse told me the doctor would be in to see me. She was very nice, professional, and I was impressed. She scheduled my case, signed me out, and I left. I went home, looked my scheduling paper, only to find out that the "doctor" was a PA.

Needless to say, I cancelled my surgery and my health plan.

YOUR LOSS....your next provider may not be "nice, professional, and impressive"...regardless of the initials after their name.....

good luck finding a minor surgical clinic not staffed by a midlevel.....ESPECIALLY at an hmo.....
 
WHAT'S TYPICAL IS MACGYVER STARTING ANOTHER PA/MIDLEVEL BASHING THREAD AND YOU FANNING THE FLAMES.....

THE POINT OF MY POST WAS TO SHOW HOW RIDICULOUS THE ORIGINAL POST WAS IN CONTEXT...

MODERATORS.....TIME TO CLOSE THE THREAD......

Okay, they didn't teach you civility in PA school? Using all-caps on the internet is the equivalent of screaming. If you didn't know that before, you know it now so please show some decorum... if not for discussion's sake, but even for the fact that we may be potential future colleagues of your physician sponsor. It's hard to imagine that you're actually a rational person. Moreover, the issue is an important one, and it was a link that was posted that requires further research. This is a largely irrelevant topic to you as a non-MD, so I can clearly see how you would think it was unnecessary. I don't think this thread should be closed, as that would just be sweeping these issues under the rug. Not cool.

YOUR LOSS....your next provider may not be "nice, professional, and impressive"...regardless of the initials after their name.....

This of course assumes that the "nice, professional, impressive" midlevel is going to provide the same results as a general surgeon would. Even I can remove a lipoma (and I was asked to assist in doing so), but nevertheless, I would want the trained surgeon for obvious reasons. The "good luck finding blah" attitude is so typical nowadays and is part of the problem. Americans shouldn't have to settle for this. Unfortunately it will probably take some prominent deaths or something for Americans to wake up and question what's happening.

core0: thanks for the information about the insurance plans. I guess humans do have this tendency to want someone who will take all the time in the world to listen.
 
YOUR LOSS....your next provider may not be "nice, professional, and impressive"...regardless of the initials after their name.....

good luck finding a minor surgical clinic not staffed by a midlevel.....ESPECIALLY at an hmo.....

who the hell cares if they're nice? I want GOOD. 6 years of surgical slavery after four years of school good sounds about ideal. I'm sure there are PAs out there who would be great at it, and I'm sure there are PAs out there who graduated from 2 years of school a month ago and read about this surgery a few times. Unfortunately, I have no idea which I'll get.
 
MacGyver and emedpa in the same thread again? It's like watching Wrestlemania

Anyway, as I see it,

1) PAs/NPs are going to take over all aspects of primary care because they are much less expensive to insurance/HMOs than family med MDs.
2) No, there is nothing you can do about it.
3) The extra training of FM MDs is wasted in any case because tough cases get farmed out to specialists.
4) That's why you have to match into a specialty, or surgery, or else do IM and then subspecialize. Bedside manner may be the main thing for a primary care provider, but for your surgeon or oncologist you're going to want the guy with the most knowledge and the most training.

This thread may as well be titled "Family Medicine is Finished." We'd get a lot less disagreement.
 
MacGyver and emedpa in the same thread again? It's like watching Wrestlemania

Anyway, as I see it,

1) PAs/NPs are going to take over all aspects of primary care because they are much less expensive to insurance/HMOs than family med MDs.
2) No, there is nothing you can do about it.
3) The extra training of FM MDs is wasted in any case because tough cases get farmed out to specialists.
4) That's why you have to match into a specialty, or surgery, or else do IM and then subspecialize. Bedside manner may be the main thing for a primary care provider, but for your surgeon or oncologist you're going to want the guy with the most knowledge and the most training.

This thread may as well be titled "Family Medicine is Finished." We'd get a lot less disagreement.

