Med school prestige, MD vs DO, specialty arguments are completely toxic

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My home program in rads does an integrated year, 9 months of medicine and 3 months rad as intern or alternatively 9 months of surgery and 3 months of Rads. The r1s say they hated medicine , but mostly due to the hours. Not sure if there was some educational benefit, but i dont think a few months of medicine is out of line for radiologists.

With the stereotype of “correlate clinically” being so prevalent, I’m guessing it would probably helpful if you don’t just look at it as something to get over with.

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[libertyyne]

With the stereotype of “correlate clinically” being so prevalent, I’m guessing it would probably helpful if you don’t just look at it as something to get over with.

Most of the radiology crew at my institution tried to avoid clinically correlate when possible, except for a few attendings that wanted to always cover their behinds. They would get angry at the IM docs for not giving a good indication or history for the exam though.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Most of the radiology crew at my institution tried to avoid clinically correlate when possible, except for a few attendings that wanted to always cover their behinds. They would get angry at the IM docs for not giving a good indication or history for the exam though.

Yeah I imagine that would be frustrating. We had a final exam during cardio/pulm/renal where we had to read some CXRs and they gave us a decent history and indication. If they just gave us a film with no info, some of them would have been a lot harder.

 

[Mass Effect]

So just to be clear: you don’t want schools to just teach to step 1 but it sounds like you’re school taught to step 1 pretty well

They actually didn't teach to Step 1. That's what I'm trying to say - Step 1 is not the be-all-end-all of medicine and the emphasis on it by med students (including myself back then) is the reason they're moving to P/F.

I’m not sure in what ways those shorter programs provide an inferior education. Feel free to enlighten me

As I said, the jury's still out. I think it only works for those who are truly committed to one field and one field only and if that field is primary care since, presumably, they'll get a well-rounded education that encompasses all the specialties.

Ah yes. Go ahead and call into question the quality of my education or my work ethic. Unless I’m misremembering, didn’t you not even take step 1? I might be confusing you with another poster if so my bad

When you're complaining that there's nothing to learn during clerkships, I do call into question the quality of your rotation or work ethic, particularly on rotations like IM. I don't think you'd find many people to agree with you that on their IM clerkships, they ran out of things to learn. Feel free to take a poll.

You say that but we have over a year of assessments in school to make sure we’re on track. I’m not sure studying for step by learning 18 months of medical school on your own is really equivalent to studying for the mcat for a few months after two years of college

Agreed. And really these arguments are coming from posters up in arms about NPs and their education, yet doing learn-at-your-own pace online modules with self-assessments for two years is no different than the online NP diploma mills.

Ya know I’m not against shortening residency training in most fields, but yeah that one seems dumb

I don't think it's dumb. My med school roommate went into radiology and he's said countless times that as much as he bitched about the prelim year, he's glad that was a requirement.

I tend to agree with you and that line of thinking. But then I think about all the psychiatrists and pathologists that are not out there being subpar docs

As a psychiatrist, I did 8 months of IM and neuro my intern year.

 

[Neopolymath]

With the stereotype of “correlate clinically” being so prevalent, I’m guessing it would probably helpful if you don’t just look at it as something to get over with.

That is a stereotype that exists mostly because people ordering CTs put things like "has diabetes" "in pain" etc. Of course non-specific findings are going to result in the proverbial middle finger of radiology in the report. Garbage in, garbage out and deservedly so.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That is a stereotype that exists mostly because people ordering CTs put things like "has diabetes" "in pain" etc. Of course non-specific findings are going to result in the proverbial middle finger of radiology in the report. Garbage in, garbage out and deservedly so.

I would love to see an indication that just says “has diabetes” haha

 

[libertyyne]

They actually didn't teach to Step 1. That's what I'm trying to say - Step 1 is not the be-all-end-all of medicine and the emphasis on it by med students (including myself back then) is the reason they're moving to P/F.



As I said, the jury's still out. I think it only works for those who are truly committed to one field and one field only and if that field is primary care since, presumably, they'll get a well-rounded education that encompasses all the specialties.



When you're complaining that there's nothing to learn during clerkships, I do call into question the quality of your rotation or work ethic, particularly on rotations like IM. I don't think you'd find many people to agree with you that on their IM clerkships, they ran out of things to learn. Feel free to take a poll.



