Match week 2020 discussion

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w00tz said:
I guess I overestimated the power of SDN
Underestimated the power of #radoncrocks
Overestimated the good will of programs/PD/chairs
Way underestimated the naivete of med students
Yeesh. I just feel dumb now.
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I think you're reading that statement the wrong way - It says if you were a MD senior who wanted rad onc in 2019 (last year), you had the highest rate of matching last year. Match rate from the applicant perspective, not the program perspective, which is not surprising, given that most (if not all) people (including every single US MD) with demonstrated interest in rad onc and a pulse matched this year.

Can't get a dramatic increase up from (near) 100%.

RickyScott said:
Does it really matter? All spots would have filled. Will now just have a bunch of angry pgy5s in 5 years or whenever they realize they have been misled.
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Or we'll have IMGs/FMGs just happy to be a doctor in the US and willing to take exploitative jobs for 200k salary in rural areas, a la pathology.
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Ionized said:
I just got word from a few Loma Linda alumni that their residency program has expanded spots. For the incoming 2020 class they matched 1 person from last year but added an additional person for this incoming year. For this 2020 match class starting next they took 2 people which is up from their usual 1 per year. Yikes.
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They're listed as having 2 PGY-4s on their website. I believe they are a program with total of 6 residents?

Wonder if they're still treating people on their outdated proton machine and doing LDR gyn brachy....
 
evilbooyaa said:
They're listed as having 2 PGY-4s on their website. I believe they are a program with total of 6 residents?

Wonder if they're still treating people on their outdated proton machine and doing LDR gyn brachy....
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Correct sorry, accidentally deleted last post.

They're approved for 6 spots, from 5 where it was previously. I guess 1 spot isn't AS huge of a deal.
 
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They'll fill too.
Ionized said:
Correct sorry, accidentally deleted last post.

They're approved for 6 spots, from 5 where it was previously. I guess 1 spot isn't AS huge of a deal.
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Doesn't help.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
If I'm looking at this correctly, 65% of spots were filled with US seniors?

That means that >1/3 was filled by DO, Caribbean, or FMG?

Seems unthinkable 10 years ago. Hell, 3 years ago.
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Wait only 128 US seniors from both MD and DO or this just include allopathic? If this sis true it’s terrible and public shaming for lack of integrity is in order.
 
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MD Seniors is what the document say. I take that as just allopathic.
 
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The Breadlines are coming folks. They are gonna be some of the biggest lines you have ever seen!
 
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Already happening. Been to a Costco lately???
 
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PGY2 - 114 US, 143 Total
PGY1 - 8 US, 11 Total

So 122 US MD seniors matched into radonc and there were 154 total spots available to seniors in the match. So 79.2%?
 
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Aphtalyfe said:
PGY2 - 114 US, 143 Total
PGY1 - 8 US, 11 Total

So 122 US MD seniors matched into radonc and there were 154 total spots available to seniors in the match. So 79.2%?
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By my cursory glance that puts our rad onc at the bottom of the match percent barrel. Like down with some weird specialties too. Kneecapologists and such.
 
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Aphtalyfe said:
PGY2 - 114 US, 143 Total
PGY1 - 8 US, 11 Total

So 122 US MD seniors matched into radonc and there were 154 total spots available to seniors in the match. So 79.2%?
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Does that include SOAP spots? 154 + 35 = 189 which is not fully back to what we need to be at. There are way more than 154 spots available for graduating US MDs this year...
 
Matched today at a uswnr T20 program for IM. My rad onc main letter writer told me he felt "betrayed." I just wasn't enough of an idealist to jump into the quagmire.

I encourage all future students thinking about rad onc to double apply.
 
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It’s not like you couldn’t apply to radonc in 2 years if you wanted. And you wouldn’t need a letter! And you would match at harvard
 
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TheIllusionist said:
Matched today at a uswnr T20 program for IM. My rad onc main letter writer told me he felt "betrayed." I just wasn't enough of an idealist to jump into the quagmire.

I encourage all future students thinking about rad onc to double apply.
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Don’t burn bridges. Offer to write him a letter in a couple years if he wants to leave speciality.
 
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TheIllusionist said:
My rad onc main letter writer told me he felt "betrayed."
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The arrogance and lack of mentorship here is... not astounding at all, but really unfortunate.