FM isn't going to go away, but it is going to continue to contract into a much smaller field. I doubt that PAs and NPs will ever be able to be fully autonomous, thereby requiring a small number of FM MDs to supervise them.
 
MacGyver and emedpa in the same thread again? It's like watching Wrestlemania

Anyway, as I see it,

1) PAs/NPs are going to take over all aspects of primary care because they are much less expensive to insurance/HMOs than family med MDs.
2) No, there is nothing you can do about it.
3) The extra training of FM MDs is wasted in any case because tough cases get farmed out to specialists.
4) That's why you have to match into a specialty, or surgery, or else do IM and then subspecialize. Bedside manner may be the main thing for a primary care provider, but for your surgeon or oncologist you're going to want the guy with the most knowledge and the most training.

This thread may as well be titled "Family Medicine is Finished." We'd get a lot less disagreement.

1. Actually they are not any less expensive to the insurance/HMO's outside of medicare. The real reason for the decrease on FP is the lack of renumeration for the time spent. From an FP business standpoint they cost less than an FP doc.
2. Probably true.
3. Not necessarily. At some level you will still need some supervision for PA/NP's thats where the extra training comes in. It will be a different model from what you see now.
4. A side effect of number three (referral to specialty) is the rise of mid-levels in specialty. You have a specialist directing the care and mid-levels handling the nuts and bolts. For PA's 25% of the jobs are in surgery. These PA's are not the surgeons but handling follow up and assisting in the OR. Allowing the surgeon to be more efficent.

I would agree that you want someone with skills and knowledge, but if people can't communicate then it doesn't work. The fascinating data on this comes out of malpractice data. Whether or not you did something wrong has very little bearing on wether you get sued. Instead it is the patients perception that you care about them.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I do think we should look at EMED PA's position. He is a PA with a lot of experience. He operates with a lot of autonomy in his current position, and his supervising physician must feel comfortable giving that to him. He has also admitted in previous posts that there is variability amongst PAs. It is his position, generally, that he can do a job well, and he resents the idea that he, or others with his level of training, shouldn't be allowed to aspire to function in his capacity.

In the overly regulated, overtrained medical establishment, we actually do have rules that mandate physician oversight. Regardless of how I may feel about this issue, no PA can function independently of MD oversight anyway. Overall, no one has actually been able to prove that having PAs involved in care actually diminishes quality of care. If we have to protect our market from PAs, I think that we should question our position within that market. The incompetence that people keep screaming about has either failed to materialize, or been checked by physician supervision.

Lastly, who cares how many PAs are in training? They will all eventually fall into a niche, and if more PAs are trained than there are PA niches, it will drive down the cost of PAs via supply and demand. I am training to be a physician, and when the battle lines inevitable clear, I will be competing for different positions anyway.

As a side note, no one goes bonkers when paralegals work in law offices. What about the secretaries? When I worked as a legal secretary, I typed up many forms according to the attorney's instruction that went directly to court and impacted people's cases. I still don't see what the difference is between a paralegal and a PA, and why one should have a greater right to exist over the other.
 
I do think we should look at EMED PA's position. He is a PA with a lot of experience. He operates with a lot of autonomy in his current position, and his supervising physician must feel comfortable giving that to him. He has also admitted in previous posts that there is variability amongst PAs. It is his position, generally, that he can do a job well, and he resents the idea that he, or others with his level of training, shouldn't be allowed to aspire to function in his capacity.

In the overly regulated, overtrained medical establishment, we actually do have rules that mandate physician oversight. Regardless of how I may feel about this issue, no PA can function independently of MD oversight anyway. Overall, no one has actually been able to prove that having PAs involved in care actually diminishes quality of care. If we have to protect our market from PAs, I think that we should question our position within that market. The incompetence that people keep screaming about has either failed to materialize, or been checked by physician supervision.

Lastly, who cares how many PAs are in training? They will all eventually fall into a niche, and if more PAs are trained than there are PA niches, it will drive down the cost of PAs via supply and demand. I am training to be a physician, and when the battle lines inevitable clear, I will be competing for different positions anyway.

