Is lifestyle alone a good enough reason to rule out general surgery?

[SLUser11]

They definitely can if the practice is without general surgery call. Elective colon and anorectal cases tend to make for a relatively lifestyle friendly surgical practice. Would you agree @SLUser11 ?

Sorry, just saw this alert.

I think that you are in control of your lifestyle if you choose any surgical specialty with primarily elective conditions. For colorectal, lifestyle depends on how you run your practice and your life. Most colorectal conditions are elective (colorectal cancer, IBD, screening scopes, etc), and most "colorectal" emergencies can be handled by the general surgeon on call if you so desire (e.g. perforated diverticulitis, anorectal abscesses, bowel obstructions).

I'm very very busy, but I'm the only CRS at a major academic medical center, and I'm trying to build a practice and an academic career at the same time. I don't have too many midnight emergencies, but I keep myself occupied with administrative tasks, lectures, manuscript reviews, etc. If all I did is take care of patients and operate, my lifestyle would be great.

But, to answer the original question re: lifestyle related to my clinical responsibilities, I don't have too many takebacks because I'm not a dangerous surgeon, and while leaks happen, they are usually amenable to conservative management.....so real life numbers for a busy abdominal surgeon is probably 2-5 takebacks a year (or less)...it just seems like a lot if you're covering a PANEL of busy surgeons. As for call, most colorectal consults come in the normal business hours, and I have residents to see non-urgent consults at night (in the community, this would likely be handled over the phone with plans to see the patient in the morning). I go into the hospital late at night possibly 0-2 times/month...more often 0 than 2.

As for call, I take a whopping 1-2 calls/month for general surgery, so I do approximately 3-5 appys and 3-5 gallbladders a year. I share weekend coverage with MIS surgeons, and I work 1 weekend/month. Of course, as I mentioned already, I'm usually working most weekend days regardless of coverage, but I'm spending that time on non-clinical activities.

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[Kaustikos]

Call me naive, but I still can't find another field I'd enjoy being in. I've done months of this to try and find a reason not to do it but all the negatives pale in comparison. I've had ****ty attendings and bad residents, but I still find it desirable.
The personalities click. The operations are interesting and fulfilling. I say that because some students never understand how anyone can enjoy being in the or for hours. I don't see it as enjoyment, but more of an accomplishment (minus the complications that can occur).
The team mentality is nice. It's especially awesome to see a talented team work together. The synchronicity and execution coming together is just beyond words.
I'm biased. I've also been spoiled by working with one of the best damn HPB surgeons in the world and seeing him perform whipples. Yes, it's a bit of an exaggeration. But if you saw him in the OR, you'd see what I mean. He does it so well and with such ease that it makes it look easy lol

But anyways, I'd honestly recommend talking to interns/residents and hear what they have to say. If you can listen to their lifestyle and not be completely turned off... Why not?

 

[HoboCommander]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

 

[Southplains]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

Put a sock in it.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

God forbid someone actually enjoys operating on the abdomen!

 

[sinombre]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

Don't you think it's at least somewhat pathetic that as a medical student you spend your free time trolling in an online forum?

 

[VisionaryTics]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

1. When a neurosurgeon can operate on an acute abdomen, you have a leg to stand on

2. lol gl getting a decent exposure to the anterior or lateral skull base

>inb4 "Neurosurgeons have decent transnasal skills"

I've seen >10 neurosurgeons do transphenoidal approaches to the skull base. Wow. All I have to say. Wow.

 

[DermViser]

Call me naive, but I still can't find another field I'd enjoy being in. I've done months of this to try and find a reason not to do it but all the negatives pale in comparison. I've had ****ty attendings and bad residents, but I still find it desirable.
The personalities click. The operations are interesting and fulfilling. I say that because some students never understand how anyone can enjoy being in the or for hours. I don't see it as enjoyment, but more of an accomplishment (minus the complications that can occur).
The team mentality is nice. It's especially awesome to see a talented team work together. The synchronicity and execution coming together is just beyond words.
I'm biased. I've also been spoiled by working with one of the best damn HPB surgeons in the world and seeing him perform whipples. Yes, it's a bit of an exaggeration. But if you saw him in the OR, you'd see what I mean. He does it so well and with such ease that it makes it look easy lol

You're naive. Do you actually think General Surgery residency actually works in the way you're describing at least when you're an intern? Most of your "positives" are too program specific.

