liberty medical school <facepalm>

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Linda Loma actually makes you sign an asinine contract barring you from sin. Ha
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Serenade, I like you well enough, but you really don't like RVU, and have always been biased against it. Our board scores are strong, and despite what you guys think, our matches have been strong... You're comments otherwise are really coming from a basis of no information. People in our school value OMM, despite all of this ranting about it, and are choosing DO residencies that many consider "bad" because they aren't MD residencies, but the fact is, people wanted to go to them for whatever their reasons were. A lot of them it was to be in a DO residency in a certain location... Liberty is going to have growing pains, they are going to have to be accredited, their students will have to pass the boards, if they don't meet these things they will lose accreditation, and they will close. It just is what it is. Let the chips fall where they may, and if you don't want to go there, don't apply. It's that simple. Most of the doctors I know, don't really care about one school or the next, they care about your step 1 score. They don't care if you do 100% of your studying on your own, they care that you passed, and generally did well (210-usmle or higher). Beyond that, I have seen very little DO bias, very little RVU bias, and I doubt I will hear any Liberty bias...
 
sb247 said:
So your opinion is that although there are multiple religiously associated med schools and centuries of religious physicians with commendable performance that somehow Liberty will destroy us all?
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Yes, because none of the other religious schools so openly preaches creationism, which has no place in modern science. If a pseudoscience-promoting-institution teaching subjects as scientific as medicine is okay with you, you probably won't mind going to med school at Hogwarts school of witchcraft/ alchemy or something, right? (may be an extreme example, but oh well)

You see how bad this can make osteopathic medicine look?

How many times do i have to repeat myself? and why do you always make it sound like that I am against religion/ christianity?
 
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I'm ok with RVU now. But lets be honest, the matches so far including last year are mediocre. But it is what you make of it I suppose.
Regardless, I wouldn't compare RVU to liberty.
 
sb247 said:
. You haven't needed any assistance to look biased against religion
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Other schools are religious but without directly and very openly promote creationism. Did you see me bash Creighton? Baylor?

Did I say ANYTHING AT ALL about Jesus, Allah, Shiva or Buddah... how am I biased against religion?
 
serenade said:
And honestly Virginia has a DO school with extremely low stats, VCOM.
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You gotta love pre-meds who have no idea what they're talking about.

VCOM's cumulative and science undergrad GPA averages are above the national mean for DO schools. COMLEX I and II average scores for the 2013 class were 20 points above the national mean for DO schools. 100% ACGME match rate for this year's graduating class, and they're going to damn strong residency programs at that.

Yep, sounds like a "DO school with extremely low stats" to me.
 
I was referring to the 25 average mcat. In what context could you ever begin to assume I was speaking in terms of comlex pass and boards? Check your self bud.
 
Didierdrogba said:
Other schools are religious but without directly and very openly promote creationism. Did you see me bash Creighton? Baylor?

Did I say ANYTHING AT ALL about Jesus, Allah, Shiva or Buddah... how am I biased against religion?
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So it's ok to believe something as long as they don't admit it too loud? Loma Linda is SDA and they believe creation. Campbell is baptist (creation) and catholics also believe in creation. It literally has zero effect on someone's ability to practice medicine. It does not effect patients at all. You just don't want anyone you think is questionable to you (Falwell and people you associate with him) to be remotely associated with the very expensive piece of paper that's going to be on your wall.

Simple question, does my belief in the Biblical account of creation hinder my ability to skillfully treat patients?
 
I cannot really say much about Liberty's religious background because I think it is a rather large assumption to think Liberty will teach creationism in its curriculum. However, it's pretty unsettling that the medical school is being partially funded by tobacco companies and that students living in tobacco communities receive a discount in tuition.
 
sb247 said:
So it's ok to believe something as long as they don't admit it too loud? Loma Linda is SDA and they believe creation. Campbell is baptist (creation) and catholics also believe in creation. It literally has zero effect on someone's ability to practice medicine. It does not effect patients at all. You just don't want anyone you think is questionable to you (Falwell and people you associate with him) to be remotely associated with the very expensive piece of paper that's going to be on your wall.

Simple question, does my belief in the Biblical account of creation hinder my ability to skillfully treat patients?
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:thumbdown:

You can't seem to understand anything I said earlier can you? Those universities you just mentioned do not ostentatiously preach creationism, and at the very least they don't gain fame nationally due to teaching creationism, homophobia, or banning democrat student organizations


And stop making assumptions about me being Christian bashing or thinking Christians make inadaquate doctors. Not once did I say that.