Congrats on your match! I hope it's the start of a great next phase in your life and career
 
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How about this for some irony. As of today, program that matched an IMG from out of country, as things stand, will not have a resident.

www.uscis.gov

USCIS Announces Temporary Suspension of Premium Processing for All I-129 and I-140 Petitions Due to the Coronavirus Pandemic | USCIS

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services today announced the immediate and temporary suspension of premium processing service for all Form I-129 and I-140 petitions until further notice due to Coronavirus 2019 (COVID-19).
www.uscis.gov

Now, the US may reverse this decision in the coming days/weeks as they realize how many incoming doctors this affects. Or, with how the current administration competencies fall, they may not. Only time will tell. How about this for a curveball?
 
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Let me recap SDN radonc over the past 5 years culminating in the events of yesterday.

Radonc spots were increasing due to program proliferation --> Current trainees and recent graduates got upset with this trend due to job market insecurities --> in order to prevent further expansion of program and spots SDN was used as a means to disseminate fear among medical students to prevent them from being interested in radonc--> this worked as US seniors applying to radonc dwindled from 220+ in 2015 to ~150 (or less?) in 2019 and 2020 --> Everyone on SDN thinks this is a huge achievement and are patting themselves on the back.

In reality, ~190 spots were still filled this year. All the programs that said they weren't going to SOAP without students having "prior experience" (3 per the excel doc), ended up filling all spots in the SOAP (so really no point in that publication other than to pad their CV's). The only thing that has changed (as noted above) is we now have 1/3 of our current trainees matching either FMGs or US Seniors with no prior interest in radonc soaping into our specialty. Does this have any effect on the future job market? Nope. Will this change anything moving forward? Unlikely.

Conclusion- spending hours on SDN bashing your own specialty to deter people from applying so as to improve your chances of landing a high-paying job in the geographical area you desire is pointless, meaningless, and a huge waste of your time.
 
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Telorad said:
Let me recap SDN radonc over the past 5 years culminating in the events of yesterday.

Radonc spots were increasing due to program proliferation --> Current trainees and recent graduates got upset with this trend due to job market insecurities --> in order to prevent further expansion of program and spots SDN was used as a means to disseminate fear among medical students to prevent them from being interested in radonc--> this worked as US seniors applying to radonc dwindled from 220+ in 2015 to ~150 (or less?) in 2019 and 2020 --> Everyone on SDN thinks this is a huge achievement and are patting themselves on the back.

In reality, ~190 spots were still filled this year. All the programs that said they weren't going to SOAP without students having "prior experience" (3 per the excel doc), ended up filling all spots in the SOAP (so really no point in that publication other than to pad their CV's). The only thing that has changed (as noted above) is we now have 1/3 of our current trainees matching either FMGs or US Seniors with no prior interest in radonc soaping into our specialty. Does this have any effect on the future job market? Nope. Will this change anything moving forward? Unlikely.

Conclusion- spending hours on SDN bashing your own specialty to deter people from applying so as to improve your chances of landing a high-paying job in the geographical area you desire is pointless, meaningless, and a huge waste of your time.
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Faulty logic IMO. Chairs were exposed for being the greedy pigs they are. There is an emotional satisfaction to that.
 
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Telorad said:
Let me recap SDN radonc over the past 5 years culminating in the events of yesterday.

Radonc spots were increasing due to program proliferation --> Current trainees and recent graduates got upset with this trend due to job market insecurities --> in order to prevent further expansion of program and spots SDN was used as a means to disseminate fear among medical students to prevent them from being interested in radonc--> this worked as US seniors applying to radonc dwindled from 220+ in 2015 to ~150 (or less?) in 2019 and 2020 --> Everyone on SDN thinks this is a huge achievement and are patting themselves on the back.

In reality, ~190 spots were still filled this year. All the programs that said they weren't going to SOAP without students having "prior experience" (3 per the excel doc), ended up filling all spots in the SOAP (so really no point in that publication other than to pad their CV's). The only thing that has changed (as noted above) is we now have 1/3 of our current trainees matching either FMGs or US Seniors with no prior interest in radonc soaping into our specialty. Does this have any effect on the future job market? Nope. Will this change anything moving forward? Unlikely.

