interventional GI endoscopists

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june015b

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I found that the interventional GI endoscopists are becoming more invasive with their new extraluminal/endoluminal endoscopic surgeries (for example, endoscopic bariatric surgery, endoscopic fundoplication, partial esophagectomy, extraluminal lymph node biopsy, pancreatic pseudocyst drainage, biliary ca/hepatoma seeding, intrapancreastic cancer radiation seeding, extra-GI luminal mass or LN biopsy (abd/pelv), biliary drainage, etc).

These are in addition to other GI stuffs (i.e. ERCP with stent/Bx, EUS, capsule endoscope, chromoscope, EGD, colonoscopy, PEG, PEGE, transplantation(liver/pancreas/small bowel), etc.) It looks like GI & hepatology is expanding further...Is this similar to what is going on in the interventional cardiology? What do you think of this new trend?

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If what you're saying is true, then GI is really going to be an exciting field to enter in the future, but it also means that it'll be more and more competitive. A fellow at UCSD said over 500 apps were submitted for 3-4 GI fellowship spots this year!!! Crazy huh, i wonder if there are any fast track programs available other than UCLA
 
dirtybob said:
If what you're saying is true, then GI is really going to be an exciting field to enter in the future, but it also means that it'll be more and more competitive. A fellow at UCSD said over 500 apps were submitted for 3-4 GI fellowship spots this year!!! Crazy huh, i wonder if there are any fast track programs available other than UCLA


I think U of Pittsburgh has a fast track GI. The program is one of the top ten rated prog. Its transplant (liver, pancrea, small bowel) service is the number one in the country.
 
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Fast track GI at UCLA is usually reserved for STAR applicants who usually do at least 5-6 years of training anyways to earn a masters/PhD along with subspecialty training. I think there is one guy there who was taken out after his 2nd year of IM residency at UCLA to start the STAR program.

As for interventional GI - there are new procedures being developed all the time. Radical Endoscopy is the term for endoscopic procedures that involve surgical techniques. For example there are procedures proposed to do intestinal bypasses (gastric, or small bowel) to allieve obstructions, or for therapeutics for obesity. Most of these procedures are still early in their creation/implementation.

Endoscopic fundoplication in the treatment of GERD has been touted over the last year, and several companies have developed special endoscopes for the procedure. Being that it is so new, there is little long term efficacy data.

What I love about GI is that the technology allows the field to innovate and evolve. If you want a good summary of what is new in GI, there is a new article in UpToDate written by Peter Bonis. Just search for "What's new in Gastroenterology"
 
How do you pursue the career in the GI endoscopic surgery?
 
One route is to do a 3 year Gastroenterology/Hepatology Fellowship, then followed by a 1 year advanced endoscopy fellowship. The availability of these advanced fellowships is very very limited. There are usually 1-2 positions per facililty each year. Some places that have them are MGH/BWH, Mayo, UCSD, etc.. These advanced fellowships are a recent thing. They were created because people started to realize that 3 years of GI training was not enough to teach both diagnostic endoscopy and advanced therapeautic techniques. The problem is, having an advanced fellow in the system will then take away the advanced procedure cases away from the junior fellows' training experience.

The other route is to do 5-6 years of surgical residency and then apply for an endoscopic/laproscopic surgical fellowship. But since this is an internal medicine board, i think most people would rather do the former.
 
june015b said:
I found that the interventional GI endoscopists are becoming more invasive with their new extraluminal/endoluminal endoscopic surgeries (for example, endoscopic bariatric surgery, endoscopic fundoplication, partial esophagectomy, extraluminal lymph node biopsy, pancreatic pseudocyst drainage, biliary ca/hepatoma seeding, intrapancreastic cancer radiation seeding, extra-GI luminal mass or LN biopsy (abd/pelv), biliary drainage, etc).

These are in addition to other GI stuffs (i.e. ERCP with stent/Bx, EUS, capsule endoscope, chromoscope, EGD, colonoscopy, PEG, PEGE, transplantation(liver/pancreas/small bowel), etc.) It looks like GI & hepatology is expanding further...Is this similar to what is going on in the interventional cardiology? What do you think of this new trend?

Are you sure that the GI guys are doing all that surgery? Here at Mayo at least, that type of surgery (endoscopic bariatric) is done by the GI surgeons (a totally different breed than the Gastroenterologists). The GI guys here stick to ERCP, TIPs etc.
 
trouta said:
Are you sure that the GI guys are doing all that surgery? Here at Mayo at least, that type of surgery (endoscopic bariatric) is done by the GI surgeons (a totally different breed than the Gastroenterologists). The GI guys here stick to ERCP, TIPs etc.


