MD financial career

[debtisfun]

So here I am, in my 3rd year of med school, and I'm loving the clinical clerkships, really I am. But the thought of the further amount of training I need to go through in order to make a salary where I can pay off my 400K in loans (after interest), is making me shudder. I really NEVER was a person who used to think about money, but it weighs heavily on my mind lately.

The other day I was visiting a friend who is going to get his CFA certification. Here is a kid who only has a 4 year college degree, is the same age as me (24) and has said that once he gets the CFA, he will be guarunteed 6 figures!!!! I looked this up, and apparently, he isn't lying. CFA's make a real good salary, and it only gets better the longer you are in the field. Now, I really find it messed up that we as med students must PAY OUR OWN MONEY, and put in an additional 4 years of school plus 3 years minimum residency to make the SAME money as he will be making by passing a damn CFA exam. And he can increase his salary with experience, while doctors plateau quickly.

My question is: Is there a market for MD's in the financial field? Like MD stock analysts for big brokerages? Or MD financial advisors for big pharma or biotech companies? If so, what would be the best path to acheive this? I'm more than halfway through school, so I'm not going to just up and leave. But I also don't want my degree to not count for anything, and have to enter into the financial field like any shmuck out of college. Any advice? Opinions?

Thanks.

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[Law2Doc]

So here I am, in my 3rd year of med school, and I'm loving the clinical clerkships, really I am. But the thought of the further amount of training I need to go through in order to make a salary where I can pay off my 400K in loans (after interest), is making me shudder. I really NEVER was a person who used to think about money, but it weighs heavily on my mind lately.

The other day I was visiting a friend who is going to get his CFA certification. Here is a kid who only has a 4 year college degree, is the same age as me (24) and has said that once he gets the CFA, he will be guarunteed 6 figures!!!! I looked this up, and apparently, he isn't lying. CFA's make a real good salary, and it only gets better the longer you are in the field. Now, I really find it messed up that we as med students must PAY OUR OWN MONEY, and put in an additional 4 years of school plus 3 years minimum residency to make the SAME money as he will be making by passing a damn CFA exam. And he can increase his salary with experience, while doctors plateau quickly.

My question is: Is there a market for MD's in the financial field? Like MD stock analysts for big brokerages? Or MD financial advisors for big pharma or biotech companies? If so, what would be the best path to acheive this? I'm more than halfway through school, so I'm not going to just up and leave. But I also don't want my degree to not count for anything, and have to enter into the financial field like any shmuck out of college. Any advice? Opinions?

Thanks.

There are many business positions for MDs.
However I think there are a couple of points you should realize with respect to your above post. First, there is no "guaranteed" salary for CFAs. There are many, many unemployed ones (thus probably bringing the average salary down significantly), their income depends heavilly on rainmaking/marketing, and quite frankly, that segment of the financial services industry gets hit hardest in recessions and financial downturns. CFAs are hardly at the upper echelon of financial services earners, and most will cap out at lower than top doctors' salaries.
However, medicine was not a particularly smart career choice if earning big money was a primary goal, and if such was your goal, you may want to rethink your path ASAP. Physician salaries are quite comfortable compared to many other careers, but given the time lost in school and training, and the high debt involved, if you really wanted to create the maximum financial nest egg, you probably made a poor career choice. The concept of "time value of money" works heavilly against MDs, and so the person who steps into a strong 5 digit salary right out of college, with safe investments, raises and no additional educational debt, actually tends to do better than the physician who gets a 6 digit salary ten years from college. Thankfully medicine is a more viable pursuit for those of us driven by significant nonfinancial factors (such as career satisfaction).

 

[ASDIC]

many healthcare systems want MDs who have some financial knowledge...there are many CFO positions that require the knowledge of medicine and finance...for example shud the hospital invest in this particular healthcare plan? shud the hospital create its own in-house insurance plan or contract it to the outside? shud the hospital get rid of its contract radiology grp and build an in-house one? shud his hospital buy or merge with another hospital?

lastly,

many hospitals lose money due to the lack of financial control over its financial assets...many CFOs with no med knowledge are unsure if investing in a particular medical technology is worth

 

[MDMBACFA]

So here I am, in my 3rd year of med school, and I'm loving the clinical clerkships, really I am. But the thought of the further amount of training I need to go through in order to make a salary where I can pay off my 400K in loans (after interest), is making me shudder. I really NEVER was a person who used to think about money, but it weighs heavily on my mind lately.