Conclusion- spending hours on SDN bashing your own specialty to deter people from applying so as to improve your chances of landing a high-paying job in the geographical area you desire is pointless, meaningless, and a huge waste of your time.
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Last i checked, ASTRO noticed and many top tier US MD students are better for the efforts that were started here.

PDs and programs are welcome to take the bottom of the barrel while specialties like psych and radiology continue to improve in desirability
 
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Telorad said:
Let me recap SDN radonc over the past 5 years culminating in the events of yesterday.

Radonc spots were increasing due to program proliferation --> Current trainees and recent graduates got upset with this trend due to job market insecurities --> in order to prevent further expansion of program and spots SDN was used as a means to disseminate fear among medical students to prevent them from being interested in radonc--> this worked as US seniors applying to radonc dwindled from 220+ in 2015 to ~150 (or less?) in 2019 and 2020 --> Everyone on SDN thinks this is a huge achievement and are patting themselves on the back.

In reality, ~190 spots were still filled this year. All the programs that said they weren't going to SOAP without students having "prior experience" (3 per the excel doc), ended up filling all spots in the SOAP (so really no point in that publication other than to pad their CV's). The only thing that has changed (as noted above) is we now have 1/3 of our current trainees matching either FMGs or US Seniors with no prior interest in radonc soaping into our specialty. Does this have any effect on the future job market? Nope. Will this change anything moving forward? Unlikely.

Conclusion- spending hours on SDN bashing your own specialty to deter people from applying so as to improve your chances of landing a high-paying job in the geographical area you desire is pointless, meaningless, and a huge waste of your time.
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Some brilliant minds are now likely in specialities that need them and where they will thrive.

Also, please don’t overestimate impact of forums. Brightest group I have ever been around were medschool classmates. They are not basing the single most important decision of their lives due to rantings on anon forums.

Radonc hitting rock bottom because reality is it has dreadful job outlook, not because anonymous internet posters say It is reality- and you seem to be confusing the two! We are really getting into the basics of philiosphiclal positivism.
 
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Telorad said:
Conclusion- spending hours on SDN bashing your own specialty to deter people from applying so as to improve your chances of landing a high-paying job in the geographical area you desire is pointless, meaningless, and a huge waste of your time.
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So you are saying SDN is to blame for the decrease in competitiveness?

Is SDN also to blame for the decrease in competitiveness of pathology and nuclear medicine or do you think there is maybe a slight chance that medical students are acting in their best interests given the options available?
 
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RadOncG said:
So you are saying SDN is to blame for the decrease in competitiveness?

Is SDN also to blame for the decrease in competitiveness of pathology and nuclear medicine or do you think there is maybe a slight chance that medical students area acting in their best interests given the options available?
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Precisely. Stupid medstudents are influenced
By anonymous internet posters when it comes to making the most important profesional decision of their life. There is so much arrogance to unpack here.
 
Predictions are an unemployment rate of 20+ percent. Mnuchin agrees. Closest thing we have seen is 1930’s during great depression. Unfurtunately for this country Bernie is done so no FDR, you got Biden or Orange man. Bread lines no longer a question but only when?? No TP to wipe away your bottom or your tears. We are going to see a lot of practices prolong hiring indefinitely, old partners continue to work as 401ks are wiped out, and people who have offers and are sitting on contracts without signing will have offers pulled. Contracts will not be honoured. Academic institutions will see their endowment decline significantly and hiring, expansions, new hospital projects will be prolonged Indefinitely.

significant rise in violent crime to follow as food shortages, loss of housing and income lead people to desperate measures. Next up is a shortage of guns and ammunition, as people prepare for “the purge”.

Get ready folks because you ain’t seen nothing yet.


the people who matched into rad onc this year have no excuse, and piss poor programs who filled with almost pulseles lukewarm bodies and FMGs need to be shut down.
 
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thecarbonionangle said:
Predictions are an unemployment rate of 20 percent. Mnuchin agrees. Closest thing we have seen is 1930’s during great depression. Unfurtunately for this country Bernie is done so no FDR, you got Biden or Orange man. Bread lines no longer a question but only when?? No TP to wipe away your bottom or your tears. We are going to see a lot of practices prolong hiring indefinitely, old partners continue to work as 401ks are wiped out, and people who have offers and are sitting on contracts without signing will have offers pulled. Contracts will not be honoured. Academic instituions will see their endowment decline significantly and hiring, expansions, new hospital projects prolonged Indefinitely.

