Michigan Pediatrician Refuses to Treat Lesbian Couple's Baby

[oldanddone]

It's a tactless move to report someone's behavior to the media so that they can humiliate and waste the person's time. Do you know what happens when things like this happen to people? These people get harassed with emails, phone calls, online messages from random people they don't know who do anything from insult them to threaten their lives. No matter what they did, no one deserves that

along those lines, when there's a breakdown in communication, rather than form a mob, i like to see the 'community's' task as supporting the parties to come together and work out the breakdown in communication to where the parties involved (and not mobs) come to a local, particular agreement/resolution that works for them. restorative, rather than punitive.

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[jdh71]

I don't think that it was meant or done in order to humiliate and waste time.
However, that was what happened.
therefore, the situation points to a failure in good communication/relationship focus.
waiting until the last minute was poor form, and did serve to cause humiliation and a waste of time.
choosing to have a colleague deliver the news, and avoid the folks at all costs, by not even coming in that day, was also poor form, and served to cause humiliation and perhaps even escalate the situation. also poor communication/relationship focus.
like breaking up via a friend.

edit: result: aaannnnggrrryy ex lover!!!!! oh the spite in an exlover smited! handle with caution!!!

Humiliation occurred. Time wasted? There wasn't any delays in care of appointments.

We all agree that it was overall handled badly. Though there isn't likely a way it could have been handled "well" being "honest".

The moral of the story from my perspective is simply never give a reason for not being able to see a new patient. You never know what might make them flip out.

 

[oldanddone]

the time wasted was in terms of researching and settling on a pediatrician before the imminent need for a newborn check.
the delay was in finding the settled-upon pediatrician. they did not want just whoever was on hand that day. in the end they did have to rush with a newborn to interview other practices when they had diligently started the process early in order to not have that happen.
so the moral there is try to be as timely as possible in telling a family they cannot be part of your practice (whether giving a reason or not)
the office practice of not keeping the phone numbers of new patients interviewed and then told to book an appointment at the relevant time is a bit odd, and led up to this snafu.

i hear your point that honesty and authenticity is often not valued in practicality, and yet is at the heart of what i have been saying would make for better relationships and communities. too true.

ah well.

 

[e30ftw]

hell hath no fury like lesbians scorned.

this stuff used to piss me off then I decided to stop giving a f*<x

 

[touchpause13]

It doesn't.

Like I said above, I personally disagree with the belief underlying this. And I think her way of going about it was particularly stupid. But I know enough misguided people with similar ways of thinking that I don't think it is reasonable to basically ruin the career of every single person with religious based homophobia. As jdh said that's getting into thought police territory.

I just don't see this as a breach of patient care. We take care of all kinds of people whose belief systems we don't believe in, including criminals, racists, etc. I personally have operated on people who both terrify and disgust me...and once I'm an oncologist I certainly don't plan on including someone's beliefs or behaviors into my decision to be their physician. But in the case of a primary pediatrician, that doesn't seem like a breach to me.

For one, that is a very different relationship and the relationship between the doctor and the parents does matter a ton. It's also totally elective and, unless as said above they are in an underserved area, there are plenty of alternatives. It's also a very long relationship - ideally nearly 20 years. If there is something that is going to be a major barrier between the parents and doctor forming a relationship, then I would think both sides would not want to embark on that relationship. For a similar situation but a different belief structure - think of how much we all applaud pediatricians who refuse to treat the children of anti-vaxxers.

I think anti vax is a different case for several reasons, clearly vaccination is a choice and there is also the argument that refusing to treat anti vax kids helps protect your other patients.

Like I've said I do understand that this doc isn't the right person to be that child's pediatrician because it is a long term relationship and if it bothered her that much I doubt she would be a good fit. I still think it was a shet thing to do and I don't think it's ethically okay to refuse someone for that reason.

 

[oldanddone]

. erased because an anonymous forum not easy to make jokes...can be interpreted many ways

 

[touchpause13]

I also think that the way the parents are reacting is dumb. Instead of trying to find lawyers (I'm sure they are) or going on a public smear campaign I would instead inform friends about this doc so they wouldn't make the mistake and spend time advocating for better physician training in LGBTQ issues.

