Is Georgia School of Ortho worth it for 300k?

[011110]

If you are graduating from Georgia School of Ortho with 300k in debt is it worth it to be an ortho vs GP with no loans?

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[Traag]

Depends. Are you willing to go the rest of your career with your colleagues treating you with silent judgement if not outright contempt on top of that 300k price tag?

Saying that "school" is a bad actor in the field is an understatement.

 

[011110]

Definitely interested to see the results. Maybe it will help others too in the future to see if it is worth it for them or not. I already paid off my dental school loans, but the situation can be even worse if you have more loans for dental school.

 

[SchwarzKorkhaus]

It is a disgrace that the program even exists. Just a cash grab

 

[011110]

36 kids a year. I make 250k as a GP. I wonder how much you can expect to make as an ortho 5 years out.

 

[dentistrydmd]

36 kids a year. I make 250k as a GP. I wonder how much you can expect to make as an ortho 5 years out.

With all the new aligner entrants, not nearly as much as it used to be I take it.

 

[Blueshirts]

Dental town had a new thread, since they doubled their class from 18 to 36; a couple people wondering how they will manage to get all those additional patient referrals, just something to consider in the broad scheme of things

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

300k for a two year program, right? (Edit: 36 months, yuck, even worse opportunity cost) It’s already outrageous how many dental schools that charge over $100k per year to be a GP. At least with this it’s some income bump and you won’t have to drill teeth anymore if that’s what you’re after. Most GP’s won’t know or care what the school is known for but your future fellow orthodontists may have stronger feelings.

If you have $300K+ from dental school already, probably a terrible idea. Less than that, it’s pay-to-play if you really want to do ortho. Financially you might be better off spending three years and $300k starting a practice.

Bigger issue is, 16 more people per year is like 4 small programs opening. If that keeps happening, and GP Invisalign and Smile direct, the prospects for ortho get stretched thinner.

 

[dentistrydmd]

Dental town had a new thread, since they doubled their class from 18 to 36; a couple people wondering how they will manage to get all those additional patient referrals, just something to consider in the broad scheme of things

This is a good point. You will come out with the ortho certificate, but how do they manage to double the student population and not have issues with the case-load. You may not learn a whole lot compared to other programs.

 

[gryffindor]

300k for a two year program, right?

It's a 36 month program.

 

[eastcoast2021]

the five who voted yes gotta be students, faculty, or admin there hahah

 

[Traag]

the five who voted yes gotta be students, faculty, or admin there hahah

Just look at their Google reviews. The program has been open, what, a couple years? They somehow have 220+ google reviews... as a new specialty clinic... with a 4.7 average. That's 2-4x all of the dental schools I just googled that see orders of magnitudes more patients and have been around forever.

Their entire scam centers around promoting a false sense of legitimacy pushed forward by outrageous marketing and what seems to be a team of astroturfers. They sent an excessively fancy letter to every single member of our DDS class imploring people to apply and puffing everyone up as exceptional applicants.

 

[Advance]

Just look at their Google reviews. The program has been open, what, a couple years? They somehow have 220+ google reviews... as a new specialty clinic... with a 4.7 average. That's 2-4x all of the dental schools I just googled that see orders of magnitudes more patients and have been around forever.

Their entire scam centers around promoting a false sense of legitimacy pushed forward by outrageous marketing and what seems to be a team of astroturfers. They sent an excessively fancy letter to every single member of our DDS class imploring people to apply and puffing everyone up as exceptional applicants.

Haha I got that letter too. They’re really trying hard to take in the money... It’s probably working too.

 

[Likkriue]

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

Read carefully pages 19 and beyond

 

[011110]

Brutal report. Poll is like 80% in favor not going and staying a GP.

 

[Advance]

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

Read carefully pages 19 and beyond

Interesting report. Who knew finding a job as an ortho was that tough. Some of my ortho friends mentioned it but I just figured they were a rare case.

 

[2TH MVR]

https://www.aaoinfo.org/sites/default/files/Orthodontic%20Workforce%20Report_April%202018.pdf

Read carefully pages 19 and beyond

Times have definitely changed. Years ago ... a new ortho could simply do some simple demographics or find a GP or Pedo practice to open next to .... and you would be successful. It's obviously not that simple now. Especially in the saturated areas. In those urban areas ... there are just so many new players (Corps, GPs doing aligners, etc., etc.) offering ortho services. And getting those Corp ortho jobs is very competative.

