Medical Genetics Question

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studiousmaximus8

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Hi all, I am leaning pretty heavily towards applying to IM residency programs. I am looking into fellowships (and dual programs) and wondering about Medical Genetics.

What is the utility of a Medical Geneticist who is trained in Internal Medicine? Some people who I have mentioned this fellowship to were wondering why I don't go for pediatrics if I am doing genetics. And that made me wonder, what does a medical geneticist who takes care of adult patients do?

Thank you

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What is the utility of a Medical Geneticist who is trained in Internal Medicine?

You work as an Internist, taking care of people as a physician (not a geneticist). And you'll be happy to be a residency trained Internist (or a pediatrician), because then you can actually be employable as a doctor. I wouldn't do this any other way. Make sure you get trained in a real medical specialty first (or in conjunction).

Your training in genetics doesn't really apply to your clinical work (maybe it opens doors for you to see interesting cases). It more applies to research and other academic endeavors. Quite honestly though, a PhD geneticist who's done a post-Doc is more qualified in that regard.
 
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You work as an Internist, taking care of people as a physician (not a geneticist). And you'll be happy to be a residency trained Internist (or a pediatrician), because then you can actually be employable as a doctor. I wouldn't do this any other way. Make sure you get trained in a real medical specialty first (or in conjunction).

Your training in genetics doesn't really apply to your clinical work (maybe it opens doors for you to see interesting cases). It more applies to research and other academic endeavors. Quite honestly though, a PhD geneticist who's done a post-Doc is more qualified in that regard.
What on Earth are you talking about? There are combined IM-Clinical Genetics residencies. Afterwards you can work as a clinical geneticist full time seeing both kids and adults or you can even narrow your practice to just adults.

There is a dearth of medical geneticists in the US so I have no idea where you got the idea that they aren't employable, there's a huge need for them. Also where did you get the idea that it's not a real specialty? You entire response is nonsense.

Don't listen to that poster OP. Look at their website to learn more about the specialty.
 
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There is a dearth of medical geneticists in the US so I have no idea where you got the idea that they aren't employable

[sarcasm/] Yes, when I open the back of NEJM or Annals, I see a ton of ads for medical geneticists. They're hiring them by the droves! [/sarcasm]

When we have hard questions about genetics/biochemistry, we seek the advice of PhD Scientists who clearly understand the topic better than us. When we need someone to diagnose and treat a condition, we seek a physician (who needs to be trained in a primary care specialty and/or a fellowship).

If you were really interested in doing both, do a MD/PhD program.

I have no problem with a IM-Genetics, or Peds-Genetics program, especially if the latter part is focused on research techniques and that's what you're interested in.

But make no mistake about it: you're a better clinician because of your training in IM, FM, or Peds, and their ensuing fellowships (if applicable).

I would absolutely discourage anyone from doing a 'stand-alone' genetics residency (if that really is a thing).
 
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[sarcasm/] Yes, when I open the back of NEJM or Annals, I see a ton of ads for medical geneticists. They're hiring them by the droves! [/sarcasm]

When we have hard questions about genetics/biochemistry, we seek the advice of PhD Scientists who clearly understand the topic better than us. When we need someone to diagnose and treat a condition, we seek a physician (who needs to be trained in a primary care specialty and/or a fellowship).

If you were really interested in doing both, do a MD/PhD program.

I have no problem with a IM-Genetics, or Peds-Genetics program, especially if the latter part is focused on research techniques and that's what you're interested in.

But make no mistake about it: you're a better clinician because of your training in IM, FM, or Peds, and their ensuing fellowships (if applicable).

I would absolutely discourage anyone from doing a 'stand-alone' genetics residency (if that really is a thing).
You do realize it's a tiny specialty right? Relative to the number of clinical geneticists that actually exist, there are more jobs available. How does someone have to explain to you that the number of ads you personally see in journals has no relevance to the demand of a specialty?

There's absolutely no need to do an MD-PhD to work as geneticist clinically, it is a CLINICAL specialty.

I'm convinced you have never heard of the specialty before and think it is literally the same as being a PhD geneticist. If you don't know about the specialty no need to contribute misinformation confidently, especially when you've already been corrected once, just have the humility to realize you don't know what you're talking about and don't contribute to the conversation.
 
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I'm convinced you have never heard of the specialty before and think it is literally the same as being a PhD geneticist. If you don't know about the specialty no need to contribute misinformation confidently, especially when you've already been corrected once, just have the humility to realize you don't know what you're talking about and don't contribute to the conversation.