Agreed. And really these arguments are coming from posters up in arms about NPs and their education, yet doing learn-at-your-own pace online modules with self-assessments for two years is no different than the online NP diploma mills.



I don't think it's dumb. My med school roommate went into radiology and he's said countless times that as much as he bitched about the prelim year, he's glad that was a requirement.



As a psychiatrist, I did 8 months of IM and neuro my intern year.

NP education is trash not because the preclinical part is online, it is trash because the preclinical part is shallow, doesnt cover everything you need, and is full of nursing research. And the clinical part is non standardized, and shallow.

Step 1 is good because it provides a clear benchmark of baseline knowledge. It is necessary because otherwise there is nothign stopping schools from teaching inconsequential nonsense that has very little application to clinical practice or real life.
The way to improve knowledge about all areas of medicine is to expand core rotations into those specialties with associated shelf exams. not trusting schools to give you a good idea. Preclinical curricula are designed by PHDs who wouldnt know clinical medicine if it was sitting on their lap.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Preclinical curricula are designed by PHDs who wouldnt know clinical medicine if it was sitting on their lap.

Our curriculum is designed primarily by MDs.

 

[Neopolymath]

I would love to see an indication that just says “has diabetes” haha

My rotation caused me to think everyone should be subject to at least 2 weeks of radiology in school. Same for a real anesthesia rotation. It would improve understanding, care, and relationships. I saw some truly *****ic stuff going on during both of these that would be rectified by even a basic understanding of these specialties.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My rotation caused me to think everyone should be subject to at least 2 weeks of radiology in school. Same for a real anesthesia rotation. It would improve understanding, care, and relationships. I saw some truly *****ic stuff going on during both of these that would be rectified by even a basic understanding of these specialties.

Yeah I’m glad we have a required anesthesiology rotation, and our cpr and neuro modules had heavy rads components. We had a rads practical exam as part of our cpr finals.

 

[Neopolymath]

Yeah I’m glad we have a required anesthesiology rotation, and our cpr and neuro modules had heavy rads components. We had a rads practical exam as part of our cpr finals.

One of the only positive aspects of my school's preclinical curriculum is an excellent radiology component for both years. Very grateful for my faculty who conducted these lectures.

 

[Ho0v-man]

They actually didn't teach to Step 1. That's what I'm trying to say - Step 1 is not the be-all-end-all of medicine and the emphasis on it by med students (including myself back then) is the reason they're moving to P/F.



As I said, the jury's still out. I think it only works for those who are truly committed to one field and one field only and if that field is primary care since, presumably, they'll get a well-rounded education that encompasses all the specialties.



When you're complaining that there's nothing to learn during clerkships, I do call into question the quality of your rotation or work ethic, particularly on rotations like IM. I don't think you'd find many people to agree with you that on their IM clerkships, they ran out of things to learn. Feel free to take a poll.



Agreed. And really these arguments are coming from posters up in arms about NPs and their education, yet doing learn-at-your-own pace online modules with self-assessments for two years is no different than the online NP diploma mills.



I don't think it's dumb. My med school roommate went into radiology and he's said countless times that as much as he bitched about the prelim year, he's glad that was a requirement.



As a psychiatrist, I did 8 months of IM and neuro my intern year.

So they didn’t teach much minutiae beyond step 1 but they also didn’t teach to step 1. Wow seems like they didn’t teach a whole lot so it’s surprising that you seem to know everything. I’m not saying it’s the end all be all. But with it going pass fail I think it’s totally possible to cover what you need to know for wards and passing the exam in less time than we give it now. Especially if the curricula stop gearing so heavily toward it like some do now. Other schools already do this.

I think if these 3 year curricula can adequately prepare someone to enter into primary care, that should be good enough for everyone. Let us graduate and if one wants to do additional rotations in anesthesia, surgery, path, or whatever else to figure out if they want to do it then we all shouldn’t have to pay the school for the honor of doing so. You said yourself the status quo is that most students don’t want/try to learn in 4th year but they enter into intern year anyway and do just fine. If these programs are adequate to produce a graduate who can enter into internal medicine then that should be sufficient considering that the vast majority of us enter into some form of a prelim med intern year anyway regardless of ultimate specialty choice. There may even be merit to an argument that these students would on average perform better because they don’t have the option to vacation and interview for months.

