MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

[DrFraud]

This may be a really stupid question, but what happens after you get your training in AOA residency? Are you restricted from working in certain hospitals? I'm not sure what the differences are between the two types...

Neither do I but it is interesting that I have the folloing links...
1)....showing the perception among DO 4th year students that ACGME training is superior to AOA osteopathic residency training. - page 40
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/studentreport2004.pdf

2)....and another
http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/Publications/TheNewPhysician/2004/tnp103.aspx- OSTEOPATHIC RESIDENCIES STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE GROWING NUMBER OF D.O. GRADS.

Always remember that less than 35 % of DO graduates match into ACMGE residency spots, and this number continues to fall every year as more and more DOs graduate.

2/3 of DO graduates who enter ACGME residency programs go into either Family, IM, Peds, or Psych (so specializing via ACGME for DO the pathway in relation to other alternative pathways is only a myth for the vast majority of DO graduates who enter into ACGME residency programs.)

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[Sinfest]

Neither do I but it is interesting that I have the folloing links...
1)....showing the perception among DO 4th year students that ACGME training is superior to AOA osteopathic residency training. - page 40
http://www.aacom.org/resources/books...report2004.pdf

2)....and another
Growing Pains - OSTEOPATHIC RESIDENCIES STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE GROWING NUMBER OF D.O. GRADS.

Always remember that less than 35 % of DO graduates match into ACMGE residency spots, and this number continues to fall every year as more and more DOs graduate.

2/3 of DO graduates who enter ACGME residency programs go into either Family, IM, Peds, or Psych (so specializing via ACGME for DO the pathway in relation to other alternative pathways is only a myth.)

Come on DrFraud, seriously? Yes, it's true ~40% of DO's match into ACGME residencies...when you take into account every single DO graduate, including those that do not even apply to ACGME programs. The ACGME match rate for DO students that apply to ACGME programs is somewhere around 70-75%.

 

[Sinfest]

2/3 of DO graduates who enter ACGME residency programs go into either Family, IM, Peds, or Psych (so specializing via ACGME for DO the pathway in relation to other alternative pathways is only a myth for the vast majority of DO graduates who enter into ACGME residency programs.)

Nice job trying to slander DO grads DrFraud.

52.9% of DO grads that matched into an ACGME PGY-1 or PGY-2 position in 2011 matched FM, IM, Peds, or Psych. 1/2 is not 2/3.

 

[BairN]

Neither do I but it is interesting that I have the folloing links...
1)....showing the perception among DO 4th year students that ACGME training is superior to AOA osteopathic residency training. - page 40
http://www.aacom.org/resources/books...report2004.pdf

2)....and another
Growing Pains - OSTEOPATHIC RESIDENCIES STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE GROWING NUMBER OF D.O. GRADS.

Always remember that less than 35 % of DO graduates match into ACMGE residency spots, and this number continues to fall every year as more and more DOs graduate.

2/3 of DO graduates who enter ACGME residency programs go into either Family, IM, Peds, or Psych (so specializing via ACGME for DO the pathway in relation to other alternative pathways is only a myth for the vast majority of DO graduates who enter into ACGME residency programs.)

You are implying that 100% of DO's attempted go gain acceptance into ACMGE residency. You attempting to twist a # to fit your arguement. Bogus statement.

 

[p1acebo]

Always remember that less than 35 % of DO graduates match into ACMGE residency spots, and this number continues to fall every year as more and more DOs graduate.

2/3 of DO graduates who enter ACGME residency programs go into either Family, IM, Peds, or Psych (so specializing via ACGME for DO the pathway in relation to other alternative pathways is only a myth for the vast majority of DO graduates who enter into ACGME residency programs.)

Why lie?

 

[DocEspana]

Main problem is that the locations are limited, 1/3 of DO residencies are in Michigan.

yes: there are tons of michigan spots. Gotta agree there. almost too many spots.

no: cant possibly be 1/3. Numerically almost exactly 1/3 of the AOA residencies are in east PA, NJ and northeast of that (how the AOA approximates the north east region. NJ and north, and closer to Philly than Pitt in PA). And the AOA, though not using this exact word, feels that 1/3 is over-representing the area. So how can michigan have 1/3 of them and the northeast be 1/3 of them? I guess it could be possible, but i dont think thats the case. There is a lot of country that is still in "DO rich" country unaccounted for.

really though: I realize you're probably doing some slight exaggeration with the 1/3. I just have an uncontrollable urge to comment on stats. (and, oh, dr. fraud, you get no comment from me cause everyone else hit up what i was gonna say)

 

[jcpenny]

Besides for better locations and fellowship opportunities, I think the fact that the majority of the DO students tend to skip the AOA residency and aim for the ACGME residency has something to do with the wrongly perceived notion that the DO degree/school is inferior to the MD degree/school. I think it's safe to say that there is a significant portion of the DO students that were rejected/ did not make the cut for the MD schools. By getting into an allopathic residency program, a DO student now can say that "well, I went to a DO school, so what? I am now in an allopathic residency program, working /getting my training with the MD students and physicians" or "I am certified by the American Board of _____, just like any other MDs in my specialty, there is no difference between myself and the MDs" when someone inquire about their education/training. Ego is the devil. When one's mind has been set to attain a spot in any allopathic residency program since the first day of school, one is less inclined to explore what the AOA residencies have to offer (by setting up away rotations, doing research to learn more about certain programs etc.). I am not saying that all AOA programs are excellent but I am sure there are many decent programs out there that are on-par with the average/above average MD programs, and for the reason I mentioned above, these AOA programs are often overlooked and not considered by the DO students. In my opinion, the notion that ACGME residency > AOA residency is ridiculous, unfounded and partly propagated by some of the DO students themselves.