Allow me to quote someone from sdn years ago commenting on creationism.

doctorFred said:
with all due respect, i find it utterly absurd. i have always felt that you cannot pick and choose which parts of science you like and which parts you don't like, because it's all derived from the same scientific method, including the theory of evolution.

........

the idea of a scientific institute teaching creationism to students rubs me the wrong way. there is nothing scientific about creationism, or it's pseudo-science counterpart, intelligent design, because science demands testable predictions and they offer none.
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sb247 said:
So it's ok to believe something as long as they don't admit it too loud? Loma Linda is SDA and they believe creation. Campbell is baptist (creation) and catholics also believe in creation. It literally has zero effect on someone's ability to practice medicine. It does not effect patients at all. You just don't want anyone you think is questionable to you (Falwell and people you associate with him) to be remotely associated with the very expensive piece of paper that's going to be on your wall.


Simple question, does my belief in the Biblical account of creation hinder my ability to skillfully treat patients?
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Like I said, you're free to believe what you want. But I personally am afraid of someone who puts the bible above reason as their moral guidance.
But regardless, as long as you play by the ethical standards and respect a person's autonomy then I don't care.
 
Didierdrogba said:
Their MCAT average is only 25... that's pretty damn low

disclaimer: im not implying that people at VCOM are potentially bad doctors.
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I would be willing to bet that many OMS's here have an MCAT less than or equal to 25. The standards you're trying to raise are precisely the reason many students here are AMG's instead of Caribbean grads.
 
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serenade said:
I was referring to the 25 average mcat. In what context could you ever begin to assume I was speaking in terms of comlex pass and boards? Check your self bud.
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So, one part of the admissions criteria, which isn't far off from the national DO MCAT average, is what qualifies as "extremely low stats" by your reasoning. Got it.

And yes, it's relevant because the MCAT is used as a predictor for board exam performance. Clearly, the "extremely low" MCAT average at VCOM didn't result in an abysmal pass rate. It's so typical of a pre-med to place way too much value on MCAT and GPA averages when evaluating the quality of a medical school.
 
Hexodus said:
So, one part of the admissions criteria, which isn't far off from the national DO MCAT average, is what qualifies as "extremely low stats" by your reasoning. Got it.

And yes, it's relevant because the MCAT is used as a predictor for board exam performance. Clearly, the "extremely low" MCAT average at VCOM didn't result in an abysmal pass rate. It's so typical of a pre-med to place way too much value on MCAT and GPA averages when evaluating the quality of a medical school.
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A poor predictor, you're missing my entire point. If VCOM an established school is attracting a 25 average, what do you think Liberty will? My point is that they will attract people who wouldn't even be able to dream about getting into VCOM.

I did not mean to take a swing at VCOM. It's established and a strong school.
 
serenade said:
A poor predictor, you're missing my entire point. If VCOM an established school is attracting a 25 average, what do you think Liberty will? My point is that they will attract people who wouldn't even be able to dream about getting into VCOM.

I did not mean to take a swing at VCOM. It's established and a strong school.
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Fair enough. VCOM tries to be more forgiving of a lower MCAT score, and is less so in other areas of the app.

As for Liberty, their undergrad students come from all over the country, similar to BYU. Unlike VCOM, which focuses almost exclusively on Appalachian states, Virginia, and North Carolina, I think Liberty will have a wider recruiting area. As a result, there will be less overlap in VCOM and Liberty apps than you may think.
 
Mosonik said:
The location mostly. I question the motive of the school just because it is in a densely populated state in terms of existing medical programs. And VCOM is less than 100 miles away.
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An interesting point someone else made on the other Liberty thread.

Hexodus said:
Fair enough. VCOM tries to be more forgiving of a lower MCAT score, and is less so in other areas of the app.

As for Liberty, their undergrad students come from all over the country, similar to BYU. Unlike VCOM, which focuses almost exclusively on Appalachian states, Virginia, and North Carolina, I think Liberty will have a wider recruiting area. As a result, there will be less overlap in VCOM and Liberty apps than you may think.
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sb247 said:
So it's ok to believe something as long as they don't admit it too loud?
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Well, yes if you believe in something that is considered laughable by the rest of the scientific community in the US and around the world, you better be quiet about it, unlike what Liberty has done in the past
 
Hexodus said:
Fair enough. VCOM tries to be more forgiving of a lower MCAT score, and is less so in other areas of the app.