The other day I was visiting a friend who is going to get his CFA certification. Here is a kid who only has a 4 year college degree, is the same age as me (24) and has said that once he gets the CFA, he will be guarunteed 6 figures!!!! I looked this up, and apparently, he isn't lying. CFA's make a real good salary, and it only gets better the longer you are in the field. Now, I really find it messed up that we as med students must PAY OUR OWN MONEY, and put in an additional 4 years of school plus 3 years minimum residency to make the SAME money as he will be making by passing a damn CFA exam. And he can increase his salary with experience, while doctors plateau quickly.

My question is: Is there a market for MD's in the financial field? Like MD stock analysts for big brokerages? Or MD financial advisors for big pharma or biotech companies? If so, what would be the best path to acheive this? I'm more than halfway through school, so I'm not going to just up and leave. But I also don't want my degree to not count for anything, and have to enter into the financial field like any shmuck out of college. Any advice? Opinions?

Thanks.

Hello:
As someone who is an MD (I completed my surgical residency and fellowship) as well as a CFA charterholder, I can shed some light on this matter. With regards to the renumeration, the potential to do well in the financial services sector is much much greater than in medicine. The average yearly income for an analyst at the firm that I am an equity partner with is over a million dollars. With regards to security of my job, the misconception stated by another individual simply isn't true; the likelyhood of losing my job due to the poor economy is slim to none. I was much more worried about getting sued as a doctor than losing my job as an investor. Hedge funds that have the capacity to go long/short can make as much money (if not more) in "poor" economic conditions as they can in a bull market. Even "long only" investors can load up on "undervalued" securities and bolster their long term earnings.
Having said this, getting a position as a trader or investor at this level is difficult. I know most of the MDs at all the major I-banks (Goldnan Sachs, BofA, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Sanford Bernstein, etc., etc,) and each of these firms employs one or two MDs to bolster their healthcare coverage. Even if you do land a job with an I-bank, you are still confined to the "sell side" which means you are merely generating research rather than managing portfolios or funds. You can do fairly well in this capacity (150-450K/yr) but to make the real big bucks you have to penetrate the buy side. For every 10 MDs on the sell side, there is only 1 MD on the buy side. To make it in the buy side, you need to prove yourself. Often times successful sell-siders get buy-side gigs. The CFA program is highly worthwhile doing, but it takes a minimum of four years to complete, and was no less rigorous than the USMLEs. An MBA is nice on the resume, but the CFA is a much more substantive program, and really teaches you the tools of investing and finance.
The best think about being an MD in the investment world, is your degree is seen as a real novelty. I do mostly HC related investing, so I think about medicine and scientific innovation on a daily basis. I talk to the world's leading physicians and CEO of fortune 500 companies on a daily basis. I never would be flying around the world first-class, staying at 5-star hotels, and eating $200 meals if I stayed in medicine. Having said this, you really have to do what you love. I simply didn't love medicine as much as I love finance and investing. When you love what you do, you will do well. One last thought--for those of you who feel stuck in medicine, and want to leave, know that there is a world of possibility out there. I was miserable for years and years because I didn't have a mentor to tell me that it was okay to leave medicine, and that I wouldn't starve. Leaving medicine was a painful and lonely experience, and having a wife and an kid to support didn't make it easier. However, when I entered wall street, I was so hungry, and so motivated, and so passionate, that nothing could stop me. That hunger still drives me, and I'm only in my low 30s.
Hope this helps.

 

[mau2]

To MDMBACFA,

Thank you very much for your input! I am also a third year medical student at an osteopathic school of medicine. I had gone into medical school with a bioengineering undergraduate degree. With each year of med school that passes, I have found that I do not have the passion. I have always been interested in business--I would take out books from the library on investing and finance. I would be interested in still working with the biotech industry, pharmaceuticals, etc. I have been trying to find others that have made the switch from medical school into business. I have tried to check alumni, that have made the transition, but few exist. I have no problem pursuing another four year degree. I was just wondering how you made the transition? Did you take the GMATS or the GREs to go to business school. Which school did you attend?

Thanks again!

