Is Georgia School of Orthodontics worth it for all my savings?

[jobayanks29]

Hi guys,
I have been a dentist for about 10 years. I paid off all of my student loans and have been working as a GP. I have about 400k saved across all of my accounts (more like 500k since the markets are down now). I’m not a super skilled GP, and work as an associate. I have taken tons of ortho CE and do many cases, it’s really the only part of dentistry I like. GSO is just expensive and will eat away all of my savings. When I get out of residency at 40 I’ll essentially be right where I was at the end of dental school. Albeit I make 200k as a GP, so being an orthodontist I would expect an income bump to 300k, but with no savings now. It is likely to take 7-10 years to recoup my investment. Is it worth it to go?

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[EVILDENTIST]

Perspective from an international dentist who'd considered GSO. For me it'd be closer to 650k given the higher tuition.
(Previous stats - 2018 grad, GPR program at home uni, implant residency, Ortho mini residency at UAB and I run an aligner startup in India).
GSO at 400 is already not the best idea financially speaking
(Some experience as I also got a business degree from UCSC and I've been a 3 time startup founder).
If you're really married to doing Ortho then why not something like JU? It's a year less and like 95k/year tuition.
If you aren't married to Ortho necessarily, why not just aligners?
From what I've seen, corp jobs pay anywhere between 350 and 450. My understanding is that there's no guarantee on having stable Ortho assistants either so your workflow would be inconsistent ( just my $ 0.2).
Older members like Tooth mover, Cold front and Charles Tweed have excellent discussion threads as well that I'm sure you've seen as well.
Given that there's a recession that's already here, I'd be deeply uncomfortable spending cash in hand at this juncture.

I guess if I had to do it, I'd park the 400k in a liquid fund, speak with your banker and see if you can loan out the tuition at a lower than market rate against it and moonlight during the weekends to supplement cash flow/ cost of living.

Even then, given the economy and the cost..... I'd think about it for a few months.
They always seem to have some spots that go empty so you'd be okay applying later on as well.
Again, I say this as someone who's not originally US trained and has had less time in practice than you have. I have however spent quite some time considering GSO and wanted to share my conclusions.

 

[DustFreeEraser]

If your goal is to become an orthodontist, then it would be prudent to consider not getting in on your first try, second try, or ever.
In that case, is it better to become an orthodontist a year or two earlier at a higher tuition?
Also consider the tuition of other schools, which at that point you should consider the difference between the schools and GSO, rather than just GSO’s cost.

You can choose to apply to low tuition/stipend schools as long as you are okay being a Gp until you get in, nothing wrong with that. Just a nuisance to keep getting reference letters and completing the application on a yearly basis, based on how competitive your ideal schools are.

 

[D1Bound]

Cue @BigTimeHoosier

His enemy, the great GSO

 

[charlestweed]

With your current GP’s income of $200k/year, you are able to save $40k a year…. $400k in 10 years. When you become an ortho and make $300k/year, you should be able to save $140k a year. So after 3 years of working as an associate ortho, you should re-gain your $400k that you use to pay for your ortho residency at GSO. And the job should be more enjoyable than what you are doing right now.

 

[juniordentist]

No that's stupid math.

He said in 10 years he paid off his student loans and saved 400k. So it could be more like 800k he has actually saved over 10 years. So right now, he saves 80k a year. Probably more tbh as he earns more now than when he was a new grad. But let's say 80k to keep it simple.

If he goes to ortho school he will earn an extra 100k after grad, close to half of that would be taxed. So left with 50k after tax. So he would save 80k plus 50k a year. Total 130k a year.

Save 80k a year as a GP
Save 130k a year as an ortho

BUT opportunity cost

3 years missed GP earnings. 80k a year savings, and 400k earning dividends for 3 years (let's say 10k a year after tax).

So that's 670k total.

So the real question is, in 3 years would you rather be:

a GP earning 200k a year with 670k investments
Or ortho earning 300k a year 0 investments

The math doesn't lie. Stay where you are for the better financial position

 

[juniordentist]

Also, 670k could earn 35000 a year if returning 5%
So then it's a question of GP 200k plus 35k = 235k vs ortho at 300k.

You're only earning an extra 65k a year as an ortho, only taking home half that after tax.

