Nephrology is Dead - stay away

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This is not meant to be disrespectful. But I actually feel sad for those who are applying to nephrology this year. I know they are trying to escape a hospitalist career. But they will get exploited in fellowship, then again in private practice. I've been there before. It's very alluring when big name academic programs are begging you to join when the same IM residency at the same program will never give you a chance. Sometimes people just need to take a step back and use common sense and they will see the big red flag.

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this exploitation in terms of private practice and Neph fellowship is a norm and is not going to change , Neph programs have simply failed to upgrade their training curriculum and still focused on GN which a average neph fellow sees few times a year, how many programs have integrated POCUS or advance echo with their training for hemodialysis patients ? Most Neph fellows cant even do temp HD catheters because faculty is either Lazy or incapable to do so , they have given up their ground and now suffering &
how many programs have actually integrated interventional Neph training during fellowship ?

so when a subspecialty gives up ground over the few procedures they possess that results in a inevitable decline in interest

so Outdated folks at ASN are responsible for this demise and their is no wave of change or ingenuity , the so called Kidney X project is a up in the air and a fake way of luring candidates .
 
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this exploitation in terms of private practice and Neph fellowship is a norm and is not going to change , Neph programs have simply failed to upgrade their training curriculum and still focused on GN which a average neph fellow sees few times a year, how many programs have integrated POCUS or advance echo with their training for hemodialysis patients ? Most Neph fellows cant even do temp HD catheters because faculty is either Lazy or incapable to do so , they have given up their ground and now suffering &
how many programs have actually integrated interventional Neph training during fellowship ?

so when a subspecialty gives up ground over the few procedures they possess that results in a inevitable decline in interest

so Outdated folks at ASN are responsible for this demise and their is no wave of change or ingenuity , the so called Kidney X project is a up in the air and a fake way of luring candidates .

The issue is that their is no incentive for nephrology programs to change. There are always a desperate IMGs who are willing to sign on to take your night calls and do your scut work. Why put in the work to change anything? You and everyone else in the IM department know nephrology is scraping the bottom. The talent pool coming into nephrology are the bottom of barrel, so why even put in the effort. How many of these grads are even gonna practice nephrology long term anyways? Your job is to lure unsuspecting to resident into nephrology so that you can maintain your comfortable lifestyle. Who cares where they end up.
 
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The issue is that their is no incentive for nephrology programs to change. There are always a desperate IMGs who are willing to sign on to take your night calls and do your scut work. Why put in the work to change anything? You and everyone else in the IM department know nephrology is scraping the bottom. The talent pool coming into nephrology are the bottom of barrel, so why even put in the effort. How many of these grads are even gonna practice nephrology long term anyways? Your job is to lure unsuspecting to resident into nephrology so that you can maintain your comfortable lifestyle. Who cares where they end up.
I agree with what you said , but if they are trying to cheat candidates then candidates have gotten smarter too , thth why you see such low no of applicants , the residency programs are already giving hard time to IMG who have done Neph fellowship wo residency and people coming from other places for Neph fellowship are simply not at par

The way programs are functioning isnt gonna increase the pool of candidates to a large extent
 
I agree with what you said , but if they are trying to cheat candidates then candidates have gotten smarter too , thth why you see such low no of applicants , the residency programs are already giving hard time to IMG who have done Neph fellowship wo residency and people coming from other places for Neph fellowship are simply not at par

The way programs are functioning isnt gonna increase the pool of candidates to a large extent

Have candidates really gotten smarter? There's still plenty of desperate IMGs who sign on to do nephrology despite all the red flags. The issue is that residents(still in academia) are not seeing the huge number of nephrologists in private practice who have quit to take hospitalist jobs. People, especially foreign grads, always think subspecialize in something is always better than general IM. They will pay the financial price years later, but for now, relish in the fact that big name academic programs will take you and give you hope that there is a future.
 
If you look at the few hundred applicants and the large no of unfilled spots the applicants later on drop out of Nephrology few years down the road , few hundred IMG 's applying in Neph will not revive it , the big programs will always be able to attract candidates , its the large no of mid tier programs which will perish
 
If you look at the few hundred applicants and the large no of unfilled spots the applicants later on drop out of Nephrology few years down the road , few hundred IMG 's applying in Neph will not revive it , the big programs will always be able to attract candidates , its the large no of mid tier programs which will perish
You underestimate the resourcefulness of smaller programs to survive. Majority of unfilled programs fill through the scramble. Either by a burned out hospitalist or those IMGs without a US residency hoping to get in the door. So programs still survive irregardless of the quality of grads they produce or whether the market needs this many graduates. I just find it despicable that programs prey on the labor of the desperate and defenseless
 
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I believe everything you have been saying since I have heard others with similar Nephro stories.

I am curious though where the salaries come from that Medscape comes out with every year because I believe it is typically in the >300K range which is definitely higher than IM.

Are these the more established Nephros who are reporting these salaries?
There is no Nephrology job that will pay you 300 k !! You will make that much money once or if you have a ton of dialysis patients or you see 30-40 patients everyday in clinic. Typical Nephrology salary is around 180k to start with !! Comin from a guy who just did a few interviews !!
 