Well, when you post on a public forum, you're subject to "armchair" experts like me spouting off advice.

Interestingly enough, sometimes that armchair, non-expert, but common-sense-employed advice might be useful. The peanut gallery isn't necessarily wrong.

But ok, your point is well taken. I will no longer contribute here, carry on.

I have to go, I have patient in V-tach and coding. "Quick! Someone call the medical geneticist!"
 
There are very few places that splits adult genetics and pediatric genetics clinic. Unfortunately, you will have to see kids and babies during training since most genetic diagnosis are made in pediatrics.

There are late onset conditions or cases not diagnosed during peds that I see on the adult side. For patients with inborn errors of metabolism, we follow them from birth to death usually. I have trained with IM trained ones that see more adult patients than kids. I trained as family medicine first so I split my time in peds clinic as well but have more time in adult clinic.

There won’t be shortages for job opportunities unless you truly don’t want to see kids. Most job openings are through pediatric institutions.
 
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[sarcasm/] Yes, when I open the back of NEJM or Annals, I see a ton of ads for medical geneticists. They're hiring them by the droves! [/sarcasm]

When we have hard questions about genetics/biochemistry, we seek the advice of PhD Scientists who clearly understand the topic better than us. When we need someone to diagnose and treat a condition, we seek a physician (who needs to be trained in a primary care specialty and/or a fellowship).

If you were really interested in doing both, do a MD/PhD program.

I have no problem with a IM-Genetics, or Peds-Genetics program, especially if the latter part is focused on research techniques and that's what you're interested in.

But make no mistake about it: you're a better clinician because of your training in IM, FM, or Peds, and their ensuing fellowships (if applicable).

I would absolutely discourage anyone from doing a 'stand-alone' genetics residency (if that really is a thing).
Laboratory geneticist and clinical geneticist are two completely different specialty......For clinical geneticist, clinical training in gen med/ped is of course necessary. Even Diagnostic Radiology residency requires 1-year prelim internal medicine training......
 
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My perspective is that as someone who trained in IM and then allergy/immunology at a very large institution with a large peds hospital as well as large adult hospitals.

OP, do you know what a medical geneticist does as far as day-to-day work? If not, I would make sure you shadow one closely. If you really want to practice full time in that setting, pediatric or med-peds makes the most sense. Although, coming from a field like A/I, I think good fellowship training results in both IM and Peds trained docs that are very competent and comfortable with all ages. I've seen some interesting practice settings. Where I did my IM residency, we had an adult trained genetics doc that saw quite a few of functional illness types and ended up working up ehlers danlos and stuff like that and then she'd refer them to a bunch of subspecialists who learned to dread those referrals. During my fellowship, I pretty much never saw a geneticist involved with adult care (at least in immuno) but I often saw them consulted in pediatrics. The consult was usually prompted by either family history, + new born screen, or suspicion that what we were seeing had a syndromic feel to it. I do think it's helpful for the families to have a geneticist involved. It was somewhat helpful as an immuno fellow because these patients often require multidisciplinary care. Although, I never asked genetics a question once and I never had them actually manage the disease. It was more just an interesting note to read. It seemed like they sort of functioned in an adjunct primary role, sort of like they were there to make sure all the necessary parties were involved.

I would question if the clinical role is being phased out more and more with the easy access to genetic testing. Companies like invitae make it super easy to get genectic testing done on patients and most of us in our primary field (immuno, neuro, rheum, onc, etc.) know enough that once we have the syndrome diagnosed, we can manage our part. The days of needing a true clinical geneticist to examine and syndromically identify genetic disorders seem numbered to me. Even in my private practice suburban clinic, I can easily have genetic testing back in a week or two with concise explanantions of any identified variants or mutations and I can always call Invitae and speak to a phd or md/phd type for clarification if needed. We even used to tease the clinical immunologist that he was just thoughtfully working his way to the inevitable invitae panel (...reminds me of the great cardiology diagnosticians prior to readily available echo and other cardiac imaging). I imagine the pay is absolutely terrible when compared to other fields since I don't see how genetics drives any significant revenue (academic pay for allergy is atrocious as well but we can easily bail to PP). It's probably a necessary cost a large institution in order to be accredited or reputable for all the various multidisciplinary stuff. I do imagine there's quite a bit of opportunity in industry for MD/PhD genetics experts but I just question the purely clinical roles. My guess is that you generally would be limited to very large institutions with a low floor and ceiling for pay.