Personally I don't think that's worth it

 

[EVILDENTIST]

With your current GP’s income of $200k/year, you are able to save $40k a year…. $400k in 10 years. When you become an ortho and make $300k/year, you should be able to save $140k a year. So after 3 years of working as an associate ortho, you should re-gain your $400k that you use to pay for your ortho residency at GSO. And the job should be more enjoyable than what you are doing right now.

Could I PM you with a question about Ortho residency though?

 

[2TH MVR]

Cue @BigTimeHoosier

His enemy, the great GSO

He's staying quiet. Something about a watch.

 

[DustFreeEraser]

Sheer number wise, no specialty is worth it if money is your only priority.

 

[deleted1047421]

I’ve met a number of specialists who came back to school after being successful general dentists and have practiced a number of years prior.

One had owned two dental practices and sold both of them to come back to do ortho. He never regretted his decision and was probably slightly older than you.

However for that individual, the school was not this expensive and probably paid him a stipend from what I recall.

If your not married with kids and are willing to take the financial hit (lost opportunity cost), and most importantly love ortho, then go for it.

A lot of dentists and specialists I know didn’t have to spend this much for residency and got a head start (if you will) over people like you. However their life savings and net worth were decimated from a divorce.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Why not apply to “legitimate” programs for a cycle and see what happens? If it doesn’t work out, maybe at that point you make a deal with the devil.

Big Hoss

 

[Lemillion]

Another thought, ever considered a ortho internship? UF, Eastman,Seton Hill, UTSA are some that I have heard. Gives you some more experience, increases competitiveness especially since those programs have their own ortho residency. I have met people that did that for a year and they received more interviews/got in as a result.

Some programs out there are not as expensive as GSO but are still pricey (250-300K). However, I feel with less residents at those programs they get more time dedicated for them. Not sure how 45 incoming residents a year for GSO will get their training done. That’s my concern.

 

[charlestweed]

I’ve met a number of specialists who came back to school after being successful general dentists and have practiced a number of years prior.

One had owned two dental practices and sold both of them to come back to do ortho. He never regretted his decision and was probably slightly older than you.

However for that individual, the school was not this expensive and probably paid him a stipend from what I recall.

If your not married with kids and are willing to take the financial hit (lost opportunity cost), and most importantly love ortho, then go for it.

A lot of dentists and specialists I know didn’t have to spend this much for residency and got a head start (if you will) over people like you. However their life savings and net worth were decimated from a divorce.

These specialists had worked in the real world for a number of years and they realized that practicing general dentistry wasn’t easy. That’s why they went back to school to specialize. I had only worked as a GP for a year. To me, practicing general dentistry wasn’t too bad but practicing ortho is 100x easier and much more fun.

It’s, indeed, a huge price tag for attending this GSO program. But the OP will be debt free after graduation. Many today new grad orthodontists owe around $6-700k in student loans (DDS + ortho residency loans). Being debt-free should put him 5-6 years ahead of his colleagues who have student loans.

 

[charlestweed]

Another thought, ever considered a ortho internship? UF, Eastman,Seton Hill, UTSA are some that I have heard. Gives you some more experience, increases competitiveness especially since those programs have their own ortho residency. I have met people that did that for a year and they received more interviews/got in as a result.

Some programs out there are not as expensive as GSO but are still pricey (250-300K). However, I feel with less residents at those programs they get more time dedicated for them. Not sure how 45 incoming residents a year for GSO will get their training done. That’s my concern.

The problem with doing this route is you will lose another year (a $300k income earning potential)…..unless you go a 2-yr program like Eastman. And there is no guarantee that you will get in. The OP is already in his late 30s. It's better to apply everywhere (including the GSO program) and see what happens.

The class size, the students to instructor ratio, and the training quality don’t matter. The OP will receive an ortho certificate, which all the employers/insurance companies care about, in the end. The employers don’t care where you went to school…..they only care about your ability to produce for them. You’ll gain the experience from treating a lot of patients. Working for a busy corp office is a good way to gain the experience.

 

[charlestweed]

Could I PM you with a question about Ortho residency though?

Yes

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Not sure how 45 incoming residents a year for GSO will get their training done. That’s my concern.

I legitimately have no idea how they can provide an “adequate” education to such a large class.