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If you guys think some of these practices in nephrology fellowship is shady, just wait until you get into private practice. Exploitation at all new levels that you will cry yourself to sleep every night. I've seen it happen to many of my neph friends and it's like horror movie happening over and over again. The issue lies in that starting salary is 200k/year, and your working really hard with no guarantees that you will be given partnership after x number of years. A lot of groups take advantage of that and it's even more common today because practice revenue is declining overall. Senior partners don't want to share. Or you would be given partnership, but then the senior partners don't share the JV and medical directorship money, so you might as be a hospitalist anyways. Graduating fellows walk into a trap, get exploited for couple of years, quit nephrology to take a hospitalist job. Classic example.
Everything you say is true !! Except for the 200K .. it is even lower than that !! Most practices offer 180k and if they can't find a physician will just hire a NP. It is quite funny to see seasoned IMG hospitalists coming to do Nephrology fellowship with hopes of making more money and in a few years going back to their old jobs !
 
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Seems like a typical NP/PA who starts their career in their mid 20s will become wealthier than an average nephrologist/ID doc with a better lifestyle and job flexibility.
 
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Seems like a typical NP/PA who starts their career in their mid 20s will become wealthier than an average nephrologist/ID doc with a better lifestyle and job flexibility.

you see how close you were to falling for this trap. Nephrologists are not going to tell you what they really think of their specialty due to pride/humiliation. Academics will say anything to get you to sign on. You just need to have self awareness and reason out that noncompetitive specialties are not worth your time.
 
There is no Nephrology job that will pay you 300 k !! You will make that much money once or if you have a ton of dialysis patients or you see 30-40 patients everyday in clinic. Typical Nephrology salary is around 180k to start with !! Comin from a guy who just did a few interviews !!

Sounds like realities of private practice is much worse that what you had expected. I bet when you interviewed as an applicant, the academic nephrologists painted this rosy picture of nephrology and how nephrologist made a lot of money, but people just misunderstood the specialty and that's why applicant ratio was low. I know because I was given the same spin. I think it would be helpful for the SDN community to know what you were fed as an applicant vs realities on the ground right now.
 
there are Nephrology Jobs in private practice which do pay you around 300 k , this happens after a few years of being a junior partner ( or precisely porter , lol !!!) and in those years 2,3 or 5 one is treated like an intern , working on average 24-26 days a month with truck loads of patients and driving to multiple HD units , if you look at work to income ratio its horrible and even after becoming a partner the no of working days for an average nephrologist are way higher than other subspecialties with a wide work to income ratio

so its not the number you should look at its the no of hours or days one works and generates revenue :))

An average hospitalist salary is 250 for 7/7 off schedule , with just 4 extra shifts per month , a hospitalist can easily generate 90-100k /yr
thts still 19-20 days per month with 325-350 k/yr

Nephrology Aint gonna get you close to that
 
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I hope so , but programs will always find desperate candidates unfortunately
 
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What I find sinister about this specialty is that fellowship programs use deception to hide the real problems with this specialty. There are many specialties who are open about the fact that they don’t make a lot of money or the lifestyle is bad. Neph actually tries to hide this. They will point to how well the top 10% of earners are doing. Well, these people are in established group, took them decades to build up dialysis unit JVs and real estate investments. The average nephrologist will not come close to that; and certainly unrealistic for a new grad to achieve this today even after putting in years of hard work. The powers to be are still holding onto the past and not ready to have a realistic conversation On addressing oversupply issues and reimbursement challenges. The applicants going into nephrology are living on hopium. Everyone has a disillusioned sense of reality but the people who really get hurt are the grads when they come out and realize it was a mistake. I’ve seen this over and over again
 
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So a brief update -
I currently run a two physician practice. My partner is an internist and I also perform a fair amount of general medicine . I primarily run a pulmonary practice . But because I have my neph board cert , I’ve been able to get provider insurance coverage for nephrology consultation . I primarily see non HD ckd , nephrolothiasis , and resistant hypertension . The cpt billing codes are rather generous . Besides the office code , I can bill for pocus of kidneys (got cert from Emory) and also also utilize the ckd education codes , 24hr Abpm, remote monitoring for BP.
As a result I get paid almost the same as my pulm consults and pft lab procedures .

The one caveat is I am piggybacking my renal practice onto my general medicine practice and pulm practice . Without piggybacking , it would be exceedingly difficult to make ends meet doing renal non HD only . Also on inquiry , I have been shut out of all HD privileges at the local hospitals and hd centers. Turf wars and revenue no doubt .

renal is not in short supply in a large metro area . If you want to live in a big metro area , goodrenal jobs are limited

on the flip side , if you open a primary care practice then piggyback renal onto it , it can still be extra revenue and be worth something . I just take care of ckd up until HD access then set em up with an academic neph for hd . Then I keep seeing them afterward for primary (or pulm in my case )

of course this entails launching your own practice . Need savings for this in the current day and age
 
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What I find sinister about this specialty is that fellowship programs use deception to hide the real problems with this specialty. There are many specialties who are open about the fact that they don’t make a lot of money or the lifestyle is bad. Neph actually tries to hide this. They will point to how well the top 10% of earners are doing. Well, these people are in established group, took them decades to build up dialysis unit JVs and real estate investments. The average nephrologist will not come close to that; and certainly unrealistic for a new grad to achieve this today even after putting in years of hard work. The powers to be are still holding onto the past and not ready to have a realistic conversation On addressing oversupply issues and reimbursement challenges. The applicants going into nephrology are living on hopium. Everyone has a disillusioned sense of reality but the people who really get hurt are the grads when they come out and realize it was a mistake. I’ve seen this over and over againye
Those ASN commentary about the future of nephrology and how future nephrologists “will find the joy and love for the field as their predecessors “ by dinosaurs like Dr Glassock (though he is a very accomplished academician) really show how out of touch and our date the leadership is .
 