Hello:
As someone who is an MD (I completed my surgical residency and fellowship) as well as a CFA charterholder, I can shed some light on this matter. With regards to the renumeration, the potential to do well in the financial services sector is much much greater than in medicine. The average yearly income for an analyst at the firm that I am an equity partner with is over a million dollars. With regards to security of my job, the misconception stated by another individual simply isn't true; the likelyhood of losing my job due to the poor economy is slim to none. I was much more worried about getting sued as a doctor than losing my job as an investor. Hedge funds that have the capacity to go long/short can make as much money (if not more) in "poor" economic conditions as they can in a bull market. Even "long only" investors can load up on "undervalued" securities and bolster their long term earnings.
Having said this, getting a position as a trader or investor at this level is difficult. I know most of the MDs at all the major I-banks (Goldnan Sachs, BofA, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Sanford Bernstein, etc., etc,) and each of these firms employs one or two MDs to bolster their healthcare coverage. Even if you do land a job with an I-bank, you are still confined to the "sell side" which means you are merely generating research rather than managing portfolios or funds. You can do fairly well in this capacity (150-450K/yr) but to make the real big bucks you have to penetrate the buy side. For every 10 MDs on the sell side, there is only 1 MD on the buy side. To make it in the buy side, you need to prove yourself. Often times successful sell-siders get buy-side gigs. The CFA program is highly worthwhile doing, but it takes a minimum of four years to complete, and was no less rigorous than the USMLEs. An MBA is nice on the resume, but the CFA is a much more substantive program, and really teaches you the tools of investing and finance.
The best think about being an MD in the investment world, is your degree is seen as a real novelty. I do mostly HC related investing, so I think about medicine and scientific innovation on a daily basis. I talk to the world's leading physicians and CEO of fortune 500 companies on a daily basis. I never would be flying around the world first-class, staying at 5-star hotels, and eating $200 meals if I stayed in medicine. Having said this, you really have to do what you love. I simply didn't love medicine as much as I love finance and investing. When you love what you do, you will do well. One last thought--for those of you who feel stuck in medicine, and want to leave, know that there is a world of possibility out there. I was miserable for years and years because I didn't have a mentor to tell me that it was okay to leave medicine, and that I wouldn't starve. Leaving medicine was a painful and lonely experience, and having a wife and an kid to support didn't make it easier. However, when I entered wall street, I was so hungry, and so motivated, and so passionate, that nothing could stop me. That hunger still drives me, and I'm only in my low 30s.
Hope this helps.

 

[pballa24]

Hello:
As someone who is an MD (I completed my surgical residency and fellowship) as well as a CFA charterholder, I can shed some light on this matter. With regards to the renumeration, the potential to do well in the financial services sector is much much greater than in medicine. The average yearly income for an analyst at the firm that I am an equity partner with is over a million dollars. With regards to security of my job, the misconception stated by another individual simply isn't true; the likelyhood of losing my job due to the poor economy is slim to none. I was much more worried about getting sued as a doctor than losing my job as an investor. Hedge funds that have the capacity to go long/short can make as much money (if not more) in "poor" economic conditions as they can in a bull market. Even "long only" investors can load up on "undervalued" securities and bolster their long term earnings.
Having said this, getting a position as a trader or investor at this level is difficult. I know most of the MDs at all the major I-banks (Goldnan Sachs, BofA, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Sanford Bernstein, etc., etc,) and each of these firms employs one or two MDs to bolster their healthcare coverage. Even if you do land a job with an I-bank, you are still confined to the "sell side" which means you are merely generating research rather than managing portfolios or funds. You can do fairly well in this capacity (150-450K/yr) but to make the real big bucks you have to penetrate the buy side. For every 10 MDs on the sell side, there is only 1 MD on the buy side. To make it in the buy side, you need to prove yourself. Often times successful sell-siders get buy-side gigs. The CFA program is highly worthwhile doing, but it takes a minimum of four years to complete, and was no less rigorous than the USMLEs. An MBA is nice on the resume, but the CFA is a much more substantive program, and really teaches you the tools of investing and finance.
The best think about being an MD in the investment world, is your degree is seen as a real novelty. I do mostly HC related investing, so I think about medicine and scientific innovation on a daily basis. I talk to the world's leading physicians and CEO of fortune 500 companies on a daily basis. I never would be flying around the world first-class, staying at 5-star hotels, and eating $200 meals if I stayed in medicine. Having said this, you really have to do what you love. I simply didn't love medicine as much as I love finance and investing. When you love what you do, you will do well. One last thought--for those of you who feel stuck in medicine, and want to leave, know that there is a world of possibility out there. I was miserable for years and years because I didn't have a mentor to tell me that it was okay to leave medicine, and that I wouldn't starve. Leaving medicine was a painful and lonely experience, and having a wife and an kid to support didn't make it easier. However, when I entered wall street, I was so hungry, and so motivated, and so passionate, that nothing could stop me. That hunger still drives me, and I'm only in my low 30s.
Hope this helps.

wow. great post. thanks for the insight.

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Nice post. I took the reverse path of you. I was an equity research analyst covering pharma stocks for 8 years before going to medical school. And I am a CFA charterholder since 1998. I'm a 3rd year now and liking the clerkships a lot. It was the right decision for me.