I’m not saying there’s nothing to learn, it’s just not going to be as useful as it would be when I have more responsibility. I’ll never learn as much as a med student with my limited ability to engage in patient care as I can with actual responsibility. Of course I can learn more to better prepare to a small degree. But it’s kind of getting to the point of prestudying for med school. You can learn more but it’ll be eclipsed by what you learn in intern year very quickly. I’ve had multiple residents and attendings tell me exactly this and they all thought the best part of fourth year was the vacation time and getting to check out fields they’ll never be exposed to again. I’m advocating for more responsibility and a real role in patient care. I guess that makes me lazy. I guess those residents and attendings who agree with me are also lazy. If only we were all rockstars like you I bet the physician shortage would be over.

I’ll reserve my opinion until I experience it myself. I’ve heard other rads say the opposite. Heard the people who did the prelim surgery say it’s useful though.

 

[Mass Effect]

NP education is trash not because the preclinical part is online, it is trash because the preclinical part is shallow, doesnt cover everything you need, and is full of nursing research. And the clinical part is non standardized, and shallow.

Step 1 is good because it provides a clear benchmark of baseline knowledge. It is necessary because otherwise there is nothign stopping schools from teaching inconsequential nonsense that has very little application to clinical practice or real life.
The way to improve knowledge about all areas of medicine is to expand core rotations into those specialties with associated shelf exams. not trusting schools to give you a good idea. Preclinical curricula are designed by PHDs who wouldnt know clinical medicine if it was sitting on their lap.

Actually, the majority of my curriculum was developed by and taught by physicians. Sure we had PhDs teaching Genetics and basic neuroscience was taught by PhD while clinical neuroscience was taught by a neurologist. The vast majority was physicians.

 

[libertyyne]

Actually, the majority of my curriculum was developed by and taught by physicians. Sure we had PhDs teaching Genetics and basic neuroscience was taught by PhD while clinical neuroscience was taught by a neurologist. The vast majority was physicians.

Our Preclinical Director was a PHD, some of our lectures were given by MDs but a majority of course directors were PHDs. I go to a mid tier school, i am sure I am not in the minority when it comes to this.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Our Preclinical Director was a PHD, some of our lectures were given by MDs but a majority of course directors were PHDs. I go to a mid tier school, i am sure I am not in the minority when it comes to this.

Then y’all’s schools need to change. Our entire curriculum was created by an MD, and each module has a couple module directors who direct things at the local level, almost all of whom are MDs.

 

[Mass Effect]

Our Preclinical Director was a PHD, some of our lectures were given by MDs but a majority of course directors were PHDs. I go to a mid tier school, i am sure I am not in the minority when it comes to this.

But that sounds like a school problem and is definitely not universal.

 

[Mass Effect]

So they didn’t teach much minutiae beyond step 1 but they also didn’t teach to step 1

I'm sorry, what? You're assuming that it's either teach to Step 1 or teach minutiae. It is possible to teach what you need to know to be a competent physician without teaching to Step 1.

Wow seems like they didn’t teach a whole lot so it’s surprising that you seem to know everything

Totally inappropriate on your part.

 

[libertyyne]

But that sounds like a school problem and is definitely not universal.

Hardly considering the rap preclinical PHDs have on this board.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's possible to disagree without resorting to insults and intentionally mischaracterizing people's arguments. Let's keep it civil. We're discussing med school curricula here, not something really heated and divisive like pineapple on pizza.

 

[Splenda88]

I guess this argument will go on... But based on where I attended med school, I think I can cut back 1 yr from the curriculum w/o significant effect, and most med students/physicians will agree with me. Most of the FMG who are practicing here went thru the 6-yr curriculum and studies have shown there no difference between them and US grads in term of quality of care they deliver.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

It would be interesting to have a study of two hospitalist services (newly grad NP vs. newly IM attending) at a major academic center and compare them after 2+ yrs. If outcome are similar, I will be ok with NP advocating independent practice in primary care in every state.

