Match week 2020 discussion

[Mandelin Rain]

I mean the whole point of this site is to help medical students make good career decisions, not to inspire academic chairmen to behave differently. It’s named “student” doctor dot net. So......... is it really doing nothing..... or are talent medical students making informed decisions and entering fields where they are more set up for success and to make an impact?

If the academic chairmen want to train FMGs to write notes for them, that’s on them.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted1002574]

DebtRising says don’t talk about something unless you are sure you can actually change things.

That is the most anti-freedom, anti-liberty, pathetic, and victim stance one can take. Like the Bobby Knight line that Scarb loves to bring up.

No, I won’t just enjoy it. I’ll continue to complain. If 25, or 15, or even 1 future Radonc chose a field that is forward looking and will take care of them, the this is all worth it.

 

[Splenda88]

Someone got to do something to fix that mess....

 

[DebtRising]

Not sure if trying to bait or not, but just for clarification - I very much believe the issues should be highlighted here whether or not they lead to change, and was disagreeing with telorad's position. And that should continue whether chair's or ASTRO care or not.

But in the spirit of internet arguing, we can fight about something else if you would like!

 

[xrthopeful]

why has ROA (big DC northern VA private group) posted a job for a THIRD time in the last few months? I don't get how they can't fill that position, that's a top PP group. I know they posted late in the year but still....

 

[RickyScott]

why has ROA (big DC northern VA private group) posted a job for a THIRD time in the last few months? I don't get how they can't fill that position, that's a top PP group. I know they posted late in the year but still....

Either they are looking for a Rhodes scholar type or they offering an awful package. Is this the same group that was looking for a fellow for their just built proton unit?

 

[medgator]

Either they are looking for a Rhodes scholar type or they offering an awful package. Is this the same group that was looking for a fellow for their just built proton unit?

No mention of partnership either in the current listing....

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Either they are looking for a Rhodes scholar type or they offering an awful package. Is this the same group that was looking for a fellow for their just built proton unit?

I hear it’s more the latter.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Yeah I mean INOVA is a great group that’s always been successful and paid well.

Here it seems clear to me that they want someone with proton experience and they can afford to find the right person.

 

[RickyScott]

Yeah I mean INOVA is a great group that’s always been successful and paid well.

Here it seems clear to me that they want someone with proton experience and they can afford to find the right person.

Plenty residents and junior faculty with proton experience for job. My guess is the package and partnership track. They may have decided to become a closed group- no new partners. Irvine of Virginia? (So many proton fellows out there because of the glut, many who don’t work in protons)

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Plenty residents and junior faculty with proton experience for job. My guess is the package and partnership track. They may have decided to become a closed group- no new partners.

No I agree there are good people but they likely have the luxury of finding the right person rather than being in need of needing to hire.

 

[RickyScott]

No I agree there are good people but they likely have the luxury of finding the right person rather than being in need of needing to hire.

Hard to believe that there is a “right” person. Almost Everyone who graduates now is smart enough for job and many have good personal skills as well. Maybe one of those cases where they think there is a “superstar” out there who is willing to take a garbage package. When the very fact that he is willing to take package probably means he is not “superstar” despite resume. That being said all bets off with COVID.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Cool so you are saying the job market is great enough that people are willingly turning down job offer from INOVA! Wow! You must be an out of touch chairman!

(Or the obvious answer that a highly selective group that usually doesn’t even post on the ASTRO site is being....highly selective).

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Must be a PISS POOR package they offer and no chump out there with “proton experience” desperate enough to take it.....YET, they can wait until the right time and take advantage of someone.

 

[RickyScott]

Cool so you are saying the job market is great enough that people are willingly turning down job offer from INOVA! Wow! You must be an out of touch chairman!

(Or the obvious answer that a highly selective group that usually doesn’t even post on the ASTRO site is being....highly selective).

Inova very well could be offering a lot worse package than you would get at a satellite for mskcc/mdacc etc but expecting the same kind of applicant. Large group in NE does this.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Lol the idea of them offering a bad package is a total SDN rumor that is now fact.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Lol the idea of them offering a bad package is a total SDN rumor that is now fact.

Or it could be real, but we can choose to believe what we want to believe in.

 

[Carotenoid]

So you are saying SDN is to blame for the decrease in competitiveness?

Is SDN also to blame for the decrease in competitiveness of pathology and nuclear medicine or do you think there is maybe a slight chance that medical students are acting in their best interests given the options available?

SDN merey reported the events and circumstances. It didn't create the situation.