As a side note, no one goes bonkers when paralegals work in law offices. What about the secretaries? When I worked as a legal secretary, I typed up many forms according to the attorney's instruction that went directly to court and impacted people's cases. I still don't see what the difference is between a paralegal and a PA, and why one should have a greater right to exist over the other.

thank you
 
I don't think Emedpa is gonna like being called a paralegal. :laugh:

Actually I don't mind at all. it's a fair comparison. paralegals get much of the same training that lawyers do and can do the majority of the work that they do. also an experienced paralegal can make more than an entry level lawyer...
 
who the hell cares if they're nice? I want GOOD. 6 years of surgical slavery after four years of school good sounds about ideal. I'm sure there are PAs out there who would be great at it, and I'm sure there are PAs out there who graduated from 2 years of school a month ago and read about this surgery a few times. Unfortunately, I have no idea which I'll get.
fair enough. keep in mind that there are also general surgeons who would do a crap job of it. just because they know how to do a cosmetic closure doesn't mean they will if they are 10 min late for their next appt.....
 
Actually I don't mind at all. it's a fair comparison. paralegals get much of the same training that lawyers do and can do the majority of the work that they do. also an experienced paralegal can make more than an entry level lawyer...

I guess I was vindicated :laugh: .
 
This spreading of learning & science based education has to be stopped. No good can come from it.
 
YOUR LOSS....your next provider may not be "nice, professional, and impressive"...regardless of the initials after their name.....

good luck finding a minor surgical clinic not staffed by a midlevel.....ESPECIALLY at an hmo.....

I can't speak for Tired, but the problem I see in his/her experience is that the nure referenced the PA as 'doctor' and then PA failed to properly introduce herself. Irrespective of the qualifications of mid-levels, patients have the right to know who is providing their health-care.
 
BTW, you people forget that PAs stand to loose the most from an oversupply of PAs. Yeah they celebrate how much easier it is to become a PA and how much easier their work schedule/job is, but that very dynamic is going to devalue their services in the long run.
 
Alas, the great debate continues.

PLEASE all you posters out there, all I ask of you is this:

STOP judging people by the letters after their name. As I have said in a previous thread, you do not like it when some nurse, patient or attending craps all over you for no reason just because they had a bad experience with a med student before. You don't like being held responsible for previous bad med students/interns/residents, etc (I know because there are umpteen threads all over this board with med students whining about these experiences), so quit doing it to the PAs and NPs. Keep an open mind when you encounter or *gasp* actually have to be SEEN by one of these health care professionals!

There are some really bad PAs out there, no doubt about it. But this does not mean that the entire profession should be shut down. Why doesn't anyone begrudge the SUPERVISING PHYSICIANS who apparently are giving these 'PAs of death' such a long leash? The basis of the PA profession is collaboration with doctors, and by definition a PA can not see patients without a supervision physician overseeing their care, so instead of bashing PAs why don't you get on these docs a little more to share the responsibility?
 
Irrespective of the qualifications of mid-levels, patients have the right to know who is providing their health-care.

So very true, but in my experience working as a PA before I went to medical school, I wore a lab coat with my name and "PA-C" embroidered on it, a name badge with my name and "PA-C" and "physician assistant" written out below that, always introduced myself as "Bitsy 3221, the PA (or physician assistant)" and proceeded along my exam/procedure/etc. After all was said and done, about a third said "thanks, Bitsy", a third said "thanks, doc" and a third said "thanks, nurse"

I would often correct them one way or another, but really there is only so much I can do.

Any female docs/med students in here ever get called nurse????
 
BTW, you people forget that PAs stand to loose the most from an oversupply of PAs. Yeah they celebrate how much easier it is to become a PA and how much easier their work schedule/job is, but that very dynamic is going to devalue their services in the long run.

An oversupply of midlevels will devalue anyone who does primary care. PA's, NP's, and MD's.