Get ready folks because you ain’t seen nothing yet.


the people who matched into rad onc this year have no excuse, and piss poor programs who filled with almost pulseles lukewarm bodies and FMGs need to be shut down.
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Warnings not heeded and crappy part it seems there is no penalty for chairs and PDs. Well except for maybe the continual spiral down of the PP vs academics relationship. Hard to see them as great bastions of knowledge and drivers of the field, when they act in this manner. The top programs will come out and say “hey we did no wrong” but we are not really talking to you, it’s the other 75% of programs who don’t care! If they all divided up the 128 seniors we would be in fine shape, but alas we knew this was coming. When jobs will be scarce and starting <300k we know who to blame. Seriously, academics, everybody is pissed off and COVID and stock market tank is more fuel to the already dumpster fire!
 
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RadOncMegatron said:
Warnings not heeded and crappy part it seems there is no penalty for chairs and PDs. Well except for maybe the continual spiral down of the PP vs academics relationship. Hard to see them as great bastions of knowledge and drivers of the field, when they act in this manner. The top programs will come out and say “hey we did no wrong” but we are not really talking to you, it’s the other 75% of programs who don’t care! If they all divided up the 128 seniors we would be in fine shape, but alas we knew this was coming. When jobs will be scarce and starting <300k we know who to blame. Seriously, academics, everybody is pissed off and COVID and stock market tank is more fuel to the already dumpster fire!
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Was quickly looking at twiiter and shocked to see programs like Emory with 4 docs and UCSD with 3 entering. Wtf?
 
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RickyScott said:
Was quickly looking at twiiter and shocked to see programs like Emory with 4 docs and UCSD with 3 entering. Wtf?
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I agree with Megatron. I don’t think top places like Emory and UCSD are the major problem imo
 
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thecarbonionangle said:
Predictions are an unemployment rate of 20+ percent. Mnuchin agrees. Closest thing we have seen is 1930’s during great depression. Unfurtunately for this country Bernie is done so no FDR, you got Biden or Orange man. Bread lines no longer a question but only when?? No TP to wipe away your bottom or your tears. We are going to see a lot of practices prolong hiring indefinitely, old partners continue to work as 401ks are wiped out, and people who have offers and are sitting on contracts without signing will have offers pulled. Contracts will not be honoured. Academic institutions will see their endowment decline significantly and hiring, expansions, new hospital projects will be prolonged Indefinitely.

significant rise in violent crime to follow as food shortages, loss of housing and income lead people to desperate measures. Next up is a shortage of guns and ammunition, as people prepare for “the purge”.

Get ready folks because you ain’t seen nothing yet.


the people who matched into rad onc this year have no excuse, and piss poor programs who filled with almost pulseles lukewarm bodies and FMGs need to be shut down.
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How strange are these times? Carbonionangle’s funny hyperbole has become the untrammeled truth. That’s how strange.

If I had to find a job in this environment right now it’d give me a case of the norovirus.
 
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Are you guys telling me that a lot of med students were never in-love with radonc?


I guess many were after the lifestyle and the $$$...
 
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Splenda88 said:
Are you guys telling me that a lot of med students were never in-love with radonc?


I guess many were after the lifestyle and the $$$...
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Geography geography geography geography! Matters more than $ and lifestyle.
Many don’t want to abandon family. Some of them have spouses.
 
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RickyScott said:
Geography geography geography geography! Matters more than $ and lifestyle.
Many don’t want to abandon family. Some of them have spouses.
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Some still can't wrap their collective heads around the idea of sub-200k starting salaries in parts of California/NE with little chance for advancement, while people are crushing it in flyover country making 3-4x as much after just a year or two in practice.

These disparities exist for a reason. Geography matters
 
medgator said:
Some still can't wrap their collective heads around the idea of sub-200k starting salaries in parts of California/NE with little chance for advancement, while people are crushing it in flyover country making 3-4x as much after just a year or two in practice.

Geography matters
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And some can’t understand that the least desirable (rural) jobs fill last (got to be a first principle for that) and therefore argue maldistribution to deflect from oversupply caused by doubling of residents.
 
