MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

[CaribKid]

We're really re-opening this to troll-like conversations.....

I *guess* I'll watch how this plays out. CaribKid, care to calmnly discuss our own individual concerns about the adversity of boards. Something that we both take and really defines us. Rather than discussing all the biases that may or may not exist and letting some suspicious and uncited numbers incite people from my camp into nazi-like hate speech which is wholly unnecessary

I would be happy to discuss a few of the possibly mis-leading statements from both sides. Again, I preface this with the fact that I am nearing the end of my second year at AUC, so I have seen quite a few classes come and go.

When HockeyDr states that AUC admits upwards of 380 students a year, that is roughly correct. The last three semesters have been as follows: 102 in May (roughly, had a few people leave in the first week, we settled at about 95), 218 in September (again, same situation, settled out at about 200) and about 98 in January. So say, about 400 currently. This last May class is at 95 right now.

However, when HockeyDr uses this number for 2006 data, this is a bit misleading (not a shot at HockeyDr, I just don't agree with his assumption on the data, that's all). The 218 class is the largest AUC has ever had, and the May/January classes are historically around 90 or less. Thus, I wouldn't say 58% is a good number. I mentioned this previously, and discussed some points a bit. Ultimately, it's a bit of guesstimation. I think the 2006 September class was probably a great deal smaller, possibly by 100 people. I will have to ask around, do a little research.

When Dr. Fraud says that the AUC Match Rate is over 90%, this is incorrect. The 2011 match rate was 84%, and in 2010 it was at 90%. Not over 90%.

I want to make a point about the attrition issue. As I have said before, I definitely have not seen 50% of the people in my class leave. Not even close. Do people leave? Yes, but this isn't a school issue, it is a student issue. The Carib accepts a lower caliber student; simply put, some will struggle. Also, some of the support that is available to US MD students is not available to Carib students. If you fail a class, you fail. There is no remediation or summer school...you just fail, and have to take it over again. Fail it twice, you are dismissed. There are no "make ups" or any extra work to supplement your grade. Thus, for students who maybe shouldn't have been accepted, it is easier to fail out. But don't blame the school, unless you want to say AUC sometimes accepts students they shouldn't. The quality of education is excellent in Basic Sciences, and the profs are pretty good. I would estimate 25% of my current class has failed a class.

Also, I would like to make a point about the statement as to how AUC only allows some students to take the Step. I would say this is a bit misleading. You take the Comprehensive Exam here, and this is not different from most other med schools. You get 4 opportunities to pass it. The first attempt is given two months into the final Basic Sciences semester, the 2nd about a month after that, and the 3rd about a month after that. If you fail all three, then you get an opportunity to take it a 4th time next semester, after a few more months of studying, and a required "remedial" study program, which the school watches over. If you fail a 4th time, you are dismissed and not allowed to sit for the Step. I really don't think this is unreasonable, and definitely is not an attempt by the school to weed out folks to make their stats look better. I mean, 4 attempts and a study program? That's a decent amount of support given at the end of the Basic Sciences road.

Finally, someone pointed out that the stats don't say how many times someone has tried to match. I am not aware of any med school that gives that info out. However, I really have not heard any stories from upperclassmen about going through the match 3-4 times. Sure, some will go through twice. But I have not seen anything more than that. Only my experience though. Does this clarify anything, DocEspana?

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[patel2]

I would be happy to discuss a few of the possibly mis-leading statements from both sides. Again, I preface this with the fact that I am nearing the end of my second year at AUC, so I have seen quite a few classes come and go.

When HockeyDr states that AUC admits upwards of 380 students a year, that is roughly correct. The last three semesters have been as follows: 102 in May (roughly, had a few people leave in the first week, we settled at about 95), 218 in September (again, same situation, settled out at about 200) and about 98 in January. So say, about 400 currently. This last May class is at 95 right now.

However, when HockeyDr uses this number for 2006 data, this is a bit misleading (not a shot at HockeyDr, I just don't agree with his assumption on the data, that's all). The 218 class is the largest AUC has ever had, and the May/January classes are historically around 90 or less. Thus, I wouldn't say 58% is a good number. I mentioned this previously, and discussed some points a bit. Ultimately, it's a bit of guesstimation. I think the 2006 September class was probably a great deal smaller, possibly by 100 people. I will have to ask around, do a little research.

When Dr. Fraud says that the AUC Match Rate is over 90%, this is incorrect. The 2011 match rate was 84%, and in 2010 it was at 90%. Not over 90%.