 

[jdh71]

the time wasted was in terms of researching and settling on a pediatrician before the imminent need for a newborn check.
the delay was in finding the settled-upon pediatrician. they did not want just whoever was on hand that day. in the end they did have to rush with a newborn to interview other practices when they had diligently started the process early in order to not have that happen.
so the moral there is try to be as timely as possible in telling a family they cannot be part of your practice (whether giving a reason or not)
the office practice of not keeping the phone numbers of new patients interviewed and then told to book an appointment at the relevant time is a bit odd, and led up to this snafu.

i hear your point that honesty and authenticity is often not valued in practicality, and yet is at the heart of what i have been saying would make for better relationships and communities. too true.

ah well.

Your point about time wasting is good in the context of finding a pediatrician.

 

[oldanddone]

I also think that the way the parents are reacting is dumb. Instead of trying to find lawyers (I'm sure they are) or going on a public smear campaign I would instead inform friends about this doc so they wouldn't make the mistake and spend time advocating for better physician training in LGBTQ issues.

the proliferation in sensitivity training for so many variables.... sometimes i think that focusing on relating across difference (not with competency checklists, but with other skillsets developed in other academic areas outside of medicine) and what makes for heart-felt authentic communication and caring for an other...that this would go a long way towards the many variables. the variables approach actually makes it LGBTGTSQISS*. it's that proliferation even within the community that leads me to wanting something that teaches us how to maintain good relations as a core 'competency'.

edit: that would include possibly reaching out to the pediatrician, so that they can talk through what the impact was, etc. and possibly including a few other people. there are ways to have little local impacts rather than just consumer dollar boycotts.

but then, it is a very real thing that the pragmatics of our world do not support the honesty and authenticity of such a facillitated process. therefore possibly not doable.

 

[touchpause13]

I don't understand where the parents are coming from tho. They are new parents and they feel like their baby has been treated poorly, I get that emotions are probably going to take over, regardless of your sexual orientation

 

[jdh71]

I think anti vax is a different case for several reasons, clearly vaccination is a choice and there is also the argument that refusing to treat anti vax kids helps protect your other patients.

Oh hogwash. Even if not vaccinating is a parental choice it's clearly not the child's fault and those children need a physician as much as any other child. The very rare case if some other child being in "danger" because of an unvaccinated child in your office is a bogey man.

I might as well refuse to see cough patients because it could be TB. And I don't want to expose my other patients to this rather rare (in this county) entity.

 

[jdh71]

On second thought.

That's actually a FANTASTIC reason not to see cough patients.

I'll make them all go see ID first. Hopefully the cough will be gone by the time the work up is done!!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

On second thought.

That's actually a FANTASTIC reason not to see cough patients.

I'll make them all go see ID first. Hopefully the cough will be gone by the time the work up is done!!

You'll take my whiney chronic cough for 4 days patients and you'll like it!

 

[Shikima]

I also think that the way the parents are reacting is dumb. Instead of trying to find lawyers (I'm sure they are) or going on a public smear campaign I would instead inform friends about this doc so they wouldn't make the mistake and spend time advocating for better physician training in LGBTQ issues.

Certainly doesn't make the cause any easier to drum up sympathy.....

 

[touchpause13]

Certainly doesn't make the cause any easier to drum up sympathy.....

Oh I know

 

[jdh71]

You'll take my whiney chronic cough for 4 days patients and you'll like it!

True.

Private school doesn't pay for itself!!!

 

[Shikima]

Oh I know

Might be time for a different strategy than continuing the current course?

 

[Pacna]

I got so much hope from reading these comments. I fully expected everyone to parrot the 'Ban All The Things' line. I'm glad that people in this community hold non-aggression in higher esteem than punishment for bigotry (many don't!).

If we were legally bound to act morally, then it would count for nothing when we did. However stupid I find this doc's decision and point of view, I'm very glad she was able to act on her beliefs. To protect any minorities, one has to protect the ultimate minority - the individual.

