Nephrology is Dead - stay away

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To boil down the whole nephrology experience. It's basically a high risk low return investment of your financial future. That's why it's a non-competitive specialty. It's really that simple and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. It has a draw on people with limited career options, but also potentially damaging their career the hardest with high opportunity cost(2 yrs fellowships + 2-3 yrs of sweat equity getting 200k/yr) with no guarantees of financial success. It's not for the faint hearted and applicants who go into it need to understand what they are signing up for and be relatively young in their careers to absorb the financial hit if it does not work out. So yes, passion in a field does come at a financial cost and you need to weigh the risks and rewards.

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ACP Journals

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For-profit ownership arrangements are not limited to the hospital setting. A study of dialysis centers found that patients with end-stage renal disease treated at for-profit centers were less likely than those treated at nonprofit facilities to receive a kidney transplant (the preferred treatment of kidney disease) or be placed on a waiting list for one (65).
According to one definition, “Private equity firms use capital from institutional investors to invest in private companies with potential to return a profit. That potential is realized if private equity firms manage to add value to the company and subsequently sell their stake at a price higher than the purchase, typically within 3 to 7 years. Private equity deals range from tens to hundreds of millions of dollars and are expected to deliver 20% to 30% returns” (66). Private equity firms, recent and growing investors in the U.S. health care system, are now involved in most facets of the industry, including acute care hospitals, dialysis centers, home health services, and physician practice management.
However, ethical conflicts could arise when physicians refer patients to facilities in which they have an ownership stake. Joint ventures between dialysis companies and nephrologists have raised conflict of interest and self-referral concerns (100).
Over the past few decades, the field of medicine has been affected by corporatization; physician groups, hospitals, and insurers have merged to enhance their negotiating leverage and achieve economies of scale. From 1980 to 2006, for-profit ownership increased from 10% to 20% for hospitals, 10% to 70% for health management organizations, less than 10% to 40% for home health, and 35% to 80% for dialysis centers (117).
Price transparency could help alleviate suspicion of untoward profit chasing and allow researchers to consider the effect of emerging business collaborations. Berns and colleagues (100) called for transparency in joint ventures between nephrologists and dialysis companies to ensure that patients are educated; transparency will also allow the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, state health departments, and end-stage renal disease networks to collect and study the effects of joint ventures on patient outcomes, care delivery disparities, and kidney transplant rates. Others have proposed reimbursement changes to disincentivize physician ownership, such as directing the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services to reduce facility payments for ambulatory surgery centers (101)

While this article does not focus on chronic HD by itself, it does highlight some of the moral hazards involved in chronic HD

I am fairly certain the academic nephrologists all denounce these practices. There is nothing the ASN can do about these profit motives. This is not a symptom of nephrology. It is an issue with the capitalism system. The natural endproduct of capitalism is corporatism. When the need to drive a profit margin every quarter is the modus operandi, this is the natural evolution of health care in the West.

The point that I bring this is up is that this kind of greed to get more is what motivates senior partners from preventing new partnership agreements to the younger generation unless the senior partner is giving it to family/friend or is ready to retire.
 
with over 100k views, even the most pro-nephrology person will know that there are serious flaws to the specialty, and unfortunately, many people have been hurt believing a false narrative that programs sell you. For the residents who want to do nephrology, there are sinister sides of the specialty that fellowship programs are not telling you. If we were all doing well and making bank, like fellowship programs try to sell you on your interviews, we won't have to come on this thread to blast this specialty.
 
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Money isn't everything. However, there are real life considerations to take into account.

For those young ones out there (especially those who have student debt) who say naïve things like "as long as I can pay my bills, I will be happy," please understand you will not be able to pay your bills, buy a nice house, and start a family doing one of those no partnership guarantees private practice renal jobs or one of those urban academic starting clinical instructor nephrology jobs. Just being pragmatic.

If you coasted by on your parents 529 savings account for college and med school (maybe some scholarship thrown in of your own merit) and/or have no debt, please pursue whichever specialty you want that makes you happy. You can't buy happiness. No need to pursue the highest paid procedural specialties if it doesn't make you happy.