Not only that, I foresee specialty creep by the midlevels. Why can't an NP open an independent derm clinic after working with a derm doc for a few years?
 
An oversupply of midlevels will devalue anyone who does primary care. PA's, NP's, and MD's.

Not only that, I foresee specialty creep by the midlevels. Why can't an NP open an independent derm clinic after working with a derm doc for a few years?

That's the rub of this whole debate, mid-levels practicing medicine (unsupervised) without having gone through the process of medical school and residency. Saying that "experience" qualifies one to do this devalues the medical education of physicians, and that's where I and many others get upset.
 
Let's face it. Docs get upset by midlevels because they can take care of 90% of the cases. Most cases are routine. Yet, midlevels spend just a fraction of the time and cost as we do to get that right to practice. We understandably feel like idiots for taking the longer road. Unfortunately, the strain on Medicare and market realities mean that midlevels are here to stay. States will loosen laws to make it happen. There's no point in denying that and there's little that you can do about it. Medical education in this country is screwed up. It takes way too long and costs way too much. For the time being, the solution is that you have to move up the food chain and acquire knowledge in a specialty that a midlevel would not have mastered.
 
Let's face it. Docs get upset by midlevels because they can take care of 90% of the cases. Most cases are routine. Yet, midlevels spend just a fraction of the time and cost as we do to get that right to practice. We understandably feel like idiots for taking the longer road. Unfortunately, the strain on Medicare and market realities mean that midlevels are here to stay. States will loosen laws to make it happen. There's no point in denying that and there's little that you can do about it. Medical education in this country is screwed up. It takes way too long and costs way too much. For the time being, the solution is that you have to move up the food chain and acquire knowledge in a specialty that a midlevel would not have mastered.

From You Know Where:


...The question then becomes, do you need seven years or more of training to function as a physician? This is the 64-dollar question. As many of you will find out, apart from the legal requirements, a lot of medicine is fairly bread-and-butter and could be handled by a school nurse much less a PA. I have done several out-patient pediatric rotations and with the exception of a few interesting cases, it was nothing but viral gastroenteritis (the craps), viral upper respiratory infections (the coughs), or eczema (the itches). Not to mention "Well Child Checks" that could be done by a trained monkey which is why they have interns do them. Likewise, an otherwise healthy man with hypertension probably does not need your medical degree from Johns Hopkin and your residency training from Duke to have a couple of prescription written every six months.

On the other hand a lot of medicine is not bread and butter. Part of your training is learning to know your limitations and the scary thing about PAs and other mid-levels is that, having only sipped sparingly from the well of knowledge, their little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Things can get out of hand easily in medicine, either quickly because of mistakes made in acute interventions, or slowly as the result of bad judgement or mismanagement of chronic conditions. Physicians, for their part, are not immune from errors and bad decisions but imagine the danger from someone with a third of the formal training who gets in over his head and doesn't know enough to realize it except when it is too late.

I had a patient with a Pulmonary Embulus, for example, who despite a history of obesity, oral contraceptives, and smoking was diagnosed with "Viral Upper Respiratory Infection" by a PA in an urgent care clinic only hours before she was brought in by ambulance for severe shortness of breath. This is a pretty simple example and most PAs would pick up the not-so-subtle clues in the patient's history but there are thousands of permutations and combinations of symptoms and long formal training which includes didactics is definitely a major advantage. Whether this is recognized politically is another story. To a politician or anybody making public policy, "health care providors" are interchangeable components and one is as good as another to demonstrate a compassionate concern for univeral access to health care. It is also easy to make scapegoats out of "rich doctors," most of who are not actually rich, especially as the public by-and-large has no idea how much low-paid and no-paid training is required to make a doctor. My neighbors sneer at the state of my lawn and opine that a guy like me pulling in the proverbial six-figures could pay to have it mowed more often.