To illustrate my point, I am sure that everyone knows that getting into MD ortho as a DO is ridiculously hard and the person who could accomplish such feat must be a SUPERSTAR and in fact they are. But given the choice between Podunk community ortho MD program and Botsford DO ortho, I would go with the latter (Yes I am fully aware that ANY ortho spot in the US is extremely precious). Somehow the person who matched Podunk MD ortho is still viewed as more impressive that the one who matched Botsford ortho.

 

[Gavanshir]

Great job hockeydr. I unfortunately have to say that I find the comparison to be very misleading. No one with any sense would go to a Caribbean medical school other than the top 3. The ones that do go really have no hope for a future career in medicine and are really going on on an extended vacation with a hefty price tag.

Using statistics of ALL US Caribbean grads by far negatively skews the data. There are around 49 Caribbean medical schools and only two of them are approved for FAFSA loans, I would suggest comparing those two with these data.

A comparison of match rates of the top 3 or 4 Caribbean medical schools instead of ALL of them would be of much more benefit to the premed community.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Great job hockeydr. I unfortunately have to say that I find the comparison to be very misleading. No one with any sense would go to a Caribbean medical school other than the top 3. The ones that do go really have no hope for a future career in medicine and are really going on on an extended vacation with a hefty price tag.

Using statistics of ALL US Caribbean grads by far negatively skews the data. There are around 49 Caribbean medical schools and only two of them are approved for FAFSA loans, I would suggest comparing those two with these data.

A comparison of match rates of the top 3 or 4 Caribbean medical schools instead of ALL of them would be of much more benefit to the premed community.

I've already posted AUC's data in this thread and it shows that about 55% of Caribbean students who start, wind up matching, which coincides with the NRMP data in the first post. I believe when taking into account attrition rates that the top 4 have a similar percentage of students getting into residencies as well.

In my opinion it would be misleading to post AUC data and say 187 matched out of 200 applied (just made that up) because you're not taking into account how many students are on their second try, held back to 5th or 6th year, took time off to improve, or wound up failing / dropping out.

Despite this, I have no problem posting the top 4's match lists separately. When I have some time i'll see what I can find. Unfortunately their class sizes and total number of students who applied are difficult to come by. Which is why I thought the most accurate way of collecting their data was through the official NRMP data.

 

[CaribKid]

Great job hockeydr. I unfortunately have to say that I find the comparison to be very misleading. No one with any sense would go to a Caribbean medical school other than the top 3. The ones that do go really have no hope for a future career in medicine and are really going on on an extended vacation with a hefty price tag.

Using statistics of ALL US Caribbean grads by far negatively skews the data. There are around 49 Caribbean medical schools and only two of them are approved for FAFSA loans, I would suggest comparing those two with these data.

A comparison of match rates of the top 3 or 4 Caribbean medical schools instead of ALL of them would be of much more benefit to the premed community.

The bolded portion is not accurate. SGU, Ross, and AUC are all eligible for FAFSA loans, which makes three.

 

[TriagePreMed]

If Dr. Fraud doesn't realize that the US MD community is working strongly to close the door for the Caribbean path, he's massively blind.

 

[Longshanks]

If Dr. Fraud doesn't realize that the US MD community is working strongly to close the door for the Caribbean path, he's massively blind.

And all the New York schools currently lobbying the state legislature to ban IMG/FMG students from rotating, as students would need to have completed their pre-clinical years at an accreditated US school.

 

[CaribKid]

I think I would have to respectfully disagree with the above two posts. Certainly, there are programs out there which do not take Caribbean students into their residency programs. It is their choice to do so, even if I feel it is misguided. However, for those programs which do so, there are many, many programs who do not have a problem taking a US IMG. I don't believe the US MD establishment is trying to force out Carib students (or anyone else, like DOs, for that matter), since it would be detrimental to everyone. We have a shortage of physicians, period. How is a solution to that problem to "force" out qualified physicians? There is a prejudice, but it is not insurmountable.

As for New York, I doubt this will ever happen. While I can understand why a resolution may be passed, that's all it is: a resolution. The hospitals need the money that is being pumped onto their balance sheets through the Carib school students rotating there. If their choice is between taking a loss each year, or hanging in due to Carib money, what do you think the answer is going to be? I certainly feel for the students who have been kicked off rotations (if this is true), as that sucks and is unfair. I think a better solution can be found, as opposed to trying to kick Carib students out, which would allow US MD, DO and IMG to all rotate.

I think that Dr. Fraud has good points sometimes, but gets a little too passionate about the subject every now and then.

 

[patel2]

I think I would have to respectfully disagree with the above two posts. Certainly, there are programs out there which do not take Caribbean students into their residency programs. It is their choice to do so, even if I feel it is misguided. However, for those programs which do so, there are many, many programs who do not have a problem taking a US IMG. I don't believe the US MD establishment is trying to force out Carib students (or anyone else, like DOs, for that matter), since it would be detrimental to everyone. We have a shortage of physicians, period. How is a solution to that problem to "force" out qualified physicians? There is a prejudice, but it is not insurmountable.

As for New York, I doubt this will ever happen. While I can understand why a resolution may be passed, that's all it is: a resolution. The hospitals need the money that is being pumped onto their balance sheets through the Carib school students rotating there. If their choice is between taking a loss each year, or hanging in due to Carib money, what do you think the answer is going to be? I certainly feel for the students who have been kicked off rotations (if this is true), as that sucks and is unfair. I think a better solution can be found, as opposed to trying to kick Carib students out, which would allow US MD, DO and IMG to all rotate.

