liberty medical school <facepalm>

[Didierdrogba]

Very open minded of you

You seriously don't think there is something that smells off with Liberty University having a medical school?

Its undergrad biology class teaches creationism for god's sake. The whole DO philosophy is being criticized for being thin on scientific foundation, if we add creationism to the mix, this will kill our profession.

America is conservative as is, there's no need to push it over the edge

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[NurWollen]

I feel that Liberty University is too far right wing to establish a medical school. How people perceive Its political association will harm the osteopathic community.

Yeah, but nearly every other school (undergrad, graduate, and professional) is far-left. No one cries foul in those cases.

 

[NurWollen]

You seriously don't think there is something that smells off with Liberty University having a medical school?

Its undergrad biology class teaches creationism for god's sake. The whole DO philosophy is being criticized for being thin on scientific foundation, if we add creationism to the mix, this will kill our profession.

America is conservative as is, there's no need to push it over the edge

I do think there's something off with Liberty having a medical school... but what you're saying is that institutions whose politics are different than yours are a problem in and of themselves.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Yeah, but nearly every other school (undergrad, graduate, and professional) is far-left. No one cries foul in those cases.

LOLOLOL


Are you suggesting nearly every university in the Western world is far left? Not teaching creationism is far left?

Shouldn't that make you reconsider your own position a bit?

 

[Banned]

lol thanks COCA for your never ending pursuit of devaluing the DO degree.

Sick of dealing with osteo BS. Time to do some research on what MD schools will take DO transfers.

 

[NurWollen]

LOLOLOL


Are you suggesting nearly every university in the Western world is far left?

Let's just say I'm halfway serious. Definitely more liberal bias in academia than conservative bias, though.

Not teaching creationism is far left?

Not at all. I went to a conservative religious university. One of the few schools I can think of with a conservative bias. I learned evolution just like any other biology major.

But there are more respected religious schools with very conservative positions on creationism. Is Campbell's DO program 'too conservative?' Would you be worried if Wheaton opened a DO school?

Obviously I've just named a few schools that are conservative, but you'll I'm sure admit, they are greatly outnumbered by schools with a liberal bias.

I'm kind if playing devil's advocate here anyway. I have issues with Liberty, I'm not sure how I stand. I think COCA really needs to put the brakes on new schools. I'm not trying to troll or pick a fight either, I just think the idea that conservatism itself somehow runs counter to quality education is unfair.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Not at all. I went to a conservative religious university. One of the few schools I can think of with a conservative bias. I learned evolution just like any other biology major.

problem is Liberty U actually teaches creationism. This is unacceptable for any medical school. You can see how osteopathic medicine will go backwards, and become even more of a laughing stock if taught there, right?

 

[GUH]

problem is Liberty U actually teaches creationism. This is unacceptable for any medical school. You can see how osteopathic medicine will go backwards, and become even more of a laughing stock if taught there, right?

Why is it assumed that LU would teach creationism in its medical school curriculum?

 

[Didierdrogba]

Why is it assumed that LU would teach creationism in its medical school curriculum?

I actually think that they probably won't do it. Evolution is not even part of the medical school curriculum anyways. But it's a terrible idea to be associated with a school that teaches pseudoscience. As if OPP isn't pseudoscience enough already.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

I actually think that they probably won't do it. It's not even part of the medical school curriculum any ways. But it's a terrible idea to be associated with a school that teaches pseudoscience. As if OPP isn't pseudoscience enough already.

see bold, que the rim shot! OHHHH!

 

[Didierdrogba]

see bold, que the rim shot! OHHHH!

What do you know about OPP, premed?

 

[SurgeDO]

What do you know about OPP, premed?

I think the AOA/COCA deserves more credit than you are giving them.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

What do you know about OPP, premed?

I know its a shade more than pseudoscience. Med!

 

[Didierdrogba]

I think the AOA/COCA deserves more credit than you are giving them.

sigh...

just gotta wait till you guys start your classes, then you will know exactly why OMSs whine so much about OPP

 

[SurgeDO]

sigh...

just gotta wait till you guys start your classes, then you will know exactly why OMSs whine so much about OPP

Good point. I look forward to learning about these political issues in gross anatomy and biochemistry.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

sigh...

just gotta wait till you guys start your classes, then you will know exactly why OMSs whine so much about OPP

I dont doubt your insight one bit. I have a profound respect for it truth be told. However, I tend to seek out the best in everything and I can almost guarantee I find something useful in it. Even if its just giving my wife an acceptionally good "back rub".