 

[Carotenoid]

BTW, is that true what I heard about Methodist in Brooklyn - did they expand to 5 residents now?

 

[radoncgrad2019]

BTW, is that true what I heard about Methodist in Brooklyn - did they expand to 5 residents now?

No. 2 at Methodist per google doc

 

[thecarbonionangle]

SDN merey reported the events and circumstances. It didn't create the situation.

NY METHODIST is a bloody terrible, no good, absolutely PISS POOR programme. Why does NYP have so many bad programmes: NYP-Methodist, NYP Columbia, NYP Cornell, total of 6 residents per year absolutely pitiful places which consistently receive bad reviews. That is a total of 24 residents!

 

[Carotenoid]

NY METHODIST is a terrible, no good, absolutely PISS POOR programme. Why does NYP have so many bad programmes: NYP-Methodist, NYP Columbia, NYP Cornell, total of 6 residents per year absolutely pitiful places which consistently receive bad reviews. That is a total of 24 residents!

very interesting question

 

[Carotenoid]

No. 2 at Methodist per google doc

depressing still.

 

[Gfunk6]

ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.

I think analogies can be drawn to our current COVID-19 pandemic. It's never a problem until the economy is tanking, people are unemployed, and citizens can't even leave their homes.

Similarly, RadOnc job market and residency expansion will become a problem once jobs become unavailable and salaries start tanking. It is not a matter of if but when.

Regarding SDN, I come here because I enjoy the banter and sometimes I learn a thing or two. I don't view SDN as a political platform to change RadOnc.

 

[Telorad]

I think analogies can be drawn to our current COVID-19 pandemic. It's never a problem until the economy is tanking, people are unemployed, and citizens can't even leave their homes.

Similarly, RadOnc job market and residency expansion will become a problem once jobs become unavailable and salaries start tanking. It is not a matter of if but when.

Regarding SDN, I come here because I enjoy the banter and sometimes I learn a thing or two. I don't view SDN as a political platform to change RadOnc.

I agree completely. The trend I've noticed is people are using SDN more and more as a political platform to change radonc and so I was just pointing out that it doesn't do much other than potentially deter quality applicants away from the field. When the inevitable occurs as you say, change will have to happen.

 

[medgator]

I agree completely. The trend I've noticed is people are using SDN more and more as a political platform to change radonc and so I was just pointing out that it doesn't do much other than potentially deter quality applicants away from the field. When the inevitable occurs as you say, change will have to happen.

So sdn did end up doing something?

 

[deleted1002574]

Oops. I completely misunderstood your post. My bad. We are on the same page.

Not sure if trying to bait or not, but just for clarification - I very much believe the issues should be highlighted here whether or not they lead to change, and was disagreeing with telorad's position. And that should continue whether chair's or ASTRO care or not.

But in the spirit of internet arguing, we can fight about something else if you would like!

 

[deleted1002574]

So sdn did end up doing something?

I think highlighted what is happening, but I don’t think we affected change from the leadership. They are even more fixed in their ways and the beliefs are unwavering. The change that occurred is from the applicant level.

 

[KHE88]

NY METHODIST is a bloody terrible, no good, absolutely PISS POOR programme. Why does NYP have so many bad programmes: NYP-Methodist, NYP Columbia, NYP Cornell, total of 6 residents per year absolutely pitiful places which consistently receive bad reviews. That is a total of 24 residents!

Is that the one that "matched" the chair's son in the early 2010s?

If so, F that place forever.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Is that the one that "matched" the chair's son in the early 2010s?

If so, F that place forever.

yup the worst curruption. Chairman’s son and daughter of attending have graduated or are current residents.

 

[deleted774703]

yup the worst curruption. Chairman’s son and daughter of attending have graduated or are current residents.

yes chairman son a senior resident

Former attending grad is now an attending at our favorite place drumroll please....Penn St

 

[FrostyHammer]

P

yes chairman son a senior resident

Former attending grad is now an attending at our favorite place drumroll please....Penn St

Speaking of which, guess where Paul H's son matched?

 

[fiji128]

P
Speaking of which, guess where Paul H's son matched?

Top 10 internal medicine program.

 

[scarbrtj]

I think highlighted what is happening, but I don’t think we affected change from the leadership. They are even more fixed in their ways and the beliefs are unwavering. The change that occurred is from the applicant level.

I kind of sort of feel that the upcoming coronavirus icing on rad onc’s cake is going to affect changes in hearts and minds of the leadership. Like an ‘Inception.’ The reason I think this is because a lot of (financial) things are about to become really real for the leadership and it ain’t just some Internet miscreants’ bellyaching anymore.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

To give an idea of the match and how things have changed. I work in a community hospital with a TY program. They would average 2-3 Rad oncs a year, pretty good program. This year there are none that went into rad onc, most, if not all went into Derm, radiology and PM&R.