I think that Dr. Fraud has good points sometimes, but gets a little too passionate about the subject every now and then.

It's not so much about trying to force out, but supply and demand coming into play. There will eventually be (by 2020) about as many US medical grads as there are residency spots. Most PDs will discriminate against FMGs if they have to make tough choices. That's not to say it won't get competitive for American grads too; many primary care spots will start to be filled up with American grads, but it's likely of the three groups the offshore people will face the largest crunch.

 

[CaribKid]

It's not so much about trying to force out, but supply and demand coming into play. There will eventually be (by 2020) about as many US medical grads as there are residency spots. Most PDs will discriminate against FMGs if they have to make tough choices. That's not to say it won't get competitive for American grads too; many primary care spots will start to be filled up with American grads, but it's likely of the three groups the offshore people will face the largest crunch.

Again, not sure if I completely agree with the specific numbers, but I absolutely agree with the bolded part. It will be harder, and scoring 215 on the Step as a Carib grad ain't gonna cut it. However, here are some hard numbers (since the thread is titled as such):

NRMP 2011 Positons: 23,421 (1st year only)
US Seniors: 16,559 (an increase of 489 from 2010, or about 3%)

http://www.nrmp.org/pressrelease2011.pdf

In order to fill all those spots with US Seniors, they would need to increase enrollment (from 2011 numbers) by 6,862 or 41% by 2016. Considering this year only saw a 3% increase, I don't find that likely to happen. But, as I said, I do agree that enrollment (both MD and DO) is on the rise, and that most likely IMGs and FMGs will see more competition (as will everyone, just not to the same degree).

 

[TriagePreMed]

I think I would have to respectfully disagree with the above two posts. Certainly, there are programs out there which do not take Caribbean students into their residency programs. It is their choice to do so, even if I feel it is misguided. However, for those programs which do so, there are many, many programs who do not have a problem taking a US IMG. I don't believe the US MD establishment is trying to force out Carib students (or anyone else, like DOs, for that matter), since it would be detrimental to everyone. We have a shortage of physicians, period. How is a solution to that problem to "force" out qualified physicians? There is a prejudice, but it is not insurmountable.

As for New York, I doubt this will ever happen. While I can understand why a resolution may be passed, that's all it is: a resolution. The hospitals need the money that is being pumped onto their balance sheets through the Carib school students rotating there. If their choice is between taking a loss each year, or hanging in due to Carib money, what do you think the answer is going to be? I certainly feel for the students who have been kicked off rotations (if this is true), as that sucks and is unfair. I think a better solution can be found, as opposed to trying to kick Carib students out, which would allow US MD, DO and IMG to all rotate.

I think that Dr. Fraud has good points sometimes, but gets a little too passionate about the subject every now and then.

The good news is that I don't think they are trying to phase out the Caribbean students. They just want to phase out the Caribbean schools. By this I mean that there will be more MD and DO schools in mainland so that the Caribbean option is less and less appealing and only truly unworthy US applicants will apply.

 

[DrFraud]

Again, not sure if I completely agree with the specific numbers, but I absolutely agree with the bolded part. It will be harder, and scoring 215 on the Step as a Carib grad ain't gonna cut it. However, here are some hard numbers (since the thread is titled as such):

NRMP 2011 Positons: 23,421 (1st year only)
US Seniors: 16,559 (an increase of 489 from 2010, or about 3%)

http://www.nrmp.org/pressrelease2011.pdf

In order to fill all those spots with US Seniors, they would need to increase enrollment (from 2011 numbers) by 6,862 or 41% by 2016. Considering this year only saw a 3% increase, I don't find that likely to happen. But, as I said, I do agree that enrollment (both MD and DO) is on the rise, and that most likely IMGs and FMGs will see more competition (as will everyone, just not to the same degree).

Here is some sobering data for those in the DO camp who believe that their alternative pathway is superior for securing an ACGME residency:
( I have posted this already but I will repost because this keeps coming up)

At present, there are over 4000 thousand graduates from DO programs in the US, matching into about 1400 ACGME residency spots at a rate about 35%. A few years ago, there were fewer DO graduates getting about 1300 ACGME residency spots, with a match rate was in the mid 40s for DOs securing ACGME residency positions.

It is currently projected that there will be over 5000 DOs graduating per year by 2015, with the rate of growth for DO programs far far outpacing the number of ACGME residency placement spots. Given projections derived from looking at past ACGME residency numbers for DO graduates, there will be about 1500 ACGME DO spots in 2015, so 1500/5000 means there will be a less than 30% match rate for DO graduates into ACGME residencies in 2015.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

Approximately 2/3 of DO grads going into ACGME redidency programs go into either FM, Psych, IM, or Peds, which is consistant with most alternative pathways, so the notion that better specialty oportunities exist for DO students who match into ACGME residencies is not valid for the vast majority of the DO graduates who match into ACGME residencies.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yessh.. are you going to seriously keep this up? You really don't know when to quit. Your point is pretty weak.. if 95%< of DO's get into residencies ACGME or AOA it still looks better than IMG residency placements which by your equation ( Total matched/ Total started) = ~50%. Furthermore the IMG pathway is dying and within 10 years it will be an option for only a population similar to what Devry/Phoenix targets at.... oh wait, it already is.
But it's alright, I understand where you're coming from..but.. maybe if you'd spend some time reading Dr.Freud's works on defense mechanisms and the rationalizing bad choices as a psyche defense rather than insulting him, well you'd actually learn something and lose your ridiculous... but regardless.. if you did that you'd rob this thread of its laughing stock/monkey. Then where would so many of these people get their lulz?