*looks down from soapbox* *decides to take the elevator*

 

[touchpause13]

Might be time for a different strategy than continuing the current course?

Oh I already said what I think the smart strategy would be.

But these are new moms who are in "protect baby" mode, I'm not surprised they aren't considering how their actions will affect the movement as a whole.

 

[Shikima]

I got so much hope from reading these comments. I fully expected everyone to parrot the 'Ban All The Things' line. I'm glad that people in this community hold non-aggression in higher esteem than punishment for bigotry (many don't!).

If we were legally bound to act morally, then it would count for nothing when we did. However stupid I find this doc's decision and point of view, I'm very glad she was able to act on her beliefs. To protect any minorities, one has to protect the ultimate minority - the individual.

*looks down from soapbox* *decides to take the elevator*

View attachment 189569

Finally the sensibilities of sensible individuals are arriving....

 

[jw3600]

I also think that the way the parents are reacting is dumb. Instead of trying to find lawyers (I'm sure they are) or going on a public smear campaign I would instead inform friends about this doc so they wouldn't make the mistake and spend time advocating for better physician training in LGBTQ issues.

What would this do though? This is similar to ethics courses. In most cases people are aware that what they are doing is unethical. They just do not care or, more commonly, do not think they will get caught. LGBTQ training for someone who doesn't believe in homosexual marriage is probably not going to change their beliefs.

 

[Shikima]

Oh I already said what I think the smart strategy would be.

But these are new moms who are in "protect baby" mode, I'm not surprised they aren't considering how their actions will affect the movement as a whole.

That's the thing, they're not acting on behalf of the baby... they're acting on immature internal dialogue creating moral outrage through using social media and lawyers rather than maturely navigating through this difficult time with a measure of dignity.

 

[touchpause13]

What would this do though? This is similar to ethics courses. In most cases people are aware that what they are doing is unethical. They just do not care or, more commonly, do not think they will get caught. LGBTQ training for someone who doesn't believe in homosexual marriage is probably not going to change their beliefs.

The point wouldn't be change anyone's mind in gay marriage, that doesn't particularly matter (and really is completely overblown and not where I think the community should be putting all their efforts in, but that's a topic for another day). I'd rather have someone try and work on empathizing with patients that are different from themselves in the hope that would translate to more culturally competent care. Like right now I'm wondering what happens when this doc has a teen patient who comes out to her? I'd hope that she would be respectful, but I don't know.

 

[jw3600]

The point wouldn't be change anyone's mind in gay marriage, that doesn't particularly matter (and really is completely overblown and not where I think the community should be putting all their efforts in, but that's a topic for another day). I'd rather have someone try and work on empathizing with patients that are different from themselves in the hope that would translate to more culturally competent care. Like right now I'm wondering what happens when this doc has a teen patient who comes out to her? I'd hope that she would be respectful, but I don't know.

I'll buy that. So basically "don't be a judgey ****head training."

 

[touchpause13]

I'll buy that. So basically "don't be a judgey ****head training."

Basically, yeah.
You would think that was something that wouldn't have to be taught after kindergarten, but apparently it's an issue.

 

[seminoma]

Surprised no one has made a comment about DOs yet.

The point wouldn't be change anyone's mind in gay marriage, that doesn't particularly matter (and really is completely overblown and not where I think the community should be putting all their efforts in, but that's a topic for another day). I'd rather have someone try and work on empathizing with patients that are different from themselves in the hope that would translate to more culturally competent care. Like right now I'm wondering what happens when this doc has a teen patient who comes out to her? I'd hope that she would be respectful, but I don't know.

I disagree that training in LGBQT issues is something that should be advocated. I'm sure many/most/all LGBQT individuals have issues not experienced by the non-LGBQT population, but that doesn't mean the non-LGBQT population should go through training about the LGBQT experience. Should white doctors go through training in black-people issues? Should black doctors go through training in white-people issues? Everyone has their own problems and creating special training programs to help group A empathize with group B's unique problems does nothing more than perpetuate stereotypes and inter-group differences.

