Male and interested in OB/Gyn: Experiences

[THP]

it’s far more difficult to schedule appointments with female OBs because their schedules are booked while their male co-workers’ schedules have plenty of openings.

As a male OB/GYN also finishing residency I can tell you I have had a job lined up for months, and my female colleagues have had a much harder time finding jobs. For the past 10 years men have really struggled finding jobs but I think that trend is changing somewhat. The reason is so many of the local groups keep getting burned by women they hire who then go part-time.

If you want to be a part-time OB/GYN so you can go to PTA meetings, that's fine, but just know that the only reason you are able to do it is because there is a male OB/GYN willing to take call and delivery babies at all hours of the night.

How's that for generalizations.

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[THP]

Considering that something like 80% of residents are now women, I think those anecdotes become more meaningful. You only need 20% of patients not to care and the men won't have any problems.

For everyone reading TaraTMD's little hissyfit she's vomiting on these boards, things are not this contentious in the "real world". In my experience patients and colleagues alike have been downright pleasant.

 

[Miss Alyssa]

Let's stop feeding the troll

 

[TaraTMD]

As a male OB/GYN also finishing residency I can tell you I have had a job lined up for months, and my female colleagues have had a much harder time finding jobs. For the past 10 years men have really struggled finding jobs but I think that trend is changing somewhat. The reason is so many of the local groups keep getting burned by women they hire who then go part-time.

If you want to be a part-time OB/GYN so you can go to PTA meetings, that's fine, but just know that the only reason you are able to do it is because there is a male OB/GYN willing to take call and delivery babies at all hours of the night.

How's that for generalizations.

That's an interesting theory you've got there: Practices not wanting to hire women out of concerns that they'll end up going part time because of maternity leave. And I suppose you think these women all decide to stay part-time for the remainder of their careers, right? Your argument is ridiculous, sweetie. And the change in trends you seem to think is taking place (because of your anecdotal experiences finding a job as well as what you perceive as difficulty for your female co-residents in finding jobs) is not taking place. There are practices aplenty advertising themselves as all-female, seeking out female obgyns. They do this because female obgyns attract more patients (and often better-paying patients as well), period. But dont take my word for it. Why don't you do a little field research yourself and call even 10 male/female practices and see which gender of doctor has openings in their schedule. Matenity leave....dream on, bub!

 

[TaraTMD]

Let's stop feeding the troll

Why don't you clarify for us all what defines a troll? As an OBGYN resident, I should have a right to post an opinion that isn't pleasing to you without having you accuse me of being a troll.

 

[TaraTMD]

So if you're not politically correct would you then agree because of physical gender differences women are less equipped to perform long, physically demanding surgeries such as those often seen in oncology then men?

How about women physicians getting paid less because they are more likely to take longer time off after having kids and are more likely to work less hours than their male counterparts?

I found both of the arguments above abhorrent, just like your opinion on male OB docs; but both of those are quite prevalent in medicine?

I'm not sure what personal vendetta you have against your male colleagues, perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

I have yet to be involved in an OBGYN surgery that involved heavy lifting. And women can stand next to an OR table as long as any man can. So your argument is pure bunk.

 

[davidjones]

Actually because of body habitus and various physiologic functions male surgeons on average have higher endurance than females surgeons, or that is the real world i.e patient, perspective.

And you really havent answered my question regarding urology and women in it. Since a very large portion of urology focuses on male heallth, should women e only allowed to practice urology with relation to pathology which crosses both genders. For the record no training program will only train people in only a select few procedures and no practice will higher a doc with an incomplete repertoire.

Or how about urology practices hiring only men and advertising as such? Do you consider that to be correct?

 

[TaraTMD]

Actually because of body habitus and various physiologic functions male surgeons on average have higher endurance than females surgeons, or that is the real world i.e patient, perspective.

And you really havent answered my question regarding urology and women in it. Since a very large portion of urology focuses on male heallth, should women e only allowed to practice urology with relation to pathology which crosses both genders. For the record no training program will only train people in only a select few procedures and no practice will higher a doc with an incomplete repertoire.

Or how about urology practices hiring only men and advertising as such? Do you consider that to be correct?

Body habitus and various "physiologic functions"? I'm really smelling some BS now! Why don't you clarify for us what those are that make us less capable than men of standing and operating for long periods. This ought to be good! As for your urology issue, I already addressed it. Urology is a specialty that deals with both genders. But I would feel exactly the same way about a female urologist specializing in men (e.g. ED and penile surgery) as I do about male OBGYNs. However, if I were a man, I'd feel more comfortable with a strange woman handling my penis than I'd be with a strange man sticking two fingers into my vagina. Let's face it, men in general have a stronger sex drive than women, and are at least somewhat more likely to see my nudity in an 'unprofessional' light. Don't even bother with the knee-jerk argumentative denial.

 

[TaraTMD]

Considering that something like 80% of residents are now women, I think those anecdotes become more meaningful. You only need 20% of patients not to care and the men won't have any problems.

For everyone reading TaraTMD's little hissyfit she's vomiting on these boards, things are not this contentious in the "real world". In my experience patients and colleagues alike have been downright pleasant.