I want to make a point about the attrition issue. As I have said before, I definitely have not seen 50% of the people in my class leave. Not even close. Do people leave? Yes, but this isn't a school issue, it is a student issue. The Carib accepts a lower caliber student; simply put, some will struggle. Also, some of the support that is available to US MD students is not available to Carib students. If you fail a class, you fail. There is no remediation or summer school...you just fail, and have to take it over again. Fail it twice, you are dismissed. There are no "make ups" or any extra work to supplement your grade. Thus, for students who maybe shouldn't have been accepted, it is easier to fail out. But don't blame the school, unless you want to say AUC sometimes accepts students they shouldn't. The quality of education is excellent in Basic Sciences, and the profs are pretty good. I would estimate 25% of my current class has failed a class.

Also, I would like to make a point about the statement as to how AUC only allows some students to take the Step. I would say this is a bit misleading. You take the Comprehensive Exam here, and this is not different from most other med schools. You get 4 opportunities to pass it. The first attempt is given two months into the final Basic Sciences semester, the 2nd about a month after that, and the 3rd about a month after that. If you fail all three, then you get an opportunity to take it a 4th time next semester, after a few more months of studying, and a required "remedial" study program, which the school watches over. If you fail a 4th time, you are dismissed and not allowed to sit for the Step. I really don't think this is unreasonable, and definitely is not an attempt by the school to weed out folks to make their stats look better. I mean, 4 attempts and a study program? That's a decent amount of support given at the end of the Basic Sciences road.

Finally, someone pointed out that the stats don't say how many times someone has tried to match. I am not aware of any med school that gives that info out. However, I really have not heard any stories from upperclassmen about going through the match 3-4 times. Sure, some will go through twice. But I have not seen anything more than that. Only my experience though. Does this clarify anything, DocEspana?

there is no similar exam or internal exam that is required for students to sit in on for the boards at any US MD/DO school.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I would be happy to discuss a few of the possibly mis-leading statements from both sides. Again, I preface this with the fact that I am nearing the end of my second year at AUC, so I have seen quite a few classes come and go.

When HockeyDr states that AUC admits upwards of 380 students a year, that is roughly correct. The last three semesters have been as follows: 102 in May (roughly, had a few people leave in the first week, we settled at about 95), 218 in September (again, same situation, settled out at about 200) and about 98 in January. So say, about 400 currently. This last May class is at 95 right now.

However, when HockeyDr uses this number for 2006 data, this is a bit misleading (not a shot at HockeyDr, I just don't agree with his assumption on the data, that's all). The 218 class is the largest AUC has ever had, and the May/January classes are historically around 90 or less. Thus, I wouldn't say 58% is a good number. I mentioned this previously, and discussed some points a bit. Ultimately, it's a bit of guesstimation. I think the 2006 September class was probably a great deal smaller, possibly by 100 people. I will have to ask around, do a little research.

When Dr. Fraud says that the AUC Match Rate is over 90%, this is incorrect. The 2011 match rate was 84%, and in 2010 it was at 90%. Not over 90%.

I want to make a point about the attrition issue. As I have said before, I definitely have not seen 50% of the people in my class leave. Not even close. Do people leave? Yes, but this isn't a school issue, it is a student issue. The Carib accepts a lower caliber student; simply put, some will struggle. Also, some of the support that is available to US MD students is not available to Carib students. If you fail a class, you fail. There is no remediation or summer school...you just fail, and have to take it over again. Fail it twice, you are dismissed. There are no "make ups" or any extra work to supplement your grade. Thus, for students who maybe shouldn't have been accepted, it is easier to fail out. But don't blame the school, unless you want to say AUC sometimes accepts students they shouldn't. The quality of education is excellent in Basic Sciences, and the profs are pretty good. I would estimate 25% of my current class has failed a class.

Also, I would like to make a point about the statement as to how AUC only allows some students to take the Step. I would say this is a bit misleading. You take the Comprehensive Exam here, and this is not different from most other med schools. You get 4 opportunities to pass it. The first attempt is given two months into the final Basic Sciences semester, the 2nd about a month after that, and the 3rd about a month after that. If you fail all three, then you get an opportunity to take it a 4th time next semester, after a few more months of studying, and a required "remedial" study program, which the school watches over. If you fail a 4th time, you are dismissed and not allowed to sit for the Step. I really don't think this is unreasonable, and definitely is not an attempt by the school to weed out folks to make their stats look better. I mean, 4 attempts and a study program? That's a decent amount of support given at the end of the Basic Sciences road.

Finally, someone pointed out that the stats don't say how many times someone has tried to match. I am not aware of any med school that gives that info out. However, I really have not heard any stories from upperclassmen about going through the match 3-4 times. Sure, some will go through twice. But I have not seen anything more than that. Only my experience though. Does this clarify anything, DocEspana?