If equal census complexity and size and equal in terms of utilization of consults etc - it means that we would have to reinvent our entire training. Cause clearly we're wasting A LOT of time and energy.

Of course, that never happen. Anyone who has had a convo about pathophys or nuanced patient care with a non-physician knows there's a HUGE gap in knowledge.

 

[Mass Effect]

Hardly considering the rap preclinical PHDs have on this board.

What does that have to do with what I said? I said that it's a school problem when PhDs are put in charge of curriculum. What does "hardly" refer to?

I guess this argument will go on... But based on where I attended med school, I think I can cut back 1 yr from the curriculum w/o significant effect, and most med students/physicians will agree with me. Most of the FMG who are practicing here went thru the 6-yr curriculum and studies have shown there no difference between them and US grads in term of quality of care they deliver.

Right, and there are 6-year curriculums right here in the U.S. They produce great physicians. What they do is get rid of two years of undergrad, not a year of med school. The three-year med school programs essentially get rid of the 4th year of med school by training toward primary care from the outset.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What does that have to do with what I said? I said that it's a school problem when PhDs are put in charge of curriculum. What does "hardly" refer to?

I think he was just disagreeing with the idea that it’s not widespread.

 

[libertyyne]

If equal census complexity and size and equal in terms of utilization of consults etc - it means that we would have to reinvent our entire training. Cause clearly we're wasting A LOT of time and energy.

Of course, that never happen. Anyone who has had a convo about pathophys or nuanced patient care with a non-physician knows there's a HUGE gap in knowledge.

I would honestly just be content with them passing step 1, 2, 3 and the specialty board they wish to practice in . Im guessing less then 5 percent would actually be able to accomplish that.

What does that have to do with what I said? I said that it's a school problem when PhDs are put in charge of curriculum. What does "hardly" refer to?

Your implication is that it is an isolated instance, I would contend that it is not. I would go on to say that just the existence of such a curriculum undermines the argument that schools know best.

I think he was just disagreeing with the idea that it’s not widespread.

Correct.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I would honestly just be content with them passing step 1, 2, 3 and the specialty board they wish to practice in . Im guessing less then 5 percent would actually be able to accomplish that.

I’m betting for new grads it’s probably close to 1-2%.

 

[libertyyne]

I’m betting for new grads it’s probably close to 1-2%.

I think that is why this midlevel stuff rubs people the wrong way, it seems like people cheat their way into practicing medicine. Prescribing medications , diagnosis, and treatment is not a nursing function. It is literally practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine you should be held to the same standard for a seat at the table. I also am a firm believer that they should elim the Comlex and just use Step as a standard across the board.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think that is why this midlevel stuff rubs people the wrong way, it seems like people cheat their way into practicing medicine. Prescribing medications , diagnosis, and treatment is not a nursing function. It is literally practicing medicine. If you want to practice medicine you should be held to the same standard for a seat at the table. I also am a firm believer that they should elim the Comlex and just use Step as a standard across the board.

Which makes the decision that CRNAs can’t be held liable for medical malpractice even more bizarre.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm sorry, what? You're assuming that it's either teach to Step 1 or teach minutiae. It is possible to teach what you need to know to be a competent physician without teaching to Step 1.



Totally inappropriate on your part.

I was referring to an earlier post where you said that most of your curriculum was relevant to step 1 and had little minutiae. Then you said your school didn’t teach to it which is a contradiction. I never said you have to teach to step 1 to be a competent physician. You’re the only one who keeps bringing up teaching to step 1 and act like I’m advocating for it. I’m not sure why. When I mentioned cutting out the fluff in an earlier post, I was actually referring to the parts of step 1 that have little relevance.

I’m pretty much done because this argument is going nowhere. In fact, this isn’t the first time our joint stubbornness has caused us to ruin a thread like this so I’ll just block you after this and I encourage you to do the same.

I will say what’s really inappropriate is you questioning my work ethic because I don’t feel I can get much more out of this stage of training. For the record, I was top quartile at my school in preclinical and did well on boards. And my curriculum was VERY clinically relevant and didn’t give a crap about boards. I did this by studying essentially every day for 8+ hours per day 7 days per week (half days over summer). Then I went on to honor every rotation and got good evals overall.