Give it time. Give it time. But yes, there will always be men who simply can't figure out where they should and shouldn't be, and are willing to take advantage of female patients who don't contemplate the choice they actually have or who have lower standards of modesty and/or who don't appreciate having physicians who can empathize or even sympathize with them. Eventually though, residency programs will be run by women rather than the men they are run by now (who are specifically concerned with keeping men in the profession as well as bringing in capable residents). Then you will see the discrepancy in male vs female recruitment tip even further in our direction. And keep in mind that all of this is being driven by the public's preference. Those 20% of women who still see male OBGYNs didn't pick male OBGYNs over female OBGYNs. They see male OBGYNs because that's all that was available to them when they were ready for their first visit. What do you think will happen to male practitioners when there are plenty of female OBGYNs to go around? What woman in her right mind - even one who doesn't have much of a preference - is going to opt to see a man for her intimate, personal exams?

 

[pathstudent]

Give it time. Give it time. But yes, there will always be men who simply can't figure out where they should and shouldn't be, and are willing to take advantage of female patients who don't contemplate the choice they actually have or who have lower standards of modesty and/or who don't appreciate having physicians who can empathize or even sympathize with them. Eventually though, residency programs will be run by women rather than the men they are run by now (who are specifically concerned with keeping men in the profession as well as bringing in capable residents). Then you will see the discrepancy in male vs female recruitment tip even further in our direction. And keep in mind that all of this is being driven by the public's preference. Those 20% of women who still see male OBGYNs didn't pick male OBGYNs over female OBGYNs. They see male OBGYNs because that's all that was available to them when they were ready for their first visit. What do you think will happen to male practitioners when there are plenty of female OBGYNs to go around? What woman in her right mind - even one who doesn't have much of a preference - is going to opt to see a man for her intimate, personal exams?

It is worth pointing out that while you raise some possibly valid issues for some people, some of the best MFM, high-risk OBs and Gyn-Onc people I have met are men and also are regarded by their OB peers (male and female) as the doc you refer to if you have a patient with a complicated pregnancy or suspicious ovarian mass. So if you want a world with no male OB-Gyn trainees, then you are reducing the pool of potentially excellent physicians to treat women.

 

[THP]

And I suppose you think these women all decide to stay part-time for the remainder of their careers, right?

From what I've seen, yes, they stay part time. There has actually be a lot of discussion recently about women working fewer hours in multiple specialties. The problem will be even more compounded in OB when 80% are women.

There are practices aplenty advertising themselves as all-female, seeking out female obgyns. They do this because female obgyns attract more patients (and often better-paying patients as well), period.

That may be true out on the west coast where the communities are saturated with doctors. I don't think anyone is denying that most women prefer female OB/GYNs and that it is harder to get an appointment with women doctors. What's wrong with the patient having the option of being seen earlier if there is a man available because they have twice as many available time slots?

Where I live there are no all female OB/GYN groups. There was one about 3 years ago that was all female (about 4 docs) and it quickly imploded.

Its pretty obvious that, all things being equal in terms of personality and competency, the female ob/gyn will make more money than the male assuming they work the same number of hours.

 

[DrBowtie]

This thread is a pretty good summation of my OB/GYN rotation as a 3rd year medical student.

 

[TaraTMD]

It is worth pointing out that while you raise some possibly valid issues for some people, some of the best MFM, high-risk OBs and Gyn-Onc people I have met are men and also are regarded by their OB peers (male and female) as the doc you refer to if you have a patient with a complicated pregnancy or suspicious ovarian mass. So if you want a world with no male OB-Gyn trainees, then you are reducing the pool of potentially excellent physicians to treat women.

These "go-to" male OBGYNs you're talking about are the product of a time when men dominated medicine, including women's medicine. I think we can all agree that women are every bit as capable of becoming authorities in MFM, gyn-onc, and urogyn, once we have had as long of a foothold in medicine as men have. In that respect, men and women are completelyinterchangeable. Put more bluntly, if men were categorically cut out of the profession and replaced with women, the quality of the population pool making
up the OBGYN profession would be just as good. After all, these male go-to doctors didn't get there by distinguishing themselves from a diverse pool of male and female applicants. By cutting men out of OBGYN, the only thing to change will be the gender of the providers, and patients who don't have to be stuck with a male OB when they'd rather have a female.

 

[TaraTMD]

From what I've seen, yes, they stay part time. There has actually be a lot of discussion recently about women working fewer hours in multiple specialties. The problem will be even more compounded in OB when 80% are women.




That may be true out on the west coast where the communities are saturated with doctors. I don't think anyone is denying that most women prefer female OB/GYNs and that it is harder to get an appointment with women doctors. What's wrong with the patient having the option of being seen earlier if there is a man available because they have twice as many available time slots?

Where I live there are no all female OB/GYN groups. There was one about 3 years ago that was all female (about 4 docs) and it quickly imploded.

Its pretty obvious that, all things being equal in terms of personality and competency, the female ob/gyn will make more money than the male assuming they work the same number of hours.

