Is Georgia School of Orthodontics worth it for all my savings?

[gryffindor]

One thing comes to mind:
Someone should compile a list to see which states allow licensure of foreign trained dentists (who are specialists) without a us based dental degree.

I’m sure someone on the international board has the answer to this memorized.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

One thing comes to mind:
Someone should compile a list to see which states allow licensure of foreign trained dentists (who are specialists) without a us based dental degree.

This will give an idea of which states will have a high influx of orthodontists from such programs.
At least initially. Many states allow reciprocity meaning that after having a dental license in another state for 5 years they can be granted licensure in another state.

I can tell you off the top of my head that at least 11 states offer licensure to internationals after a minimum of a 2 year CODA approved residency.
Virginia allows licensure after 1 year.
CA offers reciprocity after 3 years of practice in another State.
Source : Am international. Also the likely target of schools like GSO.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

I’m sure someone on the international board has the answer to this memorized.

You called? 😅

 

[juniordentist]

Yes but getting a dental licence is only half the battle to work in the US. You still need to be able to get a work visa. Not that easy for many countries

 

[CaliDDS1986]

How much do international dentists expect to make by completing an orthodontic residency at GSO? They must assume the ROI is there to work in the US if they are to pay over 600k for the orthodontics degree.

 

[gryffindor]

How much do international dentists expect to make by completing an orthodontic residency at GSO? They must assume the ROI is there to work in the US if they are to pay over 600k for the orthodontics degree.

Enough so they can stay in the USA.

 

[deleted1047421]

How much do international dentists expect to make by completing an orthodontic residency at GSO? They must assume the ROI is there to work in the US if they are to pay over 600k for the orthodontics degree.

I must admit when I first heard of GSO (which was a few days ago) I didn’t know that a large percentage of the students are foreign trained dentists. Now that I have a better understanding, I can begin to understand why so many foreign graduates would sign up.
The answer is simple. They want to live and practice in the US. This is a fast track. Personally I would pay 600k to get the hell out of country xyz to come to the US. There is a price for freedom and the American dream. Freedom isn’t free. I feel bad for these guys (a little) because the cost is incredibly high.

In terms of getting a work visa, once they get here all they have to do is find a job that would sponsor them for a work visa/green card. I honestly don’t know how difficult that is. Or, there is the more traditional way - just get married to a us citizen.

 

[011110]

To the OP: I think it comes down to can you see yourself doing GP another 30 years. If you figure you are going to retire at 65, you probably need to work another 30 years. Lets say you don’t do the residency, but get burnt out of GP in 5 years. Now it’s a loss and you would have been better doing ortho. Yes you are paying essentially a 1 year ortho salary to do GSO, but if it lengthens your career it won’t matter. If you drop out of GP and end up making 80-100k doing something else, it really is a loss staying a GP. Point is depending on your burn out level, if ortho extends your career it’s the clear winner.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

How much do international dentists expect to make by completing an orthodontic residency at GSO? They must assume the ROI is there to work in the US if they are to pay over 600k for the orthodontics degree.

Given than my dental school costs (straight out of HS, no other undergrad debt), was about 50k, that family paid for, 650 suddenly doesn't sound like a whole lot. If Corp pays 350+ a year then that's essentially 3-5 years of work to pay it off.
And as long as I'm licensed to practice, I'm wide open to working weekends doing implants and sedation to boost those numbers, if I don't declare a limitation of specialty. ( For comparison, I knock out a full arch in a couple of hours currently. Going rate for that is right about 2.5-3 grand where I'm from, using pricey straumann implants, rocky mountain grafts and cerec prosthesis. Going rate for that out here is at least 10x more in my experience). All in it's a fair deal in that respect.

 

[PerioDont]

Given than my dental school costs (straight out of HS, no other undergrad debt), was about 50k, that family paid for, 650 suddenly doesn't sound like a whole lot. If Corp pays 350+ a year then that's essentially 3-5 years of work to pay it off.
And as long as I'm licensed to practice, I'm wide open to working weekends doing implants and sedation to boost those numbers, if I don't declare a limitation of specialty. ( For comparison, I knock out a full arch in a couple of hours currently. Going rate for that is right about 2.5-3 grand where I'm from, using pricey straumann implants, rocky mountain grafts and cerec prosthesis. Going rate for that out here is at least 10x more in my experience). All in it's a fair deal in that respect.

Why would an orthodontist do implants and sedation?

2.5-3 grand for a full arch case is insane. We charge ~2k for a single implant at residency prices.

Maybe in your specific scenario it might be worth it.

I personally couldn't recommend the average dentist to apply to such a program.

 

[deleted1047421]

Why would an orthodontist do implants and sedation?

2.5-3 grand for a full arch case is insane. We charge ~2k for a single implant at residency prices.

Maybe in your specific scenario it might be worth it.

I personally couldn't recommend the average dentist to apply to such a program.

Lol take it easy.

As previously mentioned most of the FTDs will not even have a license to practice until they finish their residency. Their foreign degrees won’t grant them a license to practice on their own. On top of that they need work visas and green cards etc.