You're right, it looks like AUC had ~300 students enrolled (page 8) for the class of 2010. 187 matched into a residency for a rate of 62%. The document also has some other interesting pieces of information regarding the direction AUC was looking to go with it's training, and how they felt it would be improving.

I was actually using 340 for the calculation not 380. I updated the previous post to 300 students, changing the % from 55% to 62%

 

[HockeyDr09]

Hockey, of course when comparing any of these statistics, you should keep in mind the philosophy of Caribbean medical schools in regards to medschool admissions. With lower admission standards, there are far more students that simply don't make the cut and are either dismissed or make the decision that studying in a foreign country with the stresses of medical school simply isn't for them.

Caribbean students who may be on the verge of failing, depressed or have other issues also have far fewer resources available to them compared to students at a DO school. You are basically on your own, in a third world country. But the classes that do make it through because their backgrounds had adequately prepared them for the rigors of medical schools, were mature enough and frankly were strong enough, DO have a high match rate into ACGME residencies.

Simply said, there are a lot more factors that dictate whether a student is retained in their class when you are in the Caribbean than is the case when you are studying at a DO school in the US. Thus, comparing all these statistics is really useless. If you are confident that you won't fail out of medical school based on your previous academic performance, level of maturity, etc. then either route will work.

You need to decide which will affect your professional and personal life more: having the DO after your name or having graduated from the Caribbean with an MD. It is a very much personal decision. I hope all these statistics make the decision easier for you but keep in mind that statistics lie and there is always a story behind them.

The point that I've been trying to make is that if you have the opportunity to attend either a DO school or a Caribbean MD school, why take the risk of the Caribbean MD school (aside from the fact that you'd prefer an MD after your name). You've already stated that there are additional stresses and fewer resources when studying in a foreign country, and that there are far more students who don't make the cut (for whatever reason). I've shown the data (which doesn't lie) showing better match rates for DO schools, and showing that there are more options available to you as a DO graduate (AOA + NRMP match).

I have just as much respect for Caribbean students as I do for any other students. It doesn't even bother me if students would prefer to have the MD after their name than DO. It just seems to me that you have a better chance/probability of matching where you want to match going to a DO school.

 

[TriagePreMed]

That's the one thing I don't understand about Caribbean students. They seem to have a chip on their shoulder. I've yet to meet a D.O. student going around proclaiming superiority over Caribbean students. The only thing that is seen here is a healthy discussion on what makes the most sense to do if faced with having to make this decision between going to D.O. school or the Caribbean.

 

[Instatewaiter]

That's the one thing I don't understand about Caribbean students. They seem to have a chip on their shoulder. I've yet to meet a D.O. student going around proclaiming superiority over Caribbean students. The only thing that is seen here is a healthy discussion on what makes the most sense to do if faced with having to make this decision between going to D.O. school or the Caribbean.

Have you been reading the same thread that I have?

 

[DocEspana]

Is it fair to say that this is really a debate over whether you want a better statistical change in harder to get residencies (regardless of which accrediting body you get it from) vs a lower statistical chance (it still exists, just noting its lower) but you get to keep the famous MD title? Cant we just simplify it down to that first, then build up all the minuteia.

It seems that way to me. I've never (at least as far as I've consciously tried) put down offshore students. I do greatly dislike the schools themselves for certain decisions they've made, but that doesn't effect the quality of the students they send back to the US for rotations. I think that seems fair.

 

[donkeykong1]

Have you been reading the same thread that I have?

hey bro, maybe you should check out some of the comments carib students make on their valuemd "website"

 

[gravitywave]

AUC isn't the only Carib school that requires passage of a comprehensive exam before students are allowed to sit for Step I. these schools do this so they can root out some of the weaker students who might otherwise compromise their Step pass rates. We have a comprehensive basic science exam here too (US MD school) but it only exists to let people know where they stand going into the Step study period.

also, i think it's worth mentioning that, out of the pdf that Fraud posted, 178 PGY-1 matches and 11 PGY-2 matches. 24 of the PGY-1 matches are not categorical tracks (med-prelim, transitional, surg-prelim). if it were me, i would ignore any of those 24 matches that wasn't balanced out on the other side by a PGY-2 slot, because these aren't getting the matchees on a path to being board certified. so the true match rate (out of ~300 who started) was (189-24)/300 or 55%. yes, i recognize that some of these people do get into categorical track programs eventually and that this pdf doesn't speak to that, but it's another source of loss.

again, compare to 90+% at DO and ~95% at US MD. other posters in this thread can rationalize away the lack of student support at Carib schools, but it does result in people being washed out who would not have been, had they attended a US school.