 

[DermViser]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

If you have the grades and board scores, apparently according to the latest Charting Outcomes you go to ENT, not Neurosurgery. You forgot @HoboCommander, you can also go for Plastics thru General Surgery.

 

[DermViser]

If you have the grades and the board scores...I have this crazy idea...you should do what you like

I was being sarcastic. I figured one silly assertion deserved another.

 

[wjs010]

My brother is a GS attending. He finished a few years ago. During residency, he was pretty miserable. He warned all the siblings to not go into medicine ( like, all of medicine lol). Then he graduated and joined a private practice and makes his own schedule. He travels when he wants. I'm sure he still works hard. He is MUCH happier now and doesn't even regret going into GS because he aways loved it. The residency makes it seem impossible. After hearing what he went through, I'm already deciding not to go through with surgery. I'm glad it doesn't interest me.

 

[DermViser]

My brother is a GS attending. He finished a few years ago. During residency, he was pretty miserable. He warned all the siblings to not go into medicine ( like, all of medicine lol). Then he graduated and joined a private practice and makes his own schedule. He travels when he wants. I'm sure he still works hard. He is MUCH happier now and doesn't even regret going into GS because he aways loved it. The residency makes it seem impossible. After hearing what he went through, I'm already deciding not to go through with surgery. I'm glad it doesn't interest me.

There's quite a bit of Stockholm Syndrome in Surgery residents. It's quite sickening, honestly. Not all general surgery residency programs are the same obviously, but there's a foundational layer of taking **** in residency that seems to be multiplied in that specialty. It's any wonder PGY-5s are so different when you talk w/them vs. PGY-1.

 

[Kaustikos]

There's quite a bit of Stockholm Syndrome in Surgery residents. It's quite sickening, honestly. Not all general surgery residency programs are the same obviously, but there's a foundational layer of taking **** in residency that seems to be multiplied in that specialty. It's any wonder PGY-5s are so different when you talk w/them vs. PGY-1.

True in some aspects. I defer to the expertise of residents but no one in my program tells me to turn and run. I know it sucks... a lot. But it seems like most residents aren't miserable. They have ****ty days/weeks, but it seems like they tolerate it well and work well together (for the most part).
The chiefs/fellows/attendings talk to interns like they've been there and don't treat them like complete ****. Yes, they make them do ****, but seeing what they do makes me think this school is an outlier.
Even after the **** week we went through last week that ended with the worst Friday after, they came back, laughed it off and moved on. I think that's why I wonder if I'm seeing an outlier.. Because it seems like no matter how bad it gets, they come in the next day without that negativity, depression or hatred I'd expect.

 

[Decicco]

yes

 

[Kaustikos]

You're naive. Do you actually think General Surgery residency actually works in the way you're describing at least when you're an intern? Most of your "positives" are too program specific.

Yes?
The intern gets the responsibility of taking care of the floor. Yes, I get that. It's almost scut work. But they do scrub in on cases and help out outside of the floor.
Different rotations have different setups. But Ive seen interns in almost all the rotations. It's not the exact same but there are similarities. Maybe I'm naive because I'm only seeing it here. Where we have NPs/PAs helping with floor responsibilities so it's not as bad.
Or maybe I'm offering the best scenario.
Either way, I'm not saying this stuff out of thin air but from talking to interns. They're the ones I interact with the most and they seem to deviate from hating it. Yes, it sucks, but someone has to do it.
I already know intern year involves almost no cases. I know it's the low end of the totem pole. But it seems like there isn't a complete disregard to interns. They're treated with some respect and not like the fecal remnants of an ostomy bag.
I guess my point is that I don't disagree it's 100% like I said but I do disagree that I'm far from right.

 

[DermViser]

True in some aspects. I defer to the expertise of residents but no one in my program tells me to turn and run. I know it sucks... a lot. But it seems like most residents aren't miserable. They have ****ty days/weeks, but it seems like they tolerate it well and work well together (for the most part).
The chiefs/fellows/attendings talk to interns like they've been there and don't treat them like complete ****. Yes, they make them do ****, but seeing what they do makes me think this school is an outlier.
Even after the **** week we went through last week that ended with the worst Friday after, they came back, laughed it off and moved on. I think that's why I wonder if I'm seeing an outlier.. Because it seems like no matter how bad it gets, they come in the next day without that negativity, depression or hatred I'd expect.