It’s fantasy talk that FTD will come over to GSO Monday to Friday, get fantasy referrals and slam in all on fours with their fantasy ga permits on the weekends.

 

[blablabla1]

As I’ve said someone needs to look up the amount of matriculating residents a year and compare that to the population as a whole.

There should be more programs and more graduating residents a year to keep up with the growing population.

The birth rate is going down, in fact it’s almost the same as the death rate now which has not happened in a very very long time. In some states last year, the death rate actually exceeded the birth rate. The number of kids being born is becoming lower and lower and it’s very much a cultural thing as well as socioeconomic.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

Why would an orthodontist do implants and sedation?

2.5-3 grand for a full arch case is insane. We charge ~2k for a single implant at residency prices.

Maybe in your specific scenario it might be worth it.

I personally couldn't recommend the average dentist to apply to such a program.

Well typically they wouldn't. Like you said, in my specific scenario, I probably could do weekdays at Corp and weekends travel to pick up Implant work.
Also, terrible prices indeed 🥹

 

[EVILDENTIST]

Lol take it easy.

As previously mentioned most of the FTDs will not even have a license to practice until they finish their residency. Their foreign degrees won’t grant them a license to practice on their own. On top of that they need work visas and green cards etc.

It’s fantasy talk that FTD will come over to GSO Monday to Friday, get fantasy referrals and slam in all on fours with their fantasy ga permits on the weekends.

Lol take it easy.

As previously mentioned most of the FTDs will not even have a license to practice until they finish their residency. Their foreign degrees won’t grant them a license to practice on their own. On top of that they need work visas and green cards etc.

It’s fantasy talk that FTD will come over to GSO Monday to Friday, get fantasy referrals and slam in all on fours with their fantasy ga permits on the weekends.

Yeah my answer was more of a if I as a FTD had to do GSO and wanted to pay it off faster once done, not a do Ortho residency weekdays and do implants on the weekend. Even with that, it's not a good deal.

 

[jobayanks29]

The birth rate is going down, in fact it’s almost the same as the death rate now which has not happened in a very very long time. In some states last year, the death rate actually exceeded the birth rate. The number of kids being born is becoming lower and lower and it’s very much a cultural thing as well as socioeconomic.

Do you, or does anyone, think this will be a problem in ortho? Does anyone think this and all of the other issues facing orthodontics will hurt potential income long term? Any residents or orthodontists have opinions on this?

 

[juniordentist]

I graduated ortho school 2 years ago. I don't have a good enough "birds eye view" of the profession from my perspective to see the change first hand, but there is absolutely no way incomes could go up. It is supply and demand, everything in dentistry is affected by supply and demand, incomes are only going to go down. As to how much? Anyone's guess. Ortho salaries won't go lower than general dentist salaries, if that happens ortho will just work at general offices and be a general dentist with an emphasis on ortho. But if you go to a crazy expensive school and have 3 years of lost income, even if you earn more than a general dentist it may not be financially worth it.

 

[011110]

I graduated ortho school 2 years ago. I don't have a good enough "birds eye view" of the profession from my perspective to see the change first hand, but there is absolutely no way incomes could go up. It is supply and demand, everything in dentistry is affected by supply and demand, incomes are only going to go down. As to how much? Anyone's guess. Ortho salaries won't go lower than general dentist salaries, if that happens ortho will just work at general offices and be a general dentist with an emphasis on ortho. But if you go to a crazy expensive school and have 3 years of lost income, even if you earn more than a general dentist it may not be financially worth it.

Just to play devils advocate here, but 20 years ago when OEC was formed people were saying the same thing. @charlestweed said how he was paid like $800 a day and now it’s double. So I guess it is possible 20 years from now it could be $3000 per day for an orthodontist rather than $1500.

 

[charlestweed]

Do you, or does anyone, think this will be a problem in ortho? Does anyone think this and all of the other issues facing orthodontics will hurt potential income long term? Any residents or orthodontists have opinions on this?

According to this (US population by year, race, age, ethnicity, & more), the US population has increased by 7.3% from 309 in million 2010 to 332 million in 2021. Hispanic population had the highest growth….from 50.7 million in 2010 to 62.6 million in 2021. At my ortho practices, more than 50% of my patients are Hispanics and 30% are Asians. And many of them (young kids) have only been in this country for a few years. These immigrant parents are poor but they still want to in invest for their kids' future.....and to them, having straight teeth/beautiful smile is one of the important things that is worth investing for their kids.

I keep hearing that a lot of people have left CA but I just don’t see that. The traffic is still very bad here. Home sales have slowed down but the home prices haven’t dropped much. And home/apartment rent rates have increased significantly. Many renters have difficult time finding homes/appts to rent. I pick up (or come to visit) my son at UCLA very regularly. The LA traffic is much worse now than when I attended UCLA 20 years ago. Before, it only took me 45-50 minutes...and now, it takes me twice as long to get there. There have been a lot of freeway widening projects to alleviate the traffic congestions but they don't seem to help much.