 

[DrFraud]

Yessh.. are you going to seriously keep this up? You really don't know when to quit. Your point is pretty weak.. if 95%< of DO's get into residencies ACGME or AOA it still looks better than IMG residency placements which by your equation.

Just keeping it real for newbees out there. They should know, realistically, that at least 3/4 DO students starting out today will be going AOA instead of ACGME.

There is still a scarsity of really good AOA residencies, and as I have already posted links covering the perception among DO seniors that ACMGE residencies are superior to AOA.

Well over 90% of those who grad from my program without any serious red flags went into ACGME residencies.

All of the data flooding from the massive posts put out on this thread doesn't obfuscate these points.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Just keeping it real for newbees out there. They should know, realistically, that at least 3/4 DO students starting out today will be going AOA instead of ACGME.

There is still a scarsity of really good AOA residencies.

Well over 90% of those who grad from my program without any serious red flags went into ACGME residencies.

All of the data flooding from the massive posts put out on this thread doesn't obfuscate these points.

DO student -> Matches Derm or Ortho in AOA match with a decent comlex ( medium). Can go into MD match and easily land a medium IM program with a passing USMLE score.
FMG Student -> "With 260 on USMLE 1 applies to 80 gass programs, fails to get into any of them, stuck with mid leveled IM program." - IMG on Pre-allo.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Here is some sobering data for those in the DO camp who believe that their alternative pathway is superior for securing an ACGME residency:
( I have posted this already but I will repost because this keeps coming up)

At present, there are over 4000 thousand graduates from DO programs in the US, matching into about 1400 ACGME residency spots at a rate about 35%. A few years ago, there were fewer DO graduates getting about 1300 ACGME residency spots, with a match rate was in the mid 40s for DOs securing ACGME residency positions.

It is currently projected that there will be over 5000 DOs graduating per year by 2015, with the rate of growth for DO programs far far outpacing the number of ACGME residency placement spots. Given projections derived from looking at past ACGME residency numbers for DO graduates, there will be about 1500 ACGME DO spots in 2015, so 1500/5000 means there will be a less than 30% match rate for DO graduates into ACGME residencies in 2015.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

Approximately 2/3 of DO grads going into ACGME redidency programs go into either FM, Psych, IM, or Peds, which is consistant with most alternative pathways, so the notion that better specialty oportunities exist for DO students who match into ACGME residencies is not valid for the vast majority of the DO graduates who match into ACGME residencies.

For all of this talk about obfuscating data, you do a pretty good job yourself. Yes, only ~ 1400 (1444) DOs matched to PGY1 positions in 2010, but that is out of 2045 applicants, and entirely discounts the scramble. Many DOs have absolutely no desire to go ACGME, and many break down this oversimplified ACGME/AOA dichotomy and look at the merits of individual programs, AOA or ACGME, and rank accordingly. And as you know, those who match AOA are withdrawn. It is bad stats to add these people to your denominator.

 

[DocEspana]

Just keeping it real for newbees out there. They should know, realistically, that at least 3/4 DO students starting out today will be going AOA instead of ACGME.

There is still a scarsity of really good AOA residencies, and as I have already posted links covering the perception among DO seniors that ACMGE residencies are superior to AOA.

Well over 90% of those who grad from my program without any serious red flags went into ACGME residencies.

All of the data flooding from the massive posts put out on this thread doesn't obfuscate these points.

 

[drctother]

ahhhhhh!!!! The troll is back!

 

[Sinfest]

Here is some sobering data for those in the DO camp who believe that their alternative pathway is superior for securing an ACGME residency:
( I have posted this already but I will repost because this keeps coming up)

At present, there are over 4000 thousand graduates from DO programs in the US, matching into about 1400 ACGME residency spots at a rate about 35%. A few years ago, there were fewer DO graduates getting about 1300 ACGME residency spots, with a match rate was in the mid 40s for DOs securing ACGME residency positions.

It is currently projected that there will be over 5000 DOs graduating per year by 2015, with the rate of growth for DO programs far far outpacing the number of ACGME residency placement spots. Given projections derived from looking at past ACGME residency numbers for DO graduates, there will be about 1500 ACGME DO spots in 2015, so 1500/5000 means there will be a less than 30% match rate for DO graduates into ACGME residencies in 2015.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

Approximately 2/3 of DO grads going into ACGME redidency programs go into either FM, Psych, IM, or Peds, which is consistant with most alternative pathways, so the notion that better specialty oportunities exist for DO students who match into ACGME residencies is not valid for the vast majority of the DO graduates who match into ACGME residencies.

You must be ******ed, blind, or both DrFraud.

I responded to these insane statements earlier and proved them to be incorrect, yet you're rehashing them. Just give up.

Come on DrFraud, seriously? Yes, it's true ~40% of DO's match into ACGME residencies...when you take into account every single DO graduate, including those that do not even apply to ACGME programs. The ACGME match rate for DO students that apply to ACGME programs is somewhere around 70-75%.

Nice job trying to slander DO grads DrFraud.

52.9% of DO grads that matched into an ACGME PGY-1 or PGY-2 position in 2011 matched FM, IM, Peds, or Psych. 1/2 is not 2/3.

 

[patel2]

Just keeping it real for newbees out there. They should know, realistically, that at least 3/4 DO students starting out today will be going AOA instead of ACGME.