Nephrology as a medical discipline is a fascinating topic. Usually all other subspecialties will pay some lip service regarding this and how they enjoy the subject matter for its interest. Which other discipline of IM can practice in all clinical settings, be the "doctor's doctor," deal with systemic diseases that affect the kidney but can affect every other organ system (vasculitis), have a life saving extracorporeal therapy (HD and apheresis), overlap with endocrinology significantly, have a robust transplant connection, and be revered (among residents anyway) for their mastery of electrolytes and acid base status, and (insert other cliches academic nephrologists use)? But as we keep pointing out, if money is no issue and you love nephrology by all means please apply and aim to be an academician who does research. Maybe not necessarily physician-scientist but clinician-educator who puts out clinical research and teaches fellows.

The only viable pathway for private practice is if you have connections (family or friend) or if you can piggyback your nephrology practice off of a primary care practice.

Aside from these pathways, do NOT go into Nephrology hoping to cash in on penny stock. You will be disappointed and lose prime earning years of your life. See this entire thread.
 
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I agree its not about money all the time , but its about respect , recognition and at the end of the day work to income ratio, none of these are present in Npehrology , working your tail off and then being abused in private practice or to stagnate in academic program is not cool .
Academic Nephrologist has to bring significant grants and revenue to support their income and every one is not so Lucky , I have witnessed big academic names who had a draw and had amazing research failing to secure grants for while later in their careers and were pushed to do night calls and more service to support their salary and they hated it !

The idea of Nephrologists being really Smart is kind of overblown , Chr HD though complex is managed with a series of check list like any other chronic illness with bad outcomes any ways and in most cases of AKI apart of monitoring cr , avoiding nephrotoxins there is nothing else to be done , Transplant is truly satisfying but unfortunately renal transplant MD's make even less.

When the general trend for other subspecialties and General IM is to have a reasonable work to income ratio then expectation is same for Nephrology but this doesn't exists, Nephrology will continue to recruit gullible people and they will continue to exit the field in less than 5 years and this will keep going , lack of Innovation is another huge factor.

Instead of chasing SDN work should be done on upgrading training programs, focus on innovation, and stop this lying campaign and extortion by fellowship programs and may be lobbying to get paid more , they have done none of the above so freedom of speech should be tolerated
 
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Nephrologists get a lot of respect ....






















From the med students and the intern
#TREKS
#acidbaseequations
 
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The financial damage to people going into nephrology is incredible. It's so sad watching applicants fall prey to the lies and exaggerations that fellowship programs sell to get someone to sign on. People in the know need to step forward and be counted. Can't let this blatantly unethical behavior keep happening to misinformed applicants!
 
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The specialty exploits desperate applicants. And then spits them out when they are used up. The most desperate, defenseless people are also the ones who get damaged the most by the “lure” of this sub-specialty, because it’s easy to get into. Has past experience ever taught anyone that “easy to get” items ever end up well for the user? It’s easy precisely because it’s bad. Cards or GI are hard to get precisely because it’s good. Year after year, despite all the SDN warnings, same story happen over and over again to neph grads getting burned in private practice. Do people not learn from past mistakes or do they really think they are the exception. It’s just freaking amazing that all you have to do is dangle a carrot in front of someone and promise that things will work out and there is always someone who will bite. Despite common sense.
 
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The specialty exploits desperate applicants. And then spits them out when they are used up. The most desperate, defenseless people are also the ones who get damaged the most by the “lure” of this sub-specialty, because it’s easy to get into. Has past experience ever taught anyone that “easy to get” items ever end up well for the user? It’s easy precisely because it’s bad. Cards or GI are hard to get precisely because it’s good. Year after year, despite all the SDN warnings, same story happen over and over again to neph grads getting burned in private practice. Do people not learn from past mistakes or do they really think they are the exception. It’s just freaking amazing that all you have to do is dangle a carrot in front of someone and promise that things will work out and there is always someone who will bite. Despite common sense.
Hands gotta get burned by the stove sometimes before the kid will learn .
 
Fellowship programs have incentive to lie because they have something to gain(2 yrs of scut work). Private practice groups also have incentive to lie(they get slave labor for 2-3 yrs with only the promise of making you partner). Everyone has incentive to misrepresent the truth to you because they stand to gain tremendously. But you have to trust your instincts. Least matched sub-specialty? What is the market telling you? Nephro grads working as hospitalists, again, what is the market telling you. Listen to the market, it is never wrong. It is a collective conscious of wisdom from all participants.
 
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I don’t know how these academics sleep at night knowing that their fellows will suffer horrific fates down the road. And you constantly have to lie to the fellows to keep their hopes alive, all to satisfy your need for manpower. In private, they would not recommend this specialty to their own children.
 