As for Liberty, their undergrad students come from all over the country, similar to BYU. Unlike VCOM, which focuses almost exclusively on Appalachian states, Virginia, and North Carolina, I think Liberty will have a wider recruiting area. As a result, there will be less overlap in VCOM and Liberty apps than you may think.
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yes. VCOM puts HUGE weight on the interview (and GPA).

however, right now there are far more than enough DO seats for qualified applicants. Schools are already admitting down to around the ~3.0/3.0/23 range. Opening another school will only further dilute the quality of incoming classes, a point already belabored.
 
user3 said:
yes. VCOM puts HUGE weight on the interview (and GPA).

however, right now there are far more than enough DO seats for qualified applicants. Schools are already admitting down to around the ~3.0/3.0/23 range. Opening another school will only further dilute the quality of incoming classes, a point already belabored.
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link or it didn't happen. I'd rather believe you just made those numbers up.
 
Didierdrogba said:
link or it didn't happen. I'd rather believe you just made those numbers up.
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I have pored through the underdog thread, school specific threads, and mdapplicants and seen many people in the low 3.0 range + 23-24 get into newer schools.
 
user3 said:
I have pored through the underdog thread, school specific threads, and mdapplicants and seen many people in the low 3.0 range + 23-24 get into newer schools.
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hopefully they're just under dogs ... please...
 
The neuroscience prof they're getting doesn't believe in evolution... Not sure how you have a phd in neuro & believe we're created but whatevs not my problem...
 
NurWollen said:
Interesting article about Loma Linda:

http://www.adventistreview.org/arti...5/15-cn-llu-s-earth-and-biology-dept-turns-50
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...i am really surprised nobody has brought up the Baby Fae case yet.

i will just leave this right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Fae


TL; DR: surgeon at Loma Linda Medical Center transplants a baboon heart into a baby which eventually lead to the baby's death. even though there was a compatible human heart available for baby fae, the surgeon still used the baboon heart. when questioned as to why the surgeon used a baboon heart instead of a much more evolutionary compatible human heart, the surgeon replied, "Er, I find that difficult to answer. You see, I don't believe in evolution."
 
NurWollen said:
There are actually quite a few people who see that as a plus. It's not asinine, it's just rooted in a different worldview than your own.
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I'm sure some people also believe footbinding is a plus.
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
The neuroscience prof they're getting doesn't believe in evolution... Not sure how you have a phd in neuro & believe we're created but whatevs not my problem...
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Genuinely speaking I haven't a solid clue. The entire reason I am so hardcore pro-evolution is because of neuroscience, you literally cannot connect two dots in neuroscience without using evolution as a track.
 
SurgeDO said:
...i am really surprised nobody has brought up the Baby Fae case yet.

i will just leave this right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Fae


TL; DR: surgeon at Loma Linda Medical Center transplants a baboon heart into a baby which eventually lead to the baby's death. even though there was a compatible human heart available for baby fae, the surgeon still used the baboon heart. when questioned as to why the surgeon used a baboon heart instead of a much more evolutionary compatible human heart, the surgeon replied, "Er, I find that difficult to answer. You see, I don't believe in evolution."
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I tried to find more about the case, it appears there might have been finances involved as the mother was uninsured and the baboon heart was being transplanted for free. The heart also apparently doubled the life expectency of baby fae and led to bailey being quite a prolific infant transplant sugeon. http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...-center-marks-25-year-milestone-64249192.html
 
sb247 said:
Haha, now serenade and dierdogba will think the MD degree is tainted too..... us silly creationists ruin everything ;)
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Sigh, Linda Loma at least has enormous hospitals and biomedical research. Liberty is incomparable.

Regardless, Maintain whatever beliefs you wish that appease your narrative of the world that was basically copied from the Babylonian and Egyptian creation myths. If it helps you sleep at night, great.
 
I like your sense of humor serenade, I think we would be friends in real life
 
To be honest I'm not even surprised anymore. Accrediting RVU was the first big red flag, and it should of been stopped then and there. Anything COCA does after proves that they are self-$$$-interested, and that they are ass-backwards. The DO profession is going downhill, and fast. Just you wait. Soon there will be online DO programs, just like nursing schools have. Everyone says "that will never happen!" Just wait and see, it's gonna happen. Devry or University of Pheonix offering online DO programs. Just goes to show, yet again, why MD schools are superior in every way.
 