There is still a scarsity of really good AOA residencies, and as I have already posted links covering the perception among DO seniors that ACMGE residencies are superior to AOA.

Well over 90% of those who grad from my program without any serious red flags went into ACGME residencies.

All of the data flooding from the massive posts put out on this thread doesn't obfuscate these points.

sounds impressive. Well over 90% (of 50% of your starting class), made it into a ACGME residency. 45% of the time, an entering student at AUC will match into a US residency 100% of the time. Sign me up!

 

[CaribKid]

sounds impressive. Well over 90% (of 50% of your starting class), made it into a ACGME residency. 45% of the time, an entering student at AUC will match into a US residency 100% of the time. Sign me up!

Sigh. I spoke to some of these stats before, and how this may have been true in the past, but certainly isn't true now. While Fraud may get some people worked up, let's try to be civil and not bash on the Carib or AUC. HockeyDr, DocEspana, and I tossed around some of the AUC stats earlier, and the most recent stuff, including my own experience as a MS II here at AUC. I enjoyed our civil, informative discussion. Can we try to keep it that way?

 

[Sam212]

Here is some sobering data for those in the DO camp who believe that their alternative pathway is superior for securing an ACGME residency:
( I have posted this already but I will repost because this keeps coming up)

At present, there are over 4000 thousand graduates from DO programs in the US, matching into about 1400 ACGME residency spots at a rate about 35%. A few years ago, there were fewer DO graduates getting about 1300 ACGME residency spots, with a match rate was in the mid 40s for DOs securing ACGME residency positions.

It is currently projected that there will be over 5000 DOs graduating per year by 2015, with the rate of growth for DO programs far far outpacing the number of ACGME residency placement spots. Given projections derived from looking at past ACGME residency numbers for DO graduates, there will be about 1500 ACGME DO spots in 2015, so 1500/5000 means there will be a less than 30% match rate for DO graduates into ACGME residencies in 2015.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

Approximately 2/3 of DO grads going into ACGME redidency programs go into either FM, Psych, IM, or Peds, which is consistant with most alternative pathways, so the notion that better specialty oportunities exist for DO students who match into ACGME residencies is not valid for the vast majority of the DO graduates who match into ACGME residencies.

Yo Dr. Fraud, you trollin' hard brah. I understand the inclination to defend your school here, however, you leave out some major points that pre-meds considering both routes should consider.

1) Any DO who graduates in good standing from a DO school can get an IM or FM spot in the ACGME match, no doubt. You and other IMGs should thank your lucky stars that AOA match, one you think is inferior, exists, or you guys would be so SOL. If more DOs applied to the primary care spots like the IMGs, no doubt they will win them over IMGs. The DO who didn't match in the ACGME match were probably going for competitive fields.

2) As a DO, you will definitely get a residency spot somewhere in some field, can you say that about IMGs? I think not. Please look up unfilled osteopathic spots. There are plenty of open primary care spots after AOA match, and even ACGME match that DOs can and do get. It may not be their first choice specialty, but hey, they have a job for next year and will be a licensed physician some day. IMGs can only wish they had a deal like that.

3) Matching into specialties is much easier as a DO. I won't even get into surgical subspecialties or derm where DOs obviously have a huge advantage through the AOA match. But lets entertain EM, Rads, and Anesthesiology. If you are a dead average, even below average DO student, you will get a spot in EM or Anesthesia somewhere in the US of A. Rads require you to be somewhat of a stud, but is very much doable with a 235+ on step I and 2. Can you say that coming out of AUC? I think not.

4) Also, ACGME residency seems to be the gold standard, I agree, but AOA residency doesn't mean a death sentence. You may not get a job at top academic centers or ivory towers, but you will make just as much as other docs in your field who did ACGME residencies. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Please tell us what specialty you matched coming out of AUC, and what were your board scores like. And don't be telling us that you wanted to do FM or IM (if that is what you matched) to begin with even with your 230+ USMLE scores because we know that not true.

 

[drctother]

Yo Dr. Fraud, you trollin' hard brah. I understand the inclination to defend your school here, however, you leave out some major points that pre-meds considering both routes should consider.

1) Any DO who graduates in good standing from a DO school can get an IM or FM spot in the ACGME match, no doubt. You and other IMGs should thank your lucky stars that AOA match, one you think is inferior, exists, or you guys would be so SOL. If more DOs applied to the primary care spots like the IMGs, no doubt they will win them over IMGs. The DO who didn't match in the ACGME match were probably going for competitive fields.

2) As a DO, you will definitely get a residency spot somewhere in some field, can you say that about IMGs? I think not. Please look up unfilled osteopathic spots. There are plenty of open primary care spots after AOA match, and even ACGME match that DOs can and do get. It may not be their first choice specialty, but hey, they have a job for next year and will be a licensed physician some day. IMGs can only wish they had a deal like that.

3) Matching into specialties is much easier as a DO. I won't even get into surgical subspecialties or derm where DOs obviously have a huge advantage through the AOA match. But lets entertain EM, Rads, and Anesthesiology. If you are a dead average, even below average DO student, you will get a spot in EM or Anesthesia somewhere in the US of A. Rads require you to be somewhat of a stud, but is very much doable with a 235+ on step I and 2. Can you say that coming out of AUC? I think not.

4) Also, ACGME residency seems to be the gold standard, I agree, but AOA residency doesn't mean a death sentence. You may not get a job at top academic centers or ivory towers, but you will make just as much as other docs in your field who did ACGME residencies. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Please tell us what specialty you matched coming out of AUC, and what were your board scores like. And don't be telling us that you wanted to do FM or IM (if that is what you matched) to begin with even with your 230+ USMLE scores because we know that not true.