And this surprises you because? Having that on a 4 week rotation is different than 5 years of it, day in and day out.

 

[circulus vitios]

True in some aspects. I defer to the expertise of residents but no one in my program tells me to turn and run. I know it sucks... a lot. But it seems like most residents aren't miserable. They have ****ty days/weeks, but it seems like they tolerate it well and work well together (for the most part).
The chiefs/fellows/attendings talk to interns like they've been there and don't treat them like complete ****. Yes, they make them do ****, but seeing what they do makes me think this school is an outlier.
Even after the **** week we went through last week that ended with the worst Friday after, they came back, laughed it off and moved on. I think that's why I wonder if I'm seeing an outlier.. Because it seems like no matter how bad it gets, they come in the next day without that negativity, depression or hatred I'd expect.

Or it's just an act. They have to come in the next day because of their quarter million dollars in student loans, and they can't look angry or hateful because it would earn them a "talking to" with the PD.

 

[DermViser]

Or it's just an act. They have to come in the next day because of their quarter million dollars in student loans, and they can't look angry or hateful because it would earn them a "talking to" with the PD.

Six figure house loan debt without the actual house can do that to you. Your PD could care less about your financial problems. It's a much different world as an intern/resident vs. as a medical student when you're really nothing more than a tourist with no actual responsibility.

 

[KinasePro]

If you have the grades and board scores, it makes more sense to go into neurosurgery. Neurosurgery is only for the best and the brightest, and if you think you have that, there is not a single reason to do general surgery. When I become a neurosurgeon I will know that I sacrificed lifestyle for an ideal cause. It's very difficult to imagine the same for general surgery.

There are many general surgeons who think they are god's gift to earth removing gallbladders. They make such a big deal out of it like they are saving lives every day. But neurosurgeons, they just remove life-threatening hematomas like it's no big deal. Obviously one procedure is more satisfying than the other.

Gen surg saves plenty of lives and takes care of some of the sickest patients in the hospital. Of course, you'd know that if you actually spent a day on a neurosurgery service (neurosurgery put holes in the heads of the poly-trauma trainwrecks that the SICU is keeping alive, remember?).

What is the "ideal" cause anyway? Scraping off subdurals and creating vegetables for your local long term rehab facilities? I kid, I kid... Some of these trolls are just irresistible.

 

[HoboCommander]

Gen surg saves plenty of lives and takes care of some of the sickest patients in the hospital. Of course, you'd know that if you actually spent a day on a neurosurgery service (neurosurgery put holes in the heads of the poly-trauma trainwrecks that the SICU is keeping alive, remember?).

What is the "ideal" cause anyway? Scraping off subdurals and creating vegetables for your local long term rehab facilities? I kid, I kid... Some of these trolls are just irresistible.

I'm not saying that what general surgeons do is not important. We all know it is. General surgeons work hard. I greatly respect them.

But from an medical student's perspective, why go into general surgery when you can pick a surgical subspecialty that is much more interesting and pays 3x as much? Most of the neurosurgeons I know make at least $1 million a year, some $2 million, and love their jobs so much they work higher than residency hours as attendings. Every day is something new, there's so much variety. You use your knowledge of anatomy and physiology. You work with nicer people. You have more say in hospital politics since you generate so much revenue for the hospital.

For students with high board scores, grades, and research experience, it's a no-brainer to pick a subspecialty of surgery. Ortho, ENT, urology, neurosurgery, are all great options with nice people.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

I'm not saying that what general surgeons do is not important. We all know it is. General surgeons work hard. I greatly respect them.

But from an medical student's perspective, why go into general surgery when you can pick a surgical subspecialty that is much more interesting and pays 3x as much? Most of the neurosurgeons I know make at least $1 million a year, some $2 million, and love their jobs so much they work higher than residency hours as attendings. Every day is something new, there's so much variety. You use your knowledge of anatomy and physiology. You work with nicer people. You have more say in hospital politics since you generate so much revenue for the hospital.

For students with high board scores, grades, and research experience, it's a no-brainer to pick a subspecialty of surgery. Ortho, ENT, urology, neurosurgery, are all great options with nice people.