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So a brief update -
I currently run a two physician practice. My partner is an internist and I also perform a fair amount of general medicine . I primarily run a pulmonary practice . But because I have my neph board cert , I’ve been able to get provider insurance coverage for nephrology consultation . I primarily see non HD ckd , nephrolothiasis , and resistant hypertension . The cpt billing codes are rather generous . Besides the office code , I can bill for pocus of kidneys (got cert from Emory) and also also utilize the ckd education codes , 24hr Abpm, remote monitoring for BP.
As a result I get paid almost the same as my pulm consults and pft lab procedures .

The one caveat is I am piggybacking my renal practice onto my general medicine practice and pulm practice . Without piggybacking , it would be exceedingly difficult to make ends meet doing renal non HD only . Also on inquiry , I have been shut out of all HD privileges at the local hospitals and hd centers. Turf wars and revenue no doubt .

renal is not in short supply in a large metro area . If you want to live in a big metro area , goodrenal jobs are limited

on the flip side , if you open a primary care practice then piggyback renal onto it , it can still be extra revenue and be worth something . I just take care of ckd up until HD access then set em up with an academic neph for hd . Then I keep seeing them afterward for primary (or pulm in my case )

of course this entails launching your own practice . Need savings for this in the current day and age
Out of curiosity. Your friends who graduated from neph around the same time as you, how many are still doing neph and how many have left the specialty?
 
Out of curiosity. Your friends who graduated from neph around the same time as you, how many are still doing neph and how many have left the specialty?
Well just speaking of my renal Cofellows -
The two fellows one year ahead of me -
one got CCM and now works exclusively as CCM. He got a side gig at that hospital doing weekend coverage for the in hospital renal group as per diem work when he’s not assigned to icu - but he’s not allowed to keep Bill as private - he gets an hourly wage

the other got obesity med certified (via cme ) and now does a mix of primary care , obesity medicine , and non HD nephrology - again as a piggyback to IM

my cofellow is got a faculty job as neph at her prior residency institution (busy nyc community hospital) . Then they director of neph quit and she’s the director now . Unclear what that pays . She got that job via connections (not a bad thing )

the two one year below me
One quit neph entirely and is now a hospitalist - all of the aforementioned reasons you mentioned
The second one was already a hospitalist before and did neph fellowship at age 40 . He was planning to specialize and then start private practice with a group of other physicians (of different specialties ) so they could all refer patients to each other . He has not taken off just yet . Still doing hospitalist work .

moral of the story is the recent neph grad will need to piggyback neph to IM or something else to make it value added . Expecting to be a classic nephrologist and profitable is not gonna happen .
 
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Well just speaking of my renal Cofellows -
The two fellows one year ahead of me -
one got CCM and now works exclusively as CCM. He got a side gig at that hospital doing weekend coverage for the in hospital renal group as per diem work when he’s not assigned to icu - but he’s not allowed to keep Bill as private - he gets an hourly wage

the other got obesity med certified (via cme ) and now does a mix of primary care , obesity medicine , and non HD nephrology - again as a piggyback to IM

my cofellow is got a faculty job as neph at her prior residency institution (busy nyc community hospital) . Then they director of neph quit and she’s the director now . Unclear what that pays . She got that job via connections (not a bad thing )

the two one year below me
One quit neph entirely and is now a hospitalist - all of the aforementioned reasons you mentioned
The second one was already a hospitalist before and did neph fellowship at age 40 . He was planning to specialize and then start private practice with a group of other physicians (of different specialties ) so they could all refer patients to each other . He has not taken off just yet . Still doing hospitalist work .

moral of the story is the recent neph grad will need to piggyback neph to IM or something else to make it value added . Expecting to be a classic nephrologist and profitable is not gonna happen .

I bet when your cofellows applied to nephrology, the academics didn’t tell them that they were gonna end up back as hospitalists. This is what I mean when I say fellowship programs will lie to you about how bad private practice is. Nephrology is such a great opportunity that positions are unfilled? Takes real mental gymnastics to square that hole.
 
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I bet when your cofellows applied to nephrology, the academics didn’t tell them that they were gonna end up back as hospitalists. This is what I mean when I say fellowship programs will lie to you about how bad private practice is. Nephrology is such a great opportunity that positions are unfilled? Takes real mental gymnastics to square that hole.
Yep you are 100% right on all of your points . The program for renal I went to didn’t even match fully . They had to scramble to fill other spots .
When the scramble candidates would come , the PD would sell the program so hard about the “didactics, procedural opportunities , research opportunities , transplant rotations , crrt and plex , and being a true partner in the icu .” To the PDs credit , attempts were made to integrate these things . Frequent rounds with the IR attendings on vascular access , radiology on renal imaging , doing our own renal biopsies , biopsy conferences , and having the vascular or icu team supervise femoral HD carbs ... but with the 25-30 consults follow ups per day (we were not allowed to skip notes even in mundane items for billing / revenue reasons ) , there was hardly any time to integrate those items into the workflow.