I would agree with much of what you described, but would paint a slightly less rosy picture of the investment world. Generally speaking I think there is less risk than people realize in business. But there are exceptions and the buy side is one of them in my opinion. Working for an investment firm is stimulating and fun, but there is pressure to perform everyday. Now you might not care or maybe your able to deal with that type of pressure better than others, but there is pressure and most of my friends/clients were stressed out about it. Your job is tied to outperforming a benchmark and there's a lot of chance/luck tied into performance. Sure there's skill involved, but you can work extremely hard and still lose because of general market trends or bad luck.

I have friends at hedge funds that cannot have 2 down quarters in a row or they will be fired. Yes, you can go long and short, but you have to be right or it doesn't matter. Regardless, it sounds like you have great job security, which is nice. I had that too, although I was on the sell side. However, that's not true of the vast majority of people that I know. I have more friends than I can count who have been fired despite working hard. Some still do not have jobs.

Sell side compensation is higher than $150-450K for senior analysts. Those figures sound more like junior analyst compensation (i.e., your #2-3 on the team). Most established analysts that I knew were making $1MM on average. Plus, there's more job security on the sell side vs. buy side where you don't have the daily performance figures hanging over your head. I could have stayed with it as long as my firm operated. Though you don't tend to see many 65 year old analysts because they either burn out or are on a beach somewhere dreaming about how they will possibly spend all that money.

Overall good post, but I wanted to add my perspective.

As someone who is an MD (I completed my surgical residency and fellowship) as well as a CFA charterholder, I can shed some light on this matter. With regards to the renumeration, the potential to do well in the financial services sector is much much greater than in medicine. The average yearly income for an analyst at the firm that I am an equity partner with is over a million dollars. With regards to security of my job, the misconception stated by another individual simply isn't true; the likelyhood of losing my job due to the poor economy is slim to none. I was much more worried about getting sued as a doctor than losing my job as an investor. Hedge funds that have the capacity to go long/short can make as much money (if not more) in "poor" economic conditions as they can in a bull market. Even "long only" investors can load up on "undervalued" securities and bolster their long term earnings.
Having said this, getting a position as a trader or investor at this level is difficult. I know most of the MDs at all the major I-banks (Goldnan Sachs, BofA, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Sanford Bernstein, etc., etc,) and each of these firms employs one or two MDs to bolster their healthcare coverage. Even if you do land a job with an I-bank, you are still confined to the "sell side" which means you are merely generating research rather than managing portfolios or funds. You can do fairly well in this capacity (150-450K/yr) but to make the real big bucks you have to penetrate the buy side. For every 10 MDs on the sell side, there is only 1 MD on the buy side. To make it in the buy side, you need to prove yourself. Often times successful sell-siders get buy-side gigs. The CFA program is highly worthwhile doing, but it takes a minimum of four years to complete, and was no less rigorous than the USMLEs. An MBA is nice on the resume, but the CFA is a much more substantive program, and really teaches you the tools of investing and finance.
The best think about being an MD in the investment world, is your degree is seen as a real novelty. I do mostly HC related investing, so I think about medicine and scientific innovation on a daily basis. I talk to the world's leading physicians and CEO of fortune 500 companies on a daily basis. I never would be flying around the world first-class, staying at 5-star hotels, and eating $200 meals if I stayed in medicine. Having said this, you really have to do what you love. I simply didn't love medicine as much as I love finance and investing. When you love what you do, you will do well. One last thought--for those of you who feel stuck in medicine, and want to leave, know that there is a world of possibility out there. I was miserable for years and years because I didn't have a mentor to tell me that it was okay to leave medicine, and that I wouldn't starve. Leaving medicine was a painful and lonely experience, and having a wife and an kid to support didn't make it easier. However, when I entered wall street, I was so hungry, and so motivated, and so passionate, that nothing could stop me. That hunger still drives me, and I'm only in my low 30s.
Hope this helps.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I worked in Equity Research in San Francisco during the tech boom in the 90's, some of the top people I knew were making multiple seven figures. my ex girlfriend went to a VC firm then wound up at Google before it went public, I would wonder how much she is worth right now. I think comparing a career in medicine to one in finance is like comparing apples to oranges. If you are worried about money, go into a specialty and avoid primary care, I think you will still make a very good living. I did quite well for myself, and I am interested in medicine because I wanted a career change.

 

[Discontent]

MDMBACFA, great post.

As you did, I have completed residency and fellowship training in a high paying surgical subspecialty. However, I am unhappy with my day to day career at this point. I feel unchallenged and am also constantly worried about the potential of lawsuit ruining my life. I have education at the bachelor's and master's level that would be helpful in business. My question is, as someone who is in practice already, how do I go about breaking in to the I-banking world to be one of the 1-2 MD's at Goldman or Lehman, etc? Particularly given that I have no experience.

