Is lifestyle alone a good enough reason to rule out general surgery?

[DermViser]

Do surgeons bring that much revenue to hospitals compared to other non-surgical docs?

I could be wrong, but in terms of total revenue, surgical physicians bring in much more revenue to a standing hospital than other specialties.

In general, inpatient type of stuff can be billed much more exorbitantly than outpatient stuff (as hospitals can also charge additional facility fees when something is done in a hospital) . Hence hospital administrators tend to like their money makers - which happen to be surgeons. And many surgeons, bc so few can do what they do, if unhappy, can easily leave and take their talents elsewhere. So hospital admins will want to keep them as happy as reasonably possible in terms of buying their equipment, gadgets, etc.

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[Esquire]

.

 

[mimelim]

I am late to the party, (last saw this thread on page 2), but the only person to ever throw a needle driver and miss my face by ~3 inches was a neuro surgeon. Just saying...

 

[DermViser]

Which specialty gets paid the least but generates more money for the hospital than:

cards (non-invasive)
gen surg
GI
heme-onc
IM
neph
neuro
neusu
ob
oto
ophtho
peds
psych
pulm
uro

Page 9 "Cost Benefit Analysis" - http://www.merritthawkins.com/uploadedFiles/MerrittHawkins/Pdf/mha2013revenuesurveyPDF.pdf

Is that a question?

 

[DermViser]

When I was on our emergency surgery service, we got called for an intraop consult for VP shunt placement.

It was a patient with multiple prior laparotomies and they weren't confident about getting access to the belly.

We did it laparoscopically and it overall went fine. My attending talked to the neurosurgeon about how he didn't mind doing these cases, and that if the neurosurgeon wanted he could call him directly ahead of time when he books a tough case so that they could set up a joint case.

The neurosurgeon laughed in his face and said he couldn't be bothered to coordinate his schedule and that "you guys have to come when I call a consult, so what's the point?"

WHAT A JERK.

 

[fancymylotus]

WHAT A JERK.

the correct term here is "jerkface"

 

[DermViser]

the correct term here is "jerkface"

And now you know why different specialties in a hospital hate each other. I've wondered if dentistry is like that.

 

[DermViser]

That was probably the most unprofessional interaction I've ever seen between two attendings

Not to mention the attending was offering to help in the future ahead of time to make things run smoother by coordinating. It's one thing to be an dingus for a reason, but to do it unnecessarily without any imposition on you is ridiculous.

 

[fancymylotus]

And now you know why different specialties in a hospital hate each other. I've wondered if dentistry is like that.

we get lots of **** from plastics where i work. but then again, every plastic surgeon ive met thinks that "occlusion" is the name of a new cologne or something so its always funzies when they wire people shut without checking to make sure their teef come together correctly, and then we and omfs have to fix it.

also none of the plastic surgery residents are even remotely attractive, so it makes tolerating their ridiculous egos that much less bearable. hrmph. if youre going to be a jerkface, at least be a pretty jerkface so i can distract myself from your nonsense.

 

[W19]

Which specialty gets paid the least but generates more money for the hospital than:

cards (non-invasive)
gen surg
GI
heme-onc
IM
neph
neuro
neusu
ob
oto
ophtho
peds
psych
pulm
uro

Page 9 "Cost Benefit Analysis" - http://www.merritthawkins.com/uploadedFiles/MerrittHawkins/Pdf/mha2013revenuesurveyPDF.pdf

FM is getting the end of the stick... They are #3 in that list, and still make below 200k while GI which generates a lot less revenue than FM make >400k

 

[DermViser]

we get lots of **** from plastics where i work. but then again, every plastic surgeon ive met thinks that "occlusion" is the name of a new cologne or something so its always funzies when they wire people shut without checking to make sure their teef come together correctly, and then we and omfs have to fix it.

also none of the plastic surgery residents are even remotely attractive, so it makes tolerating their ridiculous egos that much less bearable. hrmph. if youre going to be a jerkface, at least be a pretty jerkface so i can distract myself from your nonsense.