What's wrong with a woman having the choice to see a male OBGYN if he can get her in sooner? Derrrrrr.....how about the fact that she's having to see a male OBGYN? That's the whole point. Many women would have to give up modesty and comfort in order to be seen promptly. If those male OBs were all female, then women wouldn't have to make that trade-off. That's my point here. Men in OBGYN offer absolutely nothing. The only thing they do is contaminate the profession with practitioners that make a lot of women uncomfortable. If I were a male, I'd have the decency to steer clear of a profession where a good portion of the population would rather not see me because I make them uncomfortable.

 

[pathstudent]

These "go-to" male OBGYNs you're talking about are the product of a time when men dominated medicine, including women's medicine. I think we can all agree that women are every bit as capable of becoming authorities in MFM, gyn-onc, and urogyn, once we have had as long of a foothold in medicine as men have. In that respect, men and women are completelyinterchangeable. Put more bluntly, if men were categorically cut out of the profession and replaced with women, the quality of the population pool making
up the OBGYN profession would be just as good. After all, these male go-to doctors didn't get there by distinguishing themselves from a diverse pool of male and female applicants. By cutting men out of OBGYN, the only thing to change will be the gender of the providers, and patients who don't have to be stuck with a male OB when they'd rather have a female.

Perhaps but in general when you reduce the number of applicants you reduce the number of possible outcomes and therFore are less likely to get the same level of residents.

Would pathology or radiology be just as good if you cut all men or women out of it?

But this is obviously a political issue for you so reason is irrelevant and I understand that.

I as a pathologist have had to do breast fnas and bone marrow biopsies on women. should all pathologists be women as one has to to examine their breasts and palpate the lesion before needling it or have them "drop their drawers" to get at the iliac crest?

Where do you draw the line?

 

[TaraTMD]

Perhaps but in general when you reduce the number of applicants you reduce the number of possible outcomes and therFore are less likely to get the same level of residents.

Would pathology or radiology be just as good if you cut all men or women out of it?

But this is obviously a political issue for you so reason is irrelevant and I understand that.

I as a pathologist have had to do breast fnas and bone marrow biopsies on women. should all pathologists be women as one has to to examine their breasts and palpate the lesion before needling it or have them "drop their drawers" to get at the iliac crest?

Where do you draw the line?

Pathology? No. It's not a competitive field so it benefits from having as large a number of applicants as possible. Radiology? Yes. Men, women, gay, straight, it draws the best medical students, so cutting out men wouldn't affect it much because there would still be hoards of outstanding students looking to go into it. OBGYN is much closer to rads than path in this respect. And considering the fact that it's tougher for women to get into, I'd say that OBGYN draws some very strong applicants.
So where do I draw the line? Easy. When it comes to getting into a profession where you deal almost exclusively with the opposite sex's private parts. With few minor exceptions, OBGYN is quite unique in that respect. I don't think of gastroenterologists or radiologists (or pathologists doing FNAs on breasts) as I do make OBGYNs. They don't specialize in the opposite sex's genitals and reproductive organs.

 

[2000 Man]

What's wrong with a woman having the choice to see a male OBGYN if he can get her in sooner? Derrrrrr.....how about the fact that she's having to see a male OBGYN? That's the whole point. Many women would have to give up modesty and comfort in order to be seen promptly. If those male OBs were all female, then women wouldn't have to make that trade-off. That's my point here. Men in OBGYN offer absolutely nothing. The only thing they do is contaminate the profession with practitioners that make a lot of women uncomfortable. If I were a male, I'd have the decency to steer clear of a profession where a good portion of the population would rather not see me because I make them uncomfortable.

You are so full of it. It is obvious that you are on here simply to push everyone's buttons. Congratulations, you did it.

Your comments and viewpoints are so extreme that they can't possibly be genuine, or if they are, they cannot be coming from a genuine caring, empathetic and compassionate physician.

Bravo! Thanks for increasing the traffic on the obgyn forum and getting everyone stirred up.

(now go back to your N.O.W. meeting and let the adults get back to business)

 

[DrBowtie]

What about Mammographers?

 

[TaraTMD]

What about Mammographers?

Anyone who hires a man to take mammograms obviously doesn't give a damn about patient modesty and comfort.

 

[DrBowtie]

Anyone who hires a man to take mammograms obviously doesn't give a damn about patient modesty and comfort.

I was referring to a mammo fellowship trained radiologist.

 

[TaraTMD]

I was referring to a mammo fellowship trained radiologist.

Reading radiographic images of breasts is hardly similar to sitting 12” from a woman’s sex organs a dozen times a day. I’ll admit, I have never heard of radiologists specializing in mammography. Now, if this involves performing US-guided needle biopsies of breasts, then yes I’d wonder what in the hell a man would be doing focusing his career on that. But that still isn’t as objectionable as a man going into OBGYN. Biopsying a breast is hardly the same thing as sitting in front of a naked woman spread eagle in stirrups.

 

[DrBowtie]

Reading radiographic images of breasts is hardly similar to sitting 12” from a woman’s sex organs a dozen times a day. I’ll admit, I have never heard of radiologists specializing in mammography. Now, if this involves performing US-guided needle biopsies of breasts, then yes I’d wonder what in the hell a man would be doing focusing his career on that. But that still isn’t as objectionable as a man going into OBGYN. Biopsying a breast is hardly the same thing as sitting in front of a naked woman spread eagle in stirrups.

