I'm getting sick of the smack!

[idoc]

For all the long time readers, I haven't posted in awhile, but I have tried to follow the threads. I am going to give a little unsolicited commentary on the whole O.D. controversy.
First of all, I resent the attitude of the optometrists who have posted on this board. You have no business operating or considering it. And if you cannot understand why ophthalmologist and ophthalmology residents resent your posts and attitudes, then try this...

1. Go back to community college and pass Organic chemistry this time.
2. Take MCAT
3. Interview at Medical School
4. Rack up $130,000 in debt and spend your 20's in academic hell
5. Rise to the top of your medical school class and beat 90% of the nation on your USMLE I & II.
6. Match in Ophthalmology.
7. Spend a year of torture in Internship working 80 (haha) hours a week running codes, cross covering 50-100patients per night and getting paid ~ $6/hr, while continuing to neglect your wife and kids.
8. Then complete an ophthalmology residency with the prospect that some schmuck who couldn't/didn't go to medical school can do everything you can do.

If you can't understand why we would be upset, frustrated and angry, then please refrain from posting on this board and take your "We're as good as you" attitude to the Optom board.

Oh ya, happy friggin thanksgiving.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[limbus]

Sweet. My thoughts exactly.
You could add #9: Spend your career being referred to by the clueless general public (many of which our patients) as either a "optician" or "optometrist" or "optamologist", despite #'s 1-8. The only thing we have left is to call ourselves eye surgeons, although those lines are unfortunately beginning to blur....

Happy Friggin' Thanksgiving Everybody!

For all the long time readers, I haven't posted in awhile, but I have tried to follow the threads. I am going to give a little unsolicited commentary on the whole O.D. controversy.
First of all, I resent the attitude of the optometrists who have posted on this board. You have no business operating or considering it. And if you cannot understand why ophthalmologist and ophthalmology residents resent your posts and attitudes, then try this...

1. Go back to community college and pass Organic chemistry this time.
2. Take MCAT
3. Interview at Medical School
4. Rack up $130,000 in debt and spend your 20's in academic hell
5. Rise to the top of your medical school class and beat 90% of the nation on your USMLE I & II.
6. Match in Ophthalmology.
7. Spend a year of torture in Internship working 80 (haha) hours a week running codes, cross covering 50-100patients per night and getting paid ~ $6/hr, while continuing to neglect your wife and kids.
8. Then complete an ophthalmology residency with the prospect that some schmuck who couldn't/didn't go to medical school can do everything you can do.

If you can't understand why we would be upset, frustrated and angry, then please refrain from posting on this board and take your "We're as good as you" attitude to the Optom board.

Oh ya, happy friggin thanksgiving.

 

[speyeder]

Priceless.

For all the long time readers, I haven't posted in awhile, but I have tried to follow the threads. I am going to give a little unsolicited commentary on the whole O.D. controversy.
First of all, I resent the attitude of the optometrists who have posted on this board. You have no business operating or considering it. And if you cannot understand why ophthalmologist and ophthalmology residents resent your posts and attitudes, then try this...

1. Go back to community college and pass Organic chemistry this time.
2. Take MCAT
3. Interview at Medical School
4. Rack up $130,000 in debt and spend your 20's in academic hell
5. Rise to the top of your medical school class and beat 90% of the nation on your USMLE I & II.
6. Match in Ophthalmology.
7. Spend a year of torture in Internship working 80 (haha) hours a week running codes, cross covering 50-100patients per night and getting paid ~ $6/hr, while continuing to neglect your wife and kids.
8. Then complete an ophthalmology residency with the prospect that some schmuck who couldn't/didn't go to medical school can do everything you can do.

If you can't understand why we would be upset, frustrated and angry, then please refrain from posting on this board and take your "We're as good as you" attitude to the Optom board.

Oh ya, happy friggin thanksgiving.

 

[vanelo]

Well done!!!!

 

[Retinamark]

Well done, that's fantastic!

 

[packerhater]

For all the long time readers, I haven't posted in awhile, but I have tried to follow the threads. I am going to give a little unsolicited commentary on the whole O.D. controversy.
First of all, I resent the attitude of the optometrists who have posted on this board. You have no business operating or considering it. And if you cannot understand why ophthalmologist and ophthalmology residents resent your posts and attitudes, then try this...