This may be tough for you to believe, with your 6 weeks of total experience in the surgical world, but there are plenty of people who enjoy General Surgery for what it is. It's not a backup plan, it's not something they do because their scores were too low to subspecialize, it's the career they chose for many reasons. There are some people, in fact, who prefer the types of surgeries and the patients they see as general surgeons, rather than those of neurosurgery or any other subspecialty! Neurosurgery is a great specialty for those who are interested in it, but not everyone is. I don't want to make $1 million a year at a job that I'm not passionate about.

I'm sorry your surgery clerkship was not fun for you, and that you seem to have this vendetta towards general surgeons as a result. But please, have some respect for the rest of us and stop talking like you're some sort of expert on all types of surgery based on your M3 clerkship.

 

[KinasePro]

I'm not saying that what general surgeons do is not important. We all know it is. General surgeons work hard. I greatly respect them.

But from an medical student's perspective, why go into general surgery when you can pick a surgical subspecialty that is much more interesting and pays 3x as much? Most of the neurosurgeons I know make at least $1 million a year, some $2 million, and love their jobs so much they work higher than residency hours as attendings. Every day is something new, there's so much variety. You use your knowledge of anatomy and physiology. You work with nicer people. You have more say in hospital politics since you generate so much revenue for the hospital.

For students with high board scores, grades, and research experience, it's a no-brainer to pick a subspecialty of surgery. Ortho, ENT, urology, neurosurgery, are all great options with nice people.

Well for one, neurosurgery isn't all flowers and unicorns either. No offense, but you sound like you have very little clinical experience with neurosurgery. It's a great field for the right type of person, but you need to be pretty comfortable with failure and unhappy patients/sad families if you go into neurosurgery. A lot of their patients don't do well. This alone is enough to deter many top surgical students from the field. (no hate intended to my neurosurgery brethren)

I'm going into a subspecialty but would be perfectly happy in gen surg, especially cardiothoracic or surg onc. Not sure if you noticed, but many of these guys are very successful at making patients better and also making bank. At my hospital, its the surg onc patients who are generously donating large sums to the hospital to open new wings and research programs.

 

[DermViser]

Well for one, neurosurgery isn't all flowers and unicorns either. No offense, but you sound like you have very little clinical experience with neurosurgery. It's a great field for the right type of person, but you need to be pretty comfortable with failure and unhappy patients/sad families if you go into neurosurgery. A lot of their patients don't do well. This alone is enough to deter many top surgical students from the field. (no hate intended to my neurosurgery brethren)

I'm going into a subspecialty but would be perfectly happy in gen surg, especially cardiothoracic or surg onc. Not sure if you noticed, but many of these guys are very successful at making patients better and also making bank. At my hospital, its the surg onc patients who are generously donating large sums to the hospital to open new wings and research programs.

Yeah, I don't think HoboCommander has really truly experienced Neurosurgery. Salary and prestige should not be the only factors. I would even go so far as to say that prestige shouldn't even factor in. Those people who think your specialty is "prestigious" like family, friends, etc. won't be doing call with you.

 

[DermViser]

You have an incredibly small sample size that you are generalizing to the entire field. The neurosurgery residents at my hospital are d***s

I was going to say, neurosurgeons are not necessarily "nicer" whatever that means on SDN and in the medical world. They can be more arrogant and conceited but to be honest, they earned that right. There is a certain prestige that goes with it, but there is a prestige with being a surgeon, in general, in society. It's very well deserved in terms of time commitment, sacrifice during residency, etc.

Give a general surgeon the lifestyle of a urologist or ENT doc and they will be just as nice. Nearly everyone is going to be "mean" with enough sleep deprivation. That's just the nature of the beast. If you want "nice" then be a dentist like @fancymylotus.

 

[fancymylotus]

I was going to say, neurosurgeons are not necessarily "nicer" whatever that means on SDN and in the medical world. They can be more arrogant and conceited but to be honest, they earned that right. There is a certain prestige that goes with it, but there is a prestige with being a surgeon, in general, in society. It's very well deserved in terms of time commitment, sacrifice during residency, etc.

Give a general surgeon the lifestyle of a urologist or ENT doc and they will be just as nice. Nearly everyone is going to be "mean" with enough sleep deprivation. That's just the nature of the beast. If you want "nice" then be a dentist like @fancymylotus.