For someone so interested in women's health, I'm shocked.

 

[TaraTMD]

You are so full of it. It is obvious that you are on here simply to push everyone's buttons. Congratulations, you did it.

Your comments and viewpoints are so extreme that they can't possibly be genuine, or if they are, they cannot be coming from a genuine caring, empathetic and compassionate physician.

Bravo! Thanks for increasing the traffic on the obgyn forum and getting everyone stirred up.

(now go back to your N.O.W. meeting and let the adults get back to business)

Calling my views extreme and inconsistent with a caring, empathetic, compassionate physician is just your knee-jerk reaction to what I'm saying. I can understand how you don't like hearing it, but when you stop to think about it you'll realize that what I'm saying is not only not extreme, it's mirrored by an increasing majority of women in the general population. That's the reality growing around you, so instead of getting angry every time someone mentions it, you'd better get accustomed to it.

 

[Danae00]

What do you think will happen to male practitioners when there are plenty of female OBGYNs to go around? What woman in her right mind - even one who doesn't have much of a preference - is going to opt to see a man for her intimate, personal exams?

I guess I'm not in my right mind then. I have never had a problem with having a male perform my pelvic exams. And yes, I had a choice and I stuck with the male doctor I knew that had a great beside manner. Maybe that's why I don't see pelvic exams as a big deal, because I have never felt uncomfortable during one.

"Intimate, personal exams"? You make it sound like a date, not a clinical exam.

 

[TaraTMD]

I guess I'm not in my right mind then. I have never had a problem with having a male perform my pelvic exams. And yes, I had a choice and I stuck with the male doctor I knew that had a great beside manner. Maybe that's why I don't see pelvic exams as a big deal, because I have never felt uncomfortable during one.

"Intimate, personal exams"? You make it sound like a date, not a clinical exam.

For all you know, it could be a date in your OBGYN’s mind. If you’re comfortable putting your legs in stirrups in front of a doctor who might be thinking about you that way, then knock yourself out!

 

[TaraTMD]

For someone so interested in women's health, I'm shocked.

I'm a third-year OBGYN resident, not an expert on the profession of radiology and all its specialties. I thought these biopsies went to IR.

 

[DrBowtie]

I'm a third-year OBGYN resident, not an expert on the profession of radiology and all its specialties. I thought these biopsies went to IR.

You are claiming to be a women's health expert, which I assumed included the breasts. Sorry for expecting you to know what is involved when you find a palpable breast mass and send them for a mammogram. What do you tell your patients?

 

[pathstudent]

I'm a third-year OBGYN resident, not an expert on the profession of radiology and all its specialties. I thought these biopsies went to IR.

I think you have been debunked. You don't need to be an expert on radiology. Anyone who knew anything about women's health or even a layperson whoever read anything in the newspaper or even any woman for that matter would know about the radiological subspecialty of mammography. Interventional radiology for a breast biopsy? You don't know anything about women's health. You are a male premed or med student at best. And if you are a third year resident and don't anything about breast cancer or breast examination or how a breast lump gets worked up than you are the worst women's health care provider I have ever heard of or alternately you go to the worst women's health program in the country.

 

[THP]

What's wrong with a woman having the choice to see a male OBGYN if he can get her in sooner? Derrrrrr.....how about the fact that she's having to see a male OBGYN? That's the whole point. Many women would have to give up modesty and comfort in order to be seen promptly. If those male OBs were all female, then women wouldn't have to make that trade-off. That's my point here. Men in OBGYN offer absolutely nothing. The only thing they do is contaminate the profession with practitioners that make a lot of women uncomfortable. If I were a male, I'd have the decency to steer clear of a profession where a good portion of the population would rather not see me because I make them uncomfortable.

Just to be clear. Do you agree that a male can be just as good a clinician as a female in OB/GYN? Dare I say even better in certain cases? If that is so, then you don't care about women's health, what you really care about is imposing your morality on women. This is a moral issue for you, not one of quality. Its disappointing that you have so little respect for women to make their own decisions about which doctors they want to see. If what you say is true then women will choose to only see women and the market will eliminate men from practice. You are really getting worked up about something that is not an issue.

 

[pathstudent]

Pathology? No. It's not a competitive field so it benefits from having as large a number of applicants as possible. Radiology? Yes. Men, women, gay, straight, it draws the best medical students, so cutting out men wouldn't affect it much because there would still be hoards of outstanding students looking to go into it. OBGYN is much closer to rads than path in this respect. And considering the fact that it's tougher for women to get into, I'd say that OBGYN draws some very strong applicants.
So where do I draw the line? Easy. When it comes to getting into a profession where you deal almost exclusively with the opposite sex's private parts. With few minor exceptions, OBGYN is quite unique in that respect. I don't think of gastroenterologists or radiologists (or pathologists doing FNAs on breasts) as I do make OBGYNs. They don't specialize in the opposite sex's genitals and reproductive organs.