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I don’t know how these academics sleep at night knowing that their fellows will suffer horrific fates down the road. And you constantly have to lie to the fellows to keep their hopes alive, all to satisfy your need for manpower. In private, they would not recommend this specialty to their own children.
on a pile of money.

It helps when you are 80 years old and are a lifetime HD center medical director (a title bestowed when this nephrologist sold his her center back in the heyday )

As for the other non - directors of nephrology who still hang out to glory days , the very fact that they have fellows is what let’s them get sleep.
 
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I wonder how the academic nephrologists are viewed by other departments. It’s gotten to the point of beyond pitiful. Each year, the unfilled programs get a list of applicants who didn’t match cards or GI, and they are cold emailing them with offers of a Neph position even though these applicants never applied for neph. Theres no end to the amount of desperation they will undertake to get a warm body.
 
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I wonder how the academic nephrologists are viewed by other departments. It’s gotten to the point of beyond pitiful. Each year, the unfilled programs get a list of applicants who didn’t match cards or GI, and they are cold emailing them with offers of a Neph position even though these applicants never applied for neph. Theres no end to the amount of desperation they will undertake to get a warm body.
As the Uber reliable dialysis doctor by the surgical specialties (especially CT surgery ) , the hyponatremia fixers by cardiology , the bail me out doctor for AKi by the intensivist (meaning when oliguria is not getting better medically ) , acid base arithmetic gurus by interns / residents , and the “doctors doctor “ by the hospitalist who have a tough case .

why else do many doctors (IM) say things like “I am really interested in the discipline and field of nephrology “ but never go into it ?
 
Evil triumphs when the good does nothing. I’m tired of watching Neph grads end up as hospitalists because they were misled by their fellowship/mentors. I want to give you all the brutal transparency that others did not afford to me and many others on this thread. Truth is always painful. Lessons need to be learned. Don’t underestimate what market realities are telling you; non-competitive specialties are non-competitive for a reason. You will pay a harsh price for your disillusionment.
 
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well let's not go there and start putting out evil and good aspersions. Good is a point of view.

The true problem is not academia or the discipline of nephrology. It is corporate forces that have taken chronic HD over. This phenomenon is seen everywhere in medicine. It is just striking in Nephrology because outside of chronic HD, what else do nephrologists have to offer that other specialties cannot handle?

just a few isolated things. Glomerulonephritis and tubulointerstitial disease honestly.


Hence outside of being an academic nephrologist, the best bet is to use Nephrology to make yourself a better internist/PCP/hospitalist.
open a PCP office and then get double insurance coverage. Expand volume with nephrology .
Do not go into chronic HD unless you have some connection or ownership stake.
 
With this high level of attrition in private practice, why can’t people just tell the truth? Why do people still have to cover it up? The people who are encouraging applicants to apply. Are they helping or hurting the applicant? Is it really saving the specialty when private practice is so bad that a good percentage of them will quit to pursue hospitalist medicine. It’s been hush hush for so long until we blew the cover off this year.
 
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110K views!! We know someone is reading. Hopefully save a few more pour souls from the nightmare that we went through.
 
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I think the saddest part of the whole nephrology experience is that most people go into it hoping to end up financially better off than a hospitalist. The reality is that most people will be worse off, with the realization coming years into private practice and it will be a shock to those who were brainwashed by their fellowship program. So in the end, the most desperate applicants also have their careers damaged the most.
 
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I think the saddest part of the whole nephrology experience is that most people go into it hoping to end up financially better off than a hospitalist. The reality is that most people will be worse off, with the realization coming years into private practice and it will be a shock to those who were brainwashed by their fellowship program. So in the end, the most desperate applicants also have their careers damaged the most.
I wish I had come across this thread before wasting 2 years in Nephrology fellowship
 
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So I consulted on a young patient with recently diagnosed SLE who presents with nephrotic syndrome . The initial visit took about 45 minutes of talking history physical and point of care studies (urine microscopy , dipstick , renal focused sono, phlebotomy , 12 lead ecg) followed by the charting afterwards ... very cerebral indeed ! I get to have a chance to make a real difference in this young persons course of renal disease !

This is the first consult so far this year (albeit I do not run a large renal practice ) .

I billed 99203 (for the time spent ) , 93000 for the 12 lead , and nothing else (this patients insurance does not pay for pocus - I just do it to help volume status and get a kidney size and morphology to formulate differential) ... the urine microscopy is unpaid as I am not a CLIA lab ...