Big Hoss

 

[D1Bound]

Another thought, ever considered a ortho internship? UF, Eastman,Seton Hill, UTSA are some that I have heard. Gives you some more experience, increases competitiveness especially since those programs have their own ortho residency. I have met people that did that for a year and they received more interviews/got in as a result.

Some programs out there are not as expensive as GSO but are still pricey (250-300K). However, I feel with less residents at those programs they get more time dedicated for them. Not sure how 45 incoming residents a year for GSO will get their training done. That’s my concern.

I thought it was 36. 45 RESIDENTS A CLASS!?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I thought it was 36. 45 RESIDENTS A CLASS!?

That’s almost the class size for some dental schools.

Big Hoss

 

[D1Bound]

Another thought, ever considered a ortho internship? UF, Eastman,Seton Hill, UTSA are some that I have heard. Gives you some more experience, increases competitiveness especially since those programs have their own ortho residency. I have met people that did that for a year and they received more interviews/got in as a result.

Some programs out there are not as expensive as GSO but are still pricey (250-300K). However, I feel with less residents at those programs they get more time dedicated for them. Not sure how 45 incoming residents a year for GSO will get their training done. That’s my concern.

I just checked. In September CODA allowed them to raise the class size. Orthodontics used to be the golden specialty but now there’s basically an entire dental school made to train orthodontists, it’s not looking good. There’s no way I’d want to do ortho with this happening.

 

[D1Bound]

That’s almost the class size for some dental schools.

Big Hoss

That’s the size of University of Utah I think, Maryland and Harvard are small like that too, this needs to be stopped

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

That’s the size of University of Utah I think, Maryland and Harvard are small like that too, this needs to be stopped

I don’t know how it can be stopped as long as all these new diploma mill dental schools keep popping up, only increasing the pipeline of applicants to scam residencies like this.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I don’t know how it can be stopped as long as all these new diploma mill dental schools keep popping up, only increasing the pipeline of applicants to scam residencies like this.

Big Hoss

Maybe GSO should just cut to the chase and create a combined 6 year dental school plus ortho residency. It’ll only set you back a cool $1,500,000.

You know what’s really disgusting about that thought? They would still have people applying.

Big Hoss

 

[D1Bound]

Maybe GSO should just cut to the chase and create a combined 6 year dental school plus ortho residency. It’ll only set you back a cool $1,500,000.

You know what’s really disgusting about that thought? They would still have people applying.

Big Hoss

Undergrad+DDS/DMD+Ortho certificate 8 year program with a 6 month MPH option

 

[charlestweed]

I just checked. In September CODA allowed them to raise the class size. Orthodontics used to be the golden specialty but now there’s basically an entire dental school made to train orthodontists, it’s not looking good. There’s no way I’d want to do ortho with this happening.

Despite this increase in class size (and openings of new programs in recent years), new grad orthos are still very picky. It takes my corp more than 8 months to find an orthodontist to work at 3 of their busy offices. They had hired 3 different orthos but none of them wanted to stay. My colleagues and I had had to take turn to help cover for these 3 offices. A lot of patients have complained because they see a different orthodontist at every monthly visit. Last month, they found another ortho. Hopefully, this guy will stay.

My corp pays the new grad ortho $1400/day + bonus ($75 per new start). Twenty years ago, when I graduated, this same corp paid me $800/day, which was about half of what today new grad orthos make.

 

[gryffindor]

@charlestweed why do you think the new grads keep quitting the corp job?

 

[charlestweed]

@charlestweed why do you think the new grads keep quitting the corp job?

They couldn't handle high patient volume due to lack of experience. They didn’t want to do the same day start (consult, take records and bond the same day) because they didn’t have enough confidence and wanted to spend more time to study the case. They were afraid of getting sued. They didn’t want to take over certain cases that were started by their predecessors. They constantly complained about overbooking and lack of assistants. They either quit the job or the corp manager let them go. These were what the assistants at the corp told me.

 

[2TH MVR]

@charlestweed why do you think the new grads keep quitting the corp job?

They last about 2 years and then they are gone. For a YOUNG new grad .... a Corp job is fine temporarily to gain experience and speed, but at the end of the day ..... it is a DEAD END job.

Corp is perfect for myself, but I am older. Part time essentially.