I don't have any firsthand experience as a geneticist though so I'm happy to stand corrected. I would be curious for the two posters above who seemed to know more inside baseball...what does your day to day look like in terms of work as a medical geneticist? How do you contribute to the care of a patient differently than say a phd geneticist or genetic counselor? What kind of jobs are available? That's probably what the OP should be focusing on.
 
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[sarcasm/] Yes, when I open the back of NEJM or Annals, I see a ton of ads for medical geneticists. They're hiring them by the droves! [/sarcasm]

When we have hard questions about genetics/biochemistry, we seek the advice of PhD Scientists who clearly understand the topic better than us. When we need someone to diagnose and treat a condition, we seek a physician (who needs to be trained in a primary care specialty and/or a fellowship).

If you were really interested in doing both, do a MD/PhD program.

I have no problem with a IM-Genetics, or Peds-Genetics program, especially if the latter part is focused on research techniques and that's what you're interested in.

But make no mistake about it: you're a better clinician because of your training in IM, FM, or Peds, and their ensuing fellowships (if applicable).

I would absolutely discourage anyone from doing a 'stand-alone' genetics residency (if that really is a thing).
Completely agree. While I’m sure there is a deficit of clinical geneticists, and they are important, it’s also such a niche field that the employment opportunities are likely limited to really large medical centers or industry. The problem with that is that there may be limitations geographically, and in economic downturns, it would likely be really tough finding a position. Would definitely be safest to do combined training with a primary care specialty like IM/Peds/FM (and I would think that the clinical perspective gained from that training would only make you a stronger geneticist; it certainly wouldn’t hurt at all).
 
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Completely agree. While I’m sure there is a deficit of clinical geneticists, and they are important, it’s also such a niche field that the employment opportunities are likely limited to really large medical centers or industry. The problem with that is that there may be limitations geographically, and in economic downturns, it would likely be really tough finding a position. Would definitely be safest to do combined training with a primary care specialty like IM/Peds/FM (and I would think that the clinical perspective gained from that training would only make you a stronger geneticist; it certainly wouldn’t hurt at all).

Well said. Clinically, I don't trust any specialty that only requires a 1-year prelim. You're barely a doctor (I give a pass to Rads and Anes).

If you want to be taken seriously as a physician (and be employable), you need to complete a primary care or primary surgical residency.
 
My perspective is that as someone who trained in IM and then allergy/immunology at a very large institution with a large peds hospital as well as large adult hospitals.

OP, do you know what a medical geneticist does as far as day-to-day work? If not, I would make sure you shadow one closely. If you really want to practice full time in that setting, pediatric or med-peds makes the most sense. Although, coming from a field like A/I, I think good fellowship training results in both IM and Peds trained docs that are very competent and comfortable with all ages. I've seen some interesting practice settings. Where I did my IM residency, we had an adult trained genetics doc that saw quite a few of functional illness types and ended up working up ehlers danlos and stuff like that and then she'd refer them to a bunch of subspecialists who learned to dread those referrals. During my fellowship, I pretty much never saw a geneticist involved with adult care (at least in immuno) but I often saw them consulted in pediatrics. The consult was usually prompted by either family history, + new born screen, or suspicion that what we were seeing had a syndromic feel to it. I do think it's helpful for the families to have a geneticist involved. It was somewhat helpful as an immuno fellow because these patients often require multidisciplinary care. Although, I never asked genetics a question once and I never had them actually manage the disease. It was more just an interesting note to read. It seemed like they sort of functioned in an adjunct primary role, sort of like they were there to make sure all the necessary parties were involved.

I would question if the clinical role is being phased out more and more with the easy access to genetic testing. Companies like invitae make it super easy to get genectic testing done on patients and most of us in our primary field (immuno, neuro, rheum, onc, etc.) know enough that once we have the syndrome diagnosed, we can manage our part. The days of needing a true clinical geneticist to examine and syndromically identify genetic disorders seem numbered to me. Even in my private practice suburban clinic, I can easily have genetic testing back in a week or two with concise explanantions of any identified variants or mutations and I can always call Invitae and speak to a phd or md/phd type for clarification if needed. We even used to tease the clinical immunologist that he was just thoughtfully working his way to the inevitable invitae panel (...reminds me of the great cardiology diagnosticians prior to readily available echo and other cardiac imaging). I imagine the pay is absolutely terrible when compared to other fields since I don't see how genetics drives any significant revenue (academic pay for allergy is atrocious as well but we can easily bail to PP). It's probably a necessary cost a large institution in order to be accredited or reputable for all the various multidisciplinary stuff. I do imagine there's quite a bit of opportunity in industry for MD/PhD genetics experts but I just question the purely clinical roles. My guess is that you generally would be limited to very large institutions with a low floor and ceiling for pay.