Yes. These were presented and shown at this year's ASGE (American Soc of Gastro endoscopy) and DDW (digestive Diseases Week) meetings in New Orleans.
 
I'll admit that a lot of this extraluminal stuff is relatively new to me as well as far as who, what, when, and where. At the Mayo in Rochester, there is a GI staff by the name of Christopher Gostout who is evidently at the forefront of developing these new "Radical Endoscopy" or extraluminal techniques. Evidently, the Mayo GI folks have a place where they house pigs which they use to develop these techniques.

There is also an article from a May issue of Internal Medicine News talking about how GI surgeons have been losing turf to Gastroenterologists as the development of new flexible endoscopic techniques takes away more bread and butter from them The article focuses on comments by Jeff Ponsky, a GI surgeon at the Cleveland Clinic (and interestingly, one of the developers of the PEG as we know it today) at a recent SAGES (Society of American Gastrointestinal Endoscopic Surgeons ) saying that surgical residencies need to retool and refocus to train their residents in endoscopy/endoscopic techniques or they will be left behind.

May 15 2004 ? Volume 37 ? Number 10, eInternal Medicine News

http://www2.einternalmedicinenews.c...rchDBfor=art&artType=fullfree&id=aqm040371001

As someone starting my GI training in two weeks, I'm more excited than ever. Also, I'm not at all worried about surgeons encroaching on "our" turf to any significant degree because:

1. We do more (the most) flexible endoscopy and will continue to leverage this procedural skill advantage into developing more flexible endoscopic procedures that we continue to teach primarily to GI trainees -- self fulfilling prophecy and sustaining ourselves, so to speak

2. Surgeons still want to cut, and will still do so to make a living as much as they can. Either you stay proficient and spend time operating, or you become rusty in those skills if you do exclusively endoscopy. It's not possible for one person to be good at all these different types of procedures. Nor can you be in the OR or scoping at the same time. One or the other. Only 24 hours in a day. That kind of thing. Case in point, there are many GIs who don't do any advanced endoscopy and have a very satisfying practice with EGDs, Colons, PEGs, maybe some ERCP (but diagnostic only). They either don't want or don't have enough time in their day to devote to doing specialized advanced procedures, and they make a great living anyway.

3. Surgeons can't bite the hand that feeds them -- if they try to do more endoscopy, they lose referrals from GI docs as punishment.

4. Remember, not every GI doc in practice will be trained or will even want to do these "radical" or interventional procedures. The point is, I suspect these techniques will remain pretty exclusive or in the domain of a relatively few "super-trained" GI endoscopists. There will also be some surgeons who learn such procedures, but that dissemination will be limited by 1-3 above.

I suspect that as these procedures begin to enter into clinical practice, they will do so at primarily academic medical centers where they are first developed, then disseminate slowly into the private world as private GIs who are so inclined learn the procedures and incorporate them into practice. Not to mention, they'd better pay well to do -- presume that many of these novel procedures are very time and skill intensive, so one could do 4-5 colonoscopies in the time it could take to do one of these advanced cases, but does the advanced procedure pay better than 5 colons? This factor may limit how readily private GI docs adopt such procedures, in that if it doesn't pay to do them, forget it.

Just some food for thought.

At any rate, to agree with the above posts, GI is becoming more exciting all the time.
 
Thanks for your insightful post. I have no idea if you have discussed this before, but I was wondering what you're opinion on virtual colonoscopy was and whether or not you are frightened of it


Thanks
 
I wouldn't be afraid of virtual colonoscopy. As resident at an intitution that has the attending who published the NEJM article that proves its efficacy, I can tell you that it is not a threat to GI. First, it is only for screening. Any findings of VC must be taken out by colonoscopy. Second, at this point it is still an uncomfortable procedure, although they are working on ways of making this more comfortable (I'm not sure of the methods, but we do a lot of research on the subject). Insurance companies, by the way, are already paying for VC. All of the insurance companies in our part of the state now include VC in their list of covered procedures.

So basically, VC will be an alternative for screening colonoscopy of average risk individuals. There is a huge backlog for traditional screening colonoscopy, and this will ease that burden, without taking away any of the more lucrative and more interesting colonoscopies to investigate findings. In fact, if more people get screening procedures due to this alternative, this kind of procedure will increase.

The attending in charge of VC at our institution has the goal of increasing the proportion of people undergoing screening, not "stealing" a procedure. As a prelim medicine intern, I can say that I saw way too many people with advanced colon cancer that could easily have been avoided had they agreed to screening, but too many patients are reluctant. If they have one more alternative, that, when done correctly is very accurate, the odds of more people getting screened is increased.
 