Lol, you assume that I'm nice at work. I'm not. My BS tolerance is incredibly low, and I generally want my staff and assistants to do things like 15 minutes before the thought crosses my mind to ask them to do it. *Especially* since I don't work as an associate at random places and see exactly how comically high the salaries that we pay these people are. In fact, where tf is my coffee? I need to go yell at someone for my coffee.

 

[DermViser]

Lol, you assume that I'm nice at work. I'm not. My BS tolerance is incredibly low, and I generally want my staff and assistants to do things like 15 minutes before the thought crosses my mind to ask them to do it. *Especially* since I don't work as an associate at random places and see exactly how comically high the salaries that we pay these people are. In fact, where tf is my coffee? I need to go yell at someone for my coffee.

Maybe, it's just me, but for some reason a General Surgeon losing his cool and yelling and is different from a dentist doing it. Mainly bc the latter doesn't have added sleep deprivation (from work) contributing, unlike the surgeon.

 

[fancymylotus]

Maybe, it's just me, but for some reason a General Surgeon losing his cool and yelling and is different from a dentist doing it. Mainly bc the latter doesn't have added sleep deprivation (from work) contributing, unlike the surgeon.

I don't yell. I just demand things. And yeah, I am not waking up for work super early. Although I usually at least sort of halfway wake up when he leaves. So that counts right??

 

[DermViser]

I don't yell. I just demand things. And yeah, I am not waking up for work super early. Although I usually at least sort of halfway wake up when he leaves. So that counts right??

I think most med students are ok with demanding (although there are medical students who are Bambi-esque) vs. getting chewed out. It doesn't count if you're still lying in bed.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I found general surgery very interesting, thank you



Lol, k. Glad to know you're using the absolute 1% highest earners as your benchmark.



Come back in ten years and tell us how you feel



You have an incredibly small sample size that you are generalizing to the entire field. The neurosurgery residents at my hospital are d***s







No it's not.

Even some of our neurosurgery attendings are...unpleasant in many ways.

And not just because they are notorious for having the EM and SICU residents do all of their talking with families. Too busy to show up for a family conference to talk prognosis on the guy who has your handiwork sticking out of his head? Right.

 

[Kahreek]

just checking in, because i do love to see all the surgies reunited in one place.

 

[cut_to_cure]

I love all this back and forth, very entertaining! As an M4 applying into gen surg, I've tossed around the whole "lifestyle vs. interest in my work" debate in my head. And the vast majority of my grief was as a third year when I felt that everything else I rotated in was fun in their own respective ways but A LOT less interesting/fun/captivating than my days on surgery. At the end of the day it's about what you find the most appealing and interesting.

 

[W19]

I'm not saying that what general surgeons do is not important. We all know it is. General surgeons work hard. I greatly respect them.

But from an medical student's perspective, why go into general surgery when you can pick a surgical subspecialty that is much more interesting and pays 3x as much? Most of the neurosurgeons I know make at least $1 million a year, some $2 million, and love their jobs so much they work higher than residency hours as attendings. Every day is something new, there's so much variety. You use your knowledge of anatomy and physiology. You work with nicer people. You have more say in hospital politics since you generate so much revenue for the hospital.

For students with high board scores, grades, and research experience, it's a no-brainer to pick a subspecialty of surgery. Ortho, ENT, urology, neurosurgery, are all great options with nice people.

Are there any physicians these days that make that kind of money if they are not doing plastic surgeries in Hollywood?

 

[fancymylotus]

Are there any physicians these days that make that kind of money if they are not doing plastic surgeries in Hollywood?

I know plenty of dentists that do.

 

[W19]

I know plenty of dentists that do.

They must be dentists who have multiple practice sites and have other people 'making' money for them.

 

[circulus vitios]

Are there any physicians these days that make that kind of money if they are not doing plastic surgeries in Hollywood?

Sure, but the average neurosurgeon "only" makes like $600k/yr.

 

[DermViser]

Sure, but the average neurosurgeon "only" makes like $600k/yr.

Not worth it for that salary.

 

[SoyMilk]

This really isn't directed at you specifically, but it's relevant to the thread and relevant to your specialty:

When I was in medical school on my 3rd year surgery rotation, one of our afternoon educational lectures was entitled "Yes, you can have a life in general surgery."

The lecturer was a breast surgeon, and the gist of her entire presentation was "as long as you go into breast surgery specifically, and do all the right things to build the right kind of practice, you can have a life. Otherwise......ehhhhhhhh."