 

[Didierdrogba]

I dont doubt your insight one bit. I have a profound respect for it truth be told. However, I tend to seek out the best in everything and I can almost guarantee I find something useful in it. Even if its just giving my wife an acceptionaly good "back rub".

Dont get me wrong, some of it is useful, but a lot of it is just glorified stretching and some just pure BS

 

[Nymphicus]

Good point. I look forward to learning about these political issues in gross anatomy and biochemistry.

"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

-Mark Twain

 

[Didierdrogba]

"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

-Said every OMS who had been in an OPP lab

 

[Dissected]

"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

-Mark Twain

Great quote

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

-Said every OMS who had been in an OPP lab

Come on, not every OMS student shares your opinion about OMM and you know it. Every DO class has people who hate it, people who tolerate it, people who kind of like it, and people who love it. Stop scaring the pre-meds.

I share no love for Liberty University or their message. But religious affiliation should not preclude a school from opening up a medical school. Many medical school in the US and around the world have a religious emphasis. Its not really as big of a deal as you all seem to think it is.

 

[Dmr6186]

I actually think that they probably won't do it. Evolution is not even part of the medical school curriculum anyways. But it's a terrible idea to be associated with a school that teaches pseudoscience. As if OPP isn't pseudoscience enough already.

Does it mean they will teach their students to treat pneumonia patients with prayer instead of traditional medical treatments? C'mon, I think you're blowing this out of proportion a little with way too many assumptions.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Does it mean they will teach their students to treat pneumonia patients with prayer instead of traditional medical treatments? C'mon, I think you're blowing this out of proportion a little with way too many assumptions.

Honestly, I am already very open minded towards OPP compared to my classmates and fellow DO students. If you need proof, go read my previous comments about OPP techniques on other threads.

All I want to say to you at this point is: wait and see, my friend, wait and see.

I share no love for Liberty University or their message. But religious affiliation should not preclude a school from opening up a medical school. Many medical school in the US and around the world have a religious emphasis. Its not really as big of a deal as you all seem to think it is.

I agree, religious affiliation should have nothing to do from opening a medical school, but the preaching of pseudoscience should. Like I said earlier, how can you expect people to take osteopathic medicine seriously when it is offered by a school that openly supports creationism?

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Some of the OMM/OPP is great and useful, and sound... Some of it... isn't...
Liberty's med school is getting our neuroscience prof as the dept chair... who fails at least 10% of the class every year at every school he's ever taught at... Good luck liberty students!

 

[Didierdrogba]

Some of the OMM/OPP is great and useful, and sound... Some of it... isn't...
Liberty's med school is getting our neuroscience prof as the dept chair... who fails at least 10% of the class every year at every school he's ever taught at... Good luck liberty students!

So they do have the green light to go ahead with this school?

Thanks, my future degree has just been cheapened.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I don't really worry about this stuff, I'm not sure who you talk to, or what the issue is, but I think you need to calm down a bit... I work with MDs all the time who have never once said anything negative about my school or my future degree. They will base their decisions upon each students actions and attitude not the school they go to... Seriously... you're overboard...

 

[Didierdrogba]

I don't really worry about this stuff, I'm not sure who you talk to, or what the issue is, but I think you need to calm down a bit... I work with MDs all the time who have never once said anything negative about my school or my future degree. They will base their decisions upon each students actions and attitude not the school they go to... Seriously... you're overboard...

This is potential religious fundamentalism encroachment into science. What's next? Taliban in the US?

 

[deleted480308]

This is potential religious fundamentalism encroachment into science. What's next? Taliban in the US?

Is there an aluminum hat on your head?

 

[Didierdrogba]

Is there an aluminum hat on your head?

hmmm, I don't know who is being brain washed, me or religious fundamentalists

 

[Dmr6186]

This is potential religious fundamentalism encroachment into science. What's next? Taliban in the US?

Yes, let's go from "a religious idea about how things were created" to "Muslim zealots bent on bombing financial centers and enslaving the world." Gimmie a break. Cos, you know, you can't learn about cellular respiration if a school believes in creationism. Just not possible. And medicine is solely concerned about something that happened billions of years ago. It treats those diseases, not the diseases today [/sarcasm]. The proper medication or surgical procedure is no more less helpful or dangerous if it's done by a creationist doctor or an evolutionist doctor.

Be the best doctor you can be. That's it. Don't judge others and their capabilities based on their PERSONAL religious beliefs that do zero mental, physical, and emotional harm to you or anyone else. Is that how you will look at your future patients and colleagues?