As the report mentions. If a new grad goes to a saturated area .... they will be competing with many other orthos for those jobs. Buy or start a practice? Sure. But odds are the GPs around you will be doing aligners and if that is a good area ..... a dental Corp will locate there. There are some ortho practices (multiple locations, huge marketing and advertising budgets) that are run like a small Corp that do well. If you are a single ortho trying to practice in a traditional ortho practice ... it will be difficult in a saturated area unless you practice like CharlesTweed (low fee).

My advice. Go rural or semi rural. You may need to practice out of many offices, but the opportunities to practice as a traditional ortho will be better there.

 

[AONLINE]

Is 300k in dental school tuition worth it to be a GP? Most members here say yes. So assuming one does not have any existing debt, why is 300k not worth it to become an orthodontist? Don’t orthodontists get paid more than GPs even as associates? You guys were discussing how hard it is to find a job as an orthodontist. Wouldn’t GPs have even a harder time finding jobs, just because there are many times more GPs than specialists? Just playing the devil’s advocate here.

 

[011110]

Is 300k in dental school tuition worth it to be a GP? Most members here say yes. So assuming one does not have any existing debt, why is 300k not worth it to become an orthodontist? Don’t orthodontists get paid more than GPs even as associates? You guys were discussing how hard it is to find a job as an orthodontist. Wouldn’t GPs have even a harder time finding jobs, just because there are many times more GPs than specialists? Just playing the devil’s advocate here.

Its pretty easy finding a GP in an area you want to live. Might not be the best job, but you can get one anywhere. Ortho I have noticed has limited jobs, and you may not be able to get a full time schedule.

 

[endodonia]

And getting those Corp ortho jobs is very competative.

I did not realize corp ortho jobs are hard to come by. I get 1-2 emails a week for GP jobs all over the country. sad.

Is 300k in dental school tuition worth it to be a GP? Most members here say yes. So assuming one does not have any existing debt, why is 300k not worth it to become an orthodontist? Don’t orthodontists get paid more than GPs even as associates? You guys were discussing how hard it is to find a job as an orthodontist. Wouldn’t GPs have even a harder time finding jobs, just because there are many times more GPs than specialists? Just playing the devil’s advocate here.

I dont think you're playing devils advocate but are closer to comparing apples to apples (not entirely, but close). I agree with you- I presume many of the people who voted "no, not worth it" are paying the same ($300k+) to become a GP. Now to be fair, once you have a DMD/DDS you can make $120k+ or buy a practice, invest, compound interest, etc etc. vs not work and go 300k in debt to do ortho. I'm no mathematician but the real opportunity cost is probably like $850K (made that number up). the worst part of that program is its 3 years= another year of lost income. if it was 2 years it'd be significantly better.

I'm a practicing dentist and I actually voted "yes" but I am biased because I don't like being a general dentist. you live one life and I learned $ didn't buy me happiness. I'd rather be an ortho making $150k/year vs a GP making more. the most significant part of the OP's question was : They have no debt. obviously go to the cheapest program or the one that pays. I think what is most interesting is the argument for ortho has always been Lifestyle, it sounds like that may be going away. Not sure how it can ever be worse than a GP... again, just my bias.

Ortho I have noticed has limited jobs, and you may not be able to get a full time schedule.

that's too bad. dont misconstrue my "yes" vote above as applauding Georgia School of Orthodontics. I dont mean to offend anyone but new schools and new residencies do not help the profession of dentistry or patients (tough argument, debatable), but helps insurance companies and corporations. I digress.

 

[mmc12]

Depends. Are you willing to go the rest of your career with your colleagues treating you with silent judgement if not outright contempt on top of that 300k price tag?

Saying that "school" is a bad actor in the field is an understatement.

I wonder how the recent grads from the program are doing in terms of finding jobs...