 

[RickyScott]

I agree completely. The trend I've noticed is people are using SDN more and more as a political platform to change radonc and so I was just pointing out that it doesn't do much other than potentially deter quality applicants away from the field. When the inevitable occurs as you say, change will have to happen.

Are you implying that the truth be hidden from quality applicants. If they are truly “quality” not hard for them to understand what is going on. For the zillionth time zeitman, the editor of red journal has been diplomatically making his concerns known for quite some time with “canaries in coal Mine” article. Applicants just have to look at that and ignore sdn.

 

[RickyScott]

NY METHODIST is a bloody terrible, no good, absolutely PISS POOR programme. Why does NYP have so many bad programmes: NYP-Methodist, NYP Columbia, NYP Cornell, total of 6 residents per year absolutely pitiful places which consistently receive bad reviews. That is a total of 24 residents!

Because they can. It is freaking nyc! Heard one of the best known chairs there is totally insane, but until she was chair, none of these places were malignant to my knowledge and again it’s nyc.

 

[deleted774703]

Because they can. It is freaking nyc! Heard one of the best known chairs there is totally insane, but until she was chair, none of these places were malignant to my knowledge and again it’s nyc.

2 of the 3 programs in the “NYP system” are not “malignant” per se

1 of 3 is absolutely one of the bottom 3 programs in the entire country and has been for >10 years. I still remember them interviewing ~50% of all applicants in my year. And it has lot of nepotism

1 of 3 was devoid of leadership for a decent stretch of time and was not considered a good program. Just was in NYC. Recently got a new chair and everyone in program has turned insufferable on radonc Twitter ever since

1 of 3 is currently malignant. Complete disaster for residents

I’ll let ppl read bw the lines on which is which

 

[evilbooyaa]

@Telorad

SDN, by giving the information about job market, are in a roundabout way, preventing residency expansion at some level. While this is not as ideal as residency contraction, it is better than doing nothing.

2 pieces of anonymous info, quoted word for word, from folks that I know are at two separate programs.

1. "Our program had to SOAP. We did not fill all of our spots (the spreadsheet is wrong) - the PD did not offer the final spot to anybody. This was reportedly due to concerns about the low quality of the candidates in the SOAP. Whether we will fill outside the match is to be seen. PD/Chair were planning to expand further but have decided to hold off for now based on this application year."

2. "Our program didn't fill in the first round of the match. The rapidly expanding residency program had already been approved nationally for two more residency positions.

GME took notice of the decreased demand and failure to fill positions. They blocked the program from adding the two new residents as a result. The program director and chair now act as if it was their idea not to expand, but that is a lie.

This is two positions that don't exist, at least for now and at least in part because the word about the job market is getting out on studentdoctor. Keep up the good work. "

 

[Carotenoid]

Geography geography geography geography! Matters more than $ and lifestyle.
Many don’t want to abandon family. Some of them have spouses.

besides, you can only "make love" to your specialty if you can actually practice it... it becomes too platonic when you are unemployed

 

[Carotenoid]

ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.

Another thing. Many members of our leadership matriculated/graduated in an era where the standard to enter the profession was very low; I'm sure some truly loved the specialty, but many became rad oncs because they didn't have the credentials to enter a more coveted field. In their not very self-critical minds, they "ended up OK". Why would they see the current trend as a decline?
Might they even feel certain schadenfreude that the types that outperformed them in med school (if they even got into med school) are now struggling to get A job?

 

[Carotenoid]

DebtRising says don’t talk about something unless you are sure you can actually change things.

That is the most anti-freedom, anti-liberty, pathetic, and victim stance one can take. Like the Bobby Knight line that Scarb loves to bring up.

No, I won’t just enjoy it. I’ll continue to complain. If 25, or 15, or even 1 future Radonc chose a field that is forward looking and will take care of them, the this is all worth it.

I don't think it was DebtRising saying that (that the labor market should not be discussed). I think you are confusing him with Telorad

 

[Carotenoid]

Is that the one that "matched" the chair's son in the early 2010s?

If so, F that place forever.

i thought the chairman's son graduated this year? or last?

 

[scarbrtj]

besides, you can only "make love" to your specialty if you can actually practice it... it becomes too platonic when you are unemployed

Obscure W reference +1

 

[Telorad]

@Telorad

SDN, by giving the information about job market, are in a roundabout way, preventing residency expansion at some level. While this is not as ideal as residency contraction, it is better than doing nothing.