 

[CaribKid]

AUC isn't the only Carib school that requires passage of a comprehensive exam before students are allowed to sit for Step I. these schools do this so they can root out some of the weaker students who might otherwise compromise their Step pass rates. We have a comprehensive basic science exam here too (US MD school) but it only exists to let people know where they stand going into the Step study period.

also, i think it's worth mentioning that, out of the pdf that Fraud posted, 178 PGY-1 matches and 11 PGY-2 matches. 24 of the PGY-1 matches are not categorical tracks (med-prelim, transitional, surg-prelim). if it were me, i would ignore any of those 24 matches that wasn't balanced out on the other side by a PGY-2 slot, because these aren't getting the matchees on a path to being board certified. so the true match rate (out of ~300 who started) was (189-24)/300 or 55%. yes, i recognize that some of these people do get into categorical track programs eventually and that this pdf doesn't speak to that, but it's another source of loss.

again, compare to 90+% at DO and ~95% at US MD. other posters in this thread can rationalize away the lack of student support at Carib schools, but it does result in people being washed out who would not have been, had they attended a US school.

I do understand your point, however, they were not accepted to a US MD school. The blame here falls on the student, not the school. The students that fail were not accepted to a US MD school for a reason, and if for some reason they had been, they would've struggled there too. The Carib schools simply accept some students who don't cut it. Attrition comes down to the student, ultimately. US MD schools accept higher caliber students (based on undergrad performance) right off the bat, thus it is much less likely a student will fail.

Again, I really do disagree that AUC weeds out the weaker students at the Comp. By that time, by and large, the weaker students have already weeded themselves out. Last semester, to my knowledge, only one student failed the Comp all three times, out of about 180 (guesstimate) who took it. There may be a few more, but its a small school and I would be a bit surprised I haven't heard. Either way, we are taking possibly a handful, not droves of students. If it was truly a weeding out process, you would see many, many more not passing the Comp. Also, keep in mind the student who failed still has a 4th chance to try and pass it. The weeding out by Comp thing may have been true in the past, but that's just not the way it is today.

 

[CaribKid]

Is it fair to say that this is really a debate over whether you want a better statistical change in harder to get residencies (regardless of which accrediting body you get it from) vs a lower statistical chance (it still exists, just noting its lower) but you get to keep the famous MD title? Cant we just simplify it down to that first, then build up all the minuteia.

It seems that way to me. I've never (at least as far as I've consciously tried) put down offshore students. I do greatly dislike the schools themselves for certain decisions they've made, but that doesn't effect the quality of the students they send back to the US for rotations. I think that seems fair.

Yeah, I would say that's pretty much the argument. Unless you couldn't get into a DO school, and just Carib. Then, you just have to work your butt off to prove everyone wrong.

 

[gravitywave]

I do understand your point, however, they were not accepted to a US MD school. The blame here falls on the student, not the school. The students that fail were not accepted to a US MD school for a reason, and if for some reason they had been, they would've struggled there too. The Carib schools simply accept some students who don't cut it. Attrition comes down to the student, ultimately. US MD schools accept higher caliber students (based on undergrad performance) right off the bat, thus it is much less likely a student will fail.

Again, I really do disagree that AUC weeds out the weaker students at the Comp. By that time, by and large, the weaker students have already weeded themselves out. Last semester, to my knowledge, only one student failed the Comp all three times, out of about 180 (guesstimate) who took it. There may be a few more, but its a small school and I would be a bit surprised I haven't heard. Either way, we are taking possibly a handful, not droves of students. If it was truly a weeding out process, you would see many, many more not passing the Comp. Also, keep in mind the student who failed still has a 4th chance to try and pass it. The wedding out by Comp thing ma have been true in the past, but that's just not the way it is today.

i think my point is that you underestimate the importance of student support at US schools. there are some people who are accepted to US schools who make it through, with no blemishes on their records, who likely would have failed out of a Caribbean school. the reason they make it is because of the better student support at US schools. here people can remediate failed courses (ok, that will probably end up on a transcript), get tutoring, exam accommodations, you name it. schools bend over backwards to ensure that everyone graduates, even if it takes six years. the people who struggle are coached through. Down south, it's all on you: if you struggle, you can very easily be out (and with a pile of federal loan debt that's impossible to discharge.)

I can appreciate that the folks who couldn't cut it in basic science have already gone by the time of the comprehensive. I didn't mean to suggest that the comp basic sci exam is "out to get you" at any school, but it is another hurdle at some Carib schools, one that some students do not get past. this is in stark contrast to US schools, in which students are given virtually every possible aid to succeed. it's one more way in which Carib students are handicapped in comparison to their US colleagues and people who are trying to decide between the two need to know that.

