If anyone has questions please feel free to ask.
Yes, the fellowship route is an alternative pathway that is available to pcps who want to enhance their em skills. Residency is the gold standard but if a pcp wants to staff an ed then a fellowship can give you greater confidence.Not trying to create a thread of FM-->EM fellowship vs EM here... I am an IM PGY2 doing my EM rotation now... I have come across a lot of threads here where EM docs are arguing against EM fellowship coming from FM. Of course, going straight to EM should be the gold standard, but I really don't understand the argument that an EM fellowship will not prepare an FM doc to practice safely in the ED... That is just B$!
Not trying to create a thread of FM-->EM fellowship vs EM here... I am an IM PGY2 doing my EM rotation now... I have come across a lot of threads here where EM docs are arguing against EM fellowship coming from FM. Of course, going straight to EM should be the gold standard, but I really don't understand the argument that an EM fellowship will not prepare an FM doc to practice safely in the ED... That is just B$!
Not a silly question. I work 75% in the ed and 25% as a hospitalist. No outpatient work.This may be a silly question, but will you be doing just EM from now on or do you plan to also work in an outpatient setting?
Some of their content/conferences are led by Canadian FM docs who have a 1 year fellowship. That's the irony of it. Its strictly job market protectionism which is totally fair - but you'd figure they'd focus that anti-fm energy on midlevels who are the true job market threat.Not trying to create a thread of FM-->EM fellowship vs EM here... I am an IM PGY2 doing my EM rotation now... I have come across a lot of threads here where EM docs are arguing against EM fellowship coming from FM. Of course, going straight to EM should be the gold standard, but I really don't understand the argument that an EM fellowship will not prepare an FM doc to practice safely in the ED... That is just B$!
Some of their content/conferences are led by Canadian FM docs who have a 1 year fellowship. That's the irony of it. Its strictly job market protectionism which is totally fair - but you'd figure they'd focus that anti-fm energy on midlevels who are the true job market threat.
Yeah... There is nothing inherent about ED than an FM doc can't learn with one-year fellowship.Some of their content/conferences are led by Canadian FM docs who have a 1 year fellowship. That's the irony of it. Its strictly job market protectionism which is totally fair - but you'd figure they'd focus that anti-fm energy on midlevels who are the true job market threat.
Great points my friend. And I agree. The motives of many medical societies include financial and political considerations. That said, I wanted to use this post to inform my family medicine colleagues about a real Ed Fellowship experience as opposed to misinformation and hearsay. Anyway, thanks for your post!Some of their content/conferences are led by Canadian FM docs who have a 1 year fellowship. That's the irony of it. Its strictly job market protectionism which is totally fair - but you'd figure they'd focus that anti-fm energy on midlevels who are the true job market threat.
Great points my friend. And I agree. The motives of many medical societies include financial and political considerations. That said, I wanted to use this post to inform my family medicine colleagues about a real Ed Fellowship experience as opposed to misinformation and hearsay. Anyway, thanks for your post!
You do realise you're using the same logical fallacy that midlevels use to come after your jobs, no?
Absolutely 100% disagree. The Midlevels did not go through 4 years of medical school AND 4 years of post-graduate training. The FM physician did a 3 year FM Residency followed by a year long EM fellowship. The PA Did 4 years of undergrad and 2 years of PA school, or a 5 year combined UG-PA route.
5-6 years vs 12 years. The FM doctor with an EM fellowship is 100x more capable of critical thinking and correctly diagnosing things in the ED (Assuming both the midlevel and FM doc have had the same length of ED experience)
This argument has been rehashed 1000000000x. Yes, they did 4 years of postgraduate training. That being said, most of that postgraduate training is in a completely different field.
Board certification in EM requires at least 24 months of dedicated EM time in an emergency department with sufficiently high acuity to allow consistent exposure to management of trauma resuscitation and acute medical resuscitation of otherwise undifferentiated patients, in addition to 4 months of dedicated Critical care time and one month of dedicated Trauma time. A 12 month fellowship in an ED that "maybe" meets that criteria is literally half the time required - and that doesn't even address the deficiencies in exposure to critical care.