But that's between Plastic Surgery (that falls under Medicine) and OMFS (which generally falls under Dentistry). But there isn't as much sniping between say General/Pediatric Dentistry and say Periodontists, Orthodontists, etc.

 

[DermViser]

FM is getting the end of the stick... They are #3 in that list, and still make below 200k while GI which generates a lot less revenue than FM make >400k

Realize salary is a lot more complicated than just revenue brought in. There are many factors that affect this. Not to mention if you work for a hospital (essentially a corporation), the hospital will always get its cut. You can count on it.

 

[circulus vitios]

Do surgeons bring that much revenue to hospitals compared to other non-surgical docs?

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-generate-the-most-revenue-for-hospitals.html

I think it really depends on the practice environment. This link says that neurosurgeons don't really bring that much money to the hospital, but if you're like one of the two neurosurgeons at a hospital in the boondocks, you can pretty much do or get whatever the hell you want.

 

[frodohobo]

After comparing general surgery training to Navy Seal training. It ain't so bad!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Realize salary is a lot more complicated than just revenue brought in. There are many factors that affect this. Not to mention if you work for a hospital (essentially a corporation), the hospital will always get its cut. You can count on it.

Another factor to consider is patient referrals. Any employed physician diagnosing and/or treating patients with malignancies will be the source of multiple referrals (e.g., to Rad and Med Onc) which bring in substantial revenue to the hospital.

 

[DermViser]

Another factor to consider is patient referrals. Any employed physician diagnosing and/or treating patients with malignancies will be the source of multiple referrals (e.g., to Rad and Med Onc) which bring in substantial revenue to the hospital.

Yup. When you're in a hospital (corporation) all referrals usually keep you in house.

 

[W19]

I guess it's time for physicians to ask for a percentage of whatever revenue they bring to hospital or healthcare centers...

 

[Serous Demilune]

General surgeons save plenty of lives, and most people will see a general surgeon at some point in their life. Few people will require a neurosurgeon. Hell, given the length and complexity of many neuro procedures, you can probably knock out 4-5 general surgeries- if even one of them is life-saving, your score is up there with the neurosurgeon. Not that anyone's keeping score or anything. Plus many neurosurg patients either die or have significant deficits post-surgery. What good is saving someone who comes out the other side as a vegetable or with substantially reduced functioning?

Ugh, neuro...

But that elective $pine tho...

Not to mention DBS, SRS, peripheral nerve, basically anything not trauma or cerebrovascular, will have decent outcomes.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

You're kidding right? You bring in more revenue for the hospital you call the shots. Esp. if you're a surgeon.

No, I'm not kidding.

 

[Kahreek]

I am late to the party, (last saw this thread on page 2), but the only person to ever throw a needle driver and miss my face by ~3 inches was a neuro surgeon. Just saying...

had it a needle?

 

[fancymylotus]

I am late to the party, (last saw this thread on page 2), but the only person to ever throw a needle driver and miss my face by ~3 inches was a neuro surgeon. Just saying...

what a jerkface

 

[DermViser]

had it a needle?

Nope just the needle driver.

 

[circulus vitios]

I am late to the party, (last saw this thread on page 2), but the only person to ever throw a needle driver and miss my face by ~3 inches was a neuro surgeon. Just saying...

After he threw it, did you threaten to beat the **** out of him?

 

[DermViser]

After he threw it, did you threaten to beat the **** out of him?

Are you saying that bc he's a surgeon?

 

[fancymylotus]

Are you saying that bc he's a surgeon?

 

[Psai]

After he threw it, did you threaten to beat the **** out of him?

you obviously don't understand how medical school works

 

[DermViser]

Not saying all surgeons are like that. Just saying it's take the worst aspects of a stereotype. Surgeons can be dinguses, that doesn't mean ALL surgeons are dinguses, and I don't believe Mimelim is that way either. It was a gratuitous and crude remark on his part.

you obviously don't understand how medical school works

Except it happened during residency.

 

[circulus vitios]

you obviously don't understand how medical school works

If you would have pretended like nothing happened, you obviously don't understand how being a man works.