Hello:
As someone who is an MD (I completed my surgical residency and fellowship) as well as a CFA charterholder, I can shed some light on this matter. With regards to the renumeration, the potential to do well in the financial services sector is much much greater than in medicine. The average yearly income for an analyst at the firm that I am an equity partner with is over a million dollars. With regards to security of my job, the misconception stated by another individual simply isn't true; the likelyhood of losing my job due to the poor economy is slim to none. I was much more worried about getting sued as a doctor than losing my job as an investor. Hedge funds that have the capacity to go long/short can make as much money (if not more) in "poor" economic conditions as they can in a bull market. Even "long only" investors can load up on "undervalued" securities and bolster their long term earnings.
Having said this, getting a position as a trader or investor at this level is difficult. I know most of the MDs at all the major I-banks (Goldnan Sachs, BofA, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Sanford Bernstein, etc., etc,) and each of these firms employs one or two MDs to bolster their healthcare coverage. Even if you do land a job with an I-bank, you are still confined to the "sell side" which means you are merely generating research rather than managing portfolios or funds. You can do fairly well in this capacity (150-450K/yr) but to make the real big bucks you have to penetrate the buy side. For every 10 MDs on the sell side, there is only 1 MD on the buy side. To make it in the buy side, you need to prove yourself. Often times successful sell-siders get buy-side gigs. The CFA program is highly worthwhile doing, but it takes a minimum of four years to complete, and was no less rigorous than the USMLEs. An MBA is nice on the resume, but the CFA is a much more substantive program, and really teaches you the tools of investing and finance.
The best think about being an MD in the investment world, is your degree is seen as a real novelty. I do mostly HC related investing, so I think about medicine and scientific innovation on a daily basis. I talk to the world's leading physicians and CEO of fortune 500 companies on a daily basis. I never would be flying around the world first-class, staying at 5-star hotels, and eating $200 meals if I stayed in medicine. Having said this, you really have to do what you love. I simply didn't love medicine as much as I love finance and investing. When you love what you do, you will do well. One last thought--for those of you who feel stuck in medicine, and want to leave, know that there is a world of possibility out there. I was miserable for years and years because I didn't have a mentor to tell me that it was okay to leave medicine, and that I wouldn't starve. Leaving medicine was a painful and lonely experience, and having a wife and an kid to support didn't make it easier. However, when I entered wall street, I was so hungry, and so motivated, and so passionate, that nothing could stop me. That hunger still drives me, and I'm only in my low 30s.
Hope this helps.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Physicians tend to have more job security than most people in the securities industry, unless you are well connected, there is day to day pressure, and you can be fired at any time. If you want to know the truth, there are many ways to make money out there. If you are really worried about financial matters avoid primary care fields and go into a specialty.

There is a very nice side to being in finance, but it is difficult to stay in, and many people I know burn out.

 

[RaistlinMajere]

This is another problem that a lot of med students/physicians often overlook: it is very hard to get a job in ibanking at Goldman, Lehman or one of the other top tier ibanks. The best way is to make a connection with someone at one of these firms--or better yet, know somebody already. The investment world is a club and essentially you need to be given the keys to the clubhouse. Most everyone I knew on Wall Street knew somebody who got them an interview. Yes, you have to have the credentials and stats, but beyond that you need someone to give you a chance. With that in mind, I would look to make connections by networking anyway you can. Join the local securities analyst association and attend their meetings and conferences.

You mention having education at the master's level. Does that mean that you have an MBA already? If not, get one. Go at night if you have to or look into the executive MBA programs. You will make connections at school that could prove invaluable in your goal of changing careers. If you already have an MBA then that's great.

Also, I would not limit your choices to the big firms. You should look into smaller firms strong in health care research such as Cowen & Co and Leerink to name two off the top of my head. These firms are just as good as the larger ones, just more focused on health care.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

As you did, I have completed residency and fellowship training in a high paying surgical subspecialty. However, I am unhappy with my day to day career at this point. I feel unchallenged and am also constantly worried about the potential of lawsuit ruining my life. I have education at the bachelor's and master's level that would be helpful in business. My question is, as someone who is in practice already, how do I go about breaking in to the I-banking world to be one of the 1-2 MD's at Goldman or Lehman, etc? Particularly given that I have no experience.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Companies like Goldman and Merrill generally hire people from the best universities(Harvard, Stanford, Northwestern, etc.) from undergraduate, graduate, MBA and Law schools. These people are usually the best students at their programs as well.

 

[Spacific]

Nah go with the MBA if you want to get a chance into those big companies. If you can't goto a top 10/15... then don't bother.