 

[Dr Yiot]

Have you been reading the same thread that I have?

Lmao I was thinking the same thing.
People on this thread need to relax and let go. Regardless of path and who has a better match rate, there is no reason for hostility towards eachother. We all have the same goal, to become physicians and help people so we shouldn't be going at eachothers necks.

This thread is very educational, however and the stats hockey doc has posted are very helpful for pre med students to make informed decisions

 

[CaribKid]

i think my point is that you underestimate the importance of student support at US schools. there are some people who are accepted to US schools who make it through, with no blemishes on their records, who likely would have failed out of a Caribbean school. the reason they make it is because of the better student support at US schools. here people can remediate failed courses (ok, that will probably end up on a transcript), get tutoring, exam accommodations, you name it. schools bend over backwards to ensure that everyone graduates, even if it takes six years. the people who struggle are coached through. Down south, it's all on you: if you struggle, you can very easily be out (and with a pile of federal loan debt that's impossible to discharge.)

I can appreciate that the folks who couldn't cut it in basic science have already gone by the time of the comprehensive. I didn't mean to suggest that the comp basic sci exam is "out to get you" at any school, but it is another hurdle at some Carib schools, one that some students do not get past. this is in stark contrast to US schools, in which students are given virtually every possible aid to succeed. it's one more way in which Carib students are handicapped in comparison to their US colleagues and people who are trying to decide between the two need to know that.

I see what you are saying a little better now, and I appreciate the clarification. The fault is mine for not understanding the first time. I completely agree with what you are saying, and I do agree that it is definitely something pre-meds should consider before making a choice. There are many significant challenges in attending a Carib med school, and you need to be tough enough to get through it. We do have tutoring, and of course exam accommodations for students who require them, but that is just about it. US MD (and I am sure DO) have a lot more available to them, which is awesome, and should not be overlooked when making a decision. You are right about the debt, haha, I hate seeing those damn statements from the Dept. of Education

 

[DrFraud]

When Dr. Fraud says that the AUC Match Rate is over 90%, this is incorrect. The 2011 match rate was 84%, and in 2010 it was at 90%. Not over 90%.

What is incorrect is your paraphrasing of the stats that I posted. What I wrote is that for AUC grads who finish without any red flags, meaning there were no major academic problems or major character issues, the likelihood of matching into an ACGME residency was greater than 90% for AUC grads.

I have worked very closely with the Deans at AUC who track of this info.

This compares with DO grads who currently match into ACGME residencies at a rate calcuated by HockeyDr to be 34%.

-DrFraud

 

[Sinfest]

What is incorrect is your paraphrasing of the stats that I posted. What I wrote is that for AUC grads who finish without any red flags, meaning there were no major academic problems or major character issues, the likelihood of matching into an ACGME residency was greater than 90% for AUC grads.

I have worked very closely with the Deans at AUC who track of this info.

This compares with DO grads who currently match into ACGME residencies at a rate calcuated by HockeyDr to be 34%.

-DrFraud

Stop spreading skewed information and just give it up

 

[TriagePreMed]

Stop spreading skewed information and just give it up

DrFraud not only is posting misinformation purposely, but now he seems to be blatantly attributing it to other people. I think that's good grounds to temp ban him from these forums.

 

[HockeyDr09]

What is incorrect is your paraphrasing of the stats that I posted. What I wrote is that for AUC grads who finish without any red flags, meaning there were no major academic problems or major character issues, the likelihood of matching into an ACGME residency was greater than 90% for AUC grads.

I have worked very closely with the Deans at AUC who track of this info.

This compares with DO grads who currently match into ACGME residencies at a rate calcuated by HockeyDr to be 34%.

-DrFraud

I already said that the 34% is inaccurate because of
a) this percentage includes over 2000 DO students who did not participate in the NRMP/ACGME match
b) DO's match at 70% for the NRMP match (ACGME residencies)
c) Dual accredited AOA residencies would increase that percentage as well.

The only reason I've ever responded to you was to make sure that other pre-meds / anyone interested knew that virtually all of the information you claim is incorrect (or needs some ridiculous extenuating circumstances to be accurate). I feel like I've done my job. Unless you come up with anything new, I'm done.