Are you saying that bc he's a surgeon?

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

 

[Kahreek]

Nope just the needle driver.

Do you know mimelim?

 

[Wordead]

If you would have pretended like nothing happened, you obviously don't understand how being a man works.

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

I'm sure everyone will be impressed by a manly man with 250K of debt, no degree, and no marketable skills because he didn't know when to swallow his pride.

 

[DermViser]

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

Did you even READ what miemlim typed? Try reading it again. This time slowly.

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm sure everyone will be impressed by a manly man with 250K of debt, no degree, and no marketable skills because he didn't know when to swallow his pride.

Document it and report it to your supervisor.

 

[Psai]

If you would have pretended like nothing happened, you obviously don't understand how being a man works.

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

you're about 0/100 so far

going to complain about the guy who's teaching you?
to someone who will have to deal with that guy for the next 20 years while you're there for 5?
against someone who brings revenue to your department?
yeah no you have no idea how being a doctor works. it's not just sitting in your room crying about nerve roots 24/7

 

[circulus vitios]

you're about 0/100 so far

going to complain about the guy who's teaching you?
to someone who will have to deal with that guy for the next 20 years while you're there for 5?
against someone who brings revenue to your department?
yeah no you have no idea how being a doctor works. it's not just sitting in your room crying about nerve roots 24/7

I almost want to say that people like you deserve to be abused.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ok guys, enough with the back and forth insults.

Some think it should have been reported; others think the resident should keep quiet. It only matters to @mimelim and shouldn't to anyone else.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

If you would have pretended like nothing happened, you obviously don't understand how being a man works.

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

Let's see how this plays out

You "be a man" and punch the guy out

you are now expelled from medical school/residency with no hope of ever paying off your $200,000 of debt. I hope it was worth it that was a very, very expensive punch

OR

You "report him", which basically just puts YOU on notice as a whiner and probably leads to further harassment of you just to egg you on and results in the same above

I mean I'd totally think someone would be cool for decking the guy but I'll continue my career while the expelled guy flips burgers or kills himself from overwhelming debt



EDIT: I was writing this post while the above was posted >_>;;;

 

[DermViser]

I almost want to say that people like you deserve to be abused.

Seriously, your response to things are just weird/not normal. You, EMDO2018, and Ark should really form a support group. Please go into path, for the sake of your patients, as I could totally see you blowing a gasket in a clinical residency.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

you're about 0/100 so far

going to complain about the guy who's teaching you?
to someone who will have to deal with that guy for the next 20 years while you're there for 5?
against someone who brings revenue to your department?
yeah no you have no idea how being a doctor works. it's not just sitting in your room crying about nerve roots 24/7

The ability to complain about malignant superiors is somewhat specialty and institution dependent. We've had attendings get into arguments when one of them treats a resident like crap.

At our institution, if someone who brings in revenue is a jerk, and revenue is all they offer, the institution just finds someone else to bring in revenue.

I.e, there is more than one neurosurgeon in town.

 

[KnuxNole]

If you would have pretended like nothing happened, you obviously don't understand how being a man works.

I'm just curious. If some stupid dingus threw a temper tantrum and as a result almost hit me with a needle driver, I wouldn't keep quiet.

You HAVE to. Unless you want to be fired with NOONE supporting you. EVER.

 

[KnuxNole]

Document it and report it to your supervisor.

That's the most you as a person can ever do in that situation. Remember, if he throws stuff at you, there is nothing you can do, being professional is the key. Everything has to be done behind closed doors.

As a med student, everyone here knows saying one breath is out of the question, which makes a lot of sense, and I know we aren't arguing about that.

 

[W19]

There is no way I would stay quiet and let anyone abuses me because he/she is an attending... I will bring that up to the Dean of students and if they don't do anything about it, I will take matter into my own hands. The line got to be drawn somewhere!

 

[KnuxNole]

Exactly. Don't EVER open your mouth verbally to say your opinion, argue with an attending, or "tell them straight", cause guess what? Noone will have W19's back, they will poop on you and throw you out like nasty trash in a blink of an eye. Report it SILENTLY, behind closed doors, and never use unprofessional language with your documentation. Also, in the hospital, never utter a curse word or show any signs of being nasty, cause the techs, nurses, residents, attendings will have that attendings back, not the disposable med student.