LOL dr Fraud just got bitch slapped again

D Fraud, can you please take notes from Caribkid, at least he/she is respectable/intelligent in this discussion. Your comments are continually stupid and false.

God I hate ****in trolls, they are like that annoying insecure girl at the party that will do whatever to get attention. You know the girl who takes her shirt off or hits on anything that walks? Everyone laughs along with her and talks to her, but not in a respectful way

 

[DocEspana]

I do want to point out one thing. We frequently say "dont say you wanted to match FM or IM with your x USMLE score".

Many people do. IM more frequently than FM. Just wanted to point that out. Preference does happen. An interesting fact? The group that has the highest rate of peds matching (what i consider to be the least desirable job because its low pay and not 'completley ideal' hours): US MDs.

Preference can come into play. That isn't to say there isnt a significant portion of people who'd love to do ROAD or other high paying, currently-easy-lifestyle specialties but ended up in primary care. There are tons. But there are also tons who wanted primary care regardless of score. Just pointing that out. The quality of the rotations is the only way to measure a IM, FM or Peds spot... and those become hugely subjective as its hard to assess quality of a residency unless you are already in it or know others in it. Even med students dont really have a great grasp on it til just before the match.

 

[gravitywave]

Just keeping it real for newbees out there. They should know, realistically, that at least 3/4 DO students starting out today will be going AOA instead of ACGME.

There is still a scarsity of really good AOA residencies, and as I have already posted links covering the perception among DO seniors that ACMGE residencies are superior to AOA.

Well over 90% of those who grad from my program without any serious red flags went into ACGME residencies.

All of the data flooding from the massive posts put out on this thread doesn't obfuscate these points.

what's bizarre about this logic is that it presumes that everyone wants/needs an ACGME residency. if that is one's goal, then i can almost (not quite) see the Fraud's argument when talking about DO vs Big4. thing is, for the vast majority of medical students, ACGME vs AOA training doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless you're a total status *****. you all get to be doctors. and I haven't even gone into the big gap between DO and Big4 when it comes to competitiveness for competitive residencies. i didn't have to because:

DO student -> Matches Derm or Ortho in AOA match with a decent comlex ( medium). Can go into MD match and easily land a medium IM program with a passing USMLE score.
FMG Student -> "With 260 on USMLE 1 applies to 80 gass programs, fails to get into any of them, stuck with mid leveled IM program." - IMG on Pre-allo.

p0wned

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

no need to argue with dr. fraud. he once tried to argue that DOs aren't physicians, but simply osteopaths...because DOs are doctors of osteopathic medicine. just another example of his clever "logic."

 

[TriagePreMed]

Dr. Fraud accuses DO's of going into primary care or psych as if medical school is everyone trying to go to Derm or Plastics and then you get a letter at the end saying "sorry, your scores are low, so we the medical deity have conferred upon you a residency in pediatrics." Guess what? DO schools actively recruit students that would want to go into primary care. These students that want to go into primary care are also those that aren't embarrassed or troubled because their letters are "DO" and not "MD."

 

[CaribKid]

http://aucmed.edu/pdf/residency-process/ResidencyReport.pdf

This was posted on ValueMD, sort of like a Caribbean SDN for those who may not be familiar. I figured I would post it here just to get some info out there, and show some data for some of the things I have referred to before in previous posts. Read through it, kick it around, etc. Since some of the DO students on here have been cool enough to post everything they have available, I thought I should do the same. If you have a question, I will try to answer it, and either verify what you think, or clarify a rumor you may have heard. Thanks!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Summery of the PDF....84% match ( Doesn't mention what this is out of? Starting class or simply applicants?) and then nearly ~90% go into PC. Then it doesn't really bother to tell us where the people matched.. and what positions are pre-matches ( Surgery is probably almost completely pre-matches).

 

[TriagePreMed]

Summery of the PDF....84% match ( Doesn't mention what this is out of? Starting class or simply applicants?) and then nearly ~90% go into PC. Then it doesn't really bother to tell us where the people matched.. and what positions are pre-matches ( Surgery is probably almost completely pre-matches).

Yeah, if that's the case, AUC is horrible and nobody should ever go there. My understanding is that over 300 people get accepted each year. This would mean about a 1/3 get to some residency.

 

[CaribKid]

Yeah, if that's the case, AUC is horrible and nobody should ever go there. My understanding is that over 300 people get accepted each year. This would mean about a 1/3 get to some residency.

TriagePreMed, not exactly what I was looking for. Your understanding is incorrect. I was presenting the data to be fair, not to see my school bashed. 300 people get accepted each year, currently. As for 2007, I am not sure, I would have to ask around. If you are suggesting that 1/3 of my class makes it to residency, that would be wrong. I am almost finished with Basic Sciences, and our class began with 95 students. Of that, I would estimate 5 left the school, and probably 20 students have failed a class. Keep in mind, if you fail a class, you repeat it, period. No second chances. Next, I would point out that in the past, AUC has accepted a much lower quality of student than we have here today, on average. I was told this by a prof who has been on the Adcom. So, I am not surprised that in the past many people failed.

However, I have given you current experience. Also, I would point out that if, by your count, 300 people are accepted, and approximately 200 make it to residency, that is 2/3 rather than 1/3. This is not the case currently, but I already spoke to that.

If you would like to discuss the data, and what I am currently seeing here, excellent. I would be more than happy to discuss it. If, rather, you would mention that 1/3 make it to residency (false) and that AUC is horrible (false), then I am not sure I understand why this conversation has degenerated. I am definitely open to discussing data and experience, but not bashing of another school.