 

[gravitywave]

this thread will get pushed off the front page and into oblivion without the Fraudster to keep it alive. oh the irony

 

[HockeyDr09]

More than 14,000 Aspiring Physicians Apply to Osteopathic Medical School

At the close of the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine Application Service (AACOMAS) application cycle for 2011 admission, 14,275 applicants had submitted 109,020 individual applications for admission to 25 colleges of osteopathic medicine (COMs) and four branch campuses. Applicants to the University of North Texas Health Sciences Center at Fort Worth Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine applied through the Texas Medical and Dental Application Service. These totals represent a one-year increase of 6.64 percent in the number of applicants and 8.38 percent in the total number of individual applications. The mean number of applications submitted by each applicant was 7.6. These applicants are seeking one of approximately 5,400 2011 first-year seats in the nation's osteopathic medical colleges.

Over the past decade, the number of COMs across the country has grown from 19 to 26, and the number of osteopathic medical students has increased from fewer than 11,000 to more than 19,000. By 2015, COMs across the nation will graduate more than 5,300 osteopathic physicians annually, a number that is expected to continue to grow as more colleges open and existing colleges increase their class sizes. William Carey University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, welcomed its first class in fall 2010. This upcoming fall, the Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine's new campus in Spartanburg, South Carolina will open its doors, as will Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific's new site in Lebanon, Oregon. Campbell University in North Carolina, Marian University in Indiana, and the Southeast Alabama Medical Center have all hired deans for their proposed colleges of osteopathic medicine and have all announced plans to open in 2013.

Looks like the DO degree is gaining popularity.

14,275 Apply for
~5,400 seats.

38% of applicants matriculate*

*Doesn't include TCOM because they use a separate application.



If anyone is interested in more data, AACOM has a data page with some interesting info. I'll post some of it when I get a chance.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Here is some objective new data and information just published and presented at this month's (May 2011) AAMC conference about IMGs and residencies.

Feel free to download the article for yourselves.

Here is an important concluding paragraph:

"Conclusions
IMGs make up a very substantial
fraction of ERAS and NRMP
participants. Although they face
significant hurdles in achieving their
goal, the majority of those who persist
are ultimately successful. If enrollments
and graduations of U.S. MD- and
DO-granting medical schools continue
to rise [EDITOR'S NOTE: It's not a matter of if anymore, because new MD and DO schools and seats have already increased and continue to increase], IMGs' difficulty in finding
residencies is sure to increase."

...

"Because enrollment in U.S. MD-granting and DO-granting medical schools is increasing much more rapidly than the number of entry-level residency positions, competition for residency positions will intensify, especially for IMGs."

Source: http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...on_in_U_S__Graduate_Medical_Education.13.aspx

PDF version is attached, or may be accessed on the link above.

Other important information:
https://www.aamc.org/download/187412/data/2011_pwc_jolly.pdf

Botton Line: Going to medical school abroad will not help you (or your bank account, for that matter); instead, make the rational choice by becoming a U.S.-trained physician.

 

[patel2]

In 2010 the official applicant data from AAMC and AACOM

school type............... .................MD....... DO
Applicants ................................42269 ..12617
acceptees................................ 19332... 4698
matriculants .............................18390... 4601
1st time applicants ....................31063 ...
applicant to acceptee ratio ......... 2.19..... 2.69
applicant to matriculant ratio....... 2.30 .... 2.74

On an applicant to seat ratio, DO is more competitive than MD (not GPA/MCAT).

on an applicant to seat ratio, probably many PA/NP/CRNA programs are more competitive than MD

 

[Sinfest]

on an applicant to seat ratio, probably many PA/NP/CRNA programs are more competitive than MD

PA and CRNA...probably. "D"NP...no way. You can get that degree online

 

[drctother]

on an applicant to seat ratio, probably many PA/NP/CRNA programs are more competitive than MD

So what? The ratio of applicants to seats is absolutely huge in my area to become an EMT. Doesnt mean its "hard" to get into the program by our standards. For example the people who apply to become an EMT often didnt finish high school, or even if they managed to just graduate...they have no post-secondary education. There is no chance in hell the average "competitive" EMT applicant could get into med school.

Its all relative. The same thing goes for PA/NP/CRNA.

Think of it this way. They are 200 mice fighting over a piece of cheese, we are 50 mice trying to get access to the cow. I would much rather be the latter

And at the end of it, they are taking orders from us (not that I actually think this way, but if it helps the point than so be it)

 

[patel2]

So what? The ratio of applicants to seats is absolutely huge in my area to become an EMT. Doesnt mean its "hard" to get into the program by our standards. For example the people who apply to become an EMT often didnt finish high school, or even if they managed to just graduate...they have no post-secondary education. There is no chance in hell the average "competitive" EMT applicant could get into med school.

Its all relative. The same thing goes for PA/NP/CRNA.

