New grad job-hunting tips

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The fact that it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I know, I just meant I was surprised since every place I've interviewed at has offered a working interview, usually a couple hours where you basically shadow one of the other techs and help out with minor stuff. I've just never heard that it was illegal.

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A couple hours if you're not actually doing something you should be paid to do shouldn't be illegal. That's just a part of the interview. But when you have someone come in for an actual working interview, they should be compensated for their time legally in many states.
 
A couple hours if you're not actually doing something you should be paid to do shouldn't be illegal. That's just a part of the interview. But when you have someone come in for an actual working interview, they should be compensated for their time legally in many states.
Oh ok, so you're talking more like if they had someone come in to basically do the job they are interviewing for. That makes sense.
 
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Wait, really? Maybe it's different for vet jobs but I have done working interviews for tech jobs...

Working interviews are legal, but the person must be paid (US federal labor law).........but, as Minnerbelle said, some people will try to do it, even if it is illegal, counting on the fact most people don't know the law.
 
A working (unpaid) interview is also probably illegal.


A large proportion of new grads leave their first job after a year, and I'm pretty sure most of them are neither crazy nor difficult to get along with. A bad choice? Yup, because finding a good fit is a difficult thing, and because a lot of jobs with high turnover (i.e. new grad mills) are always hiring. It's difficult to shop for something you've never bought before (in this case, a veterinary job).

You make it sound like it's always the new grad's fault, when just as often, it's the employer's fault.


A working unpaid interview where you spend the day, observing what is going on, participating in the exams (giving a listen, palpating, but never being the doctor of record) isn't illegal. If it is somewhere, please cite specific laws as I would truly like to know.

As regards your last comment, regarding fault, re-read the original post and yes employers can and are as fault as well.

The rest is not directed specifically at CalliopeDVM but more of a general overview of things from our perspective and hoping for understanding and insights.

In our humble opinion, the day long interview is a very good way of both parties getting the best possible idea of the culture of the workplace, the personalities of employer and employee, competency of staff, etc. Hiding a crazy employment environment across an 8 hour day is hard to do, as is hiding all of your worst traits as a prospective employee, there are always signs.

Our hiring process:

We are very clear with each prospect that makes it to the phone interview stage about many things, we do two: first with the practice manager (me), one with the medical director (owner - a 20 year VMD) usually on different days, each usually ends up of taking an hour - if it is going well.

If I'm suitably impressed with your personality, apparent work ethic, client handling skills and some discussion of medical knowledge as it relates to your ability to communicate an overall plan to a client, then you get to speak with the medical director who does the same thing, also discusses medical philosophy and our way of dealing with clients: high communication, high service, high quality medicine (as close to internal medicine referral standard as possible). Referrals to specialists are fine.

We make it clear that this is veterinary medicine. We schedule for a normal day (5 - 8 hours hopefully or 4 - 10 hour days), 30 minute appointments but stuff happens sometimes toward the end of the day and don't plan on getting off at the 8 or 10 hour mark. If you get behind, you need to finish up, get your charts done, that day, before you go home, no stacks of un-done chart here. We also make it clear that we are looking for an intelligent, pleasant person, who wants to contribute, wants to learn, has a good work ethic, that we are really fairly reasonable people, are willing to listen to ideas and suggestions, open to discussions of almost anything, are willing to share almost anything about the business. We point out that if you are scheduled for an 8 hour day, that means you are at work for 8 hours, plus time off for lunch (30 minutes or an hour), plus your commute time which means in this area you could be away from home 10 1/2 plus hours each day (or more) depending on where your choose to live.

Only then might we suggest an in-person interview which is where the day long visit (working interview) comes in.
You pay your travel - shows some level of commitment.
We take you to lunch as part of this process.

If we like you, we make an offer, and if you like us, we settle on terms and send you the contract for review. All of the below people had contracts. Comment: The contract has escape clauses for both parties. FYI: No contract can overcome any lack of good will from either party. We assume you have good intent, as do we.

BTW: You get lots of mentoring from the medical director and the staff - way more than most places give.