Like Charles mentioned. Coming in a busy, large Corp office and taking over from other orthodontists is ..... tough. I mean. Who (orthos) out there like to take on transfer cases. Most of us don't. For a young, new grad ..... most of his patients will essentially be transfer cases .... that he/she needs to complete ON TIME. This isn't residency where you can treat these patients forever. It's a recipe for failure.

 

[P7898]

With your current GP’s income of $200k/year, you are able to save $40k a year…. $400k in 10 years. When you become an ortho and make $300k/year, you should be able to save $140k a year. So after 3 years of working as an associate ortho, you should re-gain your $400k that you use to pay for your ortho residency at GSO. And the job should be more enjoyable than what you are doing right now.

False. Grossly under estimating costs of living and taxes. Assuming OP has no dependents or expenses.

Financially it is not worth it OP. You lose out on 3 years of $200k income so a total of $600k Gross then on top of the $450k that it costs with interest to attend GSO for 3 years so that is -$1million in the hole that you could have gained (gross before taxes so like ($600-700k after taxes). Just keep taking CE and build your Ortho skills - this would be the best thing financially. Put this money in Vanguard ETFs and your retirement is set and let the compounding interest unfold and take advantage of this down market where all stocks and funds are likely 30% off.....

Or do ortho because you love it but do not do it for the money because financially it should be unwise.

 

[charlestweed]

They last about 2 years and then they are gone. For a YOUNG new grad .... a Corp job is fine temporarily to gain experience and speed, but at the end of the day ..... it is a DEAD END job.

Corp is perfect for myself, but I am older. Part time essentially.

Like Charles mentioned. Coming in a busy, large Corp office and taking over from other orthodontists is ..... tough. I mean. Who (orthos) out there like to take on transfer cases. Most of us don't. For a young, new grad ..... most of his patients will essentially be transfer cases .... that he/she needs to complete ON TIME. This isn't residency where you can treat these patients forever. It's a recipe for failure.

I’ve worked for the corps since I graduated from ortho program in 2001. I don’t mind working like this for the rest of my life. There are not a lot of easy jobs out there that pay you $1500-2000 a day….and the assistants do most of the hard work for you.

I love working for the corp offices. The pay is much better than private offices. They have a lot more patients to keep me busy full time because they own multile offices. I don't mind taking over cases that were started by other orthodontists; I've leared a lot from taking over these cases. Busy schedule at the corp helps me work faster....I diagnose and tx plan faster....I bend wires faster....I become a better clinician. I also learn a lot from the assistants at the corp because share with me many of the clinical tricks that other orthodontists at the corp use.

 

[charlestweed]

False. Grossly under estimating costs of living and taxes. Assuming OP has no dependents or expenses.

Financially it is not worth it OP. You lose out on 3 years of $200k income so a total of $600k Gross then on top of the $450k that it costs with interest to attend GSO for 3 years so that is -$1million in the hole that you could have gained (gross before taxes so like ($600-700k after taxes). Just keep taking CE and build your Ortho skills - this would be the best thing financially. Put this money in Vanguard ETFs and your retirement is set and let the compounding interest unfold and take advantage of this down market where all stocks and funds are likely 30% off.....

Or do ortho because you love it but do not do it for the money because financially it should be unwise.

No matter how much you spend your time and money on CE classes, you still won’t be an orthodontist. You still can’t advertise your practice as an ortho practice and no GP would refer the patients to you. Corp offices won't hire you and pay you the "ortho" salary (easily 2x more than the associate GP's salary) unless you are a real orthodontist.

3 years of lost income is not that much. Think of this as taking a break from your job. If you are single and have no kids to support, this shouldn't be a problem. You can easily make up for this loss of income by working 1-2 years longer in the future. The job is so easy. That’s why many orthos can work until they are in their 70s. Many of these old orthos want to work because they enjoy their job and not because they need the money.

You make money many times faster from working as an ortho/dentist than from any form of investments out there. If it was so easy to grow my hard earned money from investments, I would not have to work the way I do right now.

 

[deleted1047421]

Most of the naysayers here are general dentists with minimal experience or even dental students.

I’m not discounting any opinions or comments.

But take some advice from actual specialists who’ve worked and have experience in ortho. Or even myself who knows practicing orthodontists.

You can make easily 500 k following graduation with minimal experience.