I hate to have to go here but I graduated first in my class and cracked 265 on step 1, was president of aoa and my medical school class for two of the four years and I published in basic science journals while in med school. I think if I went into ob Instead od pathology i would have knocked out a lesser candidate, perhaps you and made the field slightly better even if it was a minute amount.

 

[TaraTMD]

I think you have been debunked. You don't need to be an expert on radiology. Anyone who knew anything about women's health or even a layperson whoever read anything in the newspaper or even any woman for that matter would know about the radiological subspecialty of mammography. Interventional radiology for a breast biopsy? You don't know anything about women's health. You are a male premed or med student at best. And if you are a third year resident and don't anything about breast cancer or breast examination or how a breast lump gets worked up than you are the worst women's health care provider I have ever heard of or alternately you go to the worst women's health program in the country.

I see how this works. Any minor fact-oid I don't know means I expose myself as a poser. Did I say I didn't know how breast cancer is worked up? All I claimed was that I was not aware that "mammography" was a distinct, fellowship-trained specialty within radiology. I thought that IR-trained radiologists performs these procedures, as they do in my hospital. And yes, IR does perform US-guided breast biopsies. But don't take my word for it. If there's a radiology forum on this site, perhaps you can go there and ask for yourself. Or ask the IR folks at your hospital if they do. As for my patients, I simply tell them the radiologist is going to use an ultrasound machine to see the mass and take a small sample of it. According to you, I should be more specific next time and tell them "your fellowship-trained breast imaging/biopsying specialist radiologist" will perform your US-guided breast biopsy. I suppose you'd expect me to, over the course of the first two and a half years of my residency, follow my breast bx patients as they have their biopsies performed, to see how they're done and who specifically does them. And how on Earth are you making the claim that I'm male? Half the people here think I'm a raging feminist.

 

[TaraTMD]

I hate to have to go here but I graduated first in my class and cracked 265 on step 1, was president of aoa and my medical school class for two of the four years and I published in basic science journals while in med school. I think if I went into ob Instead od pathology i would have knocked out a lesser candidate, perhaps you and made the field slightly better even if it was a minute amount.

That’s why path is so competitive, that so many path residency positions are filled with foreign graduates, right? I’m not trying to berate what pathologists do. In fact, I think they’re bar-none the most knowledgeable of all physicians. But despite your exceptional medical school career, pathology is not a competitive field. You know that.
Sure, you’d have possibly knocked me out of a residency position, but with your numbers, you might even be able to say that about me if I were a derm resident.

 

[Global Disrobal]

After the many years I've spent on SDN, it truly saddens me that such venomous garbage manages to garner so much attention especially during such an important time (interview season).

Please do us all a favor, and do not respond to this troll's posts in hopes that he/she goes away...

Happy Holidays everyone!

Ps I can't wait to share this thread with my female urology, male breast surgery colleagues...

 

[TaraTMD]

Just to be clear. Do you agree that a male can be just as good a clinician as a female in OB/GYN? Dare I say even better in certain cases? If that is so, then you don't care about women's health, what you really care about is imposing your morality on women. This is a moral issue for you, not one of quality. Its disappointing that you have so little respect for women to make their own decisions about which doctors they want to see. If what you say is true then women will choose to only see women and the market will eliminate men from practice. You are really getting worked up about something that is not an issue.

Generally, no. I don't think men can be as good clinicians in OBGYN as women can. Nothing in the world can take the place of personal experience when it comes to dealing with health problems. If I were a urologist, I could read about erectile dysfunction day and night for years, but would never begin to understand what it's like deal with it, neither from a physical standpoint nor an emotional one. I don't even have a penis to help me understand what an erection is like. From the standpoint of simply comprehending the patient's problem to empathizing and sympathizing, there just is no substitute for experience. True, not all female OBs have had fibroids, menorrhagia, or dealt with ovarian torsion, but at very least they have the same organs and have some concept of what's going on beyond what a man reads in a text and hears from patients. On a grander scale, does this make a major difference? Probably not, because there are widely-accepted ‘protocols' for how we treat a lot of problems. But like most women out there, I recognize the value of seeing a physician who has far more in common with me. I also recognize the value of seeing a physician who is far less likely to view my examination in a non-professional light. Anyway, I'm awfully curious to see which "certain cases" you think make men better clinicians. I could use a good laugh.
I'm not trying to impose my morals on women. I'm not saying that men should be banned from OBGYN. If there are 100 million women in the U.S. who are of the age where they see OBGYNs for their care and there are a few thousand of them who specifically want to see male OBs, then fine. By all means, they should have their way. But I think that men should be more aware of the fact that they are increasingly unwelcome by the very patients that they seek to treat, that their continued presence in the field is becoming less and less necessary as female OBGYNs are becoming more available, and that the need for women in the field is increasing at fever pitch. I think most men do realize this, but like I've said in previous posts, there are still a heck of a lot of men who simply don't give a shyt about patient preferences and want to go into OBGYN simply because they think it's a neat-o. I have a problem with men like that.
Finally, not that I care what you think really, but I don't go around in my hospital bad-mouthing male OBGYNs to patients. Come to think of it, there's really no need to. I'm not worked up about this issue. I thought this was a forum where people could shoot the shyt and have some in-depth discussions and even arguments about contentious issues.