You were dismissed from your school and had to beg to get back in. You didn’t even pass step 1. Despite earlier claiming it demonstrates the minimal level of competence of a med student (your words paraphrased), you didn’t achieve it. You must be a big deal in residency to have such an ego about you because it sounds like you barely scraped by in med school.

If we were in med school together, 10/10 people would tell you I worked harder than you. So I don’t think it’s appropriate to call my work ethic into question just because I don’t agree with you. I’m not trying to say that this makes you a poor physician or anything. I just find it frustrating that you’re lumping me in with some stereotype that wants to do the bare minimum and memorize first aid when I’m just trying to point out that there’s excessive bloat in our current educational model.

 

[Splenda88]

@HoOv-man

That's how it work in medicine... "If I did it, why shouldn't you?" We all know deep down our heart the 4-yr med school curriculum can be turned into a 3-yr without even getting rid off anything. It can be done easily by just doing some restructuring.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

@HoOv-man

That's how it work in medicine... "If I did it, why shouldn't you?" We all know deep down our heart the 4-yr med school curriculum can be turned into a 3-yr without even getting rid off anything. It can be done easily by just doing some restructuring.

I find it fairly insulting that you actually think this is the reason. I don't make any money for education so it has literally zero effect on me and you think those of us who aren't 100% behind a major change to medical education only care about forcing y'all to do something because we had to?

A fair number of us also had to do 30 hour calls as interns. I still prefer that, on a personal level, but if other interns like the current rules that's fine.

I wouldn't have wanted to do a 6 year program, but I don't care if schools do that either.

So maybe if we are cautious about shortening med school, it's not pure selfishness.

 

[Neopolymath]

I was referring to an earlier post where you said that most of your curriculum was relevant to step 1 and had little minutiae. Then you said your school didn’t teach to it which is a contradiction. I never said you have to teach to step 1 to be a competent physician. You’re the only one who keeps bringing up teaching to step 1 and act like I’m advocating for it. I’m not sure why. When I mentioned cutting out the fluff in an earlier post, I was actually referring to the parts of step 1 that have little relevance.

I’m pretty much done because this argument is going nowhere. In fact, this isn’t the first time our joint stubbornness has caused us to ruin a thread like this so I’ll just block you after this and I encourage you to do the same.

I will say what’s really inappropriate is you questioning my work ethic because I don’t feel I can get much more out of this stage of training. For the record, I was top quartile at my school in preclinical and did well on boards. And my curriculum was VERY clinically relevant and didn’t give a crap about boards. I did this by studying essentially every day for 8+ hours per day 7 days per week (half days over summer). Then I went on to honor every rotation and got good evals overall.

You were dismissed from your school and had to beg to get back in. You didn’t even pass step 1. Despite earlier claiming it demonstrates the minimal level of competence of a med student (your words paraphrased), you didn’t achieve it. You must be a big deal in residency to have such an ego about you because it sounds like you barely scraped by in med school.

If we were in med school together, 10/10 people would tell you I worked harder than you. So I don’t think it’s appropriate to call my work ethic into question just because I don’t agree with you. I’m not trying to say that this makes you a poor physician or anything. I just find it frustrating that you’re lumping me in with some stereotype that wants to do the bare minimum and memorize first aid when I’m just trying to point out that there’s excessive bloat in our current educational model.

This guy also advocates for the PE. I've had him blocked forever but read his posts anyways because they are entertaining in how fast he flips that switch.

 

[Mass Effect]

I was referring to an earlier post where you said that most of your curriculum was relevant to step 1 and had little minutiae. Then you said your school didn’t teach to it which is a contradiction

No, it's not a contradiction which is what I've been saying from the start.

You were dismissed from your school and had to beg to get back in

Speaking of inappropriate....

You didn’t even pass step 1. Despite earlier claiming it demonstrates the minimal level of competence of a med student (your words paraphrased), you didn’t achieve it

Where are you getting that I didn't pass Step 1?

You must be a big deal in residency to have such an ego about you because it sounds like you barely scraped by in med school

I actually did okay in med school. I didn't do fantastic, but I did okay, despite early stumbles which I previously posted to help others who were in the same boat or similar boat because I actually do have sympathy for those whose path is harder.