Also the PD would cite the great private practice job Rate. Again with no data about the horrors that follow .

bottom line is the renal fellowships are trying their best to make things better . But the (good) jobs out there are just not there because HD is so territorial and privileges given out on a who do you know basis .

therefore , unless you love HD so much , it’s more practical for a neph graduate to give up the HD and piggyback non HD renal to IM. Now I understand not everyone has the capital to launch a practice . At the very least you can negotiate a hospitalist or internist job and just address all non HD renal issues .. bill more problems and time spent ... and increasing those RVUs . 99214 and 99215 never seemed so easy when you are hammering out 12 problems per patient . Also you can go do the Emory course - get certified for renal sono (this isn’t mandatory to bill but would be a good lawsuit safeguard ) - and there you go . You got your own equivalent to echo for cardiologists . Do 24aBPM and you shave your holter equivalent . Set up tele monitoring with BP using the remote care cpt codes and that’s something else . Get some dietary stuff and talk and extra 15 minutes and bill the Medicare G code for ckd education . Now your billing patterns begin to parallel a gen cardiologist . Revenue / RVU can be nickel and dimed .
 
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I’m an outsider, but do yall really think that nephrology should be able to place HD catheters? Seems like things like those are a time sink and aren’t really increase in career goals. Same with POCUS. POCUS is quick and dirty till formal imaging becomes available.
 
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I’m an outsider, but do yall really think that nephrology should be able to place HD catheters? Seems like things like those are a time sink and aren’t really increase in career goals. Same with POCUS. POCUS is quick and dirty till formal imaging becomes available.

Honestly it is a time sink . So it’s not really for routine use . Although there will be those weekend calls in which IR is no available and the ICU team is swamped . You could call the gen surgeon on call for help . But there’s gonna be that weekend in which the neph is gonna have to wait hours and hours and hours before access is ready . By the book , the neph attending (or fellow ) needs to be present for all HD at least a part of it to bill for it . Who knows how well this is really enforced when there are no fellows around . In those cases a quick fem line dialyze and remove and then have IR place one on Monday .

the biggest barrier to having renal fellows doing lines is renal attendings lack of malpractice coverage . It’s totally cool if the renal fellow does it under the watch of the icu attending in the unit if this is coordinated and agreed upon ahead of time . But on the floors , renal attendings usually may not have central line coverage.
 
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Yep you are 100% right on all of your points . The program for renal I went to didn’t even match fully . They had to scramble to fill other spots .
When the scramble candidates would come , the PD would sell the program so hard about the “didactics, procedural opportunities , research opportunities , transplant rotations , crrt and plex , and being a true partner in the icu .” To the PDs credit , attempts were made to integrate these things . Frequent rounds with the IR attendings on vascular access , radiology on renal imaging , doing our own renal biopsies , biopsy conferences , and having the vascular or icu team supervise femoral HD carbs ... but with the 25-30 consults follow ups per day (we were not allowed to skip notes even in mundane items for billing / revenue reasons ) , there was hardly any time to integrate those items into the workflow.

Also the PD would cite the great private practice job Rate. Again with no data about the horrors that follow .

bottom line is the renal fellowships are trying their best to make things better . But the (good) jobs out there are just not there because HD is so territorial and privileges given out on a who do you know basis .

therefore , unless you love HD so much , it’s more practical for a neph graduate to give up the HD and piggyback non HD renal to IM. Now I understand not everyone has the capital to launch a practice . At the very least you can negotiate a hospitalist or internist job and just address all non HD renal issues .. bill more problems and time spent ... and increasing those RVUs . 99214 and 99215 never seemed so easy when you are hammering out 12 problems per patient . Also you can go do the Emory course - get certified for renal sono (this isn’t mandatory to bill but would be a good lawsuit safeguard ) - and there you go . You got your own equivalent to echo for cardiologists . Do 24aBPM and you shave your holter equivalent . Set up tele monitoring with BP using the remote care cpt codes and that’s something else . Get some dietary stuff and talk and extra 15 minutes and bill the Medicare G code for ckd education . Now your billing patterns begin to parallel a gen cardiologist . Revenue / RVU can be nickel and dimed .

"the horrors that follow..." What a surprise that the people who are portraying an overly optimistic picture of nephrology private practice also stand to gain the most from the fellow signing on to take their night calls. Yet they take no responsibility when the fellow graduates and figures out that private practice is so bad that they are better off as a hospitalist. The exploitation begins in fellowship. And you can expect more of it when your senior partners are living off of your hard work and paying you a pittance. Maybe they give you partnership, maybe they don't. If any applicant is reading this, always remember that there is no free lunch in this world. Reality is always more brutal than what they are selling you. Doing a noncompetitive specialty is not the answer to your problems. Easy in, Easy out.
 