You want to do an EM doc's job with half the training. An NP wants to do your job with half the training. What is the difference?
The value of residency goes beyond simple exposure to patients and procedures. There is an inherent value in having accredited individuals track and direct your longitudinal growth and ensure that you are hitting milestones appropriately. We acknowledge that value in every other specialty but for some reason when it comes to EM everyone seems to live at the peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve (aka the peak of mount stupid) and assume that it's easy after minimal exposure.
Emergency Medicine in the US was founded nearly 40 years ago by people not trained in Emergency Medicine. Nearly all of them would agree that in 2019 there is no such thing as a non-inferior substitute to an EM residency.
Just stop.
Look, I intubate and sedate and place central lines and A lines nearly every shift. I've tubed difficult airways in hemodynamically unstable patients. Should I be allowed to walk into the OR and just be an anaesthesiologist?
I read literally hundreds of CXRs and extremity films, Head CTs and other imaging. Would it be advisable to take a job as a radiology attending?
I interpret literally hundreds of EKGs a week and manage dozens of cardiac complaints ranging from stable angina to STEMI to acute decompensated CHF with cardiogenic shock. I've pushed lytics in the middle of the night, I've done pericardiocentesis, cardioversions for refractory AFib and managed VT storm in patients with HOCM. Should I be a cardiologist?
Of course FM and EM have significant overlap. We're both generalists - by definition we have significant overlap with literally every field in medicine. That isn't enough to do someone else's job to anything greater than a mediocre level. Let's cut the bull**** here.
Nobody said you should walk in and be a Cardiologist or an Anesthesiologist. But, if you did a 1 year Anesthesia fellowship, I'd trust you in an emergent scenario in the event an Anesthesiologist was not readily available (Like in the majority of this country where there are more cows than people)Just stop.
Look, I intubate and sedate and place central lines and A lines nearly every shift. I've tubed difficult airways in hemodynamically unstable patients. Should I be allowed to walk into the OR and just be an anaesthesiologist?
I read literally hundreds of CXRs and extremity films, Head CTs and other imaging. Would it be advisable to take a job as a radiology attending?
I interpret literally hundreds of EKGs a week and manage dozens of cardiac complaints ranging from stable angina to STEMI to acute decompensated CHF with cardiogenic shock. I've pushed lytics in the middle of the night, I've done pericardiocentesis, cardioversions for refractory AFib and managed VT storm in patients with HOCM. Should I be a cardiologist?
Of course FM and EM have significant overlap. We're both generalists - by definition we have significant overlap with literally every field in medicine. That isn't enough to do someone else's job to anything greater than a mediocre level. Let's cut the bull**** here.
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Hence some fellowships (eg critical care) accept applicants from different specialties.Nobody said you should walk in and be a Cardiologist or an Anesthesiologist. But, if you did a 1 year Anesthesia fellowship, I'd trust you in an emergent scenario in the event an Anesthesiologist was not readily available (Like in the majority of this country where there are more cows than people)
Dammit just ONCE I'd like there to be a normal, civil EM-FM conversation on this board without 1-2 people just blowing it up.
Dammit just ONCE I'd like there to be a normal, civil EM-FM conversation on this board without 1-2 people just blowing it up.
But why would anyone click on that thread then?
Hey all, this is an fm board and my intention was and is to disseminate my fellowship experience to other fms and or pcps because a lot of us have considered the fellowship. Also i wanted to stop some of the disinformation and hearsay. To anyone interested please message me.
Also, I hoped not to argue the validity of non residency trained providers practicing in the ed as clearly thousands of us (fm with and wo fellowship training, nps/pas , cardiologists, oncologists, surgeons etc) are already working in the ed and nothing said on these anonymous boards will change that.
Again all due respect to all my residency trained colleagues in all fields including both pcps and specialists.