Just want to agree w/ whisker barrel. My mentor, GI doc here at UC, says basically the exact same thing.
1. it is only for screening
2. it is also fairly uncomfortable
3. if they find even one polyp, they have to be scoped
4. there is a huge backlog
5. will most likely increase screening, which may lead to more investigative colonoscopies in order to biopsy.
 
nymed32 said:
Thanks for your insightful post. I have no idea if you have discussed this before, but I was wondering what you're opinion on virtual colonoscopy was and whether or not you are frightened of it


Thanks

VC still needs a bowel prep and air-insufflation of bowel.
Since the VC (cirtual colonosocpy) article on NEJM 12/03, there have been more papers contradicting the NEJM data. The bottom line is that the Navy data is not reporducible at other centers so far. When you look at all the papers published, there are more papers showing the negative data on VC. VC stills has a long way to go..

My second point is that VC is not good at detecting small or flat adenoma. As most experts say, you don't know if the small one is dysplastic or malignant until you biopsy it out. This will increase the overall cost and possibly cause a lawsuit.

My third point is cost-effectiveness, radiation effect, and incidental extra-colonic findings are NOT studied well yet in VC.
 
june015b said:
VC still needs a bowel prep and air-insufflation of bowel.
Since the VC (cirtual colonosocpy) article on NEJM 12/03, there have been more papers contradicting the NEJM data. The bottom line is that the Navy data is not reporducible at other centers so far. When you look at all the papers published, there are more papers showing the negative data on VC. VC stills has a long way to go..

My second point is that VC is not good at detecting small or flat adenoma. As most experts say, you don't know if the small one is dysplastic or malignant until you biopsy it out.

My third point is cost-effectiveness, radiation effect, and incidental extra-colonic findings are proven or studied yet.


Good points, all of which are being worked on. Just wanted to talk about the first point. There haven't been any articles that show that it is not reproducible using the methods in the NEJM article. The main article that came out was, I think, in JAMA and published by a group headed by GI docs. It had data that was 4-5 years old and performed on old generation CT scanners with terrible technique. The only reason these GI docs brought out a very flawed and old set of data was to try to discredit VC. Pretty low blow in my opinion, and unfounded.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
Good points, all of which are being worked on. Just wanted to talk about the first point. There haven't been any articles that show that it is not reproducible using the methods in the NEJM article. The main article that came out was, I think, in JAMA and published by a group headed by GI docs. It had data that was 4-5 years old and performed on old generation CT scanners with terrible technique. The only reason these GI docs brought out a very flawed and old set of data was to try to discredit VC. Pretty low blow in my opinion, and unfounded.

Absolutely. The JAMA article was a joke. Not only was their data old, but the technique they used for doing VC constituted what "not to do" as far as VC is concerned! :D I don't know how it got through the JAMA editorial process. :confused:
 
Docxter said:
Absolutely. The JAMA article was a joke. Not only was their data old, but the technique they used for doing VC constituted what "not to do" as far as VC is concerned! :D I don't know how it got through the JAMA editorial process. :confused:

I think they used the justification that this was the level of VC that would be provided by the average radiologist in practice. Most radiology practices update their equipment relatively frequently. Plus, no radiologist would have used this method in private practice anyway. Its just inviting a lawsuit.
 
All the studies out there on VC (virtual colonoscopy) show that VC is very POOR detecting small to medium sized adenoma and flat polyps (even NEJM 12/03). The chromo-endoscopy studies and others show that many small adenoma and flat adenoma can be dysplastic and even malignant. You don't really know whether it's bad or benign until you take it out by endoscopy. Also, with the current VC, an optimal screening interveal and a size cut for referral are not known. You can not generalize and apply that NEJM study to the general communitiy because there are many flaws and biases in that study (highly compliant, healthier, younger, military population, nonconventional double bowel preps, only blinded to GI but not to rad, question in rad training, high resol CT for all which increase costs and rad, etc..).

It's very worrisome that some of community radiologists are using this poorly optomized virtual colonoscopy in the community. The genenral public and primary care physician should be informed well about this "false security."
The use of VC by average radiologists in private/community will eventually invite LAWSUITS from patients who develop cancers from these not large or flat adenomas. Also, the effects of large amount of radiation (cancerogenic) and incidental extracolonic findings (extra costs) need clarification.
 
How many people are applying from your program this year? We have only 5 (out of 50) people this year.
 
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