 

[011110]

I wonder how the recent grads from the program are doing in terms of finding jobs...

some had parents that are orthos so they went back with their parents. Just gotta hope the practice is busy enough to support income for 2. Ive heard of countless experiences where new grad comes into dads office and there’s not enough patients for both.

also, one works for a pedo I think near my community I think for $1000 a day. I’m no where near georgia so these 36 kids graduating will set up shop around the country so if you think the program won’t oversaturate your community you’re wrong if you live in the US

 

[2TH MVR]

Depends. Are you willing to go the rest of your career with your colleagues treating you with silent judgement if not outright contempt on top of that 300k price tag?

Saying that "school" is a bad actor in the field is an understatement.

I totally agree. 36 residents? Geez. My residency accepted 4. There was real pride in knowing you were part of a very small group of residents.
Programs like this just further saturates a once proud exclusive specialty. But in the real world. No one will care. Seriously. No one will care. Patients won't care. What your colleagues feel about it won't matter in the real world.

If you are graduating from Georgia School of Ortho with 300k in debt is it worth it to be an ortho vs GP with no loans?

No one can answer your question except for you. If your dream is to be an orthodontist. Then do it. If your dream is to make more money. Then an emphatic NO. Not a huge fan of the concept of lost opportunity costs. No one can predict the future. Your debt free I assume. Not sure if you have a family, home to support.

Even though the economic times may have changed for orthos. Nothing changes the fact that orthodontics is a desirable profession. To this day ... knowing what I know .... I would still be an orthodontist.

 

[011110]

I totally agree. 36 residents? Geez. My residency accepted 4. There was real pride in knowing you were part of a very small group of residents.
Programs like this just further saturates a once proud exclusive specialty. But in the real world. No one will care. Seriously. No one will care. Patients won't care. What your colleagues feel about it won't matter in the real world.




No one can answer your question except for you. If your dream is to be an orthodontist. Then do it. If your dream is to make more money. Then an emphatic NO. Not a huge fan of the concept of lost opportunity costs. No one can predict the future. Your debt free I assume. Not sure if you have a family, home to support.

Even though the economic times may have changed for orthos. Nothing changes the fact that orthodontics is a desirable profession. To this day ... knowing what I know .... I would still be an orthodontist.

Ah, as for me you are right, debt free which is awesome. No kids or home yet. Definitely enjoy ortho as I do both fixed and aligners in GP practice. I would be happier doing ortho, but not at the opportunity cost and the stresses that seem to come with getting your feet off the ground in ortho. My family’s happiness is my priority, and me going back to some 3 year residency with no pay with 5-10 years struggling as an ortho is selfish and unfair to them. The better play for me is to buy a cash flowing GP office that does no ortho, and do as much as I want in the practice.

 

[2TH MVR]

Ah, as for me you are right, debt free which is awesome. No kids or home yet. Definitely enjoy ortho as I do both fixed and aligners in GP practice. I would be happier doing ortho, but not at the opportunity cost and the stresses that seem to come with getting your feet off the ground in ortho. My family’s happiness is my priority, and me going back to some 3 year residency with no pay with 5-10 years struggling as an ortho is selfish and unfair to them. The better play for me is to buy a cash flowing GP office that does no ortho, and do as much as I want in the practice.

Sounds like you were never interested in attending this school. Not sure what the point of your thread is. Maybe you were looking for validation for youself on not attending there. Like I posted earlier .... I'm not a fan of these for profit institutions, but for that dentist whose life dream is to be an ortho (has no DS debt, financially secure, no family, hates general dentistry, etc. etc.) .... it's a choice. Maybe not the best financial choice, but a personal choice.

 

[011110]

Sounds like you were never interested in attending this school. Not sure what the point of your thread is. Maybe you were looking for validation for youself on not attending there. Like I posted earlier .... I'm not a fan of these for profit institutions, but for that dentist whose life dream is to be an ortho (has no DS debt, financially secure, no family, hates general dentistry, etc. etc.) .... it's a choice. Maybe not the best financial choice, but a personal choice.

My point was validation and also showing that 81% of people think going is dumb. Maybe this thread helps one kid in the future avoid plunging 1 million+ in debt.

 

[wetvet]

36 kids a year. I make 250k as a GP. I wonder how much you can expect to make as an ortho 5 years out.