"the horrors that follow..." What a surprise that the people who are portraying an overly optimistic picture of nephrology private practice also stand to gain the most from the fellow signing on to take their night calls. Yet they take no responsibility when the fellow graduates and figures out that private practice is so bad that they are better off as a hospitalist. The exploitation begins in fellowship. And you can expect more of it when your senior partners are living off of your hard work and paying you a pittance. Maybe they give you partnership, maybe they don't. If any applicant is reading this, always remember that there is no free lunch in this world. Reality is always more brutal than what they are selling you. Doing a noncompetitive specialty is not the answer to your problems. Easy in, Easy out.
Amen to that

the only two viable paths for a successful nephrology career for a young graduate are

1) sign in to be a faculty academician if you love the field - low pay to start but keep pumping out the research and it’ll go up to hospitalist average . Job security a plus especially if you have a niche . The GN doc , the PD doc , the transplant doc , etc ...

2) piggyback neph to something else

but everyone needs to go into this with a plan and cannot expect to pick up a job advertisement from a recruiter and hope it all goes well
 
Pretty amazing that this thread is the most viewed, most commented on the subject of nephrology.
 
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Pretty amazing that this thread is the most viewed, most commented on the subject of nephrology.
Well it’s the most useful from a public service announcement perspective . But let’s give credit where credit is due . The larger academic programs are doing their best . I checked out some websites . Novel curricula and some hospitals have their three year renal CCM track, pocus training , eliminating weekday night call for fellows , having good research opportunities , and training to be an academician .

but yeah that doesn’t do anything for the private practice market. But that’s out of the ASN and the fellowship programs control . It’s really the smaller fellowships that cannot offer these more diverse training opportunities that should really close down. Those are the ones that are preying on free PA work for two years and not being able to offer anything of significant value other than board eligibility .
 
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We all know how this will end. 60-70% of fellowships spot will fill in the match, with the remaining unfilled spots that will fill in the scramble. No shortage of graduates, with trememdous oversupply in the market. Neph groups don't need to raise starting salaries or treat you fairly. Older partners living off of the work of younger partners, without sharing revenue equitably. The younger partner gets fed up, leave a go back to hospitalist. And the cycle of abuse continues. No hope. Why would smaller fellowship programs reduce slots when they can tap into the pool of desperate IMGs trying to land a US residency. It's a dying specialty that won't die. Exploitation is so prevalent that I'm tired of even writing about it.
 
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At a local community hospital I have privileges at , it’s the faculty group of 5 nephrologist only . No fellowship . There is an IM residency though . This hospitals renal director does not grant HD privileges to non faculty nephrologists (for obvious reasons) . Most after hours HD consults are turfed to the morning . Bipap , veltassa , fluids , lasix , icu consult - do whatever it takes to delay the HD until the morning . Attendings don’t want to come in .

These IM residents think this is how all esrd is treated - wonder why interest is low in non academic training centers ? This kind of behavior is basically “you reap what you sow “

Contrast to fellowship where every ER call for missed HD must be addressed same day / night by the fellow . Good way to maximize revenue at these smaller hospitals .
So it’s literally getting a 2 year PA in that sense
 
The specialty preys on the hopes of desperate applicants. Many of these are IMGs who are unable to get into a more competitive specialty, and who are completely burned out from a hospitalist job. Nephrology fellowship offers an easy way out. Fellowship programs fan those flames with stories of how lucrative private practice is, which is completely untrue for the average graduate. They end up wasting many years to find out that they were just better off financially being a hospitalist. Many will end up going right back. The specialty exploits the most desperate.
 
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The specialty preys on the hopes of desperate applicants. Many of these are IMGs who are unable to get into a more competitive specialty, and who are completely burned out from a hospitalist job. Nephrology fellowship offers an easy way out. Fellowship programs fan those flames with stories of how lucrative private practice is, which is completely untrue for the average graduate. They end up wasting many years to find out that they were just better off financially being a hospitalist. Many will end up going right back. The specialty exploits the most desperate.
The program I went to did not match fully one year. during the scramble, the PD was doing the PD's best (i will not use gender pronouns in order to maximize anonymity) to convince the scramble candidates (who did not match into PCCM or Cardiology) that nephrology has an intimate working relationship with those departments. You will always be in CCU/CTICU and MICU and learn so much from those cases because those patients always get ultrafiltration or HD. You will learn so much from those cases just being around. Etc... sold the idea of a "cardionephrologist" and how the "nephrologist is a key team member on the ICU team."

All of these things are true... from a certain point of view...

And these lines all worked to get the candidates to match. Those candidates both finished nephrology and went to become hospitalists now.
 
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The program I went to did not match fully one year. during the scramble, the PD was doing the PD's best (i will not use gender pronouns in order to maximize anonymity) to convince the scramble candidates (who did not match into PCCM or Cardiology) that nephrology has an intimate working relationship with those departments. You will always be in CCU/CTICU and MICU and learn so much from those cases because those patients always get ultrafiltration or HD. You will learn so much from those cases just being around. Etc... sold the idea of a "cardionephrologist" and how the "nephrologist is a key team member on the ICU team."

All of these things are true... from a certain point of view...