Think of it this way. They are 200 mice fighting over a piece of cheese, we are 50 mice trying to get access to the cow. I would much rather be the latter

And at the end of it, they are taking orders from us (not that I actually think this way, but if it helps the point than so be it)

that was exactly my point...seats/applicants ratio means nothing when comparing DO to MD, in the same way in means nothing comparing NP/CRNA to MD/DO. You have to look at the average stats and overall admission standards to gauge the competitiveness

 

[drctother]

that was exactly my point...seats/applicants ratio means nothing when comparing DO to MD, in the same way in means nothing comparing NP/CRNA to MD/DO. You have to look at the average stats and overall admission standards to gauge the competitiveness

Oh my apologies, I was in a rush and read it too quickly and interpreted it wrong

 

[FiremedicMike]

So what? The ratio of applicants to seats is absolutely huge in my area to become an EMT. Doesnt mean its "hard" to get into the program by our standards. For example the people who apply to become an EMT often didnt finish high school, or even if they managed to just graduate...they have no post-secondary education. There is no chance in hell the average "competitive" EMT applicant could get into med school.

Its all relative. The same thing goes for PA/NP/CRNA.

Think of it this way. They are 200 mice fighting over a piece of cheese, we are 50 mice trying to get access to the cow. I would much rather be the latter

And at the end of it, they are taking orders from us (not that I actually think this way, but if it helps the point than so be it)

Holy **** dude, did EMT school deny your application or what? I bet you're going to be a peach to work with for anyone who isn't a doctor.

 

[drctother]

Holy **** dude, did EMT school deny your application or what? I bet you're going to be a peach to work with for anyone who isn't a doctor.

What? I think you misunderstood my post......but anyway,

I worked with many EMT's the past few seasons and they were nice people. Some of them are my friends. I dont think I am above EMTs if that is what you are implying with your remarks

 

[FiremedicMike]

What? I think you misunderstood my post......but anyway,

I worked with many EMT's the past few seasons and they were nice people. Some of them are my friends. I dont think I am above EMTs if that is what you are implying with your remarks

I'll chalk it up to poor wording, but it sure came across as if you felt EMS providers were a bunch of dim witted yokels. Most of us are actually quite intelligent

 

[Beandog]

I'll chalk it up to poor wording, but it sure came across as if you felt EMS providers were a bunch of dim witted yokels. Most of us are actually quite intelligent

I took a hard breath in when I read his post too. I'm an EMT and proud of it, but some of the people I work around can't do or go on beyond being an EMT - If I didn't have ambition to go on and do more, I'd be a little downwardly bias against the profession myself too, but then again I know a few docs who have a rock between their ears...you find dim witted yokels everywhere.

 

[TriagePreMed]

It's definitely not kosher in the United States to imply of anyone that they aren't as smart because of their profession, but that doesn't change reality. While it is true that in every industry there are both smart and dumb people, those in blue-collar/physical-labor activities may have a lower ratio of smart people in comparison to physicians or scientists. I think anyone in those professions should realize there is a difference between claiming that *you* in specific and one of the *general group* are vastly different.

 

[FiremedicMike]

Fair enough. I suppose if I'm being totally honest, I have noticed that I am a bit smarter than a lot of people around me. This is not to say I'm better than anyone, because many of these people have qualities about them I wished I had.

Sorry, I get butt-hurt sometimes, I'm fine.. Back to the original topic

 

[Honze55]

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I decided to do a litter experiment of my own. It's far less scientific than HockryDr's data, but take it for what it is.

I emailed 40 program directors for 40 different residency programs in CA (the state I want to do residency) and proposed a hypothetical situation:

I got into both RVU (DO granting program) and SGU (caribbean MD program)

I asked which program I should attend to be most competitive for their residency program.

31/40 Said I should I should attend RVU
2/40 Said that IMG MDs and DOs are looked at equally
7/40 never responded.
0/40 Suggested SGU

I think that speaks pretty loudly.

BTW, I'm matriculating to KCUMB c/o 2015. I was accepted to SGU (I applied as a back-up in case I didn't get into any US schools)

 

[drctother]

haha love it!

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I decided to do a litter experiment of my own. It's far less scientific than HockryDr's data, but take it for what it is.

I emailed 40 program directors for 40 different residency programs in CA (the state I want to do residency) and proposed a hypothetical situation:

I got into both RVU (DO granting program) and SGU (caribbean MD program)

I asked which program I should attend to be most competitive for their residency program.

31/40 Said I should I should attend RVU
2/40 Said that IMG MDs and DOs are looked at equally
7/40 never responded.
0/40 Suggested SGU

I think that speaks pretty loudly.