The other thing you're going to hear a lot from PAs is that they get better clinical training in PA school than you get in medical school. As evidence of this they will point to their greater facility with physical exams, blood draws, and other basic medical skills than you have as a third year medical student. Again, this is not comparing apples with apples. PA students learn practical clinical skills almost from the start of their training so they show up on the wards with a slight advantage. Medical students, on the other hand, learn practically no clinical skills during first and second year as these years are dedicated to basic science and general medical knowledge. By the end of fourth year your practical skills will be far beyond those of a PA student who only acutally does one year of clincal work compared to your two and, at least at the three medical centers where I have rotated with PAs, don't do call and work substantuially fewer hours than the medical students.

"Oh yeah," some PAs say, "But most of what you learn in first and second year of medical school is of no practical value and besides, you forget most of it."

As you know, I am not the biggest fan of medical training. And it is true that a knowledge of some esoteric topics like embryology is rarely, if ever, needed by the majority of physicians. But I have never regreted the many hours I spent learning these topics and I think it is the height of arrogance for both medical students and PAs to decide, based on their limited experience, what is necessary knowledge and what is not. Medical knowlege forms part of your deep medical personality and besides serving as a platform on which to build the knowledge that you should be acquiring for your whole medical career, also allows you to speak intelligently and authoritatively to an increasingly medically sophisticated public.

Besides, this particular sword cuts deeply both ways. Why stop at medical school if we want to eradicate useless knowledge? I'm sure I can ride aggresvely through the curriculum of PA school, nursing school, paramedic school, and any school you care to mention, slashing, burning, raping, and pillaging innocent knowledge from the curriculum with the abandon of a deranged mongol and the bread-and-butter patient would still get his prescription for Glucophage. Let's just do away with the whole deceptive edifice and recruit motivated and reasonably intelligent high school students to staff highly specialized low-level clinics in much the same way we fill positions in the fast food industry.

In short, while it is reasonable to worry about the encroachment of mid-levels into the practice of medicine, this is a political thing and not a reflection on the intensive and necessary training you are recieving....
 
For the time being, the solution is that you have to move up the food chain and acquire knowledge in a specialty that a midlevel would not have mastered.

I'm in medical school and I'm planning on going into family practice. I don't have any problem with either PAs or NPs and I think they serve a useful purpose in the medical system. I also agree with much of what Panda said regarding the differences between a PA/NP and an MD.
I'm not worried that NPs or PAs are going to replace the MD family practice doctor.

You could also argue that the dearth of family practice physicians has contributed to the increased space for NP/PAs.
 
I can't speak for Tired, but the problem I see in his/her experience is that the nure referenced the PA as 'doctor' and then PA failed to properly introduce herself. Irrespective of the qualifications of mid-levels, patients have the right to know who is providing their health-care.

agree- pts also need to be able to catch obvious things like nametags that say john smith, pa-c and introductions like " hi, I'm john, one of the pa's here"..I agree about the nurse and have told my nurses to either refer to me as a pa or provider, never a dr. they tend to say provider because at least on day shift, we are double covered with 1 md and 1 pa and the nurse doesn't now who will pick up the chart next so "provider" covers both of us. when I work alone at night they say, emedpa, our pa will be in to see you.
 
.....Part of your training is learning to know your limitations and the scary thing about PAs and other mid-levels is that, having only sipped sparingly from the well of knowledge, their little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.....

Uncle P-Bear,

I am sorry that you have had the experiences you have had and although I realize the futility of this discussion, as nothing on here will do anything but fuel your skewed fire, the statements above have compelled me to respond yet again.

It is extremely narrow minded and ignorant of you to make a blanket statement implying that PA's do not know their limitations. You have not worked with anywhere near anything approaching a sliver of PAs currently working in the US today, so you are not qualified to make broad statements like the ones above.

PAs are very clearly taught to recognize their own limitations throughout their education. I can recall numerous situations when interns and residents thought they could handle a situation only to realize they, too, were in over their head, as you alluded to in your post. You "forgive" these MDs their mistakes, so why must you continue to hold all PAs accountable for a handful of mistakes made by a few?