 

[PerioDont]

Just to play devils advocate here, but 20 years ago when OEC was formed people were saying the same thing. @charlestweed said how he was paid like $800 a day and now it’s double. So I guess it is possible 20 years from now it could be $3000 per day for an orthodontist rather than $1500.

you have to keep inflation in mind though. 3000$ twenty years from now is not going to be worth the same buying power as it is today.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I keep hearing that a lot of people have left CA but I just don’t see that.

That's because people who can't wait to hate on CA on any chance they get misrepresent a statistic. There are people leaving CA. There always has been. Now, though, there are more people leaving CA than who are coming in. So therefore, people just assume CA is losing droves of people. It's a "failed state". Groan. If that were the case, as I'm sure you would have noticed, the housing/rental markets would have cooled down noticeably in the state.

A lot of people who are moving are just moving elsewhere (like from LA to Riverside County, for example, or from the Bay Area to Sacramento), and not even leaving the state.

There have been a lot of freeway widening projects to alleviate the traffic congestions but they don't seem to help much.

That's because widening doesn't help with traffic. See the Katy freeway in Houston as an example. Traffic got worse AFTER they widened it and finished construction. The current prevailing theory is that the more lanes you add, the more people are going to use said roads/highways, so traffic doesn't get better. In fact, it probably gets worse.

 

[Heartbreak]

Hi, I have questions.

1. Is there any other place like GSO?

2. As long as you can show the proof that you can pay for the tuition, are you almost guaranteed to get the acceptance from GSO regardless of your GPA, GRE ADAT score, and extracurricular activities?

 

[nonociceptors]

Hi, I have questions.

1. Is there any other place like GSO?

2. As long as you can show the proof that you can pay for the tuition, are you almost guaranteed to get the acceptance from GSO regardless of your GPA, GRE ADAT score, and extracurricular activities?

You’re everything wrong with dentistry

 

[cn5neuralgia]

Hi, I have questions.

1. Is there any other place like GSO?

2. As long as you can show the proof that you can pay for the tuition, are you almost guaranteed to get the acceptance from GSO regardless of your GPA, GRE ADAT score, and extracurricular activities?

#1 Your argument is flawed for thinking GPA/GRE/ADAT matter. GPA is highly dependent upon the quality of your dental school competition. GRE/ADAT are easy if you prep correctly.

#2 Considering the quality of new grads nowadays, dental school shouldn't need any minimal requirements. Dentists at the top of the class from the top schools are great, but the rest haven't really killed anyone (knock on wood). I'm sure we can attest to the fact that some of our former classmates aren't the brightest. Instead of complaining about GSO, I would focus on why so many low quality dental schools have opened and why they accept such low quality applicants. Also why are some new grads nowadays graduating with just one root canal under their belt? If dental schools were as picky as top MD schools, I'm sure there would be nothing to complain about.

 

[charlestweed]

#1 Your argument is flawed for thinking GPA/GRE/ADAT matter. GPA is highly dependent upon the quality of your dental school competition. GRE/ADAT are easy if you prep correctly.

#2 Considering the quality of new grads nowadays, dental school shouldn't need any minimal requirements. Dentists at the top of the class from the top schools are great, but the rest haven't really killed anyone (knock on wood). I'm sure we can attest to the fact that some of our former classmates aren't the brightest. Instead of complaining about GSO, I would focus on why so many low quality dental schools have opened and why they accept such low quality applicants. Also why are some new grads nowadays graduating with just one root canal under their belt? If dental schools were as picky as top MD schools, I'm sure there would be nothing to complain about.

It’s actually much harder to get into dental schools now in comparison to the time when I applied (20+ years ago). I know plenty of kids who have better undergrad GPAs than than mine and couldn’t get accepted to any dental school or got accepted to the less desirable dental schools (expensive private schools in expensivce cities like LA, NYC, Boston etc). My undergrad GPA wasn’t very high and I got into a cheap state school without any problem. NYU accepted me without even looking at my DAT score. I took the DAT very late and it took a while for the test center to send my DAT score to all the schools (there was no internet during my time…..everything was sent by snail mails).

I actually got flamed a few times on this forum for saying that getting into medical schools is much harder than getting into dental schools. I still hold this belief. According to many dental students here, the average undergrad GPAs of dental students are almost the same as (or just slightly lower than) those of the medical students.

According this site,USC Dental School Tuition | Acceptance Rate | Requirements, the average undergrad GPA of the students who attend USC dental school, a very expensive private dental school, is 3.73. And the average DAT score is 20.5.

 

[DustFreeEraser]

.

You're at the dental forum, not surprised you got flamed for saying medical school was harder to get into when it's true. Being a physician was and is still the gold standard of healthcare jobs assuming you prefer to be a clinician. Once you start bringing the topic of being a clinic owner, you are no longer comparing clinician vs clinician, you'd have to compare business owner vs business owner.

And going back to the OP's question and the discussions had here, it's only a matter of time before more schools like this pop up as capitalism will always prevail. Might as well join them if you can't beat them.