 

[davidjones]

I’m a third-year OBGYN resident, not an expert on the profession of radiology and all its specialties. I thought these biopsies went to IR.

Sometimes IR does breast procedures but mostly it's people who do a mammography fellowship which also involves talking to every single patient often when they are in a vulnerable position. The majority of pioneers in the field and the biggest advocates for breast health have been men.

 

[pathstudent]

That's why path is so competitive, that so many path residency positions are filled with foreign graduates, right? I'm not trying to berate what pathologists do. In fact, I think they're bar-none the most knowledgeable of all physicians. But despite your exceptional medical school career, pathology is not a competitive field. You know that.
Sure, you'd have possibly knocked me out of a residency position, but with your numbers, you might even be able to say that about me if I were a derm resident.

Well I embellish my numbers and accomplishments and actually none of that is true, but it could be true. And yes pathology is probably the least competitive of all specialties with only about 300 amg applicants for about 500 residency slots.

Here is an interesting article written by a law professor making the case for making female gender a requisite for being an Obgyn. It is 37 pages long but is a quick read. http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/...w2gzmgqYD0dABasAk0g#search="case male ob-gyn"

I am starting to come around to Tara's side. While I think her comments about male obgyns are inflammatory and false, the above article makes a strong case for restricting ob-gyn residents for women only and not being legally descriminatory.

 

[wholeheartedly]

OP, don't think this is representative of the field. There are definitely some people who post on here with strong opinions on this (I remember one patient who came on here violently protesting men in obgyn and kept coming back under different user names to bump the threads even after a year or more had gone by. Seemed she'd had some very traumatic experience not related to docs and was afraid of all men in general).

Since I'm not in the field yet, I can't speak to residency or practice dynamics. I can say that I have about 2/3 of my friends, mid-late twenties, that could care less who does their exams because the quality of the doctor is more important than the docs gender. For the other 1/3 the discussion hasn't come up. In my n=7 as a patient, the three male doctors were far more gentle than the women. The women seemed to think that since these exams were no big deal for them to have done on them (after years of experiencing them and popping out a few kids), that they wouldn't be a big deal for me (none of that). The men were more concerned about doing a good job because they don't have those parts and don't know what it feels like and were more conscious of being gentle. It was a tad weird to have a male doc the first time, but I actually requested the male doc again til I moved, not because it was the lesser of the evils (there were other female docs I could have tried going to) but because I liked working with him. He was respectful, knowledgable, didn't make me uncomfortable, and gentle.

By TaraMD's arguments you'd wind up having only docs who knew what is was like to have cancer treat cancer patients, or amputee docs treat vets who've lost limbs in bomb attacks. A male resident with two kids might be in a better position to relate to woman going through labor than a female resident who doesn't have kids. Or a man who's wife had complications giving birth. That might be why he picked the specialty. People draw on all kinds of life experiences to be able to relate effectively with patients.

I agree patients should have the right to choose whoever they feel comfortable, but I don't think this discussion represents the average perspective. I don't think men who have a genuine interest in the field should be discouraged.

Oh, and I've had several physician ObGyn friends mention that there are quite a few lesbians in the field. Apparently lesbians like dealing with women's issues, advocacy, and all that and gravitate towards ObGyn as a result.

 

[residencycoord]

Global Disrobal - Thank you very much for trying to put a stop to this tirade of negativity from someone I am thrilled who is not a resident in my program. I have never in my life (I have dealt with many residents over the years) have heard or read such a display of nastiness, especially during this time of year.

 

[FutureDoc734]

You are so full of it. It is obvious that you are on here simply to push everyone's buttons. Congratulations, you did it.

Your comments and viewpoints are so extreme that they can't possibly be genuine, or if they are, they cannot be coming from a genuine caring, empathetic and compassionate physician.

Bravo! Thanks for increasing the traffic on the obgyn forum and getting everyone stirred up.

(now go back to your N.O.W. meeting and let the adults get back to business)

Can I just say, AMEN!

 

[TaraTMD]

Sometimes IR does breast procedures but mostly it's people who do a mammography fellowship which also involves talking to every single patient often when they are in a vulnerable position. The majority of pioneers in the field and the biggest advocates for breast health have been men.

The majority of pioneers in every field of medicine have been men. They've had for a very long time a much stronger foothold in medicine. You're failing to recognize that their contributions to medicine (including women's medicine) is a function of their tenure in medicine, and not their gender.

 

[Unknown125432]

Wow Tara you have a really high opinion of yourself. The fact that you believe most (if not all) male OB's get some sort of cheap thrill by performing a pelvic exam is quite objectionable.

Your argument that men should stay out of OB because it is a field that only deals with women is insane. No one "enjoys" getting a genital exam. As a male should we only request a male FM doctor perform hernia or prostate checks? Are Psychiatrists all perverts because they discuss intimate things with the patients like sexual paraphilias? Next you would say Pediatricians are pedophiles because they look at genitals all day long. I don't know where you are getting this viewpoint that there is so much sexuality surrounding clinical exams.