I personally do not think the ortho market is over saturated as a whole. Of course there will be competition in highly desirable areas to live. But the saying goes, there will always be room for providers who are good. These desirable areas also have a lot of patients who have the means to pay for treatment.

There is a huge population in the US. Can someone show me data that compares the population of the US as a whole with respect to matriculating ortho residents a year, with data from years back? I simply cannot believe that the profession is going downhill.
Tooth mover is a practicing ortho and he has posted that he makes more money with his ortho job now than when he owned a practice. And he’s working part time.

There are also ortho schools that actually pay the resident a stipend and don’t charge anything for tuition. The hospital that I did my omfs residency training at also had an ortho program. Those ortho residents were paid a stipend.
The schools that do charge 400 k, well, the positive thing is that it gave these residents a chance to get into ortho. They probably wouldn’t be an orthodontist if it weren’t for these schools.

 

[D1Bound]

Most of the naysayers here are general dentists with minimal experience or even dental students.

I’m not discounting any opinions or comments.

But take some advice from actual specialists who’ve worked and have experience in ortho. Or even myself who knows practicing orthodontists.

You can make easily 500 k following graduation with minimal experience.

I personally do not think the ortho market is over saturated as a whole. Of course there will be competition in highly desirable areas to live. But the saying goes, there will always be room for providers who are good. These desirable areas also have a lot of patients who have the means to pay for treatment.

There is a huge population in the US. Can someone show me data that compares the population of the US as a whole with respect to matriculating ortho residents a year, with data from years back? I simply cannot believe that the profession is going downhill.
Tooth mover is a practicing ortho and he has posted that he makes more money with his ortho job now than when he owned a practice. And he’s working part time.

There are also ortho schools that actually pay the resident a stipend and don’t charge anything for tuition. The omfs residency program that I went to also had an ortho program that was hospital based. Those ortho residents were paid a stipend.
The schools that do charge 400 k, well, the positive thing is that it gave these residents a chance to get into ortho. They probably wouldn’t be an orthodontist if it weren’t for these schools.

Your comment is explaining what we know: Orthodontics is great at this very moment. But what about in 10 years? Increasing class sizes and new residency programs opening up? This is what concerns me

 

[deleted1047421]

But what about in 10 years? Increasing class sizes and new residency programs opening up? This is what concerns me

As I’ve said someone needs to look up the amount of matriculating residents a year and compare that to the population as a whole.

There should be more programs and more graduating residents a year to keep up with the growing population.

 

[charlestweed]

The schools that do charge 400 k, well, the positive thing is that it gave these residents a chance to get into ortho. They probably wouldn’t be an orthodontist if it weren’t for these schools.

In the past, many orthodontists had to volunteer to teach or donated $$$ to the school with the hope that they could get their sons and daughters into an ortho program. Because of the opening of new programs like Georgia, I no longer have to do any of these if I want my kids to become orthodontists. It’s good for the practicing dentists who want to go back to school for ortho but don’t have good enough stats to get into the more famous and less expensive programs.

 

[charlestweed]

Your comment is explaining what we know: Orthodontics is great at this very moment. But what about in 10 years? Increasing class sizes and new residency programs opening up? This is what concerns me

In 10 years, ortho still won't be worse than what we’ve already seen here in CA….oversaturation, low treatment fees, expansion of corp offices, GPs doing invisalign tx, Smile Direct Club etc. And I am still doing fine here. If I can do it so can the future grads, who plan to practice outside of CA.

 

[deleted1047421]

In the past, many orthodontists had to volunteer to teach or donated $$$ to the school with the hope that they could get their sons and daughters into an ortho program. Because of the opening of new programs like Georgia, I no longer have to do any of these if I want my kids to become orthodontists. It’s good for the practicing dentists who want to go back to school for ortho but don’t have good enough stats to get into the more famous and less expensive programs.

If I’m not mistaken a number of years ago I heard of an applicants family donating close to a million dollars to a program in California when the applicant was applying to such program.

Look 400 k really isn’t that much.

I understand the story of Mike Meru but I don’t think he was trying that hard.

 

[LFA20]

This is a big sacrifice. I wouldn't do it if I were you...

 

[charlestweed]

If I’m not mistaken a number of years ago I heard of an applicants family donating close to a million dollars to a program in California when the applicant was applying to such program.