If we were in med school together, 10/10 people would tell you I worked harder than you

Wow. Just. Wow.

 

[libertyyne]

I find it fairly insulting that you actually think this is the reason. I don't make any money for education so it has literally zero effect on me and you think those of us who aren't 100% behind a major change to medical education only care about forcing y'all to do something because we had to?

A fair number of us also had to do 30 hour calls as interns. I still prefer that, on a personal level, but if other interns like the current rules that's fine.

I wouldn't have wanted to do a 6 year program, but I don't care if schools do that either.

So maybe if we are cautious about shortening med school, it's not pure selfishness.

although it might not be selfishness for you, its hard to see how its not an act of continuously pulling the ladder up to benefit those that have gone through allready. Like Peds hospitalists requiring fellowships, continuously lengthening training requirements or adding on additional expensive certification tests etc.
A large number of these decisions have very little in terms of evidence to support them, yet they continuously get sold as necessary for patient safety and quality yet in the same breath they support midlevels doing whatever without real supervision at these same hospitals and organizations.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

although it might not be selfishness for you, its hard to see how its not an act of continuously pulling the ladder up to benefit those that have gone through allready. Like Peds hospitalists requiring fellowships, continuously lengthening training requirements or adding on additional expensive certification tests etc.
A large number of these decisions have very little in terms of evidence to support them, yet they continuously get sold as necessary for patient safety and quality yet in the same breath they support midlevels doing whatever without real supervision at these same hospitals and organizations.

Have I ever said I supported making training longer or adding previously unneeded fellowships?

I'm pretty sure I even said earlier this week in a different part of this forum that those hospitalist fellowships are stupid.

I'm also pretty sure that earlier in this exact same thread I pointed out that I don't think mid-levels are anywhere close to our equals.

Interestingly, in the seven years I've been out my board certification group has actually made it easier instead of harder. They've decreased some of the requirements and are right now piloting a plan to do away with the huge every 10-year exam.

Now you could make the argument that some in medicine feel as you say, and if true I suspect that a majority of those would be in academics. There's a good reason that a large number of us who are not in academics hold some of those who are in a certain amount of disdain.

 

[libertyyne]

Have I ever said I supported making training longer or adding previously unneeded fellowships?

I'm pretty sure I even said earlier this week in a different part of this forum that those hospitalist fellowships are stupid.

I'm also pretty sure that earlier in this exact same thread I pointed out that I don't think mid-levels are anywhere close to our equals.

Interestingly, in the seven years I've been out my board certification group has actually made it easier instead of harder. They've decreased some of the requirements and are right now piloting a plan to do away with the huge every 10-year exam.

Now you could make the argument that some in medicine feel as you say, and if true I suspect that a majority of those would be in academics. There's a good reason that a large number of us who are not in academics hold some of those who are in a certain amount of disdain.

I am not accusing you of any of those behaviors, rather Just airing a grievance from us still in training. This is just what it looks and feels like for some of us below looking up.

 

[Mass Effect]

although it might not be selfishness for you, its hard to see how its not an act of continuously pulling the ladder up to benefit those that have gone through allready. Like Peds hospitalists requiring fellowships, continuously lengthening training requirements or adding on additional expensive certification tests etc.
A large number of these decisions have very little in terms of evidence to support them, yet they continuously get sold as necessary for patient safety and quality yet in the same breath they support midlevels doing whatever without real supervision at these same hospitals and organizations.

I have no opinion on peds hospitalists since I don't know the first thing about it, but I disagree with you that those out of training are "pulling the ladder up." I've posted endlessly about things that need to be changed in medicine to make things easier on those still in training including stricter monitoring of duty hours, zero tolerance for senior/attending bullying, de-stigmatization of mental health of med students and residents, reducing the cost of med school, etc, etc, etc. No one has said medical education is perfect. Some of us just don't agree that the way to fix it is to reduce the number of years in med school and/or making pre-clinical curriculum online.

I think the problem is here is assigning nefarious or manipulative motives to those of us out of training who think none of our education was wasted, as if we can't genuinely have that opinion now that we're on the other side.

 

[libertyyne]

Back to the tangent of 3 year medical school, NYU already offers this for not only primary care but for any of their 21 residency programs so the point is kinda weird that people think its not possible, one of the best schools in the country thinks it is and is offering it.