You know what else bills 99203? A primary care visit for htn hld DM prevention .

But hey at least it’s very cerebral .

No more cerebral than an ILD workup (I’m multispecialzied see prior posts ) .
 
Looking back, the most sinister part is academic nephrologist lying in your face and luring into a trap for their own benefit(scut work covered). Of course it all makes perfect sense now why specialty is non-competitive. But some young pups are desperate and willing to do anything just to get a specialty. Money isn’t there In private practice and watching my friends go into financial ruin just to try to justify their poor decisions in the beginning is pouring salt on the wound.
 
You guys may not have done private practice nephrology like myself, so don’t know how financially damaging it is. The senior partners who make the money, half of their income comes from non-clinical sources(medical directorship + JVs). They have every incentive to not share the pie with new guy equitably. Clinical nephrology doesn’t pay. You can bust your ass and take home 250k/yr after overhead expenses(A hospitalist salary without the 6 months off). Completely sad. Commons reasons for not sharing JVs with new partners are established units already bought in, it’s hard to separate them, you can JV the next unit that opens up(no new units open up). Same thing with medical directorship money, you can have the medical directorship of the next unit(no new units open up). So being made a partner doesn’t mean you will make the same as the senior guys. Seniority and exploiting new partner is what’s keeping their income and lifestyles. Sometimes new grads don’t figure this out until years into working in their group, and figure out surprise surprise, there is no pot of gold at the end. The residents who got into a big name Neph fellowship thinking they got it made are complete fools. After getting chewed up in fellowship, more exploitation is waiting for you in private practice. Whos gonna tell you what I just told you, the people exploiting you? Haha… just looking at Neph fellow these days is sad.
 
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The ones I know who are still practicing nephrology, are not doing very well financially. Mentally they are still trying to justify the opportunity cost, but common sense is telling them give up and move on. It’s just beyond sad. That’s why I harp on the applicants to make sure they know what they are getting into. It’s a financial trap, and you are simply better off not wasting those years to figure out you are better off being a hospitalist. The only reason people still go into is the allure of being a sub-specialist, and it’s easy to get into. Years down the road most will regret these decisions, and then come onto SDN to bash this specialty. ;)
 
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COVID-19 takes a toll on recruiting renal fellows​


With the most recent delta variant – and the potential for others to follow – the coronavirus has made hospitalization rates and high death tolls a way of life.

There is nothing in the foreseeable future that makes one believe things will get back to normal anytime soon, and that has had an impact on the nephrology workforce.

Physician shortfall​


As has been previously documented in numerous articles and reports, the nephrology workforce has had a shortfall of physicians going into the specialty for several decades. Besides the usual explanations – low pay compared with other medical specialties, dealing with a complex and chronic disease, too much time between multiple offices, dialysis units and hospitals, and long hours – the fact is fewer residents are going into this specialty.

Nephrology has one of the lowest match rates of any subspecialty and has the lowest pass rates for any subspecialty board after completion of training.1 The biggest impact, however, on workforce is fewer fellows coming out of training are going into private practice.

Utilizing the Fellowship and Residency Electronic Interactive Database, which is managed by the AMA, it is evident that private practice in nephrology does not hold the same appeal as it did 10 years ago. The percentage of fellows completing training who chose who choose private practice has gone down substantially from 70.3% in 2011 to 45.9% in 2020.2 Although these numbers are not absolute (only 87.3% of fellows reported their plans in 2020), the figures provide a good indicator of the decrease in private practice interest.

COVID-19 further exacerbated these issues. Data are hard to come by, as many of the usual resources that track trends in fellowship training have been delayed or canceled during the past 18 months. The following is what we do know for most of the second and third quarters of 2020:

  • interviews in person with fellows looking for a job came almost to a complete standstill;
  • physician candidates for positions and the hiring parties were prohibited from getting together due to travel restrictions, quarantine issues, lockdowns and safety concerns;
  • for the first couple of months after the pandemic hit, many private practices and fellowship programs were slammed with more work than they could handle;
  • many programs put a freeze on travel or insisted on quarantining after travel; and
  • interviews (if these took place at all) were done online for the first time.

Virtual meetings​

Zoom, Skype or FaceTime meetings quickly became the tool of choice to interview for jobs. These work well if candidates are familiar with the geographic area where they are interviewing but do little to introduce them to a new community where they may be looking to spending the next part of their lives.