Oh... right now wall st especially ibanking firms have mass layoffs at the moment due to the crash of the sub prime markets.

My boys used to work at those ibanking firms... now they want to start up their private equity firms.

Will post more later.

 

[Pavo]

So many people have covered so many great points on here.

The best way is to make a connection with someone at one of these firms--or better yet, know somebody already. The investment world is a club and essentially you need to be given the keys to the clubhouse. Most everyone I knew on Wall Street knew somebody who got them an interview.

This is very, very accurate. The world of investments is basically a high-powered frat. Like it or not, that is what it is. Women are tremendously underrepresented, but they do join the ranks of foot soldiers, management, and executives, but by far, this is a boys club.

I went on an interview to an undisclosed firm out of college, and my first interviewer was in an international finance course with me in undergrad. Thank God we got along and were chummy in undergrad as we remembered each other, caught up a little bit, etc. My resume was sent in blindly, but he pulled me in after realizing that he knew me AND he liked me. I interviewed well enough with the others that I met with, but this guy pulled the ropes; he was my ticket in, and I received a phone call with an offer less than an hour after my last day of interviewing.

Please bear in mind that I was NOT the smartest kid interviewing for one of these positions, I was NOT from the best undergrad, I did NOT have all A's but was above a 3.5, etc. The point is that I was good enough on paper, smart enough to handle it, etc., but what got me in was someone at the firm saying 'Hey - I know this guy, he will do.' Basically, this is it:

...have the credentials and stats, but beyond that you need someone to give you a chance

My firm receives hundreds of resumes. We routinely do NOT make offers to MANY people who are more than qualified, but if I know a good candidate, then they immediately go to the top of the pile. Most people break in because they know someone, plain and simple.

Once you're in though, it is not a cakewalk. You have lots of pressure and stress to perform, and if you don't, then goodbye. I know people who are asked every six months in a review: 'Why should we retain you?' You might work very hard and be very smart, but if the market dips, then good bye. There are many factors involved that determine success, but here is what worked for me:

1. Make a connection; this will land you a job.
2. Kiss tremendous butt.
3. Work harder then you have ever worked in your life. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to be my friend, and not everyone will like me. I deal with this by: be the first one in the office in the morning, work very hard while I am there, be nice & friendly to everyone, and be the last one to leave at night. I might not be everyone's friend, but everyone will respect me in my role.
4. Always network; nurture your relationships; always plan exit strategies. You never know when you might be moved, or when you might be released, or if/when you crash and burn. Also, if you do last, then you don't want to pigeon-hole yourself.
5. Lose your ego. I was a rockstar in my college days, but I am a nobody in the real world. I *thought* that I was really smart, and I quickly learned that I really am not. You will work with some of the absolute brightest, insanely driven and smartest people in the world. You don't want to make any enemies.

 

[Discontent]

Thanks for all the great replies to my query. I do not have an MBA but a master's in health care management. Do you think an executive MBA is still a necessity? And if so, must it be from one of the top 5 or will a top 10 school suffice. My current practice situation will make it difficult to commute to a Wharton or Kellogg, but I could do Duke or may be Emory. And I have no current connections whatsoever to Wall Street.

This is another problem that a lot of med students/physicians often overlook: it is very hard to get a job in ibanking at Goldman, Lehman or one of the other top tier ibanks. The best way is to make a connection with someone at one of these firms--or better yet, know somebody already. The investment world is a club and essentially you need to be given the keys to the clubhouse. Most everyone I knew on Wall Street knew somebody who got them an interview. Yes, you have to have the credentials and stats, but beyond that you need someone to give you a chance. With that in mind, I would look to make connections by networking anyway you can. Join the local securities analyst association and attend their meetings and conferences.

You mention having education at the master's level. Does that mean that you have an MBA already? If not, get one. Go at night if you have to or look into the executive MBA programs. You will make connections at school that could prove invaluable in your goal of changing careers. If you already have an MBA then that's great.

Also, I would not limit your choices to the big firms. You should look into smaller firms strong in health care research such as Cowen & Co and Leerink to name two off the top of my head. These firms are just as good as the larger ones, just more focused on health care.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

To have a chance of getting into Wall Street, you need to have connections or be a top Business school, considering how bad the market is, unless you went to a top program like Wharton, Stanford, Kellogg, Harvard, etc, you can forget about it unless you know someone in the business.

 

[Spacific]

LOL love these post.

Well as you all know.. anything can happen. Just look at the pursuit for happiness... JK

but yes to increase your chances... you need to get a mba from a top finance firm if you want a good shot at wall street. But why the heck would you?

I have many friends in Lehman.. GS. ML. They were all busy as heck and didn't like their job.... unless I guess if you end up as a junior or something like that.