I saw a chart comparing a specialty, ortho salary, student loan debt payoff, vs GP salary, student loan debt payoff over time.
I think Travis* at Student Loan Planner, St Louis, MO web site had posted it. It took longer than 5 years for you to come out ahead
money wise. In the long run the salaries were substantially different but it was many years down the road.
I think a lot depends on the individual's goals. I know 1 dentist that is very happy being in a solo practice with a few chairs, working 4 days a week, vs another Dentist that graduated less than 10 years ago and already owns 17 clinics,
*Travis was on DENTALTOWN podcast, you can view it on You Tube.

 

[charlestweed]

If you are graduating from Georgia School of Ortho with 300k in debt is it worth it to be an ortho vs GP with no loans?

You make $250k because you are an experienced GP. Most new grad GPs who work 5 days/wk only make $120-150k/year as an associate. If a new grad ortho is willing to put in the same number of work day per week (by traveling to work at multiple offices) as a new grad GP, he/she should make close to $300k/year…..$1100/day x 22 days/month x 12 months/year. If an ortho has his own office + working P/T for a corp, he should make a lot more….and the additional 4300 student loan debt for attending Georgia ortho shouldn’t be a big issue. The job is much easier and the stress level is way less.

 

[Likkriue]

You make $250k because you are an experienced GP. Most new grad GPs who work 5 days/wk only make $120-150k/year as an associate. If a new grad ortho is willing to put in the same number of work day per week (by traveling to work at multiple offices) as a new grad GP, he/she should make close to $300k/year…..$1100/day x 22 days/month x 12 months/year. If an ortho has his own office + working P/T for a corp, he should make a lot more….and the additional 4300 student loan debt for attending Georgia ortho shouldn’t be a big issue. The job is much easier and the stress level is way less.

Seems like those traveling jobs are getting rarer and rarer to find. If you read the 2017 workforce report the numbers for new graduates are very different from what you posted. Corps rather have experienced orthodontists then new graduates and they have no trouble filling those spots. Extremely hard for orthodontists to share offices because there are a limited amount of patients to see per area. 100 mile drives 1 way are very common.

 

[2TH MVR]

Seems like those traveling jobs are getting rarer and rarer to find. If you read the 2017 workforce report the numbers for new graduates are very different from what you posted. Corps rather have experienced orthodontists then new graduates and they have no trouble filling those spots. Extremely hard for orthodontists to share offices because there are a limited amount of patients to see per area. 100 mile drives 1 way are very common.

It's not all doom and gloom for these new orthos. When I graduated in the early 90's .... there were hardly any opportunities available in the metro Phx area. Very few Corp entities. At the time ... there were very few ortho practices for sale since they were doing so well. No associateships either.

After being unemployed for 6-12 months ... I literally had to go out and BUY myself a job. Bought into a partnership. I literally had no other options.

Fast forward to today. TONS of Corp entities. GP and pedo offices hiring orthos. Many more opportunities for a job than I had. I believe some of these new orthos are complaining because they thought it would be easy. It's not easy for any new "insert career" to get started. That's life.

New orthos complaining about travelling . Come on. After 18 months of a partnership ... I bought the entire ortho practice and started two more. One was in a rural town almost 3 hours of commuting BOTH ways. The other office was an hour each way. This was back in the early 90's.

You want to know why some Corps won't hire new grads? Because new grads are not stable. They are always looking for a better job or to start a private practice. Completely understandable. That's why alot of Corps rather hire someone like myself (late 50's, financially secure) who aren't looking to go anywhere.

Rather than complain on an AAO website ..... these new orthos need to hit the road. Find some PT Corp, associateship jobs, work out of GP/pedo offices, etc. and look to start a small start up private practice.

 

[mmc12]

I’ve heard of many recent ortho grads who aren’t able to find full time work as orthodontists (maybe only one or two days a week) so they actually have to work as GPs on the other days... what’s the point of spending 2/3 years in specialty training with hundreds of thousands of extra dollars in student loans when you end up just working as a GP for the most part?

 

[charlestweed]

It's not all doom and gloom for these new orthos. When I graduated in the early 90's .... there were hardly any opportunities available in the metro Phx area. Very few Corp entities. At the time ... there were very few ortho practices for sale since they were doing so well. No associateships either.