BTW, I'm matriculating to KCUMB c/o 2015. I was accepted to SGU (I applied as a back-up in case I didn't get into any US schools)

 

[patel2]

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I decided to do a litter experiment of my own. It's far less scientific than HockryDr's data, but take it for what it is.

I emailed 40 program directors for 40 different residency programs in CA (the state I want to do residency) and proposed a hypothetical situation:

I got into both RVU (DO granting program) and SGU (caribbean MD program)

I asked which program I should attend to be most competitive for their residency program.

31/40 Said I should I should attend RVU
2/40 Said that IMG MDs and DOs are looked at equally
7/40 never responded.
0/40 Suggested SGU

I think that speaks pretty loudly.

BTW, I'm matriculating to KCUMB c/o 2015. I was accepted to SGU (I applied as a back-up in case I didn't get into any US schools)

within a random array of specialties? Did they elaborate on their e-mail response or just respond "RVU" in a sentence? I'm always curious to hear insight of PDs, so feel free to post some of their responses if they were longer than just a line or so..

 

[Honze55]

within a random array of specialties? Did they elaborate on their e-mail response or just respond "RVU" in a sentence? I'm always curious to hear insight of PDs, so feel free to post some of their responses if they were longer than just a line or so..

Yes I did throw multiple specialties in there (ROADS). Mostly FM though, because that is what I personally am interested in. Most repsonses were pretty short and to the point. No one really elaborated on their responses. They all basically said SGU and Caribbean graduates have such a horrible stigma attached, that choosing to attend a Caribbean school over a US school would be a big mistake.

Here is an interesting response, though, from a TOP California university hospital program. Note, he is an MD, has DO prejudice, and STILL recommends going US DO over IMG MD.

"You pose a challenging question.The bottleneck in the US now is residency training slots that are somewhat limited. I am an MD and am biased in thinking that MDs have more credibility and more opportunities throughout their careers. On the other hand, getting an internship with a degree from St. Georges can be horribly challenging. Our program (residency) would be more likely to accept a US DO degree."

 

[ToldYouSo]

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I decided to do a litter experiment of my own. It's far less scientific than HockryDr's data, but take it for what it is.

I emailed 40 program directors for 40 different residency programs in CA (the state I want to do residency) and proposed a hypothetical situation:

I got into both RVU (DO granting program) and SGU (caribbean MD program)

I asked which program I should attend to be most competitive for their residency program.

31/40 Said I should I should attend RVU
2/40 Said that IMG MDs and DOs are looked at equally
7/40 never responded.
0/40 Suggested SGU

I think that speaks pretty loudly.

BTW, I'm matriculating to KCUMB c/o 2015. I was accepted to SGU (I applied as a back-up in case I didn't get into any US schools)

Wow, you got the answers straight from the horses' mouth

 

[calvinhobbes]

.

 

[walkerahl]

Wow, this topic has been incredibly informative.

bump

 

[Aphtalyfe]

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I decided to do a litter experiment of my own. It's far less scientific than HockryDr's data, but take it for what it is.

I emailed 40 program directors for 40 different residency programs in CA (the state I want to do residency) and proposed a hypothetical situation:

I got into both RVU (DO granting program) and SGU (caribbean MD program)

I asked which program I should attend to be most competitive for their residency program.

31/40 Said I should I should attend RVU
2/40 Said that IMG MDs and DOs are looked at equally
7/40 never responded.
0/40 Suggested SGU

I think that speaks pretty loudly.

BTW, I'm matriculating to KCUMB c/o 2015. I was accepted to SGU (I applied as a back-up in case I didn't get into any US schools)

Strong work!

 

[Sinfest]

Bump!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Bump!

Why?

 

[Sinfest]

Why?

This thread was on the last page of the pre-DO sub-forum. I think it has valuable information which shouldn't be deleted.

 

[MyCarIsDirty]

Why isn't this stickied? I've seen numerous threads that have links that refer me to this one.

 

[Sinfest]

Bumping again

 

[TriagePreMed]

This thread was on the last page of the pre-DO sub-forum. I think it has valuable information which shouldn't be deleted.

Does it get it deleted? I thought it's just archived and can still be revived later on.

 

[Sinfest]

Does it get it deleted? I thought it's just archived and can still be revived later on.

Does it? If so, whoops

 

[Richie Truxillo]

Fantastic Post with complied data. Good job HockeyDr! Wish we could give you a medal or at least a tag.

 

[DrMaximus]

You sure you want to be a doctor? Because you would be a master statistician!

 

[toxicwombat]

This thread definitely deserves a bump. Great work!