All I really know about the starting salaries for most of these ibank firms are -

120K start with a yearly bonus if business is doing well of 120K too.

so total 240K in a good yr if your lucky. obvious this number is exponential if u make it up the ranks... but geez... your talking about small numbers that make it up there.

Maybe other actually know friends that made it up there. Most of the guys I know ended up leaving doing something else.

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Thanks for all the great replies to my query. I do not have an MBA but a master's in health care management. Do you think an executive MBA is still a necessity? And if so, must it be from one of the top 5 or will a top 10 school suffice. My current practice situation will make it difficult to commute to a Wharton or Kellogg, but I could do Duke or may be Emory. And I have no current connections whatsoever to Wall Street.

You're welcome. I like discussing stuff from my former career, so if you have any questions feel free to PM me anytime.

Congrats on getting your master's. I knew 1 person out of the hundreds of health care ibankers that I've met in my life who had a master's in health care management instead of an MBA, so it's possible, but highly unlikely. If you knew someone who could get you an interview then I would think differently, but you're best bet is an MBA. Given your constraints I'd look towards Duke, which likely has more firepower than Emory. There were a few MBAs from Duke on the street at my old firm.

Top 5 is better than top 10, but again--do what is reasonable. If it makes sense for you to target Duke, then do that.

Also, I would be willing to look at ANY investment firm that would hire you. Just get your foot in the door with some firm. If you do well, the money and fame will follow. And ultimately when you can control cash flows you can dictate your future will a high degree of certainty. Meaning that you can leave for a firm with more prestige or stay put and be a big fish in a small pond.

 

[neurec]

Ok, I really get the feeling that most of the people posting here on SDN forums about the financial world don't really know what they are talking about as evidenced by people's generally vague comments and the fact that people just seem to group all financial services under the heading of I-Banking. So I could not resist explaining some basics about the financial services industry, but in short most high paying financial service jobs are not cushy salaried positions. They are jobs in which pay is based on performance, and your performance is basically a measure of you salesmanship.

Most financial companies now do a little of it all, but here are the basic financial service activities:

I-banking - Underwriting a security. Company says we need more capital, and decides to raise this capital by getting investors to buy IPO's. An investment bank looks at the company and tells the company how much they think the IPO can fetch at auction, and the investment bank underwrites the IPO sale for its projeted sale price. In exchange, the I-bank gets a piece of the action. How does an I-bank make money? It comes up with the most optimistic estimates for IPO values, then it convinces people to buy the IPO at the nice high price. Sometimes it is a fair price, and sometimes it is a rip off. A nice little game that used to be played was to get the mutual fund to buy IPO's at high prices. This way the investment bank attracted business and got more money. If the IPO price crashed, the mutual fund investors took the hit. (Citibank getting into a scandal using this tactic has made it trickier to pull off now.)

Trading Firms - The guys who buy and sell stocks and bonds. They manage mutual funds and hedge funds. How do they make money? They get you to trade shares of stocks and charge you with each trade, they get you to buy into their mutual fund (they take a certain percentage of the net worth of the fund), or they convince you to buy some some stock or bond from them. How do they make money? By selling you something in all 3 cases. They do have analysts who are not direct salesmen, but they tend to have utility in figuring out which stocks or bonds are sellable or in simply giving a salesman credibility when he talks. Rarely are analysts able to say anything meaningful, and they tend to get fired pretty often.

Banking - This means real banking, the guys who make loans. I don't think that this needs explanantion. But unlike the previous two services, these guys actually help to add value to the economy by providing the access to capital. Some salesmanship is required to attract customers, but they make their bg money on more than talk.

There are also other things like financial planning, estate planning, insurance.

Point in all of this. Financial success in I-banks or brokerage firms is largely about being a good salesman. Of course, if you are good salesman you might also have success in setting up a high end cash-only clinic and attracting clients. Having an MD might help you pesuade people that you know more than the next guy about some helathcare company, but that is its chief value.

 

[neurec]

a

 

[parto123]

Ok, I really get the feeling that most of the people posting here on SDN forums about the financial world don't really know what they are talking about as evidenced by people's generally vague comments and the fact that people just seem to group all financial services under the heading of I-Banking. So I could not resist explaining some basics about the financial services industry, but in short most high paying financial service jobs are not cushy salaried positions. They are jobs in which pay is based on performance, and your performance is basically a measure of you salesmanship.