In one ear I hear LGBQTs (same is for other groups, but since this is the relevant one here I'll stick with it) saying stuff like "just because I'm a girl who likes girls doesn't mean I'm a lesbian" and in the other ear I hear LGBQTs saying "The LGBQT population deserves respect as a group".

It's hypocritical to argue that you don't fall into a "category", but also try to use the "categories" to get special treatment.

Edit: It's not that I don't empathize with your problems, it's that I don't empathize with the problems of everyone "like you". I empathize with the problems of the individual, not the category they may or may not fall into. The only way that works is if I get to know you as a person, not as the stereotype of the most likely category you fall into.

 

[charmiedermie]

I also think that the way the parents are reacting is dumb. Instead of trying to find lawyers (I'm sure they are) or going on a public smear campaign I would instead inform friends about this doc so they wouldn't make the mistake and spend time advocating for better physician training in LGBTQ issues.

The best way to get the public to pressure for a new law is thru the media. The family did not smear the woman by telling what happened to their daughter.

 

[GUH]

The best way to get the public to pressure for a new law is thru the media. The family did not smear the woman by telling what happened to their daughter.

What law are you talking about? What do you think the law should say?

 

[jdh71]

What law are you talking about? What do you think the law should say?

Burning in a cage.

ISIS might be onto something.

 

[charmiedermie]

What law are you talking about? What do you think the law should say?

What are u talking about? Did u watch the news video of them? They want the anti-discrimination laws in Michigan to include sexual orientation. Just telling their friends, as @touchpause13, mentioned, isn't enough.

Don't put other people's actions on this family.

 

[rajhanda]

Burning in a cage.

ISIS might be onto something.

Thoughtcriminals should be sent to a re-education camp, and then, a nice burning in a cage!

 

[jdh71]

Thoughtcriminals should be sent to a re-education camp, and then, a nice burning in a cage!

As long as the burning happens. In the cage. I'm ok with whatever people want to do first.

 

[touchpause13]

Surprised no one has made a comment about DOs yet.



I disagree that training in LGBQT issues is something that should be advocated. I'm sure many/most/all LGBQT individuals have issues not experienced by the non-LGBQT population, but that doesn't mean the non-LGBQT population should go through training about the LGBQT experience. Should white doctors go through training in black-people issues? Should black doctors go through training in white-people issues? Everyone has their own problems and creating special training programs to help group A empathize with group B's unique problems does nothing more than perpetuate stereotypes and inter-group differences.

In one ear I hear LGBQTs (same is for other groups, but since this is the relevant one here I'll stick with it) saying stuff like "just because I'm a girl who likes girls doesn't mean I'm a lesbian" and in the other ear I hear LGBQTs saying "The LGBQT population deserves respect as a group".

It's hypocritical to argue that you don't fall into a "category", but also try to use the "categories" to get special treatment.

Edit: It's not that I don't empathize with your problems, it's that I don't empathize with the problems of everyone "like you". I empathize with the problems of the individual, not the category they may or may not fall into. The only way that works is if I get to know you as a person, not as the stereotype of the most likely category you fall into.

Yes.
Does your school not have this type of training????

Also when I did ever say that I don't fall into a category? It would be nice if you actually try and refute things that I've said. In your example - just because you are a girl that likes girls doesn't necessarily make you a lesbian, you could be bi, or pansexual, or prefer the term queer or whatever. Remember the whole kinsey scale thing? Sexuality exists on a spectrum, acknowledging that doesn't mean that non-straight (or those who have a different gender expression) folks don't deserve respect. I don't understand how you think there is any hypocrisy going on here.

 

[seminoma]

Yes.
Does your school not have this type of training????

Also when I did ever say that I don't fall into a category? It would be nice if you actually try and refute things that I've said. In your example - just because you are a girl that likes girls doesn't necessarily make you a lesbian, you could be bi, or pansexual, or prefer the term queer or whatever. Remember the whole kinsey scale thing? Sexuality exists on a spectrum, acknowledging that doesn't mean that non-straight (or those who have a different gender expression) folks don't deserve respect. I don't understand how you think there is any hypocrisy going on here.