Yah we had a similar talk in 3rd year.

Allow me to summarize the 1h talk: If you are willing to survive 5y of hell, manage to finish strong, do a fellowship, open an ideal practice, and then find yourself with the stars aligned... then yes you may be able to have a life comparable to other attendings in cushier specialties.

 

[W19]

Not worth it for that salary.

What's wrong with neurosurgery?

 

[circulus vitios]

Not worth it for that salary.

Nothing is worth wasting an average of 88 hours a week x 7-8 years in a hospital.

 

[DermViser]

What's wrong with neurosurgery?

Nothing is wrong with it. I just think a career is more than collecting your paycheck on pay day.

 

[Kaustikos]

And this surprises you because? Having that on a 4 week rotation is different than 5 years of it, day in and day out.

Yes,
But that's the same with any specialty. I've seen more people miserable in other specialties than surgeries. More people in other specialties telling me not to pick theirs. If anything, I'm saying I don't see people in surgery being any less miserable than other specialties like IM.
And 4 weeks? Ive been in the OR at the same location for 4 months not including 3rd year. I'm not saying it changes much but give me SOME credit. lol
I know I'm ultra in love with surgery. But it's not naive love. I just pointed out a broad stroked picture of what parts of surgery appeals to me. I could go longer but you're not interviewing me for a spot in surgery lol

Or it's just an act. They have to come in the next day because of their quarter million dollars in student loans, and they can't look angry or hateful because it would earn them a "talking to" with the PD.

Again,
An act, sure. But everyone does it, it's controlling it that matters. If you're in a residency and openly say it sucks like IM or whatever, then there's a problem. If you're in surgery and can "act" like its not that bad, then I don't see how you can call me wrong for saying its apparently not as miserable as other specialties.

 

[DermViser]

I love all this back and forth, very entertaining! As an M4 applying into gen surg, I've tossed around the whole "lifestyle vs. interest in my work" debate in my head. And the vast majority of my grief was as a third year when I felt that everything else I rotated in was fun in their own respective ways but A LOT less interesting/fun/captivating than my days on surgery. At the end of the day it's about what you find the most appealing and interesting.

It's very easy to like something when you're only doing 8 weeks of it and your clinical responsibilities are next to none. Medical students can't even contribute by having their notes cosigned by the intern/resident/attending now bc of EMRs. Doing a surgery clerkship is so much different than doing 5 years of a General Surgery residency. I think lazymed (ironic name, lol) describes it perfectly below:

Until you've been a surgical resident for a few years, you have no idea how grueling a surgical residency is; the toll it takes on you and your family. You also don't know the satisfaction of going through the process. You won't realize how fast you can learn, how much you can tolerate until you've been through it. Surgical residency is a challenge, but it's not miserable. It is normal to be apprehensive about the training process and lifestyle afterwards as a student, as you can't truly know what you're getting into until you're knee deep. If you know yourself to be hardworking and truly enjoy general surgery, you'll enjoy being a surgeon and a trainee.

Remember even after finishing basic sciences, getting Honors on the surgery clerkship, and doing well potentially on a Surgical Sub-I, doing audition electives, getting LORs, writing the personal statement, the attrition rate is STILL in the 20-25%. So meaning after all that, there is STILL a huge attrition factor. Think about it.

 

[Siggy]

Interestingly enough, our surgery clerkship director told us that he has tried to dissuade every student interested in general surgery from going into it.

He's not malignant by any means though. Very easy to talk to kind of guy and almost always smiling.

It makes sense. I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they should go to medical school unless I knew them really well. Why? Because if some random dude (and yes, random clerkship director counts as a random dude for this) can talk you out of medical school (or, in this case, surgery), then you probably don't have the drive necessary to complete it.

 

[DermViser]

Yes,
But that's the same with any specialty. I've seen more people miserable in other specialties than surgeries. More people in other specialties telling me not to pick theirs. If anything, I'm saying I don't see people in surgery being any less miserable than other specialties like IM.
And 4 weeks? Ive been in the OR at the same location for 4 months not including 3rd year. I'm not saying it changes much but give me SOME credit. lol
I know I'm ultra in love with surgery. But it's not naive love. I just pointed out a broad stroked picture of what parts of surgery appeals to me. I could go longer but you're not interviewing me for a spot in surgery lol

Again,
An act, sure. But everyone does it, it's controlling it that matters. If you're in a residency and openly say it sucks like IM or whatever, then there's a problem. If you're in surgery and can "act" like its not that bad, then I don't see how you can call me wrong for saying its apparently not as miserable as other specialties.