For the fellows coming out of medical school in June 2020, most of them knew where they were going 4 months earlier (when lockdowns occurred). The 2021 class, however, was limited on interviews through their first 6 months of second-year training.

COVID-19 made it more difficult for those nephrology fellows who were contemplating going into private practice to be able to identify and interview for positions.

Instead, they stayed in place. From personal experience and conversations with several nephrology-focused recruiters, it is apparent that more fellows stayed on to do an additional year of training through transplant, critical care and interventional fellowships. In addition, some stayed in their current locations after completing training but chose to work as a hospitalist or internist (if competitive nephrology opportunities were not available locally).

Things have improved since December 2020, when vaccinations became available for physicians and health care workers. Physicians who were in practice were not constrained as much as fellows by timeframe and were able to interview and travel as lockdowns ceased and things opened up across the United States. Those who moved seemed to be fewer in number than in the period before COVID-19.

Future workforce​

More fellows should be coming out of training programs next summer than in the last 2 years, as students doing additional years of fellowship finally complete their training. For private practice as an option, there will be an increase in opportunities available due to retirements, along with an end to hiring freezes. Likewise, physicians who were contemplating moving – but held off due to some of the reasons previously mentioned – are now ready to go. Finally, starting compensation has seen significant improvement as the shortage of candidates persists.

As a result, there will be more movement among physicians in the coming year. While this will be a positive step in fulfilling needs in the workforce, the shortage of nephrologists will continue until the specialty does more to attract residents into nephrology and, in addition, make stronger efforts to keep those who have trained in the specialty to stay in the profession.


My take:
I find the last sentence of this article amusing. You mean, the nephrology community actually needs to make effort to convince neph graduates to stay in nephrology??? Didn't the fellowship programs say during interview that everyone was doing really well? I thought residents knew what they were getting into when they sign up for fellowship(clearly they don't). Imagine specialties like cards or GI actually need to take time out to convince their grads to practice in the same specialty that they were trained. It's like the more you dig, the more embarrassing things get.
 
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For some people, there is a certain "honor" of being a subspecialist. Therefore one might feel it is worth it to pursue Nephrology for this reason alone. But there is fallacy in that as Infectious Disease and Geriatrics/Palliative care are also subspecialists and there is honor in that also. Therefore I am not sure what the appeal of nephrology is for someone who does not want to do academic nephrology.

I mean the transplant/immunology, GN, secondary hypertension, stones, cystic kidney disease, etc.. are mostly seen concentrated in academic centers.

I really do not see the appeal of private practice nephrology if you are not the boss in charge.

No lifestyle as a junior partner (unless academic and have fellows)
No good pay and no promises for making partner (unless you open a non HD practice piggybacked to IM - see my prior posts)
No honor (as a non academic nephrologist - you get your kudos and respect as an academic nephrologist. Not sure if you get any kudos as a private practice doctor. You get thought of as the "dialysis doctor.")
 
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So let me get this straight. Nephrology is:

one of the least matched medical sub-specialties…
Has the lowest board pass rate of all sub-specialties…
And has the lowest retention rate for new grads of all the sub-specialties…

And you actually believe what the fellowship programs are selling to you about how great their grads are doing? Truth, in the end, will always come out on top. Please don’t let desperate programs smooth talk into slaving away for them. Do yourself a favor, stop damaging your own career just for the “hope” of escaping IM/hospitalist.
 
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Going back to the statistic that only 45% of Neph graduates go into private practice(compared to 70% ten yrs ago). It really highlights the problem that there are very few groups that are worth joining financially. If you are gonna start at 180k and peak at 300k as a partner, you are better off just taking a hospitalist job. At least you get 6 months off and don’t have to run between multiple place per day.
 
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Going back to the statistic that only 45% of Neph graduates go into private practice(compared to 70% ten yrs ago). It really highlights the problem that there are very few groups that are worth joining financially. If you are gonna start at 180k and peak at 300k as a partner, you are better off just taking a hospitalist job. At least you get 6 months off and don’t have to run between multiple place per day.
Now while some young ones out there are going to say things like “money isn’t everything , do what makes you happy !” . This only applies to a Cush academic job in which you get a lower starting salary , fellows to do scutwork , the nice rare cases , getting paid to go go conferences, benefits , and a nice academic title .

There is NOTHING to line about being a junior partner in private practice unless you are right / family with the senior partner who will make you advance one day. See this entire thread .