Seriously, what do you think PAs do during their formal and clinical training? Braid each others hair and write "I HEART Dr. Mc Dreamy" on our Trapper Keepers? Although I am a bit concerned that the rapid expansion of PA schools may have hurt the quality of graduates some--the same argument made time and time again for DO schools--PA school is a lot of freaking work!! And far and away MOST of the knowledge I relied on in a day-to-day basis was that which I learned in clinical practice, after graduation. Sound familiar? That is why all MDs require residency to practice. New PA grads make mistakes, just like interns. These mistakes are going to have much greater implications if someone with more experience is not watching over them. In residency, an intern is told to call-call-call their senior resident, since it is often cited that the senior resident bears the responsibility to the patient and will be the one getting yelled at by the attending. Why not hold the supervising physician more responsible for their PAs?
 
So very true, but in my experience working as a PA before I went to medical school, I wore a lab coat with my name and "PA-C" embroidered on it, a name badge with my name and "PA-C" and "physician assistant" written out below that, always introduced myself as "Bitsy 3221, the PA (or physician assistant)" and proceeded along my exam/procedure/etc. After all was said and done, about a third said "thanks, Bitsy", a third said "thanks, doc" and a third said "thanks, nurse"

I would often correct them one way or another, but really there is only so much I can do.

Any female docs/med students in here ever get called nurse????

agree...lots of pts just don't get it:
my name tag says, pa-c
under that is says emergency medicine physician assistant in letters bigger than my name
my scripts say pa-c and physician assistant on them
my after visit summaries say pa-c and physician assistant on them
I have a pin on my lab coat that says"society of emergency medicine pa's"
the nurse says the pa will be in to see you in a minute
I say " hi, I'm emedpa, one of the emergency medicine pa's here"

after all that what do pts say? thanks doc.......
 
You could also argue that the dearth of family practice physicians has contributed to the increased space for NP/PAs.

That's right. Med students are worried about the future of primary care. Therefore, more and more of them go into specialties. These specialists tend to aggregate around big cities because that's where the higher pay is. This creates a need in primary care providers, especially in the rural areas. Seizing an opportunity, midlevels fill that need. States loosen laws to give midlevels more autonomy so they can practice independently in rural areas. But that is a slippery slope because once you give them more authority they won't give it back and then they start to creep into specialties. Eventually, they will open up their own independent practices. It's like opening a Pandora's box.

If more people went into primary care and more docs would live in rural communities, you wouldn't hear about the impending "primary care crisis" in this country. There won't be a crisis. Just pump out more midlevels.
 
STOP judging people by the letters after their name.

I'm sorry, If I have anything more than a middle ear infection, I WILL have to judge the provider by the letters after their name to ensure that I'm getting the best care by the person who is, on paper, the most knowledgeable. I suppose a lot of this has to do with the vast inconsistency possible amongst the midlevels. I was rounding with a huge team recently, and what scared me is that I knew more about minimal change disease than the PA on the team. And I'm sure there are PA's who have Robbins memorized back and front, but the dependability of 4 years med school + 3-7 years residency/fellowship isn't there, so I have to go by the letters after the name.
 
agree...lots of pts just don't get it:
my name tag says, pa-c
under that is says emergency medicine physician assistant in letters bigger than my name
my scripts say pa-c and physician assistant on them
my after visit summaries say pa-c and physician assistant on them
I have a pin on my lab coat that says"society of emergency medicine pa's"
the nurse says the pa will be in to see you in a minute
I say " hi, I'm emedpa, one of the emergency medicine pa's here"

after all that what do pts say? thanks doc.......

You feed the cycle. Sure, patients can read and so on, but they might not know the distinction between a PA and a doctor. When they say "thanks doc" perhaps you should clear that up... given that you've got more than 20 years of experience and probably do a good job, this would only help your profession. Patients would think to themselves, "wow, this physician assistant has provided me with great care, despite the fact that he is not a physician" and you'd build the trust for your midlevel colleagues.
 
Top