I didn't say you said it, I said people say it. So how do you feel about people starting up empathy training based on race, religion, gender, age, profession, etc? What I'm trying to get at is the fact that the LGBTQ is no different than any other group of people in terms of having unique issues. Does that make sense?

I don't know what it's like to be you and you don't know what it's like to be me. However, only one of us is suggesting the other be trained to understand.

 

[touchpause13]

I didn't say you said it, I said people say it. So how do you feel about people starting up empathy training based on race, religion, gender, age, profession, etc? What I'm trying to get at is the fact that the LGBTQ is no different than any other group of people in terms of having unique issues. Does that make sense?

I don't know what it's like to be you and you don't know what it's like to be me. However, only one of us is suggesting the other be trained to understand.

I think empathy training is fantastic... obviously that's why I'm suggesting it.
I never said that the LGBTQ community was different than any other group in terms of having unique issues.

No I don't know what it's like to be you because I know literally nothing about you.

 

[jdh71]

Yes.
Does your school not have this type of training????

Also when I did ever say that I don't fall into a category? It would be nice if you actually try and refute things that I've said. In your example - just because you are a girl that likes girls doesn't necessarily make you a lesbian, you could be bi, or pansexual, or prefer the term queer or whatever. Remember the whole kinsey scale thing? Sexuality exists on a spectrum, acknowledging that doesn't mean that non-straight (or those who have a different gender expression) folks don't deserve respect. I don't understand how you think there is any hypocrisy going on here.

Give me thirty minutes and I could easily cover the topic in lecture. Everyone out early for lunch.

No one needs "special training".

My overarching point: in your training and career you will every once in awhile run into someone who you think is a weirdo or deviant or or black or Asian or just really really fat. Treat them like you would if you did not think they are a weirdo or deviant or black or Asian or they were not really really fat.

Done.

Med school needs more lectures in nutrition not in sensitivity.

I wonder if there is a way I could get paid for this?

 

[rajhanda]

The best way to get the public to pressure for a new law is thru the media. The family did not smear the woman by telling what happened to their daughter.

Hah. But those women knew exactly what they were doing to the doctor. Very ingenious plan using a baby as their prop... "Think of the children" etc.

 

[seminoma]

I think empathy training is fantastic... obviously that's why I'm suggesting it.
I never said that the LGBTQ community was different than any other group in terms of having unique issues.

No I don't know what it's like to be you because I know literally nothing about you.

So should we have white-empathy training for all the non-white people? fit-empathy training for all the obese people? Wealthy-empathy training for all the poor people?

Wealthy people have unique problems compared to poor people and wealthy people are certainly a minority compared to poor people.. Seems like a good group to learn to empathize with.

 

[touchpause13]

Give me thirty minutes and I could easily cover the topic in lecture. Everyone out early for lunch.

No one needs "special training".

My overarching point: in your training and career you will every once in awhile run into someone who you think is a weirdo or deviant or or black or Asian or just really really fat. Treat them like you would if you did not think they are a weirdo or deviant or black or Asian or they were not really really fat.

Done.

Med school needs more lectures in nutrition not in sensitivity.

I wonder if there is a way I could get paid for this?

We are obviously going to disagree on this. I think the best way to go about treating patients from different backgrounds is to make some attempt to learn about their struggles and cultural nuances, and to use that information to look inward and self reflect your own personal biases in an attempt to treat every patient with the respect that they deserve. I don't really like the model of "pretend that what you don't like about them doesn't exist" I mean it's a good start, but I'd rather an approach of "recognize that their life experience may lead them to have a different view of the world than you do, and do you best to try and meet them where they are at"

And yes @seminoma that goes for all marginalized groups, poor, those with disabilities, racial and ethic minorities, the elderly, etc etc etc

 

[touchpause13]

So should we have white-empathy training for all the non-white people? fit-empathy training for all the obese people? Wealthy-empathy training for all the poor people?

Wealthy people have unique problems compared to poor people and wealthy people are certainly a minority compared to poor people.. Seems like a good group to learn to empathize with.