Look 400 k really isn’t that much.

I understand the story of Mike Meru but I don’t think he was trying that hard.

It’s not much, if you make $4-500k/year. With such income, you can afford to buy a house that costs 3-4 times more than this $400k debt amount…..and should be able to pay off the home loan well before the 30-year loan term. This would be a lot of debt for someone whose income is in the low $100k….and stays at this level for the rest of his practicing career.

Nothing in life is easy. Earning an ortho certificate doesn’t guarantee a person a $500k income. It depends on each individual’s effort. The new grads have to understand that in order to become a good clinician (and earn a good income), they have be willing to take some risks….and working for a busy corp office is one of those risks. If you are afraid to take any risk and avoid treating difficult cases…avoid taking over someone else’s cases, you will never learn. If you are spoiled with working at a slow office with low patient volume, you will remain a slow/unproductive orthodontist for the rest of your practicing career. The same applies to general dentistry (and other fields such as endo, omfs, pedo, perio) as well. The dentists who do well are the ones with above average clinical skills….they take CE classes, they want to challenge themselves by accepting difficult cases (and face the risks of getting sued). These dentists shouldn’t have any problem finding good paying jobs because many employers desperately need good dentists like them. When they open up their own clinics, they will also do well. That’s why the range of income among dentists is quite large. There are dentists who make below $120k/year and there are dentists who earn 7-figure incomes.

 

[deleted1047421]

order to become a good clinician (and earn a good income), they have be willing to take some risks…

Excellent post Charles.

Lol I just can’t help myself. Hahaha.
What you guys think is risky - taking over some ortho cases. It’s so different than the risk us oral surgeons take on a daily basis. Hahaha this comment just made my day

 

[gryffindor]

They last about 2 years and then they are gone. For a YOUNG new grad .... a Corp job is fine temporarily to gain experience and speed, but at the end of the day ..... it is a DEAD END job.

Corp is perfect for myself, but I am older. Part time essentially.

Like Charles mentioned. Coming in a busy, large Corp office and taking over from other orthodontists is ..... tough. I mean. Who (orthos) out there like to take on transfer cases. Most of us don't. For a young, new grad ..... most of his patients will essentially be transfer cases .... that he/she needs to complete ON TIME. This isn't residency where you can treat these patients forever. It's a recipe for failure.

Two years is generous. I understood from charlestweed's post that these new grads were lasting much less than 2 years. Like maybe a few months and they either quit or the corp fires them because they know they can call charlestweed to cover for a while. He shows up, tunes out all the angry parents and patients, gets some real orthodontics done, and then goes home and pays some bills.

 

[gryffindor]

As I’ve said someone needs to look up the amount of matriculating residents a year and compare that to the population as a whole.

There should be more programs and more graduating residents a year to keep up with the growing population.

In 2003 when I was acutely aware of these kinds of stats, there were just around 250 ortho residents starting each year. The largest residency at that time was St. Louis University with something like 12 residents per class. Google says the US population was 290.1 million in 2003. That number of starting residents went up very fast in 2004/2005 as the three OEC programs started around then with 16 residents per class. So by 2006, there were around 300 residents starting each year and the population in 2006 was 298.4 million.

Now in 2022, Google says the US population is 332.4 million. Several more programs have opened since 2006. Someone applying now should be able to tell us how many residency spots there are that will start next year.

 

[011110]

Well in 2015 there were 370 graduating residents per year. Add in 6 from CTOR and 45 (wtf?) from GSO and there are probably are 421. Thats an increase of 121 since 2006 so definitely rocky numbers.

 

[011110]

TBH from a strictly numbers standup the numbers just aren’t there. The US fertility rate also dropped from 2.05 in 2003 to 1.64 in 2020 according the google. Less people having kids = less kids to slap braces on.

GSO alone is really like 11 small programs opening all in 1 shot.

 

[deleted1047421]

In 2003 when I was acutely aware of these kinds of stats, there were just around 250 ortho residents starting each year. The largest residency at that time was St. Louis University with something like 12 residents per class. Google says the US population was 290.1 million in 2003. That number of starting residents went up very fast in 2004/2005 as the three OEC programs started around then with 16 residents per class. So by 2006, there were around 300 residents starting each year and the population in 2006 was 298.4 million.