Please cease and desist this nonsense You know nothing of the school's potential medical curriculum and you're already showing your ignorance and immaturity, O Great and Wise Med Student (that's for insulting someone earlier by calling them a pre-med in a vert condescending manner, where other med students backed him/her up. Apology to DO Fo Sho, maybe?).

What do you know about OPP, premed?

 

[Didierdrogba]

Yes, let's go from "a religious idea about how things were created" to "Muslim zealots bent on bombing financial centers and enslaving the world." Gimmie a break. Cos, you know, you can't learn about cellular respiration if a school believes in creationism. Just not possible. And medicine is solely concerned about something that happened billions of years ago. It treats those diseases, not the diseases today [/sarcasm]. The proper medication or surgical procedure is no more less helpful or dangerous if it's done by a creationist doctor or an evolutionist doctor.

Be the best doctor you can be. That's it. Don't judge others and their capabilities based on their PERSONAL religious beliefs that do zero mental, physical, and emotional harm to you or anyone else. Is that how you will look at your future patients and colleagues?

Im not judging anybody as a person/ doctor/ premed/ medical student whatever at all. You can be a fantastic doctor no matter what you believe in, no doubt.

I'm judging Liberty University. Creationism has no place in true science, period. It is shameful that it is being promoted so much in the US today, and it is embarrassing that our profession is associated with it. We have come very far to be finally accepted as mainstream since the early 1900's. Today, osteopathic medicine needs to be even more evidence based, and having the creationism/ pseudoscience label is surely bad for the progress of the profession.

Also, American children have already fallen far behind chldren in other countries in science, If you like to see America continue to go backwards, be my guest.

PS. Honestly, you guys still have yet to learn OMM, granted, some OMM makes sense. But just wait till you learn something like cranial or chapman points etc, or when you are told to do an osteopathic structural exam for no reason. It's pure BS

 

[Dmr6186]

Im not judging anybody as a person/ doctor/ premed/ medical student whatever at all. You can be a fantastic doctor no matter what you believe in, no doubt.

I'm judging Liberty University. Creationism has no place in true science, period. It is shameful that it is being promoted so much in the US today, and it is embarrassing that our profession is associated with it. We have come very far to be finally accepted as mainstream since the early 1900's. Today, osteopathic medicine needs to be even more evidence based, and having the creationism/ pseudoscience label is surely bad for the progress of the profession.

Also, American children have already fallen far behind chldren in other countries in science, If you like to see America continue to go backwards, be my guest.

PS. Honestly, you guys still have yet to learn OMM, granted, some OMM makes sense. But just wait till you learn something like cranial or chapman points etc, or when you are told to do an osteopathic structural exam on every patient by your OMM professor. It's pure BS

1. No one from Liberty said the medical curriculum will have even a slight creationist/evolutionist slant.

2. There was a time not too long ago where yes, we were ahead of the curve. And that was a time when creationism was largely taught in schools. With prayers. And the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag. But now that we have largely begun to shun those things in school and introduce a more secular/evolutionary point of view/curriculum, we have slowly fallen behind in the world academically. I'm not saying these things were or were not successful in helping or hurting us and our childrens' future. You are. I'm just playing your game. You draw the conclusion then of what's been killing us academically based on that. We got rid of creationism in schools in a large majority of major school systems. So now what's the problem with us?

3. I'm aware some OMM is strange. But taking the opinions of other med students, some of it can be very useful too.

4. I'm done.

Edit:

5. Learning about evolution didn't help me improve my reading, my math, my knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology. It didn't give me better handwriting (it's pretty bad), it didn't help me get my driver's license, didn't help me get my girlfriend. Sorry, but learning about evolution did jack for me in all of those departments Oh, but the knowledge of evolution did help me get into medical school. It was giving me the answers during the interview through a clear earpiece that admissions didn't catch. No way they would have accepted the real me (joke, obviously!)

 

[Didierdrogba]

1. No one from Liberty said the medical curriculum will have even a slight creationist/evolutionist slant.

2. There was a time not too long ago where yes, we were ahead of the curve. And that was a time when creationism was largely taught in schools. With prayers. And the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag. But now that we have largely begun to shun those things in school and introduce a more secular/evolutionary point of view/curriculum, we have slowly fallen behind in the world academically. I'm not saying these things were or were not successful in helping or hurting us and our childrens' future. You are. I'm just playing your game. You draw the conclusion then of what's been killing us academically based on that. We got rid of creationism in schools in a large majority of major school systems. So now what's the problem with us?