If any one has any questions about the fellowship let me know
I'll bite. Where did you do your fellowship (You can be general about just which region of the country youre in)?
It was a large trauma Hospital in the south.
What did you like about it, what didn't you like?
I loved learning more skills. I hated not being completely independent. To some extent it still felt like being a resident.
What would you wish you had more training in?
I wish I did a few more thoracostomys. I also wish I did a few more lines. That said, I got a lot more experience with those things in Fellowship than in residency.
What did you feel really confident about going into from your FM residency background.
There's lots of primary care and the ER. It was really funny being asked by multiple attendings what anti glycemic or antihypertensive I should discharge the patient on. Also, I was not intimidated by Peds. There was an internal medicine fellow in my cohort who was uncomfortable with Peds at least at the beginning.
How soon after your residency did you go back to do the fellowship? 2yrs
Do you plan on working outpatient ever as a PCP with EM shifts scattered throughout?
No more outpatient for me! But to me, the Ed seems like a super Clinic. The difference is that instead of waiting two weeks I can get my CBC or ultrasound in 2 hours. I practice 75% ER and 25% hospitalist.
Thank you for your insight. There aren't too many EM/IM residencies throughout the country, so I can imagine displacing your whole life just to pursue that can be difficult. I also imagine with there not being too many they are really competitive. Is this a route you wanted to do? Or did you not really know you wanted to do EM before doing your FM residency?
Sure.Train for the job you want. The right way. Sure you can get certified and credentialed and what have you. But your training is inferior and you are putting patients at risk.
Not helpful.Train for the job you want. The right way. Sure you can get certified and credentialed and what have you. But your training is inferior and you are putting patients at risk.
If the fellowship was longer than a year, would EM Physicians be as skeptical about it? Would making it two years be better for linear-growth and monitoring?
So I assume you're at the front-line fighting midlevels in their push for autonomy?Train for the job you want. The right way. Sure you can get certified and credentialed and what have you. But your training is inferior and you are putting patients at risk.
Man, I'm telling you! Ill try not too!Congrats yo! Time to make ca$h. But don't burn out.
Not that it truly matters but PAs do 100 weeks of graduate school and physicians do around 145-155 weeks so right at a year difference. You guys have summers off and other breaks. PA school we had 4 weeks off in 2 years. So 7 years for PAs and 11 years for MD or DO. Just making a point that your info is a little wrong. Now your training and 80 hours in residency do add up and your education is far superior to mine. I understand my role and know you guys are the captain of the ship. Does not bother me one bit. I just hate when people state that physicians go to school for 4 years and PAs only 2 years which is not true.Absolutely 100% disagree. The Midlevels did not go through 4 years of medical school AND 4 years of post-graduate training. The FM physician did a 3 year FM Residency followed by a year long EM fellowship. The PA Did 4 years of undergrad and 2 years of PA school, or a 5 year combined UG-PA route.
5-6 years vs 12 years. The FM doctor with an EM fellowship is 100x more capable of critical thinking and correctly diagnosing things in the ED (Assuming both the midlevel and FM doc have had the same length of ED experience)
I had 8 weeks off for the 1st year summer, 4 weeks for 2nd and like 7 weeks total all of 3rd and 4th year.Not that is truly matters but PAs do 100 weeks of graduate school and physicians do around 145-155 weeks so right at a year difference. You guys have summers off and other breaks. PA school we had 4 weeks off in 2 years. So 7 years for PAs and 11 years for MD or DO. Just making a point that your info is a little wrong. Now your training and 80 hours in residency do add up and your education is far superior to mine. I understand my role and know you guys are the captain of the ship. Does not bother me one bit. I just hate when people state that physicians go to school for 4 years and PAs only 2 years which is not true.