And these lines all worked to get the candidates to match. Those candidates both finished nephrology and went to become hospitalists now.
People are living on hopium. Amazing how many fall for the trap every year.
 
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one of the attendings I had during renal fellowship was a bright guy . USAMG. Went to top IM residency in nyc area . Matched into top renal fellowship in NYC - subspecialized HTN fellowship out of state in another top notch program . Has numerous publications loves academics . Got a junior faculty attending job. No HD patients to start - cover the renal service - base pay $170K in major NYC but night call covered by fellows - with phone call to attendings .
His fiancée matched out of state to residency - unexpected - so he had to move and had to pick up a private practice job. Now he’s dogging it just as listed above . His superb education and academic accomplishments are being wasted as we speak .

also he did not publish anything in his first year working in that academic job . He was criticized by the director of nephrology for not publishing or bringing in the RVUs for the group .

maybe he will bounce back and find another Cush academic job for $170K again in NYC one day
 
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one of the attendings I had during renal fellowship was a bright guy . USAMG. Went to top IM residency in nyc area . Matched into top renal fellowship in NYC - subspecialized HTN fellowship out of state in another top notch program . Has numerous publications loves academics . Got a junior faculty attending job. No HD patients to start - cover the renal service - base pay $170K in major NYC but night call covered by fellows - with phone call to attendings .
His fiancée matched out of state to residency - unexpected - so he had to move and had to pick up a private practice job. Now he’s dogging it just as listed above . His superb education and academic accomplishments are being wasted as we speak .

also he did not publish anything in his first year working in that academic job . He was criticized by the director of nephrology for not publishing or bringing in the RVUs for the group .

maybe he will bounce back and find another Cush academic job for $170K again in NYC one day
What a waste of talent. Someone like him could have matched into GI or something cerebral like heme/onc and still made a lot of money and had great lifestyle. Instead he is being financially punished for choosing his passion. Sometimes common sense doesn’t kick in until you are married and has bills to pay.
 
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The program I went to did not match fully one year. during the scramble, the PD was doing the PD's best (i will not use gender pronouns in order to maximize anonymity) to convince the scramble candidates (who did not match into PCCM or Cardiology) that nephrology has an intimate working relationship with those departments. You will always be in CCU/CTICU and MICU and learn so much from those cases because those patients always get ultrafiltration or HD. You will learn so much from those cases just being around. Etc... sold the idea of a "cardionephrologist" and how the "nephrologist is a key team member on the ICU team."

All of these things are true... from a certain point of view...

And these lines all worked to get the candidates to match. Those candidates both finished nephrology and went to become hospitalists now.

“Cardionephrologist”

Hahahaha. Good one good one.
 
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What a waste of talent. Someone like him could have matched into GI or something cerebral like heme/onc and still made a lot of money and had great lifestyle. Instead he is being financially punished for choosing his passion. Sometimes common sense doesn’t kick in until you are married and has
“Cardionephrologist”

Hahahaha. Good one good one.

Seems like one program is moving forward with this . Pubmed also has many articles detailing how a “cardiorenal “ fellowship who renew interest in renal fellowship
 
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Seems like one program is moving forward with this . Pubmed also has many articles detailing how a “cardiorenal “ fellowship who renew interest in renal fellowship

They are just changing lipstick on pig. There are no guarantees that any of these fellows from "cardiorenal track" will be able to get a cardiology fellowship. The problem comes down to nephrology itself as being undesirable due to low pay relative to workload. So you tie nephroloogy to something more desirable(ie neph-cc) in order to get applicants to bite. Bottom line is fellowships are coming up with creative marketing campaigns to basically sell the same thing in order to get bodies for scut work. It's another one of those strategies to give applicants "false hope", with the fellow ultimately losing in the end. Selling nephrology today is akin to selling whole life insurance. The well informed ones stay clear of it.
 
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“The starting salary for a new graduate can range from $175,000 to $225,000”



This is from the fresenius website. In a way this is “straight from the horses mouth .”
Because the HD corporations own all of the chronic HD , you cannot hope to “start your solo practice “ and practice HD unless you have a connection in the corporate field or your family / friend is the senior partner who will promote you quickly.

therefore the best one can hope for after graduating nephrology (in terms of revenue generation, lifestyle, and prevention of burnout) and not pursuing academics is to be a PMD/privileges for IM admissions and do all of the renal minus HD .

Although I agree with everything Renal Prometheus has outlined over the years, I am just trying to provide the glass half full approach to the situation for those renal fellows or renal graduates who find themselves stuck in this quagmire.

Also Academic Renal Medicine is a wonderful career. Money isn't everything in life. But the academic doctors need to realize that academic positions are LIMITED and not every graduating renal fellow can even have the opportunity to become an academic doctor (much less deal with the publish or perish environment in an academic job)

If you were successful in launching your own private practice, perhaps with the savings you made from a few years of hospitalist work or from working as an indentured servitude position for the greedy old dinosaur private practice doctors (honestly they have no incentive to give you money unless you are family/friend/or both), then here is what to expect:

- You will be unable to work as a traditional nephrologist. You will not be able to obtain HD privileges for yourself at the local HD center or obtain hospital dialysis privileges. This is purely due to limited revenue and the desire for the hospitals/HD corporations to consolidate all revenue to a select few.
- You will likely not be given privileges to a local infusion center. Do not expect to practice glomerulonephritis by yourself unless you eventually set up your own office infusion center. This is not likely unless you build your own group of "partners."
- You will likely not receive many referrals unless you go out and about to advertise yourself.
- You are unlikely to receive nephrolithiasis referrals unless you advertise yourself to a urologist.
- You are unlikely to receive hypertension referrals unless you advertise yourself to cardiologists.