3. I'm aware some OMM is strange. But taking the opinions of other med students, some of it can be very useful too.

4. I'm done.

Edit:

5. Learning about evolution didn't help me improve my reading, my math, my knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology. It didn't give me better handwriting (it's pretty bad), it didn't help me get my driver's license, didn't help me get my girlfriend. Sorry, but learning about evolution did jack for me in all of those departments Oh, but the knowledge of evolution did help me get into medical school. It was giving me the answers during the interview through a clear earpiece that admissions didn't catch. No way they would have accepted the real me (joke, obviously!)

1. I have indeed expressed my belief numerous times on sdn that if Liberty were to open an Osteopathic school, its medical curriculum would not teach evolution. However it is already being taught at their undergraduate level

2. Fair enough.. But
asdf 1. time has changed
asdf 2. this still does not justify the teaching of pseudoscience. Why not teach kids the accepted and prevailing paradigm when it is backed by substantial evidence? Teaching creationism to children is the equivalent of knowingly feeding children with incorrect information.

(PS I personally have no problem with pledge of allegiance at school because nobody said it was supposed to be science, unlike creationsim)

3. That's basically what I said

4.

5. Don't rush to that conclusion. if you did not know anything about evolution, how could you explain observations such as antibiotic resistance?



All I am saying is that pseudoscience, including creationism would undermine the legitimacy of osteopathic profession. It is wise if we stay away from anything close to it, therefore it is a dumb idea to let Liberty open a DO school. Is this understood?

 

[Trogghunter]

Would anyone like to start a petition against this? I feel like if we get a couple thousand students behind it, it'll turn heads. SDN-Unite!.post the petition in the allo and pre-allo forum saying that Lib will be better than JH.

 

[GUH]

People said the sky was falling back when RVU started but somehow the osteopathic profession survived.

This is more of the same.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

RVU still matches ppl into in majority mediocre residencies.
And honestly Virginia has a DO school with extremely low stats, VCOM. Opening up another will just lead to scraping the bottom of the barrel and accepting applicants that honestly have no way of getting into other medical schools.
If RVU takes decently equipped students and matches them into weak residencies. Then liberty will accept the weakest students, fail half of them out, and send the rest into the weakest programs into Wyoming.

 

[GUH]

RVU still matches ppl into in majority mediocre residencies.
And honestly Virginia has a DO school with extremely low stats, VCOM. Opening up another will just lead to scraping the bottom of the barrel and accepting applicants that honestly have no way of getting into other medical schools.
If RVU takes decently equipped students and matches them into weak residencies. Then liberty will accept the weakest students, fail half of them out, and send the rest into the weakest programs into Wyoming.

Willing to put money on that?

 

[DocVapor]

RVU still matches ppl into in majority mediocre residencies.
And honestly Virginia has a DO school with extremely low stats, VCOM. Opening up another will just lead to scraping the bottom of the barrel and accepting applicants that honestly have no way of getting into other medical schools.
If RVU takes decently equipped students and matches them into weak residencies. Then liberty will accept the weakest students, fail half of them out, and send the rest into the weakest programs into Wyoming.

I'm wondering where you get the idea that VCOM has "extremely low stats."

Take a look here:

We'll take the highest GPA's for 2011 matriculants to all schools, which happens to be the ones which include graduate level work:

Science GPA: 3.43 Non-Science: 3.59 Overall: 3.50

Now taking a look at VCOM's class of 2015 Profile found here:

Science GPA: 3.52 Overall: 3.59


Seems to me like VA might have enough students to support another DO school without "scraping the bottome of the barrel."

Now, if you want to get into a discussion about quality rotation sites, residency placement opportunities, etc., you'd probably have more valid points there.

 

[Didierdrogba]

People said the sky was falling back when RVU started but somehow the osteopathic profession survived.

This is more of the same.

Totally different situation. RVU is just a for profit school, which model had already been successful with the offshore schools. For profit is not even necessarily a bad thing, many of the services/ grocery etc we depend on come from for profit companies.

However, Liberty, with its strongly partisan political agenda and more importantly a track record of promoting pseudoscience, is truly a bad candidate for teaching something that is supposed to be as unbiased, evidence based as medicine

 

[Didierdrogba]

I'm wondering where you get the idea that VCOM has "extremely low stats."

Take a look here:

We'll take the highest GPA's for 2011 matriculants to all schools, which happens to be the ones which include graduate level work:

Science GPA: 3.43 Non-Science: 3.59 Overall: 3.50

Now taking a look at VCOM's class of 2015 Profile found here:

Science GPA: 3.52 Overall: 3.59


Seems to me like VA might have enough students to support another DO school without "scraping the bottome of the barrel."