Most financial companies now do a little of it all, but here are the basic financial service activities:

I-banking - Underwriting a security. Company says we need more capital, and decides to raise this capital by getting investors to buy IPO's. An investment bank looks at the company and tells the company how much they think the IPO can fetch at auction, and the investment bank underwrites the IPO sale for its projeted sale price. In exchange, the I-bank gets a piece of the action. How does an I-bank make money? It comes up with the most optimistic estimates for IPO values, then it convinces people to buy the IPO at the nice high price. Sometimes it is a fair price, and sometimes it is a rip off. A nice little game that used to be played was to get the mutual fund to buy IPO's at high prices. This way the investment bank attracted business and got more money. If the IPO price crashed, the mutual fund investors took the hit. (Citibank getting into a scandal using this tactic has made it trickier to pull off now.)

Trading Firms - The guys who buy and sell stocks and bonds. They manage mutual funds and hedge funds. How do they make money? They get you to trade shares of stocks and charge you with each trade, they get you to buy into their mutual fund (they take a certain percentage of the net worth of the fund), or they convince you to buy some some stock or bond from them. How do they make money? By selling you something in all 3 cases. They do have analysts who are not direct salesmen, but they tend to have utility in figuring out which stocks or bonds are sellable or in simply giving a salesman credibility when he talks. Rarely are analysts able to say anything meaningful, and they tend to get fired pretty often.

Banking - This means real banking, the guys who make loans. I don't think that this needs explanantion. But unlike the previous two services, these guys actually help to add value to the economy by providing the access to capital. Some salesmanship is required to attract customers, but they make their bg money on more than talk.

There are also other things like financial planning, estate planning, insurance.

Point in all of this. Financial success in I-banks or brokerage firms is largely about being a good salesman. Of course, if you are good salesman you might also have success in setting up a high end cash-only clinic and attracting clients. Having an MD might help you pesuade people that you know more than the next guy about some helathcare company, but that is its chief value.

There are options for people who arent that into sales, such as trading, advising (i.e. m&a), and buy side work.

 

[MDMBACFA]

My post has led to a number of personal messages with a few common themes. I thought I'd try to address them here.

Do I need an MBA?
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, and if you talk to three people, you will get four opinions. My suggesion is to ask yourself the following two questions:

1. What resources are you willing to dedicate towards getting your MBA (time, energy, and money)?
2. What do you hope to accomplish by getting your MBA?

I did my MBA part time on-line at The University of Massachusetts Amherst. I highly recommend this program as you can take courses asynchronously, at your own pace, at a very reasonable cost, without having to attend classes, while simultaneously working. At the same time, I decided to become a CFA charterholder. Some people make such statements as "you must get your MBA from Wharton, Chicago, or Harvard." My contention (and its proven true for quite a few physicians) is that if you already have an MD, the prestige of your business school is very secondary. My opinion is don't waste your time and money by spending 2 years and $100k+ on a full time degree. Getting a part time MBA does provide you the same knowledge base and shows the investing community that you are serious about investing.

3. What the heck is a CFA? Is it better than an MBA?
A chartered finanical analyst is someone who completed a series of three exams that cover the full gamut of financial skills required to manage assets. The emphasis is on traditional securities, but there is an increasing emphasis on alternative investments. Even enrolling in the curriculum and starting to study for the level I exam shows a lot of initiative.

4. Lot's of questions and confusion about I-banks.
I banks are complicated institutions that engage in a wide spectrum of financial activities. They are best known for the underwriting activities which is a large source of their revenue. They also serve as brokers for "buy side" organizations, and are thus known as "sell side" providers. Being as such, they employ analyst that provide research for the asset management firms, with the intention of attracting their business. I-banks make commisions every time an asset management firm makes a transaction, so keeping the buy siders happy and active is important. I could write for pages about I banks, and the problem with writing anything is someone is going to object with my incomplete explanation. Suffice to say that I-banks employ research analysts (some of whom are physicians). Furthermore, asset management firms employ physicians to engage in research and portfolio management (this is what I do).

5. What are the possible positions for someone with a medical background interested in the corporate world?
--Pharma
--Biotech
--Consulting
--Venture Capital/Private Equity
--Asset Management
--Sell-side research for Investment managment firms
--Hedge Funds
--Investment research shops (like Think equity, etc.)
--Entrepreneurship/startups

I'll continue this post soon, and discuss the above further.
Good luck to all of you and always remember...

Everyday that you wake up and decide to practice medicine is a choice. If you one day choose to do something else, there are plenty of opportunities out there, and you will do well, both personally and finanicially. If you decide you love medicine and want to stick with it, then god bless you. It's a noble profession and I feel honored to be a part of it. I have absolutely no bitterness for the medical profession, despite leaving it after 10 years. Having said this, I never for a moment regret my decision to leave. I am generally a very happy person and I was very very unhappy in medicine. Leaving saved me.

Cheers.