1. Go back to community college and pass Organic chemistry this time.
2. Take MCAT
3. Interview at Medical School
4. Rack up $130,000 in debt and spend your 20's in academic hell
5. Rise to the top of your medical school class and beat 90% of the nation on your USMLE I & II.
6. Match in Ophthalmology.
7. Spend a year of torture in Internship working 80 (haha) hours a week running codes, cross covering 50-100patients per night and getting paid ~ $6/hr, while continuing to neglect your wife and kids.
8. Then complete an ophthalmology residency with the prospect that some schmuck who couldn't/didn't go to medical school can do everything you can do.

If you can't understand why we would be upset, frustrated and angry, then please refrain from posting on this board and take your "We're as good as you" attitude to the Optom board.

Oh ya, happy friggin thanksgiving.

Man the pent up anger.

FYI

1. I did pass organic chemistry
2 I did take OAT & MCAT
3. I did interview for optom and medicine
4. I did accrue $120,000+ in dept, academic hell sure but if you love it
5. I did rank in the top 10% on national boards
6. I did choose optometry

Congrats on all your other accomplishments. I would like to see civil exchanges of information so I can provide better care for my patients and consult with those that I need to consult with. Is that too much too ask for from others?

 

[knightrider]

Man the pent up anger.

FYI

1. I did pass organic chemistry
2 I did take OAT & MCAT
3. I did interview for optom and medicine
4. I did accrue $120,000+ in dept, academic hell sure but if you love it
5. I did rank in the top 10% on national boards
6. I did choose optometry

Congrats on all your other accomplishments. I would like to see civil exchanges of information so I can provide better care for my patients and consult with those that I need to consult with. Is that too much too ask for from others?

its not too much to ask, but...
1. passing organic chemistry and taking the mcat are not the same thing as excelling at organic chemistry and the mcat and then getting into a medical school and experiencing true "academic hell"
2. the national optometry boards are not the same thing as the national medical boards
3. choosing optometry school and calling it "academic hell" and foregoing 4 years of medical school, 1 year of internship, and 3 years of residency followed by for example a retina fellowhsip should not qualify as sufficient training for operating on the eye
4. civil exchanges of information to provide better care for our patients means accepting the limitations in your own training, and thus providing superior care to a patient by electing not to diagnoise conditions or perform surgical procedures on an unsuspecting, or unknowing patient.

the essential problem (NOT THAT YOU SUBSCRIBE TO ANY OF THESE NOTIONS) is that several optometrists have used their lobbying power to stretch outside of their boundaries with complete disregard for the safety of our patients and they have used these civil exchanges of information at national ophthalmology meetings/courses to faslely qualify themselves to diagnose and surgically treat conditions they have no training in this is much to the chagrin of trained ophthalmologists and ultimately an additional risk to the safety of our patients.

 

[packerhater]

its not too much to ask, but...
1. passing organic chemistry and taking the mcat are not the same thing as excelling at organic chemistry and the mcat and then getting into a medical school and experiencing true "academic hell"
2. the national optometry boards are not the same thing as the national medical boards
3. choosing optometry school and calling it "academic hell" and foregoing 4 years of medical school, 1 year of internship, and 3 years of residency followed by for example a retina fellowhsip should not qualify as sufficient training for operating on the eye
4. civil exchanges of information to provide better care for our patients means accepting the limitations in your own training, and thus providing superior care to a patient by electing not to diagnoise conditions or perform surgical procedures on an unsuspecting, or unknowing patient.

the essential problem (NOT THAT YOU SUBSCRIBE TO ANY OF THESE NOTIONS) is that several optometrists have used their lobbying power to stretch outside of their boundaries with complete disregard for the safety of our patients and they have used these civil exchanges of information at national ophthalmology meetings/courses to faslely qualify themselves to diagnose and surgically treat conditions they have no training in this is much to the chagrin of trained ophthalmologists and ultimately an additional risk to the safety of our patients.

Could i suffice to say that neither of us know exactly the educational demand on the other during school. I will admit that medical school is and should be most demanding. I will also attest that optometry school was no walk in the park. Our training is different yes, but each difficult. I have no doubt that i would have excelled in either. You dont get any professional degree without a head on your shoulders so to speak. I would also agree that some are testing the limits of their education. Could I go as far as saying this goes for OD's as well as MD's. I can say that from experience not questioning the abilities of any on this board. Being an ophthalmic surgeon is a noble thing and I would argue that with the right training any qualified individual should be allowed to become on. Does optometry school and residency qualify absolutely no, but what does ophthalmology want optometry to do refract and provide glasses and contact lenses only? I would attest that many OD's have the ability to do all they are trained to do, yes this does include some minor surgical procedures (as defined by CPT coding), and yes this does include the diagnosis and treatment of acute and chronic diseases.