Now, if you want to get into a discussion about quality rotation sites, residency placement opportunities, etc., you'd probably have more valid points there.

Their MCAT average is only 25... that's pretty damn low

disclaimer: im not implying that people at VCOM are potentially bad doctors.

 

[deleted480308]

Totally different situation. RVU is just a for profit school, which model had already been successful with the offshore schools. For profit is not even necessarily a bad thing, many of the services/ grocery etc we depend on come from for profit companies.

However, Liberty, with its strongly partisan political agenda and more importantly a track record of promoting pseudoscience, is truly a bad candidate for teaching something that is supposed to be as unbiased, evidence based as medicine

So your opinion is that although there are multiple religiously associated med schools and centuries of religious physicians with commendable performance that somehow Liberty will destroy us all?

 

[SurgeDO]

So your opinion is that although there are multiple religiously associated med schools and centuries of religious physicians with commendable performance that somehow Liberty will destroy us all?

The only medical school associated with religion I can think of is Loma Linda. Are there more?

 

[DocVapor]

Their MCAT average is only 25... that's pretty damn low

disclaimer: im not implying that people at VCOM are potentially bad doctors.

Thanks, I meant to show MCAT as well but got distracted and hit submit to soon. Agreed about the low published MCAT (the website states "above 25" but I'll just take it to mean 25) - average for all DO matriculants was 26.51 with a median of 26.

And I didn't think you were implying that at all.

 

[Didierdrogba]

The only medical school associated with religion I can think of is Loma Linda. Are there more?

Creighton, saint louis U...etc

But none is as far to one side of the political spectrum and pseudoscience promoting as Liberty. They are notorious for that

Also, sb247, im not bashing your religion at all. just look through my comments, I said nothing against Christianity in general, just a certain segment called the fundamentalist, which happen to be what LIberty University as a whole believes in..

 

[Didierdrogba]

Thanks, I meant to show MCAT as well but got distracted and hit submit to soon. Agreed about the low published MCAT (the website states "above 25" but I'll just take it to mean 25) - average for all DO matriculants was 26.51 with a median of 26.

And I didn't think you were implying that at all.

To be honest, I think 26.51 is also pretty damn low. Honestly several students at each DO school simply seem like they cannot cut it. This would be another issue that should be best reserved for another thread.

 

[DocVapor]

I wonder how many Liberty undergraduate alumni are in other medical schools at the moment. I can think of several in my class. I would like to know what they think of Liberty opening up the med school.

I'm probably too lazy to find out and post here though, so :/. Maybe one or two of them will see this thread and post.

To be honest, I think 26.51 is also pretty damn low. Honestly several students at each DO school simply seem like they cannot cut it. This would be another issue that should be best reserved for another thread.

Agreed.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Would anyone like to start a petition against this? I feel like if we get a couple thousand students behind it, it'll turn heads. SDN-Unite!.post the petition in the allo and pre-allo forum saying that Lib will be better than JH.

sign me up lol

 

[darklabel]

To be honest, I think 26.51 is also pretty damn low. Honestly several students at each DO school simply seem like they cannot cut it. This would be another issue that should be best reserved for another thread.

Let's see what the stats are for this recent cycle. I wouldn't be surprised if it move up to an average 27+. At this rate, an average of ~30 for DO schools is very possible.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Their MCAT average is only 25... that's pretty damn low

disclaimer: im not implying that people at VCOM are potentially bad doctors.

VCOM is also established and existed for over 10 years. Liberty will literally be the application site of a 20 average.

 

[NurWollen]

I wonder if Liberty will go the direction of Campbell and have their med school be a bit less intensely religious as their undergraduate school (I've heard this is the case with Campbell, someone correct me if I am wrong.). I would be willing to bet they will have rules in place like Loma Linda regarding extra-marital sex, etc., i.e. things they regard as immoral. Which is fine, it's a private school and they have a right to set the atmosphere they choose. They'll probably attract a certain type of student that's ok with that.

As far as reputation, I dunno. They are regionally accredited, non-profit, and have at least some semblance of a Division I athletics program. At least according to US News, their full-time on-campus student acceptance rate is 24.6 %. Their chancellor (the infamous Jerry Falwell Jr.) earned his undergraduate degree there and went earn a law degree at UVa (so going to Liberty didn't exactly blacklist him from prestigious graduate programs.)

I don't think this is as big a deal as people are making it out to be.