We have two new grads, one almost a year now and one three month in, who are great, we hope they stay forever and that we can continue to find them professional growth. We understand that for various reasons people might want to leave or become unhappy with some aspects of their job. We say straight up, if you are unhappy about something, please let us know and see if we can find a solution. We'd like an open discussion and not learn abruptly one day that you are resigning.

Oh for those relocated, we offered many suggestions about the area as to where to live and where they might find an area that might fit their interests.

In short, we bend every effort to find and keep a good fit.

Some more specific comments regarding actual events (no names used):

Our first hire out of a well regarded school said they were very flexible, after hours were no problem if needed. Turned out they were a loose cannon, showed up day one in inappropriate dress and didn't realize it, had to be told how to dress (now we are specific about dress), was married to a spouse whose father was a vet. That spouse resented (hated) their father for having to work long hours at his own practice. Needless to say, this cause issues when the new hire was always running way behind and getting out late because they were not very organized in their work - we tried to help with this. Staff was always having to clean up their messes. All this got worse as time progressed, was chaotic, let them go in less than two months. Sad because their medicine was fine.

Second hire was a vet who had a couple of years experience Banfield and a few other places as relief. A high energy person who was a decent vet. Had some issues with getting behind but this improved as we discussed the specifics how each appointment went. A debriefing if you will. The fatal flaw was authority figure issues. Would not speak to owner (medical director) after being told they were flat out wrong about something, would barely interact. Not a workable situation, tried to make it work, had to let her go after a couple of months. This person later said it was the best job they ever had.

Number 3 is our (almost) one year vet - doing great, likes the job.

Number 4 was back and forth about being interested, had good references from mentors, etc. Had some stated interest in public policy aspects of vet medicine. Came for interview, we offered position and accepted, moved to area with fiance who already had a job in the area. Both new grads. On day one, called at 8am, said they had a flat tire could make it in by 11am to Noon. Sigh. Fine. Understand, stuff happens. Then we find was completely uncomfortable with doing anything, e.g. wanted to see how medical director did vaccines before doing it themselves. Almost had a heart attack on day two when asked to visit a nearby boarding facility as a house call for dog with apparent kennel cough (They were having an outbreak at the time). Medical director told them exactly what to do. Day Three called up and resigned, saying we were unprofessional, etc. We think the flat tire was a conflicting interview for the job they really wanted and was offered the job. We think only took our job as fiance already had job in area and choose to live one hour away from practice (not a good sign).

Number 5 is three months in, doing well, likes job more than expected.

Number 6 lasted less than two months. Saw lots of cats and dogs with middle ear infections that no one else saw. Liked Clavamox for those. Cat with slightly elevated BUN, normal creatinine, would put on Purina NF, maintained they had kidney disease, their method of client communication and characterizing a cats status lead two clients to euthanize. Hire Number 5 was very upset with hire Number 6 as Number 5 spent the weekend syringe feeding the hospitalized cat who was on IV fluids and was starting to improve. Number 6 decided to "tell the client the truth" and the cat was euthanized.

At that point, we asked ourselves and Number 3 and 5, would we be comfortable having Number 6 treat our personal pets. Answer: no. Number 6 was fired. Sigh.
At a personal level, we liked Number 6.

As an aside: Number 5 was on that weekend in case anything was in the hospital or the boarding facility called. The medical director is in the rotation as well - fair is fair.

So, we try as best we can to find a good fit and have learned more and more quickly to recognize as bad fit and end it quickly to the long term benefit of all involved. Hiring is not easy especially if you care about more than a hiring a body with a pulse.
 
Buy your own liability insurance and have your employer reimburse you. Do not rely on anyone to get it/pay it for you.
AVMA PLIT with license defense is a very good idea. You should pay for it yourself and try to have your employer reimburse you. As the employer, I'd require any insurance to have certain features found in the AVMA PLIT stuff:

E.g. no requirement to settle from the insurance company, license defense option.
 