 

[JennyW]

Sweet. My thoughts exactly.
You could add #9: Spend your career being referred to by the clueless general public (many of which our patients) as either a "optician" or "optometrist" or "optamologist", despite #'s 1-8. The only thing we have left is to call ourselves eye surgeons, although those lines are unfortunately beginning to blur....

Happy Friggin' Thanksgiving Everybody!

Wow.

If that's an issue for you, then you might want to see a therapist. You have some SERIOUS self esteem issues.

Jenny

 

[JennyW]

its not too much to ask, but...
1. passing organic chemistry and taking the mcat are not the same thing as excelling at organic chemistry and the mcat and then getting into a medical school and experiencing true "academic hell"
2. the national optometry boards are not the same thing as the national medical boards

*yawn*

Yet another tired post from someone who has to build themselves up by denegrating others.

1) I got an A in every year of organic chemistry that I took at Dartmouth, and I was a chemistry major, so I took WAY more organic chem courses, and WAY harder ones than the "pre-req" ones that most pre med and pre optom students take.

2) When did you take the national optometry boards??

Jenny

 

[JennyW]

Could i suffice to say that neither of us know exactly the educational demand on the other during school. I will admit that medical school is and should be most demanding. I will also attest that optometry school was no walk in the park. Our training is different yes, but each difficult. I have no doubt that i would have excelled in either. You dont get any professional degree without a head on your shoulders so to speak. I would also agree that some are testing the limits of their education. Could I go as far as saying this goes for OD's as well as MD's. I can say that from experience not questioning the abilities of any on this board. Being an ophthalmic surgeon is a noble thing and I would argue that with the right training any qualified individual should be allowed to become on. Does optometry school and residency qualify absolutely no, but what does ophthalmology want optometry to do refract and provide glasses and contact lenses only? I would attest that many OD's have the ability to do all they are trained to do, yes this does include some minor surgical procedures (as defined by CPT coding), and yes this does include the diagnosis and treatment of acute and chronic diseases.

Don't even bother trying to have civil discussions on these boards with anyone other than Dr. Doan, or mdkurt. Most of the people who post on here have serious self esteem issues it seems.

Jenny

 

[NSC]

Optometrists who want to do surgery want to do things that they are unqualified for. A few ophthalmologists do breast augmentation. Without examining the qualifications of each person who does it, it is questionable whether this is a good thing for them to do.

In terms of clinical numbers alone, optometry students see fewer patients than a first year ophthalmology resident. The ophthalmologists will have seen even more patients as a medical student, intern, 2nd year resident, 3rd year resident, and possibly fellow.

Would you like to have eye surgery by someone who has not gone to medical school, internship, and only has the patient numbers of a 1st year resident?

No thanks for me. Should dumb patients be left to fend for themselves or should there be consumer protection? That's a policy issue.

This is not to imply that optometrist are evil people. They have the skill and patience to fit contact lenses and refract. Refraction is not rubbish. It's an essential skill that people depend on.

 

[Richard_Hom]

They have the skill and patience to fit contact lenses and refract. Refraction is not rubbish. It's an essential skill that people depend on.

Dear NSC,

Despite your well meaning post, I still believe that you are not completely aware of what an optometrist is capable of.

Optometrists do more than refracting and contact lens fitting. What was once a view 30 years ago, is now a transformation where optometrists across the country are providing invaluable service as a first line entry point for primary eye care, management of chronic eye disease both before and after surgical intervention.

In my opinion, both professions can coexist if each uses their skills in situatiosn require high impact and high value. In other words, diabetic eyes prior to laser or surgical intervention can also be provided adequately by optometrists. In many cases, this care is at a lower cost and at a more accessible venue.

Much of the difficulties that optometry is perceived to have in regards to the types and numbers of patients is really an "artificial" barrier constructed by medicine to restrict training within hospitals and widespread reimbursement by third party payers. These barriers are "across the board" and without discrimination or regard to the level of service needed. In other words, "just becaus I'm an optometrist, I'm not able to be..."

In my opinion, the 'natural order' of things should require us to focus on the threats from without rather than within. In another 20 years or so, despite how ever much money our professions spend, there will be some amelioration which may be imposed upon us which won't necessarily satisfy either party. It will most likely be market or politically-based. If healthcare cannot come to some acommodation for all, some one else will do it.