Let’s take another IM sub specialty that has procedural CPt codes and assume this individual doctor has no special family connections .

This doctor graduates and decides academic job is not for him her . Wants to open a private practice and be the boss but has no capital to launch . Start a private practice job as a junior partner who “pays tribute “ to the bosses . Meaning a set % of revenue generated goes to the bosses .
Cardiologist , pulmonary , GI , etc probably at most rounds at the hospital for the admitted patients at first. Sure beats rounding in multiple hospitals and HD centers

This doctor decides he she made enough savings and Wants to launch solo .
Launches - does his her own procedures in office .
Card echo carotid abi pvr stress holter etc
Pulm - pft bronch thora lung sono
Gi - scopes
Rheum injections and centesese
Just to name a few

Nephrology - ... no HD privileges given to solo providers due to turf wars and greed . To do HD must be in the loop . So what does this nephrology doctor do besides get stuck forever ? Continue to grind or go back go hospitalist or start up as PMD who does non HD renal .
 
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A case for nephrology

In fellowship, I aspired to publish and write as a clinical educator, which paved the way for a career in academia. I got my dream job at a major academic center — teaching during ward rotations, rounding at dialysis units, and seeing patients in the clinic.
The academicians and the ASN need to understand most IM residents likes academic nephrology and would gladly pursue an academic career given the chance if he/she has the ability to do so with good mentor ship.

But no one will stand to be an indentured servant in private practice and there is nothing the ASN can do to remedy that because these are capitalist market forces at play. The dialysis industrial complex is the factor that is or entering new and younger nephrologists from thriving in private practice .
 
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Let's go back to the statistic that only 45% of neph grads go into private practice. Of that number, how many quit after few years because a) they got exploited by their partners or b) they weren't making enough money even as a partner. Maybe half of the original 45%, which is about 22.5% of the total neph grads are in private practice long term. Of course their is a shortage of nephrologists, but not because lack of manpower. It's because income/lifestyle ratio is so horrible that they would rather do something else. So I'm not sure this type of shortage, would actually lead to better job prospects, because their really is no practical shortage of nephrologists(if everyone who is eligible was forced to practice nephrology there would be an oversupply issue). They got to fix the money problem first. It's a delusional shortage of nephrologists.
 
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The money issue is PP is never going to be fixed . The HD corporations have a strangle hold over the revenue stream and the older nephs have a strangle hold over handing out revenue . Avoid nephrology private practice like covid (the plague) unless you own the practice or have family connections . If you like nephrology the discipline do academics and set up shop in the ivory tower .

If you want to make a good amount of money while working hard in private practice , do cardiology Gai Heme one , pulm , rheum , A/I

If you value Qol above all else , do hospitalist , academic GIM , endo or ID

Nephrology (in a private practice setting ) has no benefits and all the hardships . Why ? Just why ?
 
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Some of my friends practice in large metropolis where competition is stiff and they are miserable. Some of them camp in the ER just to grab a few consults. Kissing the rear of the hospitalists for consults is a routine thing in nephrology. At some point people figure out there's no point in doing all this just to make less than a hospitalist and go back to their old jobs. Residents don't see this in training and some are still under the illusion that nephrologist make decent money(the old guys do, the new guys just slave away). They learn quick couple of years into private practice.
 
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Some of my friends practice in large metropolis where competition is stiff and they are miserable. Some of them camp in the ER just to grab a few consults. Kissing the rear of the hospitalists for consults is a routine thing in nephrology. At some point people figure out there's no point in doing all this just to make less than a hospitalist and go back to their old jobs. Residents don't see this in training and some are still under the illusion that nephrologist make decent money(the old guys do, the new guys just slave away). They learn quick couple of years into private practice.
In terms of billing codes , a nephrologist who does not have HD privileges (or who does not collect on the HD revenue - see newer younger attendings) does not generate more revenue than an internist . The office and hospital codes are the exact same . The older nephrologist who have full in house and CRRT privileges can make bank . But most hospitals do not hand out these privileges to private groups and want their in house nephrologist to generate the RVUs. Hence new nephrologists without his her own practice or HD privileges do not generate much revenue. One arguably might make less than an internist since internist does not need referrals . Consultants need referrals . What is generated is taken by the senior partners as a form of “tribute .” If you were on track to be a senior partner after a few years of indentured servitude (or second fellowship ) and given it , then that might be worth it . All often greed kicks in and the senior partner will dump you to the curb and find a new graduate (dumped for a new girlfriend / boyfriend . ) sad but true. Don’t be a pawn of nephrology private practice . Do it for the right reasons such as joining academia .