2 pieces of anonymous info, quoted word for word, from folks that I know are at two separate programs.

1. "Our program had to SOAP. We did not fill all of our spots (the spreadsheet is wrong) - the PD did not offer the final spot to anybody. This was reportedly due to concerns about the low quality of the candidates in the SOAP. Whether we will fill outside the match is to be seen. PD/Chair were planning to expand further but have decided to hold off for now based on this application year."

2. "Our program didn't fill in the first round of the match. The rapidly expanding residency program had already been approved nationally for two more residency positions.

GME took notice of the decreased demand and failure to fill positions. They blocked the program from adding the two new residents as a result. The program director and chair now act as if it was their idea not to expand, but that is a lie.

This is two positions that don't exist, at least for now and at least in part because the word about the job market is getting out on studentdoctor. Keep up the good work. "

Good information to know and thanks for sharing.

To clarify - I am not saying that we should do nothing nor was I saying we don't have reason to complain about the job market. Just pointing out that when we overwhelm SDN forums with only 1 topic over and over and over again (there is a thread literally making fun of people anonymously about what they post on twitter), we lose quality applicants as evidenced from the last two years, with minimal change because majority of programs will still fill in SOAP.

Reading some of the responses to my opinion on this thread it sounds like most people are doing this because they have some personal vendetta against department heads. Which is all well and good, just calling it for what it is. It is not because they are genuinely concerned about random prospective applicants future job outlook (I don't buy that at all).

 

[RickyScott]

Good information to know and thanks for sharing.

To clarify - I am not saying that we should do nothing nor was I saying we don't have reason to complain about the job market. Just pointing out that when we overwhelm SDN forums with only 1 topic over and over and over again (there is a thread literally making fun of people anonymously about what they post on twitter), we lose quality applicants as evidenced from the last two years, with minimal change because majority of programs will still fill in SOAP.

Reading some of the responses to my opinion on this thread it sounds like most people are doing this because they have some personal vendetta against department heads. Which is all well and good, just calling it for what it is. It is not because they are genuinely concerned about random prospective applicants future job outlook (I don't buy that at all).

Let me be transparent: I have been around the block in large departments and seen people pushed out for political reasons or because a new chair (very famous) could hire juniors at a fraction of salary (everyone landed on their feet at the time) Docs who had devoted career to university were forced out. Right now, I have good relationship with my administrator and have a great job but I have seen how that can quickly change or he could be leave. For first time in my life, I Know I will be in a world of hurt if I was forced out and would almost certainly be separated from immediate family. I am completely beholden. There are 0 jobs in my geographic region. This just does not exist elsewhere in medicine. It really grates me.

 

[PhotonBomb]

Let me be transparent: I have been around the block in large departments and seen people pushed out for political reasons or because a new chair (very famous) could hire juniors at a fraction of salary. Docs who had devoted career to university were forced out. Right now, I have good relationship with my administrator and have a great job but I have seen how that can quickly change or he could be leave. For first time in my life, I Know I will be in a world of hurt if I was forced out and would almost certainly be separated from immediate family. I am completely beholden. There are 0 jobs in my geographic region. This just does not exist elsewhere in medicine.

James Bonner?

 

[deleted947887]

Good information to know and thanks for sharing.

To clarify - I am not saying that we should do nothing nor was I saying we don't have reason to complain about the job market. Just pointing out that when we overwhelm SDN forums with only 1 topic over and over and over again (there is a thread literally making fun of people anonymously about what they post on twitter), we lose quality applicants as evidenced from the last two years, with minimal change because majority of programs will still fill in SOAP.

Reading some of the responses to my opinion on this thread it sounds like most people are doing this because they have some personal vendetta against department heads. Which is all well and good, just calling it for what it is. It is not because they are genuinely concerned about random prospective applicants future job outlook (I don't buy that at all).

This is very fair. This is also like saying when many chairs and PDs talk about expanding for the good of society it has everything to do with their own personal benefit and nothing to do with the good of society.

 

[deleted1002574]

What's the vendetta?

Expand at will. 300 residents fine. Not enough? Make it 400. Profess the need for fellowships. Create more academic satellites. Make residents scut workers and scribes for the clinic. Whatever. I don't care. Doesn't matter to me. I'm fine and will be for years.

 

[RickyScott]

Does anyone believe that the doubling of residents was by collective intelligent design rather than program self interest? And if it was by program self interest, how could it turn out ok?