Accelerated Three-Year MD | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine’s three-year MD pathway offers students early entry into a variety of specialties, as well as financial savings.

med.nyu.edu

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Back to the tangent of 3 year medical school, NYU already offers this for not only primary care but for any of their 21 residency programs so the point is kinda weird that people think its not possible, one of the best schools in the country thinks it is and is offering it.

Accelerated Three-Year MD | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine’s three-year MD pathway offers students early entry into a variety of specialties, as well as financial savings.

med.nyu.edu

I think you've got it backwards. One of the best schools in the country can do that because they get the best students in the country.

I've known people who could probably have done pre-clinical in 6 months and still kicked my ass on Step 1 and clinical rotations. Doesn't mean that we can or should have everyone do that.

 

[Mass Effect]

Back to the tangent of 3 year medical school, NYU already offers this for not only primary care but for any of their 21 residency programs so the point is kinda weird that people think its not possible, one of the best schools in the country thinks it is and is offering it.

Accelerated Three-Year MD | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine’s three-year MD pathway offers students early entry into a variety of specialties, as well as financial savings.

med.nyu.edu

About dozens of posts ago, I said that if you already have your specialty in mind and already have residency lined up, then yes, you can get rid of 4th year. That's the NYU model. This works because 4th year is all about auditions, electives, interviews, and the match. So yeah, if you have residency lined up already, you don't need auditions, interviews, and the match, and can likely take an elective or two during 3rd year. There's nothing wrong with that program. What I said was that while it works in these situations, it wouldn't work for the average med student who (a) doesn't know which specialty they'll pick and (b) doesn't have a residency acceptance, conditional or otherwise.

 

[libertyyne]

I have no opinion on peds hospitalists since I don't know the first thing about it, but I disagree with you that those out of training are "pulling the ladder up." I've posted endlessly about things that need to be changed in medicine to make things easier on those still in training including stricter monitoring of duty hours, zero tolerance for senior/attending bullying, de-stigmatization of mental health of med students and residents, reducing the cost of med school, etc, etc, etc. No one has said medical education is perfect. Some of us just don't agree that the way to fix it is to reduce the number of years in med school and/or making pre-clinical curriculum online.

I think the problem is here is assigning nefarious or manipulative motives to those of us out of training who think none of our education was wasted, as if we can't genuinely have that opinion now that we're on the other side.

We arent the ones training midlevels.
we arent the ones increasing training duration, peds hospitalist, neurosurgery6->7 , defacto required fellowships in many fields.
we arent hoisting interdisciplinary nonsense in curricula
I dont know what the motivation is for people doing this, but there is very little evidence to support these decisions . Its not a good look and if the shoe fits...
I am not assigning these motivations to any posters here.

Many of us dont want it easier, we just want the same deal that previous generations had in terms of relative cost and duration, not added years of indentured servitude.

I think you've got it backwards. One of the best schools in the country can do that because they get the best students in the country.

I've known people who could probably have done pre-clinical in 6 months and still kicked my ass on Step 1 and clinical rotations. Doesn't mean that we can or should have everyone do that.

I dont know, most of us didnt think we could learn of stuff taught in preclinical at the pace and speed that they teach it at currently yet were able to rise to the occasion.
Plus all of these schools are not getting top tier applicants

Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine aims to guide other medical schools as part of the Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs.

med.nyu.edu

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We arent the ones training midlevels.
we arent the ones increasing training duration, peds hospitalist, neurosurgery6->7 , defacto required fellowships in many fields.
we arent hoisting interdisciplinary nonsense in curricula
I dont know what the motivation is for people doing this, but there is very little evidence to support these decisions . Its not a good look and if the shoe fits...
I am not assigning these motivations to any posters here.

Many of us dont want it easier, we just want the same deal that previous generations had in terms of relative cost and duration, not added years of indentured servitude.

I dont know, most of us didnt think we could learn of stuff taught in preclinical at the pace and speed that they teach it at currently yet were able to rise to the occasion.
Plus all of these schools are not getting top tier applicants

Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine aims to guide other medical schools as part of the Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs.

med.nyu.edu

So I looked into the 3 year program at MUSC since I'm from SC.