There is no money or pot of gold unless you are connected . The same can be said for any industry actually .
 
For many years now nephrology practice revenue have been declining while hospitalist salary has been rising, and it has come to the point where the average hospitalist is better off financially than they average nephrologist. If the hospitalist work the same number of hours as the nephrologist, no question the hospitalist makes more. This financial imbalance along with long working hrs in nephrology is what has spawned so much dissatisfaction and attrition rates in private practice. It also explains why exploitation is so high as senior partners need to live off the junior guys to even justify financially practicing nephrology.
 
The best career option for most nephrology fellowship graduates would be to pursue an academic career. You get all of the positives of the discipline without too much of the private practice headaches (see the entire thread)

The allure of making over one million dollars a year in private practice is what entices most individuals to enter private practice. But the point of this whole thread is to highlight how there are VERY FEW private practice jobs that can pay that well because revenue is tied to patient volume and HD census. The older private practice nephrologists are NOT going to give that up. "All those who attain power are afraid to lose it."

in contrast, the reason why GI and Cardiology make so much in private practice is because the procedures they do can be done in the office outpatient setting and all revenue goes STRAIGHT to the doctor (assuming pure private practice). This is NOT the case for HD.

Therefore the bottom line should be

"Outside of Academic Nephrology for those individuals who really like the discipline and want to be a clinician-educator and also do research, do NOT do nephrology hoping for you will make it big unless you have family connections."

As a corollary, if you want to make more money and are not competitive for GI/cards/hemeonc/pulm, then do hospitalist + per diem hospitalist/internist. see the IM thread. you might be able to get 400-500 with a setup like that. Do NOT choose nephrology unless you truly like the field and want to do academics. You will be SORELY disappointed and will lose the prime years of your life.
 
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There are plenty of nephrology groups out there that start you out at 180k/yr for 2-3 yrs, and peak at 300-350k/year as partner. Is this really worth pursuing when you factor in the opportunity cost of 2 yrs of fellowship, plus 2-3 yrs of low wages with the hope that your group is fair and will make you partner? Nothing is guaranteed and there many instances of exploitation and not granting partnership. And even being partner, doesn't mean equal distribution of non-clinical income, so at the end you may still be worse off than a hospitalist(on a per hr basis). Hospitalists are making around 250-300k(including bonus) for half the year! Most of the hospitalist friends I know pick up extra shifts and they are doing 20-22 shifts per month. They are making 400-450k/year doing this. So why nephrology? I know, hospitalist medicine gets repetitive and admissions and discharges gets emotionally draining. But if you pick a specialty like nephrology, it's financially draining too. I think the main reason that fellowship programs still get bodies is people are desperate and looking for an escape. Most will regret it down the road. It gets sad when you are looking at the type of applicants who are going into this specialty.
 
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Outpatient private practice nephrology gets repetitive too . Outside of GN (and are you really equipped to handle GN outside an academic center unless you have infusion center privileges ) , the usual HTN CKD is interesting at first until you realize it’s all due to bad diet and lifestyle and it’s the same ole story over and over again . At least as hospitalist you can see some varied pathology (even if specialists run the show )

As the consulting nephrologist for DKD , you recommend sglt2 or glp 1 agonists but falls onto deaf ears to the PMD who keeps the sulfonlyurea and insulin train rolling . Then once you recommend endocrine , the pmd stops sending you referrals . Shrugs .
 
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many of my neph colleagues are in this situation where they feel like they are stuck. They are already many years into private practice, and they don't want to give up and feel like a failure. At the same time, they are making less than a hospitalist and working more hrs, and they want to be compensated higher, but it's not possible in nephrology. So they are stuck in this psychological trap of trying to grapple with what's known as sunken cost fallacy. They are mentally trying to justify their poor initial decisions, even though to the outsider, it's an obvious financial blunder. And then the longer they stay in nephrology, the more career damage they accumulate in opportunity cost, and the harder it is to leave because you have given so much into this. Switching neph jobs is not an option for many because you are starting at the bottom again(200k/year for x number of years to trying to make partner again). I hope applicants can really take some lessons from what I have said and take note of the structural problems in nephrology. The best thing to do is not fall into this trap from the very beginning. Second best thing if you did finish fellowship, is just go back to hospitalist after fellowship like many other and not waste time with this any further. You don't want to keep digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole and figure out in your 50s that nephrology is dead(title of this thread).
 