Again -- 3 years is quite different than 5 years. The hours are also very different in terms of IM vs. Surgery. Surgical residency separates those who "like" or "love" Surgery from those who REALLY REALLY love Surgery. There's a reason the attrition rate is so high in this specialty and it's not just bc they're "weak". Not everyone can be like Mimelim. Eventually it becomes "a job" and other factors that will affect your mental health, etc. seep in. That's something you can't appreciate as a medical student when your main objective is an "H" on a transcript.

The problem with surgical residency is you can't "act" for 5 years - unless you're a sociopath. Your true nature and the way you react to stress comes out.

 

[DermViser]

It makes sense. I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they should go to medical school unless I knew them really well. Why? Because if some random dude (and yes, random clerkship director counts as a random dude for this) can talk you out of medical school (or, in this case, surgery), then you probably don't have the drive necessary to complete it.

Or the Surgery clerkship director has very good insight into the specialty and is thus giving good warning to medical students.

 

[Kaustikos]

Again -- 3 years is quite different than 5 years. The hours are also very different in terms of IM vs. Surgery. Surgical residency separates those who "like" or "love" Surgery from those who REALLY REALLY love Surgery. There's a reason the attrition rate is so high in this specialty and it's not just bc they're "weak". Not everyone can be like Mimelim. Eventually it becomes "a job" and other factors that will affect your mental health, etc. seep in. That's something you can't appreciate as a medical student when your main objective is an "H" on a transcript.

The problem with surgical residency is you can't "act" for 5 years - unless you're a sociopath. Your true nature and the way you react to stress comes out.

Right.
First: honors isn't my agenda. I'm not saying I don't care, but I'm saying I've taken these rotations as opening my eyes to what surgery is like. And being treated like an intern. I know I won't ever get the full experience, but Ive been able to at least get an idea of not only how ****ty it can/will be like but also if people think I would be able to tolerate being in a program like this.
I jokingly tell people how I was never a morning person and I'm all of a sudden able to wake up at 3/4am with no issue...
Let's not forget that even the nursing staff in the OR enjoy working with me lol
I don't know what else I can say. Or add. How attendings approach me saying I should do surgery because Im the type of person that can handle the abuse? Or how residents are okay being themselves around me without any concern about hurting my feelings with their sarcasm? Or telling me about how ****ty things are and I'm like "yeah, that does suck, but you're still here. So the good must outweigh the bad". Which is my point. No matter how bad it gets, they seem to have enough good to outweigh it.

 

[DermViser]

Right.
First: honors isn't my agenda. I'm not saying I don't care, but I'm saying I've taken these rotations as opening my eyes to what surgery is like. And being treated like an intern. I know I won't ever get the full experience, but Ive been able to at least get an idea of not only how ****ty it can/will be like but also if people think I would be able to tolerate being in a program like this.
I jokingly tell people how I was never a morning person and I'm all of a sudden able to wake up at 3/4am with no issue...
Let's not forget that even the nursing staff in the OR enjoy working with me lol
I don't know what else I can say. Or add. How attendings approach me saying I should do surgery because Im the type of person that can handle the abuse? Or how residents are okay being themselves around me without any concern about hurting my feelings with their sarcasm? Or telling me about how ****ty things are and I'm like "yeah, that does suck, but you're still here. So the good must outweigh the bad". Which is my point. No matter how bad it gets, they seem to have enough good to outweigh it.

I still think a lot of what you like is quite program specific at your home medical school. Most specialties are good in short bursts but it's the long haul that really matters.

"I should do surgery because Im the type of person that can handle the abuse?"--- I hope this isn't one of your reasons for pursuing surgery and your attendings are sick in the head if they actually say that to you.

 

[jhamaican]

I'm not saying that what general surgeons do is not important. We all know it is. General surgeons work hard. I greatly respect them.

But from an medical student's perspective, why go into general surgery when you can pick a surgical subspecialty that is much more interesting and pays 3x as much? Most of the neurosurgeons I know make at least $1 million a year, some $2 million, and love their jobs so much they work higher than residency hours as attendings. Every day is something new, there's so much variety. You use your knowledge of anatomy and physiology. You work with nicer people. You have more say in hospital politics since you generate so much revenue for the hospital.