You can apply after your first year and you have to have done very well in that first year, so yes it is the top tier applicants.

As for the first part of your post, most of us want the same for y'all.

 

[Mass Effect]

We arent the ones training midlevels.
we arent the ones increasing training duration, peds hospitalist, neurosurgery6->7 , defacto required fellowships in many fields.
we arent hoisting interdisciplinary nonsense in curricula
I dont know what the motivation is for people doing this, but there is very little evidence to support these decisions . Its not a good look and if the shoe fits...
I am not assigning these motivations to any posters here

Yeah, the posters here are not the ones doing those things, so the animosity toward us saying that 3-year med school is a mistake (except in limited cases) is puzzling. One of the good things about medicine is that eventually, everyone finishes training and has the ability to become a decision-maker. Problem is too many people don't want the hassle.

Many of us dont want it easier, we just want the same deal that previous generations had in terms of relative cost and duration, not added years of indentured servitude

I can respect that. And those of us on the other side should put our efforts into improving the system so that you should have it better, less debt, less abuse. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the posts popping up where posters want 3 years instead of 4 and if you don't agree, it's because you're an idiot who's in the "I did it so you should too" camp. That's not a good look.

I dont know, most of us didnt think we could learn of stuff taught in preclinical at the pace and speed that they teach it at currently yet were able to rise to the occasion.
Plus all of these schools are not getting top tier applicants

Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman School of Medicine aims to guide other medical schools as part of the Consortium of Accelerated Medical Pathway Programs.

med.nyu.edu

The program at NYU is very competitive. It isn't like every student accepted to med school there gets into that specific program. This is a minority of students who can get that residency position before even starting med school. Most U.S. med students would not fall into that category.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah, the posters here are not the ones doing those things, so the animosity toward us saying that 3-year med school is a mistake (except in limited cases) is puzzling. One of the good things about medicine is that eventually, everyone finishes training and has the ability to become a decision-maker. Problem is too many people don't want the hassle.

I can respect that. And those of us on the other side should put our efforts into improving the system so that you should have it better, less debt, less abuse. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the posts popping up where posters want 3 years instead of 4 and if you don't agree, it's because you're an idiot who's in the "I did it so you should too" camp. That's not a good look.

The way I treat students who rotate with me is directly shaped by stuff I went through when I was a student. We all have a handful (or more) interactions that stick with us because of a strong positive/negative impact. It's not hard to use those to improve, even if only in minor ways, things for current students.

 

[Splenda88]

I think you've got it backwards. One of the best schools in the country can do that because they get the best students in the country.

I've known people who could probably have done pre-clinical in 6 months and still kicked my ass on Step 1 and clinical rotations. Doesn't mean that we can or should have everyone do that.

University of Miami is doing is as well but they have 1 yr requirement of research...

Were you guys arguing the restructuring would be hard? Now the argument is that it's ok to do for smart people...whatever that means.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

University of Miami is doing is as well but they have 1 yr requirement of research...

Were you guys arguing the restructuring would be hard? Now the argument is that it's ok to do for smart people...whatever that means.

That wasn’t the argument and I think you know that. We can debate the topic without purposely mischaracterizing the other side.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

University of Miami is doing is as well but they have 1 yr requirement of research...

Were you guys arguing the restructuring would be hard? Now the argument is that it's ok to do for smart people...whatever that means.

Duke has been doing it since I was in undergrad. Doesn't mean it's for everyone.

 

[Splenda88]

Don't you guys see a list of school in the link that are doing i as well. A lot of them are low tier med schools.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Don't you guys see a list of school in the link that are doing i as well. A lot of them are low tier med schools.

Your reading comprehension isn't the best:

So I looked into the 3 year program at MUSC since I'm from SC.

You can apply after your first year and you have to have done very well in that first year, so yes it is the top tier applicants.

As for the first part of your post, most of us want the same for y'all.

 

[Splenda88]

Duke has been doing it since I was in undergrad. Doesn't mean it's for everyone.

That is not a good argument. Nothing in this world is good for everyone. 3-yr curriculum is good for the majority.

 

[Splenda88]

Your reading comprehension isn't the best:

Now the insult... Great.