 

[CaribKid]

Summery of the PDF....84% match ( Doesn't mention what this is out of? Starting class or simply applicants?) and then nearly ~90% go into PC. Then it doesn't really bother to tell us where the people matched.. and what positions are pre-matches ( Surgery is probably almost completely pre-matches).

HockeyDr posted a complete summary of the AUC match earlier in this thread, and it can also be found at AUC's website (it also posts matches from previous years) if you would like that info. I have never seen any school (US or Carib) post their starting numbers, but I posted early my experience with drop-out rates. If you would like some more specifics, let me know, and I will try to answer specific questions if you have them.

I am not sure I see the problem with primary care. After all, don't most DO schools encourage primary care? I was on an ambulance for 3+ years before med school, and I think being a hospitalist is a pretty sweet job (I met a ton who loved it). I have also met a ton of PC guys who own their own practice and absolutely love it. To answer your question, though, it's 62% primary care (I counted in those numbers FP, IM, Peds, and Internal/Pediatrics), or 108 out of 172. I am also using numbers I took off the site about a month ago (they may have been updated for this pdf, but still not 90%).

 

[Sinfest]

http://aucmed.edu/pdf/residency-process/ResidencyReport.pdf

This was posted on ValueMD, sort of like a Caribbean SDN for those who may not be familiar. I figured I would post it here just to get some info out there, and show some data for some of the things I have referred to before in previous posts. Read through it, kick it around, etc. Since some of the DO students on here have been cool enough to post everything they have available, I thought I should do the same. If you have a question, I will try to answer it, and either verify what you think, or clarify a rumor you may have heard. Thanks!

Very nice pdf. I wish more schools would supplement match lists with a few informative graphs

 

[TriagePreMed]

TriagePreMed, not exactly what I was looking for. Your understanding is incorrect. I was presenting the data to be fair, not to see my school bashed. 300 people get accepted each year, currently. As for 2007, I am not sure, I would have to ask around. If you are suggesting that 1/3 of my class makes it to residency, that would be wrong. I am almost finished with Basic Sciences, and our class began with 95 students. Of that, I would estimate 5 left the school, and probably 20 students have failed a class. Keep in mind, if you fail a class, you repeat it, period. No second chances. Next, I would point out that in the past, AUC has accepted a much lower quality of student than we have here today, on average. I was told this by a prof who has been on the Adcom. So, I am not surprised that in the past many people failed.

However, I have given you current experience. Also, I would point out that if, by your count, 300 people are accepted, and approximately 200 make it to residency, that is 2/3 rather than 1/3. This is not the case currently, but I already spoke to that.

If you would like to discuss the data, and what I am currently seeing here, excellent. I would be more than happy to discuss it. If, rather, you would mention that 1/3 make it to residency (false) and that AUC is horrible (false), then I am not sure I understand why this conversation has degenerated. I am definitely open to discussing data and experience, but not bashing of another school.

Well, I hope you're able to understand the difference between "your school" and "yourself." I do respect you as a fellow human being until prompted not to, but when I speak of a school, I speak of the invisible entity created by bureaucracy. You alone could be an exceptionally bright person who will have no problem securing residency. This may also be the case for other individuals, but in group analysis, this is different.

The numbers I used were a very loose estimate. Counting up the list it appears around 175 of 300 get to "some" residency, which is about 58%. I think this is still very bad for anyone considering going to these schools. Also, it appears as if 110 of the 175 (~70% of ~58%) go into primary care or psychiatry. That's nowhere near good numbers. You could even add the layer of 45% getting into their 4th choice or worse in residency to make the numbers and school look more ugly.

You will most likely make a good or great physician, but I hope you're able to be one without having to feel your school must also reflect this greatness.

 

[Iswhatis]

All of your mothers are embarrassed.

 

[CaribKid]

All of your mothers are embarrassed.

Oh, dear. I will be sure to call her right away. Hope this doesn't ruin Mothers' Day........

 

[DocEspana]

wanna clarify a tiny bit.... 58% into primary care is actually pretty respectable numbers. NYCOM sent 52% recently and NYU (yes that nyu) sent 49% to primary care last year. You can look them up. NYCOM's 2007 numbers and NYU's 2010 numbers (NYCOM is very protective of their figures, so thats the earliest I could get a certified copy of)

with that said: its enrollment vs "gets a residency" spots that matters. I'm not going to bother critiquing anyone, the facts are out there and I appreciate that CaribKid is trying to make sure we stick to them, as HockeyDoctor also did. Please everyone, if you're point is so valid (and I do think it is) use numbers and try to be exact. They'll back you up more than enough to not need hyperbole or guesses. Trends are... well... trends. Its good to know them and its good to know if you'll rise above them or be a part of them. Thats the risk of carib schools, the trends are not favorable. But not all of them are Ross (read: VERY stilted against you). And in any case, those who make it to the end goal (residency) make fine doctors.

Just trying to bring some of these comments back to earth a bit. There was a great discussion happening here and somewhere in the last few days it got a little trained by rhetoric over fact.

 

[VeeTeeHokies]

First, you brought us the Underdog Thread. Now, you come to us with this incredible spreadsheet. I'm putting your name in the hat for AOA President in 4 years.