I mean, are any of those groups marginalized/have been treated poorly by the healthcare system over the years?

 

[touchpause13]

Hah. But those women knew exactly what they were doing to the doctor. Very ingenious plan using a baby as their prop... "Think of the children" etc.

occums rasor

 

[seminoma]

And yes @seminoma that goes for all marginalized groups, poor, those with disabilities, racial and ethic minorities, the elderly, etc etc etc

Fair enough, at least you're consistent.

 

[seminoma]

I mean, are any of those groups marginalized/have been treated poorly by the healthcare system over the years?

Why does it matter? Are only the marginalized/poorly treated groups deserving of empathy? Why does the white man's problems matter less than xyz minority problems?

 

[seminoma]

I agree that a physician should make the effort to empathize with the struggles of their patient, but that should be done on an individualized basis. And that individualized empathy is done by getting to know the patient, not by sitting in a classroom debunking stereotypes.

 

[jdh71]

We are obviously going to disagree on this. I think the best way to go about treating patients from different backgrounds is to make some attempt to learn about their struggles and cultural nuances, and to use that information to look inward and self reflect your own personal biases in an attempt to treat every patient with the respect that they deserve. I don't really like the model of "pretend that what you don't like about them doesn't exist" I mean it's a good start, but I'd rather an approach of "recognize that their life experience may lead them to have a different view of the world than you do, and do you best to try and meet them where they are at"

I find this to a bit ironic based on your outrage of where the physician in this case bases her choice.

That aside. I could add a line that everyone comes from a different place. And everyone is still out for lunch early.

It's just a huge waste of time to try and make everyone sensitive to all the potential possibilities.

A doctor will learn about the patient population he works with. You can't just beat this kind of stuff into people outside face to face context of the interaction.

 

[touchpause13]

Why does it matter? Are only the marginalized/poorly treated groups deserving of empathy? Why does the white man's problems matter less than xyz minority problems?

See, my plan is to help fix the health disparies of marginalized groups that have been mistreated by those in the healthcare system. There is no evidence of white people or rich people being treated poorly in this context, so there is no problem, so there would be no reason to provide training. If historically white people were given fatal diseases then not treated for experimentation purposes without consent, their cells taken and sold without seeing a dime, if educated white women had significantly worse rates of infant mortality than black women with only high school educations, then yeah it probably would be a good idea - but that's not the case.

 

[jdh71]

Why does it matter? Are only the marginalized/poorly treated groups deserving of empathy? Why does the white man's problems matter less than xyz minority problems?

And let the congregation say . . .

Amen

 

[charmiedermie]

Hah. But those women knew exactly what they were doing to the doctor. Very ingenious plan using a baby as their prop... "Think of the children" etc.

Yes, they targeted her from the beginning in their evil plan to force her to treat their daughter. Yeah their daughter is just a "prop".

 

[touchpause13]

I find this to a bit ironic based on your outrage of where the physician in this case bases her choice.

That aside. I could add a line that everyone comes from a different place. And everyone is still out for lunch early.

It's just a huge waste of time to try and make everyone sensitive to all the potential possibilities.

A doctor will learn about the patient population he works with. You can't just beat this kind of stuff into people outside face to face context of the interaction.

How many people know exactly what patient population they are going to be working with in medical school? I don't really see how it's a waste of time. For us it was a total of 6 hours over the course of 2 months. 1 hour per group - watch a movie, then small group discussion.

And no it's not mandatory - but a lot of people do it, the spots tend to fill up within an hour

 

[GUH]

See, my plan is to help fix the health disparies of marginalized groups that have been mistreated by those in the healthcare system. There is no evidence of white people or rich people being treated poorly in this context, so there is no problem, so there would be no reason to provide training. If historically white people were given fatal diseases then not treated for experimentation purposes without consent, their cells taken and sold without seeing a dime, if educated white women had significantly worse rates of infant mortality than black women with only high school educations, then yeah it probably would be a good idea - but that's not the case.

Do you have any evidence at all that increased physician sensitivity trainin would actually help fix these problems, or are we just making recommendations based on what makes us feel good?