A working unpaid interview where you spend the day, observing what is going on, participating in the exams (giving a listen, palpating, but never being the doctor of record) isn't illegal. If it is somewhere, please cite specific laws as I would truly like to know.

On a federal level, the Fair Labor Standards Act probably applies - most clinics in the US are large enough (grosses more than or equal to $500K), and then there may be additional state regulations. The law does not even allow them to volunteer.
 
There have been many discussions on VIN about legalities of paid/nonpaid working interviews. Have your medical director look into it. I've been on several day long working interviews unpaid, and it honestly didn't matter to me and it is very common.

Didn't read through your long post about your clinic's hiring process or details about your hires and your opinions as I really don't care. But i will say that even with a day long working interview there can be a ton of things hidden on both sides. Things change as well. Bad fits don't necessarily manifest until a few months into the job. Particularly with new grads who are not only just starting to define their practice styles, but what that good fit might be like for them. There are so many horrible employers out there in the veterinary world. With most practices being small businesses, it is very difficult to manage HR issues. Most of the time, even if employers are doing things that are illegal and likely subject to labor board censure, an employee's only recourse is to suck it up, quit and move on, put in a labor board complaint, or sue the employer. Most of the time people toggle between options 1 and 2, as those are the paths of least resistance.
 
New tip: make sure the company that hires you can afford to keep you. If you are hired by a fairly new practice that thinks they have enough business coming in to need a new vet, try to find a polite way to look at how booked their days are and see the average invoices from recent visits because the clientele may not be used to modern medicine costs. Just learned this lesson the hard way after being laid off as a cost-cutting measure, which sucks because I had built up a nice clientele base with great documented reviews and was having regular days of full-booked appointment schedules. I really liked my clients, assistants, technicians, and the other doctors, but the money people from the management corporation can have significant input on HR decisions. :-(
 
New tip: make sure the company that hires you can afford to keep you. If you are hired by a fairly new practice that thinks they have enough business coming in to need a new vet, try to find a polite way to look at how booked their days are and see the average invoices from recent visits because the clientele may not be used to modern medicine costs. Just learned this lesson the hard way after being laid off as a cost-cutting measure, which sucks because I had built up a nice clientele base with great documented reviews and was having regular days of full-booked appointment schedules. I really liked my clients, assistants, technicians, and the other doctors, but the money people from the management corporation can have significant input on HR decisions. :-(

Awww. :( That sucks RRT. Sorry to hear it. Hope the job search goes well ... really sucks worse since you liked it there. :(
 
The only thing that's black and white in my mind is whether or not you sign something with the intention of not honouring it. That's all I've been saying from the start.......if you want to be an ethical vet, you have to start out ethically too, and that means having the best intentions when you sign a contract (i.e. to honour that contract).

Yes, people do things out of fear of losing their job (or not getting that job), but they still have to accept the decision they made and the consequences it will hold. To me, accepting the consequences of your decisions (even decisions made with imperfect information) is part of being a decent adult and showing some moral character. Yes, there are a lot of crappy deals (and crappy bosses) out there. We've all had them, at one point or another, in our lives. It varies with supply and demand, and with the general state of the economy.
contracts have nothing to do with ethics. I don't see how you can equate the two.
If you sign a contract, you are not signing your soul. You are agreeing to do something, and there are consequences for each side if failing to live up to it.
As long as you are ok with the consequences, then "breaking a contract" is perfectly ethical. It is a business decision, not an ethical one.

Now if you sign a contract in bad faith, not intending to do the work, that is another story, but deciding to ignore a clause, or later on deciding not to fulfill the contract is perfectly ethical.

Too many people misunderstand the purpose of a contract, and it has nothing to do with being a good person. (now, if you want to base your own moral goodness on fulfilling your word/contracts, that is a personal decision, but it is not necessarily a systematic ethical one).
 
Now if you sign a contract in bad faith, not intending to do the work, that is another story, but deciding to ignore a clause, or later on deciding not to fulfill the contract is perfectly ethical.