Now in 2022, Google says the US population is 332.4 million. Several more programs have opened since 2006. Someone applying now should be able to tell us how many residency spots there are that will start next year.

Well in 2015 there were 370 graduating residents per year. Add in 6 from CTOR and 45 (wtf?) from GSO and there are probably are 421. Thats an increase of 121 since 2006 so definitely rocky numbers.

One more thing we should also compare :
The amount of orthodontists retiring now vs previous decades.

 

[charlestweed]

The increase in number of ortho residents who graduate each year doesn't matter. The financial success depends on each individual’s efforts. The ones who are not picky and work harder will have more patients to treat than the ones who are picky and slow. More patients = more $$$....it’s a simple math. There are ortho jobs that no one wants to take; this means that a lot of the orthos are still very picky. A lot of young orthos do a demographic research to make sure that the area where they plan to set up their practice has enough “rich” people living there. If you only target the top 20% income earners, then don’t complain why the field is oversaturated.

Based on the Georgia’s website, about 1/3 of the residents there are foreign trained dentists (FTD’s). There were very few FTD’s in the earlier year classes. But in the first year class, about 50% of them are FTD’s. I am not sure if these FTD’s will be allowed to practice in the US after graduation. It looks like as years go by, more and more dentists from other countries know about the Georgia program and want to apply there. That’s probably the reason why the program increases its class size to 45 for this incoming class. It’s the law of supply and demand.

 

[011110]

The increase in number of ortho residents who graduate each year doesn't matter. The financial success depends on each individual’s efforts. The ones who are not picky and work harder will have more patients to treat than the ones who are picky and slow. More patients = more $$$....it’s a simple math. There are ortho jobs that no one wants to take; this means that a lot of the orthos are still very picky. A lot of young orthos do a demographic research to make sure that the area where they plan to set up their practice has enough “rich” people living there. If you only target the top 20% income earners, then don’t complain why the field is oversaturated.

Based on the Georgia’s website, about 1/3 of the residents there are foreign trained dentists (FTD’s). There were very few FTD’s in the earlier year classes. But in the first year class, about 50% of them are FTD’s. I am not sure if these FTD’s will be allowed to practice in the US after graduation. It looks like as years go by, more and more dentists from other countries know about the Georgia program and want to apply there. That’s probably the reason why the program increases its class size to 45 for this incoming class. It’s the law of supply and demand.

What’s the point of a FTD going to Georgia if they can’t practice in the US afterward?

 

[deleted1047421]

What’s the point of a FTD going to Georgia if they can’t practice in the US afterward?

Some states do allow you to practice as a specialist in that state if you do a us based residency, and have a foreign dental degree.

For these individuals, it’s worth it because it’s their ticket to practice in the US without doing dental school in the US.
Also they probably don’t have the burden of high dental school debt.

 

[charlestweed]

Some states do allow you to practice as a specialist in that state if you do a us based residency, and have a foreign dental degree.

For these individuals, it’s worth it because it’s their ticket to practice in the US without doing dental school in the US.
Also they probably don’t have the burden of high dental school debt.

Not only these FTD’s don’t have any financial burden of dental school debt, I think most of them are very wealthy. That’s why they can afford to pay (in cash) for their education at the Georgia ortho program. The poor ones usually have to work as assistants (or have other low paying jobs) when they come here. One of my ortho assistants was an orthodontist in her birth country.

People from all over the world want to come to this great county at any cost. Being outsiders, it’s easier for them to recognize many great opportunities that this country offers. They could have stayed in their birth countries and enjoyed their lavish lifestyle. They come here because there are a lot of things that money can’t buy….freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom to worship their God, free market capitalism, great (non-socialized) healthcare system etc. They want to live in a country where the women are not treated as second class citizens. A lot of the millionaires in my birth country have spent lots of money to try come to America….and if they can’t, they at least try to get their kids to America.

 

[deleted1047421]

What’s the point of a FTD going to Georgia if they can’t practice in the US afterward?

One thing comes to mind:
Someone should compile a list to see which states allow licensure of foreign trained dentists (who are specialists) without a us based dental degree.

This will give an idea of which states will have a high influx of orthodontists from such programs.
At least initially. Many states allow reciprocity meaning that after having a dental license in another state for 5 years they can be granted licensure in another state.