95% of the time, you can easily just get through your day saying nothing. After all, YOU(in a general term) as a person can't change their actions, ever. AS you know, any words you say won't change their behavior or job position. And they aren't your permanent boss. Like Taylor Swift says, just shake it off.

 

[DermViser]

I doubt it.

Lot of internet tough guys here...

If you have half of a brain cell, and encounter abuse as a med student, you will suck it up and keep your trap shut in the moment, then document it and report it through official channels. If you do anything else outside of that, you risk jeopardizing your degree and getting stuck with an armload of non-dischargable debt.

The only time I've heard of this being successful was here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...er-come-across-your-mind.681955/#post-8914658

Needless to say, he was a resident, not a med student, but still.

 

[fancymylotus]

im always amused when some of the grouchier surgeon attendings assume im a nurse, scrub tech, or med student. like, what? don't give me attitude, you jerkface. gtfo*

*and take your god complex with you!

 

[DermViser]

Exactly. Don't EVER open your mouth verbally to say your opinion, argue with an attending, or "tell them straight", cause guess what? Noone will have W19's back, they will poop on you and throw you out like nasty trash in a blink of an eye. Report it SILENTLY, behind closed doors, and never use unprofessional language with your documentation. Also, in the hospital, never utter a curse word or show any signs of being nasty, cause the techs, nurses, residents, attendings will have that attendings back, not the disposable med student.

95% of the time, you can easily just get through your day saying nothing. After all, YOU(in a general term) as a person can't change their actions, ever. AS you know, any words you say won't change their behavior or job position. And they aren't your permanent boss. Like Taylor Swift says, just shake it off.

Amazing to me how med students don't realize what a precarious situation they would be in. Like the House of God quote, they can always hurt you more. Love that you weaved Taylor Swift's new song into this. LOL!

 

[DermViser]

im always amused when some of the grouchier surgeon attendings assume im a nurse, scrub tech, or med student. like, what? don't give me attitude, you jerkface. gtfo*

*and take your god complex with you!

It's usually the lot older ones, in which very few if any females entered medicine. Women just didn't do that in their time. They were housewives, maybe teachers, nurses, or other allied health jobs, etc. Can't really blame them - it's the time period they were born in.

 

[DermViser]

Yes but still, I could easily see a scenario in which that resident would have ended up fired for their actions at a lot of hospitals.

This isn't kindergarten anymore - "they started it" is rarely a viable excuse.

As a student, you simply have too much to lose.

I 100% agree. I was just surprised at the outcome for that resident as well. Most of the cases, the resident would have been fired, even if the attending throws the first punch (as if somehow that makes it completely alright to punch one's attending).

 

[fancymylotus]

Yes but still, I could easily see a scenario in which that resident would have ended up fired for their actions at a lot of hospitals.

This isn't kindergarten anymore - "they started it" is rarely a viable excuse.

As a student, you simply have too much to lose.

I'd also point out that that post is going on 5 years old, and the incident in question likely even older. One of our now-attendings got in a fistfight with someone in the hospital in the early 2000s and the then chairman laughed about the incident. I think in today's climate it would play out very differently.

Im gonna punch you and dislocate your shoulder. #comeatme

 

[Slack3r]

Seriously, your response to things are just weird/not normal. You, EMDO2018, and Ark should really form a support group. Please go into path, for the sake of your patients, as I could totally see you blowing a gasket in a clinical residency.

Or better yet, just drop out and get it over with already. You'll be doing your colleagues and your future patients a favor.

 

[W19]

I guess to each its own! My school already declared me a 'persona non grata' (according to my roommate who is an MS2) because they know I have documented everything that happens in MS1 so far i.e professors being late, administration not following up on their promises etc... Every administration officials and professors I have met, I bring my notebook and document everything they say and I told them I am doing it... Already have almost 30 pages documented about everything that have happened so far....