We all might encounter a patient we would consider attractive, but you know there is something very different about seeing a patient in a hospital or a doctor's office. There are things you don't say in a clinical setting that you might in a social setting or things you would never do that you might in a social setting (forgetting as well that a great majority are committed to SO anyway). This is what being a professional is all about. People always joke about how Laywers, Insurance salesmen, Care Salesmen, etc are sleaze bags. Well in contrast Physicians are always listed in the top 3 most respected professions in any society poll. Why? Because we are trusted with dealing with the most sensitive, private and intimate details of a patient's life and this is not just limited to OB. The vast majority of Physicians maintain this respect.

You ask what could a male OB bring to the table? Well as other posters have pointed out perhaps a male and his partner struggled with infertility. Maybe his sister died of Ovarian Cancer. Maybe it was a toss up between Urology and OB, but matching into OB is several orders of magnitude easier to match into. When you practice Reproductive Endocrinology, GYN Onc, etc you are really getting away from this idea of just doing genital exams all day long. A male who went through an infertility work up and struggled to have children is especially qualified to work in that field. And there is certainly nothing sexy about Ovarian/Uterine/Cervical Cancer.

When my wife was pregnant we went to a practice with a male and a female OB. Both of them were excellent and my wife had no issue whatsoever seeing the male OB. He was nothing but respectful and offered wonderful care. In fact he seemed way more empathetic and understanding than the female OB (although she was still very good). I really think some women pick up on that. Especially considering a lot of female OB's fall into that stereotype of being Type A, ultra-intense, non-empathetic, etc. But let's face it, that describes most surgeons and doctors in general are over-achievers. So when a women comes in with menometrohagia, etc I could see the female OB having the attitude of saying "Just suck it up".

Are you sure you are an OB resident? It seems unlikely given your over-sexualization of the clinical exam. When I was on OB and I saw a case of BV or saw a pregnant, stressed out woman in labor screaming in pain as she is crowning and I see a nice mixture of blood, amniotic fluid, urine and fecal matter, the last thing that goes through my mind is "Wow this is so hot".

Furthermore you assumption that is an only female specialty is somewhat inaccurate. GYN, sure. But as OB you have some responsibility to the father. As a male I appreciated being talked and acknowledged by the OB doc and LD nurses. Secondly what about your responsibility to the fetus? Now of course as soon as the baby comes out if there is a problem he/she goes right to the Pediatrician. However while the baby is in utero it is your responsibility and clearly half of them are male. If you can get sued for a bad outcome of the baby in utero, in my opinion that's your patient. When my son was born it was the OB that performed the circumcision so clearly there is some overlap b/w Peds and OB.

I had a number of male classmates develop an interest in OB during their rotation. All of them said the cool thing about OB is being able to share in the birth of a child. That is an amazing thing to be a part of and from what I have seen it's what most OB's are really passionate about. And I am sorry, sharing in the birth of a child is not something only females have monopoly on. BTW, none of my male colleagues said they wanted to do OB because they were super excited about looking at vaginas all day.

I am not sure where you developed this hatred for men, but it is insane in this day and age for you to be pushing an agenda of segregation. Diversity in any field is always better and if you really cared about women's health you wouldn't want to eliminate an entire pool of qualified candidates. I know deep down you believe woman are smarter and make better docs (in all fields), but that simply is not true. Men and women are equal in their abilities and every specialty should have access to the best applicant. If you get your way though, one saving grace is that male med students can skip the OB rotation J

 

[berger911]

i agree. one huge advantage of being a guy is being objective in the delivery of care. also, everyone at my medical school loved their OBGYN rotation. however, most of the men despite loving the mix of surgery and medicine, just did not feel comfortable performing pelvic or speculum exams. as a matter of fact, most were repulsed by it. i am not sure why? boys in this age are being exposed to females at a much earlier age and pop-culture today is much more sexually liberal than it was centuries ago. i just think western culture is changing and males don't have as much responsibility at a young age as they did years ago and consequently are less mature (just my opinion! don't yell at me!) to say men go into OBGYN for the sexual thrill is absurd. most patients have a BMI > 30 and depending on where you are, many will be undeserved and have poor health maintenance. OBGYN also doesn't have the level of prestige a lot of guys are seeking. males these days have much bigger egos and worry a lot more about appearance than men 20 years ago. being an OBGYN does not sound nearly as cool as being an ENT, orthopod, or urologist.

i also don't think men are taking jobs away from us women, either. i think that because they are underrepresented in the field, they are treated as "minorities." why would any program not choose an equally qualified male over a female when they can bring diversity to the program? it's common sense. i sure would, just as i would take an equally qualified female who is a Spanish speaker over an English speaking only candidate. i don't think a lot of programs are lowering the bar for any males, especially the prestigious programs.

 

[pathstudent]

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/...w2gzmgqYD0dABasAk0g#search="case male ob-gyn"

I should say (for those that won't read it) that this article doesn't support categorically excluding men from OB-GYN residency but supports the idea that being a woman is a "bona fide occupational qualification" for gynecologists and therefore protects practices that have been sued by male OBs who have been fired recently by their practices and replaced by women.