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IMHO, the happiest nephrologists are either the faculty academic clinician-educator / basic scientist nephrologists. Why? Honor, prestige, dealing with the uncommon and hard to treat kidney diseases, having a lot of support staff to deal with the patient headaches, and making a true difference. You may not be a millionaire, but you will have a nice QoL (since the fellows do the scutwork lol)

The other group (much smaller) are the Mercedes 80s remnants who collect passive income at the expense of the newer grads who have no other options.

Hence go full Academic or go full Corporate in Nephrology. A "regular" private practice job is asking for doom and gloom.

Other specialties also may have this issue with "not making partner." But the difference is that other IM subspecialists have other options. PCCM can just do CCM more. Cardiology (and Interventional) can work for a senior partner for a few years then branch out him/herself solo. GI opens up solo shop in PP anyway to keep all the scope dollars. Nephrology is tethered to chronic HD for most of the revenue and chronic HD is controlled by the corporations. Either fall in line as a dutiful employee doctor or move on and good luck. No wonder why most go back into hospitalist.
 
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main issue in neph is starting income is too low and lends itself to exploitation from greedy partners. For competitive specialties like cards, GI, heme/onc, Pulm/cc, your starting salaries is around 350k, with a higher potential after making partnership. So even if you get screwed and don’t make partner, it’s not the end of the world. With neph, do you really have the fortitude to start with another group at 200k/yr? Most just back to hospitalist if their first neph job doesn’t work out.
 
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Yep again this is because revenue is tied to Hd. In the office , you bill the same as an internist . Nephrologists tend to have no specific in office procedural skills compared to GI or cards or pulm. Hence to ckd patient who bills 99213 pays the same as a healthy internal medicine patient who needs screening and employment forms filled out . But the former is infinitely more complex and hence you cannot see as many of those patients as you can in primary care .

The cpt codes and revenue come from chronic and acute Hd CrRt .

But hospitals tend to give the acute privileges to the in house group (so the hospital collects the revenue) or to very select private physicians who have likely been around for decades . (Again see a trend ? Only older nephrologists benefit )

Hence you see harder and fewer patients than the internist for the same pay date but less total sum . If you don’t have the hd revenue , you don’t get promoted .

This also happens to lead to the perverse incentives of having people go into HD when conservative management , transplant and PD might have been better options.
 
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Some people just have to go through it themselves to believe what we are saying. It's not until you get into private practice and you are busting your behind and getting payed peanuts that you truly appreciate why people do not want to go into this specialty. And why people who are trained it would rather go back to hospitalist.
 
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The only nephrologists in private practice (emphasis on PP only - academic nephrology is a whole different ballgame) who make a lot of money and enjoy what they do are

1) the senior partners with the HD medical directorship, JVs , and the large census of chronic HD patients
2) those with family connections in the HD industry
3) those who piggyback nephrology (without chronic HD - maybe acute HD if privileges are permitted ) to internal medicine whether as inpatient , outpatient , or both . This flexible job schedule usually requires you to be the boss of your own IM practice .

If you do not think you fit in either of these and you like nephrology , then consider academic nephrology . Less money but you can focus on research and education (and have the fellow do the scutwork).

If you do not fit into these categories and you do not want to do academic nephrology , then You will be set up for profound disappointment (see this entire thread )


I know some of the former nephrology graduates who go back into hospitalist feel more confident about tackling IM cases. In a sense , if you have the renal knowledge (and in general the sharper mind of a trained sub specialist), then you * might* be more attuned to subtleties in clinical care that might help you shave off length of stay for your hospital admissions. But it’s unclear if that is worth 2 years of wasted opportunity cost that you will not be getting back .
 
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The sad part is that people are going to hurt their own careers but they are too naive to know it now.
 
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The sad part is that people are going to hurt their own careers but they are too naive to know it now.
Well don’t forget that most international graduates probably do not have crippling student debt like many AMg have . Hence they can “bite the bullet “ so to say . However , two years of opportunity cost is still two years

It’s not unreasonable to start as hospitalist for a few years , network with Nephrologists or find friends , then do renal fellowship somewhere academic (get two years of ivory tower education ) , then join your friends . That may be more worthwhile than blindly casting your fate into the private practice market .
 
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