I don't have any firsthand experience as a geneticist though so I'm happy to stand corrected. I would be curious for the two posters above who seemed to know more inside baseball...what does your day to day look like in terms of work as a medical geneticist? How do you contribute to the care of a patient differently than say a phd geneticist or genetic counselor? What kind of jobs are available? That's probably what the OP should be focusing on.


Totally agree. There is a big overlap in monogenic conditions that are seen by subspecialist vs clinical geneticist. Invitae is certainly changing the field
 
Well said. Clinically, I don't trust any specialty that only requires a 1-year prelim. You're barely a doctor (I give a pass to Rads and Anes).

If you want to be taken seriously as a physician (and be employable), you need to complete a primary care or primary surgical residency.
It’s one year prelim plus 2 years of genetics residency to become board eligible. Place that I trained and the current work place will not take anyone that didn’t complete a full residency. All of my colleagues trained in other primary specialty with peds being the larger group. They used to require 2 years before being able to join genetics residency, but the field needed more of us so shortened it. Combined programs used to be 5, but now they are 4 years for the same reason. In Canada genetics residency is 5 years.

Our clinic in both peds and internal medicine has wait list around 6 months to be seen. If we are that useless, I don’t see why we get so many referrals. There are inborn errors of metabolism that no one else manages. There are enzyme replacement therapies we manage. If you wanted to be board certified in medical biochemical genetics, it’s a year training after the genetics residency. That’s probably never going to go away. Nowadays, I get locum job offers for genetics pretty frequently.
 
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Maybe the invitae panels will actually increase the demand for clinical geneticists. Personally, I would like to have a readily available referral pathway to a genetics doc who could quarterback everything when these invitae panels come back with multiple VUS or a pathogenic mutation that isn't one I'm that familiar with.
 
There are very few places that splits adult genetics and pediatric genetics clinic. Unfortunately, you will have to see kids and babies during training since most genetic diagnosis are made in pediatrics.

There are late onset conditions or cases not diagnosed during peds that I see on the adult side. For patients with inborn errors of metabolism, we follow them from birth to death usually. I have trained with IM trained ones that see more adult patients than kids. I trained as family medicine first so I split my time in peds clinic as well but have more time in adult clinic.

There won’t be shortages for job opportunities unless you truly don’t want to see kids. Most job openings are through pediatric institutions.
Thanks @dr.z , so If I did either a combined IM-Genetics program or a Genetics fellowship after completing IM, I would be trained/able to see kids even if I hadn't done Peds prior? Also, do you have colleagues who do lab research? I know that a MD/PhD would be more useful for someone hoping to do research, but I am curious if you know any MD's in clinical genetics who work in research labs in addition to seeing patients?
 
Yes, you probably won’t have too much choice not to see kids unless you’re at a big center. You will have to be very good and comfortable seeing kids because good portion of your evaluations will be developmental assessments. Most of my adult trained ones try to not see patients under 16 or so.

Ones I know that does bench research I know are dual trained. I spend some time in lab, but unless you get K award during your training, it’s going to be very difficult to find places that will give you protected time. My protected time is very limited. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough of us so clinical demand is much much higher.

If you want to do research, one consideration is doing genetics and another sub speciality in medicine. It will be longer training but will give an opportunity to create a niche.
 
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Hi all, I am leaning pretty heavily towards applying to IM residency programs. I am looking into fellowships (and dual programs) and wondering about Medical Genetics.

What is the utility of a Medical Geneticist who is trained in Internal Medicine? Some people who I have mentioned this fellowship to were wondering why I don't go for pediatrics if I am doing genetics. And that made me wonder, what does a medical geneticist who takes care of adult patients do?

Thank you
Thanks for posting this question, OP. I am in the same position as you, although the salary for genetics is scaring me off... Data from the AAMC shows a median salary for an Assistant Prof to be $175k. For other posters - does this reflect what you may see out there?
 
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