Society doesn’t need more radiation oncologists. The field published an overtraining in 2015. Since then fractions cut, apm, supervision rules. Yes my posts are like broken records. Astro workforce survey said 50% of field was worried. Chairs, astro didn’t care one bit.

If programs soap let them. Happy this forum could highlight the published data, along the the general vibe from the field which is in tune with the mentioned survey, to let students who have decades of career that the future here is projected to be very poor.

keep it up until there is real dialogue with leadership, an honest conversation about the oversupply projection, the workforce survey, and the apm / supervision changes. I don’t expect the people who ignored all this to not soap their programs - what other cheap labor would write all the notes? A resident can do the work of 2x PAs for 1/2 the cost, or none of its from Medicare! We can at least limit the damage to other high caliber Med students until or if the above ever happens.
 
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ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.
 
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Telorad said:
ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.
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Exactly. I completely agree. I love the how Nassim Taleb in "Skin in the Game" points out that kings of old had to ride in THE FRONT OF THE BATTLE to make sure they had something to lose with their decisions.

Literally, here the Chairs and PDs LOSE NOTHING. They have no incentive to change b/c obviously honor, integrity, and camaraderie aren't worth it. Drs. Parikh, Tendulkar, and Chirag definitely have my respect. Yes, it's a hard decision for academics and I do not envy having to be in their position, but nonetheless, you can't take the reins of power and expect only glory. Honor and integrity count when IT IS HARD, not when you have MD/PhDs with step 1's 260 applying to your programs.

I loathe the fact that the rift between academics and PP is widening! It should not be! But if this is how they play the game it will be the inevitable outcome.
 
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Telorad said:
ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.
Click to expand...


Sometimes complaining is the only thing to do. Let me grieve! We are living in bad times here!
 
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Telorad said:
ASTRO noticed because the current president wrote an op-ed that said absolutely nothing and was read by absolutely no one?

Chairs were exposed by who? What current radonc department chair has suffered in his career due to residency expansion?

No one has been exposed. Nothing has changed. There has been a "job outlook" talk or seminar every year at ASTRO for the past 5+ years, and it is all much ado about nothing. Same people talk, same people complain, no policy changes are made. There is no dialogue with leadership that is going to change anything. I bet you MDACC and HROP will see the results of this year's match and go back and add back that spot by next year.

When money is involved, people will continue to act in their own self-interests. Academic departments and large hospital groups will continue to expand and open satellites, and take a larger chunk of the market share that was historically held by private practice groups. It's going to happen. Complaining in anonymous fashion on these forums does nothing. Not sure how much longer it is going to take for you all to realize that fact.
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Rad onc has fallen from grace. It is no longer an elite, highly sought after ROAD type specialty which matches top tier US MD and MD/PhD candidates. The data from this year's match will eventually confirm this trend over the last few years and going forward.

The competitive US/FMG/DO candidates would rather match into a specialty like psych where demand has been skyrocketing, salaries are moving up and the geography is wide open. This is borne out by the numbers which now show psych being way more competitive than rad onc.

Rad onc being a bottom tier "safety" specialty in the match for the weakest candidates... That means something to chairs and PDs, i assure you, when they remember matching AOA MD/PhDs with multiple RO pubs/presentations a decade or two ago. Essentially it has switched places with psych, and has come full circle to where it was in the 70s-90s
 
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Yea I completely agree with you that nothing on leadership side has changed. I hope it will but it hasn’t.

So then a bunch of anonymous people without power highlight the data and there views and it gets across to some students making career choices so they can be informed. What’s the problem with that? If you want to argue that the singular focus on that overwhelms the forum, right on, I agree and do not post much currently. But I don’t think you are arguing that, you are arguing that because leadership doesn’t care and programs still soap all of this is for nothing. I disagree - people know about the challenges now. And yep, the astro survey has been done for a while, and it has been ignored for a long time too. More visibility is in this forum than the last survey that showed half the respondents thought oversupply was the biggest threat to the field. I’d argue they should just drop the survey if the results are so inconsequential to them - it’s more insulting to be invested or believe in that process. The astro response article was insulting in tone and data.

So my view is, no not every post needs to be about the job market, but the job market is not good, opportunities are decreasing, the quality of career is worsening, and all the administrative changes both within and outside the field point to a negative long term trend line. Might as well keep it out there until something changes, or nothing changes. Which is also an option.
 
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