Didierdrogba said:
hopefully they're just under dogs ... please...
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Nope. It's true. Newer schools have VERY low stats in terms of accepted students. The facts are all on the AOA website or something like that.
 
sb247 said:
Haha, now serenade and dierdogba will think the MD degree is tainted too..... us silly creationists ruin everything ;)
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This is an instance where irrationality directly trumps medical ethics... not good.
 
calvinhobbes said:
To be honest I'm not even surprised anymore. Accrediting RVU was the first big red flag, and it should of been stopped then and there. Anything COCA does after proves that they are self-$$$-interested, and that they are ass-backwards. The DO profession is going downhill, and fast. Just you wait. Soon there will be online DO programs, just like nursing schools have. Everyone says "that will never happen!" Just wait and see, it's gonna happen. Devry or University of Pheonix offering online DO programs. Just goes to show, yet again, why MD schools are superior in every way.
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The DO profession as it stands now is great, but if I knew this much about COCA and how they would keep accrediting controversial schools, I would probably do an SMP and try to get into an MD school. Last thing I want is to have my degree lose its value.
 
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calvinhobbes said:
To be honest I'm not even surprised anymore. Accrediting RVU was the first big red flag, and it should of been stopped then and there. Anything COCA does after proves that they are self-$$$-interested, and that they are ass-backwards. The DO profession is going downhill, and fast. Just you wait. Soon there will be online DO programs, just like nursing schools have. Everyone says "that will never happen!" Just wait and see, it's gonna happen. Devry or University of Pheonix offering online DO programs. Just goes to show, yet again, why MD schools are superior in every way.
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DeVry owns 2 MD schools actually. Ross and AUC. Though they don't offer online courses, I don't see how that would differ from the home-based learning that most of us do anyway.
 
Didierdrogba said:
The DO profession as it stands now is great, but if I knew this much about COCA and how they would keep accrediting controversial schools, I would probably do an SMP and try to get into an MD school. Last thing I want is to have my degree lose its value.
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At this point, haven't they only applied for accredidation? I think it's a little early to making these assumptions.
 
OMG Lizards said:
DeVry owns 2 MD schools actually. Ross and AUC. Though they don't offer online courses, I don't see how that would differ from the home-based learning that most of us do anyway.
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Carib is already getting marginalized by the ACGME... and many of their students fail out

Good try
 
SurgeDO said:
At this point, haven't they only applied for accredidation? I think it's a little early to making these assumptions.
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They have already broken ground on their building according to news
 
Didierdrogba said:
The DO profession as it stands now is great, but if I knew this much about COCA and how they would keep accrediting controversial schools, I would probably do an SMP and try to get into an MD school. Last thing I want is to have my degree lose its value.
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I won't lie, that is my main concern with entering the DO profession. If the physic section didn't exist I'd retake and take another gap year. But since I am awful at physics and gen chem life sucks.
 
Didierdrogba said:
They have already broken ground on their building according to news
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Because they are almost certain to get it. Coca again is ambivalent to the image of our profession and how it may affect us negatively.
 
Amazing isn't it though that plenty of DO students are still able to pass the USMLE on the first try... and that people still pass step 2 first time etc...

You guys are really blowing this out of proportion....
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
Amazing isn't it though that plenty of DO students are still able to pass the USMLE on the first try... and that people still pass step 2 first time etc...

You guys are really blowing this out of proportion....
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USMLE takers are already a self selecting group, and even then we cannot match the MD pass rate...
 
OMG Lizards said:
DeVry owns 2 MD schools actually. Ross and AUC. Though they don't offer online courses, I don't see how that would differ from the home-based learning that most of us do anyway.
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Those aren't MD schools as you would think they are. They are off-shore medical schools outside the purview of the LCME. DeVry is simply exploiting a backdoor to medicine because so many people want to be physicians here but don't have the chops to make it into an accredited program.

When we talk MD schools, we are talking about LCME accredited programs stateside.
 
notbobtrustme said:
Those aren't MD schools as you would think they are. They are off-shore medical schools outside the purview of the LCME. DeVry is simply exploiting a backdoor to medicine because so many people want to be physicians here but don't have the chops to make it into an accredited program.

When we talk MD schools, we are talking about LCME accredited programs stateside.
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If DeVry owned a US MD school (for-profit status aside) would SDNers be worried?
 
NurWollen said:
If DeVry owned a US MD school (for-profit status aside) would SDNers be worried?
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Yes and no. Yes because I most for-profit schools aren't going to be academic programs. No because image wise the profession is cushioned by a lot of positive regard. The DO profession is at least in the eyes of many program directors seen as a collective entity. So CCOM, PCOM = Liberty. I think that's dangerous for all DO graduates.
 
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