For students with high board scores, grades, and research experience, it's a no-brainer to pick a subspecialty of surgery. Ortho, ENT, urology, neurosurgery, are all great options with nice people.

so much delusion in this post.

Most neurosurgeons you know are not making >7 figures.
Neurosurgery has many malignant personalities, I would probably say on par with g surg
Don't lump neurosurg in with ENT or urology, there is a reason neurosurgery is not that competitive relatively speaking...

 

[cut_to_cure]

It's very easy to like something when you're only doing 8 weeks of it and your clinical responsibilities are next to none. Medical students can't even contribute by having their notes cosigned by the intern/resident/attending now bc of EMRs. Doing a surgery clerkship is so much different than doing 5 years of a General Surgery residency. I think lazymed (ironic name, lol) describes it perfectly below:


Remember even after finishing basic sciences, getting Honors on the surgery clerkship, and doing well potentially on a Surgical Sub-I, doing audition electives, getting LORs, writing the personal statement, the attrition rate is STILL in the 20-25%. So meaning after all that, there is STILL a huge attrition factor. Think about it.

No you, and others, have made very good points about how to truly consider surgery vs. other fields. I'm someone who's wanted to do surgery since I was a little kid (having no idea about anything obviously, considering I don't come from a medical family) and I've done a lot of inside snooping about what an attending's life is like (via close mentors and such) and even after all of that, I'm still super excited about general surgery, more so than anything else I've seen or done. When I was doing my Sub-I months I made sure to do the q3-4 calls just like my residents and I would routinely login under their names to help writing notes (shhhh don't tell anyone). Even attendings would have me login under their name in clinic to just write notes on my patients and click through all the endless things like level of care, diagnoses, reviewing allergies and meds, and all the other crap. So, although I have no experienced residency and fully expect it to be the hardest thing I've ever done, I'd like to think I've gotten a fair glimpse at my life in the next 5-10yrs to make an educated decision on my career plans.

My biggest gripe in third year was that I was newly married and my wife soon thereafter became pregnant so I had to do a ton of introspection about what I wanted out of life, whether it was just money and easy hours so I could be home "more" or continue down the path I started and see it through because it was the only thing that made me happy. I'll only know the brilliance or folly of my decision this time next year or in two years, but I don't think someone going into a cushier field only for the lifestyle feels anymore comfortable than I do looking forward to residency.

Sry for the long-winded response.

 

[DermViser]

No you, and others, have made very good points about how to truly consider surgery vs. other fields. I'm someone who's wanted to do surgery since I was a little kid (having no idea about anything obviously, considering I don't come from a medical family) and I've done a lot of inside snooping about what an attending's life is like (via close mentors and such) and even after all of that, I'm still super excited about general surgery, more so than anything else I've seen or done. When I was doing my Sub-I months I made sure to do the q3-4 calls just like my residents and I would routinely login under their names to help writing notes (shhhh don't tell anyone). Even attendings would have me login under their name in clinic to just write notes on my patients and click through all the endless things like level of care, diagnoses, reviewing allergies and meds, and all the other crap. So, although I have no experienced residency and fully expect it to be the hardest thing I've ever done, I'd like to think I've gotten a fair glimpse at my life in the next 5-10yrs to make an educated decision on my career plans.

My biggest gripe in third year was that I was newly married and my wife soon thereafter became pregnant so I had to do a ton of introspection about what I wanted out of life, whether it was just money and easy hours so I could be home "more" or continue down the path I started and see it through because it was the only thing that made me happy. I'll only know the brilliance or folly of my decision this time next year or in two years, but I don't think someone going into a cushier field only for the lifestyle feels anymore comfortable than I do looking forward to residency.

Sry for the long-winded response.

Not long winded at all. I only hope the best for you and hope it truly is a calling for you and something you enjoy. To often I see people who like Surgery but aren't willing to sacrifice during surgery residency and make no mistake it is a huge sacrifice. All the more reason these intangibles need to be ferreted out BEFORE you go into the match, not 1-2 years into GS residency. It is difficult for a med student to get that picture no matter how hard they try to.

While someone going for something cushier might be less comfortable, a good night's sleep, ability to eat/drink without inhaling food/drink can mean the difference between sanity and insanity sometimes.