What I said was that signing a contract you intend to dishonour (or ignore any part of) is unethical - pretty much what you call "in bad faith". Essentially, making a promise you don't intend to keep in unethical, which is not the same as saying that breaking your promise is always unethical.

I'm not equating contracts with ethics, I'm equating making a agreement with ethical behaviour. When we sign a contract, we agree to accept certain expectations and responsibilities, and that's the point where ethics comes into things - not in the contract, but in one's intent when signing it. Because, if you don't have that intent when signing it, you are (to use the business phrase) acting in bad faith.

And, regardless, I would hope a medical professional has a higher standard of ethics than is required by law. The fact that something is legal does not make it right.
 
What I said was that signing a contract you intend to dishonour (or ignore any part of) is unethical - pretty much what you call "in bad faith". Essentially, making a promise you don't intend to keep in unethical, which is not the same as saying that breaking your promise is always unethical.

I'm not equating contracts with ethics, I'm equating making a agreement with ethical behaviour. When we sign a contract, we agree to accept certain expectations and responsibilities, and that's the point where ethics comes into things - not in the contract, but in one's intent when signing it. Because, if you don't have that intent when signing it, you are (to use the business phrase) acting in bad faith.

And, regardless, I would hope a medical professional has a higher standard of ethics than is required by law. The fact that something is legal does not make it right.
we're not THAT far apart, but in general, I don't think a contract is an ethical matter.

Ethics in vet med is pretty important to me, but mainly in the treatment of animals and clients. I don't care if my vet violates his contract with his boss, especially as most of those contracts have many unenforceable parts, and are one-sided. In fact, violating the contract could be an extremely ethical decision, and I can think of many cases where that is true.
 
Ethics in vet med is pretty important to me, but mainly in the treatment of animals and clients. I don't care if my vet violates his contract with his boss, especially as most of those contracts have many unenforceable parts, and are one-sided. In fact, violating the contract could be an extremely ethical decision, and I can think of many cases where that is true.

Then we're VERY far off. I don't think it's right or laudable to limit ethical behaviour to only part of what you do. Being ethical with clients and not with your supervisors or employers is, frankly, crappy behaviour that goes beyond violating a contract.......It indicates that the vet is willing to pick and choose when he/she wants to act ethically, behaving ethically only when it benefits him/her, and not simply because behaving ethically is the right thing to do. Ethical behaviour is ethical behaviour, whether it involves interaction with clients, coworkers, other vets, your boss, your patients, or patients. It's not like a restaurant menu where you choose one from column A, one from column B, and disregard all the others because you don't like them.

If you think a contract is one sided or has unenforceable parts, negotiate or don't sign it. Or accept the terms and sign it. Or act unethically and sign something in bad faith, but don't pretend it's OK to be an unethical vet.
 
As an employer, anyone who job hops (stays less than a year) is:
either is a very difficult employee with unrealistic expectations (probably never really had any jobs before getting out of school)
Crazy
Or sadly picked poor employers

Any prospective employer should be willing to let a prospective employee speak privately with any vet on staff as part of the interview process either in person or on the phone.
A working (unpaid) interview is always a good idea, as you will get a sense of the culture of the place.


Speaking as a vet who has been out of school for well over a decade, there are A LOT of "poor employers" in veterinary medicine. Emotional abuse and completely unreasonable expectations abound in this field. I stayed over three years at my first job out of vet school and I was told that I set the record for vet associates at that place. Everyone else had left after one year, except for one woman who left after 6 weeks! I stayed much longer than I should have and only left when I started to have chest pains everyday on the drive into work from stress alone. I had a boss who would lose his cool at the slightest provocation - you never knew when it would happen - he would scream, throw things, swear, etc., sometimes for an hour or more. He punched a brand new refrigerator and left a dent in the door once when he was mad at a vet assistant about something and even tore the front part of a drawer off when he was upset another time. Once he got upset while doing a surgery and threw a hemostat across the room that almost got me in the eye (and I wasn't even the source of his anger - he just didn't bother to look where he was throwing). The main reason new vet associates leave is because they have discovered that their employers are wackadoos and they just cannot deal with them anymore.
 
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