 

[TriagePreMed]

wanna clarify a tiny bit.... 58% into primary care is actually pretty respectable numbers. NYCOM sent 52% recently and NYU (yes that nyu) sent 49% to primary care last year. You can look them up. NYCOM's 2007 numbers and NYU's 2010 numbers (NYCOM is very protective of their figures, so thats the earliest I could get a certified copy of)

with that said: its enrollment vs "gets a residency" spots that matters. I'm not going to bother critiquing anyone, the facts are out there and I appreciate that CaribKid is trying to make sure we stick to them, as HockeyDoctor also did. Please everyone, if you're point is so valid (and I do think it is) use numbers and try to be exact. They'll back you up more than enough to not need hyperbole or guesses. Trends are... well... trends. Its good to know them and its good to know if you'll rise above them or be a part of them. Thats the risk of carib schools, the trends are not favorable. But not all of them are Ross (read: VERY stilted against you). And in any case, those who make it to the end goal (residency) make fine doctors.

Just trying to bring some of these comments back to earth a bit. There was a great discussion happening here and somewhere in the last few days it got a little trained by rhetoric over fact.

70% of 58% that make it into residency.

 

[zoner]

I am just want to make sure that I am interpreting this correct.

The data shows that it really doesn't matter whether you go to DO or MD school?

If so, are all the DO school in the states pretty much all good like MD schools are? I mean, MD schools are pretty much all great in the states from what I hear, but is that the case for DO school as well? or is there DO school that are considered as bad?

Thanks

I don't know anything about DO school....

 

[DocEspana]

70% of 58% that make it into residency.

Yes.

Though I was trying to diffuse a bit of the negatives by presenting a nice analysis; if 58% is an accurate number, your comment would be totally right.

Geez. I used to be the biggest anti-carib person on these boards. When did I get so soft?

 

[DrFraud]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any discussions about merging AOA and ACGME matches so that graduates from Caribbean programs can apply to the 'better' AOA residenies the way that DO students can freely apply to ACGME programs.

It makes sence to allow non-DO grads to apply, since the general trend is merging both degree pathways, and since many people on this message board often say that the DO and MD pathway training is almost identical.

If the AOA ends up allowing MD grads to apply for AOA specialties, would this impact the numbers posted here significantly in your opinion?

 

[DocEspana]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any discussions about merging AOA and ACGME matches so that graduates from Caribbean programs can apply to the 'better' AOA residenies the way that DO students can freely apply to ACGME programs.

It makes sence to allow non-DO grads to apply, since the general trend is merging both degree pathways, and since many people on this message board often say that the DO and MD pathway training is almost identical.

If the AOA ends up allowing MD grads to apply for AOA specialties, would this impact the numbers posted here significantly in your opinion?

It shouldn't change anything since all the MD graduate combine to still not fill up all the ACGME spots (even if you add in DOs there are still a portion of spots just under 2x the DO population left for re-spec-ing phyiscians and incoming foreign doctors). But that sort of thing is speculation, but I imagine the huge number of ACGME spots would mean the AOA opening up wouldn't change the matches significantly (maybe in minor ways, idk).

And I'm all for them merging. What I would suggest is that the AOA match carry with it the requirement of xhundred hours of OMT training. While its probably not something most people in allopathic schools would want to do, it is reflective of the fact that AOA boarding requires continued familiarity with OMT techniques, so its pretty much necessary. I imagine you could hit the hours easily enough with a month long high-intensity course over a summer (depending on the hours-per-day). I'd be interested in seeing them merged anyway. It would give fuller credibility to the AOA even among detractors and would just plain be a smart idea. It would need the training though due to the board testing requirements.

 

[patel2]

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any discussions about merging AOA and ACGME matches so that graduates from Caribbean programs can apply to the 'better' AOA residenies the way that DO students can freely apply to ACGME programs.

It makes sence to allow non-DO grads to apply, since the general trend is merging both degree pathways, and since many people on this message board often say that the DO and MD pathway training is almost identical.

If the AOA ends up allowing MD grads to apply for AOA specialties, would this impact the numbers posted here significantly in your opinion?

I think even if you allowed it, it would be very rare to see. It would only be relevant to MD students in the few hundred spots of really competitive speialties like ortho, derm, rads, and even then I doubt too many MD kids would want to take the comlex and do 300 additional hours of OMT, just to have a barely greater chance of matching into their desired field. Seems like too much work, even for your typical gunner. Also, fields like derm require an intern year before you can even apply in the DO world, making it even more unlikely an MD grad would take the risk of applying AOA.

Plus, it's likely the AOA would very much discrminate against MDs in the ultra-competitive fields, in the same ways that MD ortho and MD derm discriminate against DO

 

[p1acebo]

It shouldn't change anything since all the MD graduate combine to still not fill up all the ACGME spots (even if you add in DOs there are still a portion of spots just under 2x the DO population left for re-spec-ing phyiscians and incoming foreign doctors). But that sort of thing is speculation, but I imagine the huge number of ACGME spots would mean the AOA opening up wouldn't change the matches significantly (maybe in minor ways, idk).

And I'm all for them merging. What I would suggest is that the AOA match carry with it the requirement of xhundred hours of OMT training. While its probably not something most people in allopathic schools would want to do, it is reflective of the fact that AOA boarding requires continued familiarity with OMT techniques, so its pretty much necessary. I imagine you could hit the hours easily enough with a month long high-intensity course over a summer (depending on the hours-per-day). I'd be interested in seeing them merged anyway. It would give fuller credibility to the AOA even among detractors and would just plain be a smart idea. It would need the training though due to the board testing requirements.

I like your idea, especially since some allopathic programs do have electives for OMM of some sort. I don't see why not merge, give everyone opportunities to whatever residencies and let the hospitals decide who they like.