I have a lot of questions:
How do you balance your time between Hospitalist and EM duties? Do you do them in the same hospital? Are you technically "full-time" at one hospital system, or are you like per diem/part time for both jobs? Do you regret not doing an IM/EM residency? Did you not know you wanted to do EM before residency? What does 200/hr equate to salary wise for you as a FM physician working the ED? What is the normal hourly rate for EM physicians? I probably have more I can think of but I'll just ask these for now.
More power to you man. I did my first hematoma block with a PA.Not that is truly matters but PAs do 100 weeks of graduate school and physicians do around 145-155 weeks so right at a year difference. You guys have summers off and other breaks. PA school we had 4 weeks off in 2 years. So 7 years for PAs and 11 years for MD or DO. Just making a point that your info is a little wrong. Now your training and 80 hours in residency do add up and your education is far superior to mine. I understand my role and know you guys are the captain of the ship. Does not bother me one bit. I just hate when people state that physicians go to school for 4 years and PAs only 2 years which is not true.
Haha you got something to prove? I am not fudging the number. These numbers are from curriculums I looked up at various schools. The minimum requirement is 130 weeks of medical school. That's a fact, look it up. If you would calm down and read my post I state your training is far superior and that's something I am fine with. I chose PA over medical school. I had every prerequisite as any medical student plus some more. My point was correcting people when they think MDs and DOs go to 4 years of school and PAs only go to 2 years of school. Not true. I did 45 weeks of family medicine rotations (he was FM but did OB so did alot of C sections, LEEPs etc plus psych and long term care), 4 weeks ED, 5 weeks ICU, 4 weeks general surgery, 4 weeks hospitalist, 2 weeks UC, 1 week opthlmatology and a few other smaller rotations. Glad we are comparing with each other. I have nothing to prove cause I know my physician colleagues are much smarter than myself and I'm fine with that. Also you do take several boards but funny think our boards mimic step 2 CK and CS. I studied from step books. Lastly how are our board "not real boards" when they literally copy what you guys take just not as in depth and as many. Again I am not a physician so why do I need to take everything you take? Think about it...I had 8 weeks off for the 1st year summer, 4 weeks for 2nd and like 7 weeks total all of 3rd and 4th year.
You didn't take real boards. I did. Several of them actually. You didn't do 2 years of (hands on) rotations including 20 weeks of inpatient, month of ICU, 2 months in the ED etc. I did.
So no, even on day 1 of residency - a resident is drastically ahead of the PA. Don't fudge the numbers.
Haha you got something to prove? I am not fudging the number. These numbers are from curriculums I looked up at various schools. The minimum requirement is 130 weeks of medical school. That's a fact, look it up. If you would calm down and read my post I state your training is far superior and that's something I am fine with. I chose PA over medical school. I had every prerequisite as any medical student plus some more. My point was correcting people when they think MDs and DOs go to 4 years of school and PAs only go to 2 years of school. Not true. I did 45 weeks of family medicine rotations (he was FM but did OB so did alot of C sections, LEEPs etc plus psych and long term care), 4 weeks ED, 5 weeks ICU, 4 weeks general surgery, 4 weeks hospitalist, 2 weeks UC, 1 week opthlmatology and a few other smaller rotations. Glad we are comparing with each other. I have nothing to prove cause I know my physician colleagues are much smarter than myself and I'm fine with that. Also you do take several boards but funny think our boards mimic step 2 CK and CS. I studied from step books. Lastly how are our board "not real boards" when they literally copy what you guys take just not as in depth and as many. Again I am not a physician so why do I need to take everything you take? Think about it...
This thread went to ****...again
Its interesting to see the contrast between how the FM Emergency medicine fellowship is perceived vs the Pediatrics emergency medicine fellowship. Right or wrong Peds EM docs have convinced the majority of children's hospitals that their fellowship trained pediatricians are the best option and that someone with just an EM residency is a 2nd best option. On the other hand it seems like even FPs buy into the idea that their fellowship is a second best option behind an EM residency.If we had enough board-certified EPs to cover every ED in the country, this wouldn't be an issue. We don't. This seems a decent 2nd best option.