But you should expect (and build your practice) should be primary care / internist who can also see his/her own patients for nephrology related issues. You will occasionally get the nephrology referral from another physician. In this model, the nephrology is purely value added. Insurances list you as both but label you as PMD. The Internist business you get is what it is. The nephrology aspect becomes some kind of additional revenue stream.

If you can serve a "underserved" Managed Medicare/Medicaid population, these patients tend to have low deductibles and low or no copay/coinsurance. Translation - you can see them as much or as little as the patient needs or wants and collect each visit. Just be sure the visit is appropriate in case someone comes to audit you.

The pros are you can totally not even bother to go to the hospital (unless you want to admit a patient under yourself as internist) because having non-HD renal consulting privileges is like skydiving without your backup parachute. Also, this allows you to not have to deal with the headaches of chronic HD as outlined above.

- You can manage Ckd and vascular access up until the last minute in ckd5 , then admit under yourself as internist and call the hospital nephrologist to initiate HD and have the social worker plug that person in . You can use your renal training as additional volume to your primary care practice and not have to deal with the esrd headaches (missed HD , vascular access issues , etc ...)
- You can obtain formal training in renal ultrasonography and perform point of care renal ultrasonography. Insurances do not require formal certification / documentation to perform and bill for point of care studies. But you better know what you're doing and documenting in the event of a lawsuit. But this can be counteracted if you simply send for a CT / MRI if you see any concerning morphological findings.
Point of care U/S are very cheap. The Butterfly IQ is very economical for this purpose.
- You can perform 24 hour ABPM testing. This is essentially analogous to what a cardiologist does with Holter. Only thing is, you don't need any special certification from ASH or any governing body to perform this.
- You could set up urine lab... if the labwork shows hematuria and proteinuria - go for it and find the acanthocytes or casts. Amazon has some very economic phase contrast microscopes that have camera attachments that can connect to a computer for image capture.

In addition to the office codes 99202-5 and 99211-99215, the other major CPT codes that an office Nephrologist can performed (and collect fully on if you own your own practice)

G0421 - CKD education for an individual = up to an hour - Medicare fee schedule $136.49 - really give that talk about CKD, diet, meds, access, what to expect, etc... this can be billed on top of the office code if other E/M services were done (especially if you are the PMD and did other E/M for other issue)

76705 - POCUS Abdomen - do a bladder / kidney - use this code. caution as above. Medicare fee schedule 116.64. Commercial insurance (assuming deductible/out of pocket met) pays up to $230.

96401 - this code was meant for chemotherapy administration SQ/IM. But certain injectable agents like the ESA agents can also use this code for billing purposes. Whether the insurance pays you or not for this code is insurance specific. Medicare $103.87.
96372 - otherwise this is the code for injecting medications. $21.15

93784 24 hour ABPM with software / interpretation / report - $68.75

(I am not bothering to list the CPT codes for urinalysis and manual microscopy because that is on the order of a few dollars and you need CLIA certification - which is not that hard to do - but it's a lotta paperwork for a few measly bucks only)

Since you are the PMD, you can also do many of the PMD codes to really get things to add up.

Let's just take a hypothetical situation of you are the PMD/nephrologist for a 65+ year old patient with current smoker CKD4, CHF, T2DM, HTN, CAD, HLD, etc... the usual. who has Managed Medicare (this means Medicare + another insurance like UHC or one of the other companies)

Annual Physical to go over all medical issues and update screening 99397 - $180.00
12 Lead ECG as indicated given all of these comorbidities 93000 - $30
Annual depression screening G0444 - $22.95
Tobacco cessation counseling 3-10 minutes 99406 - $18.65
Palliative care discussion - doesnt have to be you signed a MOLST form - as long as this is an earnest conversation - 99497 - $105.65
Basic spirometry with flow volume loop (dont need to be a pulm to do this) 94010 - $60.00

Now tack on the value added nephrology items
76705 - $116.64
G0421 - $136.49
96401 - $103.87 (gave Procrit or something)
93784 - $68.75

What does this sum up to?
$843.00
Now these are charges and depending on how well you (or your IPA) negotitated with the specific insurance carrier, you might see up to 70% of the charges collected.
So in the ballpark of $500-$600 for this visit.

A simple 99213 usually pays about $80-100 when factoring in coinsurance/copay.


Not every patient is going to merit billing all of those codes or doing all of those things. But this example just serves to highlight how one can make lemons from lemonade for those who are stuck in renal fellowship (and do not want to be an academician) or graduated and are wondering how to make something out of your renal certification from a business standpoint.
 