After being unemployed for 6-12 months ... I literally had to go out and BUY myself a job. Bought into a partnership. I literally had no other options.

Fast forward to today. TONS of Corp entities. GP and pedo offices hiring orthos. Many more opportunities for a job than I had. I believe some of these new orthos are complaining because they thought it would be easy. It's not easy for any new "insert career" to get started. That's life.

New orthos complaining about travelling . Come on. After 18 months of a partnership ... I bought the entire ortho practice and started two more. One was in a rural town almost 3 hours of commuting BOTH ways. The other office was an hour each way. This was back in the early 90's.

You want to know why some Corps won't hire new grads? Because new grads are not stable. They are always looking for a better job or to start a private practice. Completely understandable. That's why alot of Corps rather hire someone like myself (late 50's, financially secure) who aren't looking to go anywhere.

Rather than complain on an AAO website ..... these new orthos need to hit the road. Find some PT Corp, associateship jobs, work out of GP/pedo offices, etc. and look to start a small start up private practice.

Well said. If one is not picky and is willing to travel, there are plenty of jobs available. It's a big misconception that the older dentists/orthodontists, who graduated in the 90s and 2000s didn't have to work hard and automatically became rich overnight. I knew an ortho who had to fly to AZ (from Utah) to work for Western Dental....and he graduated a few years ahead of me. My former classmate, who is an endo, has had to take a train from Irvine to work at an office in Pasadena. My wife's co-resident took a Nevada board (used to be very hard to get a license there) and flew back and forth between NV and CA. For my offices to get more patients, I have to charge low fee, work on the weekends, and accept low pay insurance plans (HMO, medicaid) etc. To keep the overhead low, I hire fewer staff and have to do many of the work at the office myself. To pay down the debts faster, I have to maintain the P/T job at the corp. I thought I could just quit the corp job and work for myself F/T once the student loans were paid off but a lot of things require money.....real estate investments, savings for retirement, kids' future college education, new cars etc.

In the last 2 wks, I've had some free time to fix things around the house..... painting the patio, clear out the bushes, planting trees/flowers, adding more sprinkler heads etc. Man, it's been a very tough 2 weeks. My back and my hands are sore but I am happy because my house and my backyard look better. I can't imagine how hard it must be for the full time plumbers and gardeners who have to all these manual labors every single day for the rest of their lives. That's why I kept telling the kids to go to school to become a doctor or dentist. Working as a GP is way easier. Traveling to work at multiple offices as an ortho is way easier.

 

[blablabla1]

Well said. If one is not picky and is willing to travel, there are plenty of jobs available. It's a big misconception that the older dentists/orthodontists, who graduated in the 90s and 2000s didn't have to work hard and automatically became rich overnight. I knew an ortho who had to fly to AZ (from Utah) to work for Western Dental....and he graduated a few years ahead of me. My former classmate, who is an endo, has had to take a train from Irvine to work at an office in Pasadena. My wife's co-resident took a Nevada board (used to be very hard to get a license there) and flew back and forth between NV and CA. For my offices to get more patients, I have to charge low fee, work on the weekends, and accept low pay insurance plans (HMO, medicaid) etc. To keep the overhead low, I hire fewer staff and have to do many of the work at the office myself. To pay down the debts faster, I have to maintain the P/T job at the corp. I thought I could just quit the corp job and work for myself F/T once the student loans were paid off but a lot of things require money.....real estate investments, savings for retirement, kids' future college education, new cars etc.

In the last 2 wks, I've had some free time to fix things around the house..... painting the patio, clear out the bushes, planting trees/flowers, adding more sprinkler heads etc. Man, it's been a very tough 2 weeks. My back and my hands are sore but I am happy because my house and my backyard look better. I can't imagine how hard it must be for the full time plumbers and gardeners who have to all these manual labors every single day for the rest of their lives. That's why I kept telling the kids to go to school to become a doctor or dentist. Working as a GP is way easier. Traveling to work at multiple offices as an ortho is way easier.

Well said, it’s all about perspective.

 

[Firm]

Not unless you have a job or an office waiting for you upon graduation.