But given that academic and community based residency programs are in competition with women-only private practices, it could force them to do away with male residents if women-only practices are more popular and they would be legally protected by this argument (if viewed as such by a judge).

Interesting stuff.

 

[THP]

Generally, no. I don’t think men can be as good clinicians in OBGYN as women can. Nothing in the world can take the place of personal experience when it comes to dealing with health problems.

Ummm. . . how about skill? There is absolutely no reason why you have to have experienced a disease in order to treat it. You do not have to have a penis to effectively treat erectile dysfunction, its non-nonsensical to think that to you do. You even go on to contradict yourself in this post by listing a bunch of diseases that you've never had yet treat effectively.

Clinicians exist on a spectrum and if you think that the worst female gyn is better than the best male you are so deluded there is no way to have a conversation.

 

[THP]

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/...w2gzmgqYD0dABasAk0g#search="case male ob-gyn"

I should say (for those that won't read it) that this article doesn't support categorically excluding men from OB-GYN residency but supports the idea that being a woman is a "bona fide occupational qualification" for gynecologists and therefore protects practices that have been sued by male OBs who have been fired recently by their practices and replaced by women.

But given that academic and community based residency programs are in competition with women-only private practices, it could force them to do away with male residents if women-only practices are more popular and they would be legally protected by this argument (if viewed as such by a judge).

Interesting stuff.

I didn't read the article but I think I have seen it before. We all sign contracts where we can be released without cause, and if because of competition the market determines that no men are needed in a particular area I don't have a problem with that. I certainly don't thinks its grounds for a law suit.

I disagree that being female is a "qualification". You are qualified because you have completed and accredited residency and passed your boards.

I think that if you are good at what you do, treat people with respect, and do the right thing for your patient you will have a job somewhere.

 

[TaraTMD]

Ummm. . . how about skill? There is absolutely no reason why you have to have experienced a disease in order to treat it. You do not have to have a penis to effectively treat erectile dysfunction, its non-nonsensical to think that to you do. You even go on to contradict yourself in this post by listing a bunch of diseases that you've never had yet treat effectively.

Clinicians exist on a spectrum and if you think that the worst female gyn is better than the best male you are so deluded there is no way to have a conversation.

That's your argument? That the worst female OB isn't better than the best male? What about the worst male OBs and the best female OBs? Do they not exist in your thought process? There are outstanding clinicians, average clinicians, and sub-par physicians of both genders. The "skill" to which you refer can be found equally in male and female OBGYNs. So all things equal, women clearly choose the clinician that has more in common with them and is less likely to have any unprofessional interest in their nudity. Why is that logic so objectionable to you?

 

[guydudcl371]

. And how on Earth are you making the claim that I’m male? Half the people here think I’m a raging feminist.

Further proof that you are completely ignorant and just stirring up drama...You do not have to be a female to be a feminist...and the notion of "raging feminist" is idiotic. Sorry this important conversation got hijacked OP, I think we should all just ignore this individual and move on.

 

[THP]

That's your argument? That the worst female OB isn't better than the best male? What about the worst male OBs and the best female OBs? Do they not exist in your thought process? There are outstanding clinicians, average clinicians, and sub-par physicians of both genders. The "skill" to which you refer can be found equally in male and female OBGYNs. So all things equal, women clearly choose the clinician that has more in common with them and is less likely to have any unprofessional interest in their nudity. Why is that logic so objectionable to you?

Ok, thank you for saying the complete opposite of your previous post. I asked you "Do you think men can be as good of clinicians as women in OB/GYN?" and you responded, "Generally no. I don't think men can be as good clinicians in OB/GYN as women can." You are free to continue arguing with yourself.

So now apparently there can be outstanding clinicians of both genders so why do you care if a woman goes to see a male doctor. I wouldn't say an excellent clinician has an unprofessional interest in their nudity. You've already said you don't want to legally bar men from entering the field. Your hysteria is warping your ability to think.

 

[TaraTMD]

Ok, thank you for saying the complete opposite of your previous post. I asked you "Do you think men can be as good of clinicians as women in OB/GYN?" and you responded, "Generally no. I don't think men can be as good clinicians in OB/GYN as women can." You are free to continue arguing with yourself.

So now apparently there can be outstanding clinicians of both genders so why do you care if a woman goes to see a male doctor. I wouldn't say an excellent clinician has an unprofessional interest in their nudity. You've already said you don't want to legally bar men from entering the field. Your hysteria is warping your ability to think.

Skill is one thing. Empathy and having some greater understanding of your patients' conditions is another. Female OBs have skill. But we also have the same anatomy, same. health problems, and same experiences as our patients, by and large. Id say that at least gives us the opportunity to be better clinicians. For you to deny the relevance of this is sheer stupidity, especially considering the fact that it's one of the main reasons men are being abruptly squeezed out of obstetrics and gynecology after a century of dominating it.

 

[deleted432032]

Wow, this thread turned completely delusional.

I feel sorry for everyone that has to read this garbage. However, some of the responses to TaraTMD's rants and tantrums I found to be a good read.