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well said. I just don't want people to get hurt by going into this specialty. It seems like many go into it thinking they will make more than a hospitalist, only to land back as a hospitalist years later. Too many years wasted chasing an illusion painted by academic nephrologists, with severe conflicts of interests in what's best for them vs what's best for the applicant.
 
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Seems like one program is moving forward with this . Pubmed also has many articles detailing how a “cardiorenal “ fellowship who renew interest in renal fellowship

there's already a backdoor to cardiology fellowship; it's called heart failure
 
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The truth becomes harder to deny as more people step forward and share their story. Applicants are in the dark, but you can be the light that guide them towards prosperity.
 
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Also people should not do nephrology fellowship as a bridge to another fellowship (besides CCM)
While it is possible (I am neph followed by pccm - both sides recruited me in residency) - I had extreme connections with the in house pccm department and worked my tail off with nonstop publications for the pccm to make this happen . Usually a program that doesn’t know you personally may not grant someone those extra Pgy years due to the way acgme funding works .
 
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Neph/Ccm is now a popular track, with over a dozen programs offering neph/ccm fellowships, given Ccm alone programs are only 35-40 throughout the country and don't participate in match its incredibly competitive with candidates from 6 subspecialties competing for Ccm spots , candidates have started using Neph/Ccm track but unfortunately neph training doesn't equip a neph fellow to survive in icu environment, I followed the same track and during all my interviews , faculty from good academic programs persistently complained how neph fellows doing Ccm were out of their depth and had little or no icu skills , and given its a 1 yr track , the most imp ICU skills are diff to master
 
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Neph/Ccm is now a popular track, with over a dozen programs offering neph/ccm fellowships, given Ccm alone programs are only 35-40 throughout the country and don't participate in match its incredibly competitive with candidates from 6 subspecialties competing for Ccm spots , candidates have started using Neph/Ccm track but unfortunately neph training doesn't equip a neph fellow to survive in icu environment, I followed the same track and during all my interviews , faculty from good academic programs persistently complained how neph fellows doing Ccm were out of their depth and had little or no icu skills , and given its a 1 yr track , the most imp ICU skills are diff to master
True statement.

Being ICU primary team is a whole different ball game. There is literally no time to be cerebral and think about the nuances of electrolytes and ins-and-outs. Not with all of the ICU consults from the ED, cardiac arrests from the floors, and your own ARDS patients crashing in front of you (or the dreaded I cannot get any lines into this Class 3 obesity patient so I need to do a cut down for a central line or thread an axillary arterial line )

A traditional nephrology fellowship is still taught in the manner of the "good old days." The senior faculty are all very accomplished academicians. But they like to operate at a slower and more methodical pace. You can't get any slower than drawing on a blackboard/whiteboard the mechanism for the countercurrent exchange mechanism.... CCM has no time for that kind of nuance. Also no procedures are being done during the renal ICU consults. Dialysis is merely a matter of assessing labs/fluid status, writing a generic order (which will likely change during HD due to hemodynamic instability), and saying good bye you see tomorrow.

That being said, some of these combined Neph/CCM tracks understand this and incorporate 1-2 months of ICU electives (being ICU fellow) in the first 1 or 2 years. That is probably a good idea when a recent graduated resident still remembers how to do micu consults and manage patients in shock and respiratory failure . Especially in light of the fact that the older nephrology faculty want you to “unlearn what you learned in IM residency.” There is an arrogance to the older generation of nephrologists. Look no further than the ASN leadership. It’s not unlike the baby boomers and their “greatest generation “ gimmick .
 
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True statement.

Being ICU primary team is a whole different ball game. There is literally no time to be cerebral and think about the nuances of electrolytes and ins-and-outs. Not with all of the ICU consults from the ED, cardiac arrests from the floors, and your own ARDS patients crashing in front of you (or the dreaded I cannot get any lines into this Class 3 obesity patient so I need to do a cut down for a central line or thread an axillary arterial line )

A traditional nephrology fellowship is still taught in the manner of the "good old days." The senior faculty are all very accomplished academicians. But they like to operate at a slower and more methodical pace. You can't get any slower than drawing on a blackboard/whiteboard the mechanism for the countercurrent exchange mechanism.... CCM has no time for that kind of nuance. Also no procedures are being done during the renal ICU consults. Dialysis is merely a matter of assessing labs/fluid status, writing a generic order (which will likely change during HD due to hemodynamic instability), and saying good bye you see tomorrow.

That being said, some of these combined Neph/CCM tracks understand this and incorporate 1-2 months of ICU electives (being ICU fellow) in the first 1 or 2 years. That is probably a good idea when a recent graduated resident still remembers how to do micu consults and manage patients in shock and respiratory failure . Especially in light of the fact that the older nephrology faculty want you to “unlearn what you learned in IM residency.” There is an arrogance to the older generation of nephrologists. Look no further than the ASN leadership. It’s not unlike the baby boomers and their “greatest generation “ gimmick .
Just FYI… the greatest generation and baby boomers are 2 different generations.


 
Just FYI… the greatest generation and baby boomers are 2 different generations.


Point is well taken . I stand corrected and educated .
Doesn’t change my opinion of the dinosaur doctors still practicing. They deserve to be remembered for their accomplishments . That’s it . When I get old I’ll know when to lace it up (or at least get out of the way of the new generation)
 
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