IMHO of course,
Richard Hom

 

[speyeder]

I'm sure we can take a flight attendant and teach her how to fly a plane. We'll give her 500 hours of flying experience. At the end of those 500 hours, I'm sure she'll be fairly adept at maneuvering an aircraft. She might even be okay at landing one. But what happens when there's turbulence? What about a snow storm, or wind gusts of 70 m.p.h.? Would you feel confident having her behind the cockpit? More importantly would you want to be on that airplane when the first sign of trouble arises?

If you can relate to this analogy, then you can understand why optometrists shouldn't be doing vitrectomies. If you can't, then no amount of explaining will get this point across to you.

 

[mdkurt]

Man the pent up anger.

FYI

1. I did pass organic chemistry
2 I did take OAT & MCAT
3. I did interview for optom and medicine
4. I did accrue $120,000+ in dept, academic hell sure but if you love it
5. I did rank in the top 10% on national boards
6. I did choose optometry

Congrats on all your other accomplishments. I would like to see civil exchanges of information so I can provide better care for my patients and consult with those that I need to consult with. Is that too much too ask for from others?

Why did you choose optometry over medicine?

 

[Richard_Hom]

I'm sure we can take a flight attendant and teach her how to fly a plane. We'll give her 500 hours of flying experience. At the end of those 500 hours, I'm sure she'll be fairly adept at maneuvering an aircraft. She might even be okay at landing one. But what happens when there's turbulence? What about a snow storm, or wind gusts of 70 m.p.h.? Would you feel confident having her behind the cockpit? More importantly would you want to be on that airplane when the first sign of trouble arises?

If you can relate to this analogy, then you can understand why optometrists shouldn't be doing vitrectomies. If you can't, then no amount of explaining will get this point across to you.

Again speyedr,

Your analogy is "apples" and "oranges" I would think the better analogy would have been the flight engineer and the pilot. If this analogy is used, then you may be correct. But that is not my post and to assume that is missing my direction.

I'm not advocating surgical privileges. I'm just suggesting that all of this fighting isn't necessarily productive. And I also feel that the it is easy to get inflamed about this but it isn't necessarily relevant in most circumstances because most of these possibilities are only that, possibilities and not probable in my opinion.

With your approach, I'm not sure that you would ever get many optometrists to listen. And to diminish the emotion behind this subject, "surgical privileges", you will need to talk. Fighting alone just means that there is a whole lot of dollars being spent and making a whole of people rich (except for ophthalmologists and optometrists). Already, several legislatures tire of this infighting. The inertia is decidedly there and some amelioration is possible.

Richard
Richard

 

[NSC]

Should opticians be allowed to refract and fit contact lenses? How about also letting them do breast biopsies and prostate screening (digital rectal exam and PSA)?

If not, why not? Why not also allow optometrist to do prostate screening because this would increase patient access?

I think ophthalmologists should be allowed to practice certain types of law. Closing escrow, employment law, and simple wills should be allowed. The lawyers are just fighting a turf battle.

 

[dr. deez]

Should opticians be allowed to refract and fit contact lenses? How about also letting them do breast biopsies and prostate screening (digital rectal exam and PSA)?

If not, why not? Why not also allow optometrist to do prostate screening because this would increase patient access?

I think ophthalmologists should be allowed to practice certain types of law. Closing escrow, employment law, and simple wills should be allowed. The lawyers are just fighting a turf battle.

 

[limbus]

Don't even bother trying to have civil discussions on these boards with anyone other than Dr. Doan, or mdkurt. Most of the people who post on here have serious self esteem issues it seems.

Jenny

Jenny, I'm sure you will be or are a great optometrist, and that's great. No one is challenging your ability. However, most people here just flat out don't want you operating on them, their family, or their patients. Why? You don't learn surgery in a fellowship, but rather with many years of experience on multiple levels. Surgery is not just a skill-set, it is a way of life. You may have to leave the dinner table at Christmas to take care of a post-op complication. Are you ready and willing to do that? The responsibility that comes with doing surgery extends way beyond the education derived at optometry school, no matter how rigorous. The bottom line is that the patient must always come first, and these patients are at higher risk for bad outcomes, without exception. If there were a shortage of eye surgeons and there were hundreds waiting in line to get their "blindness" cured, then the tone might be different here. But until that happens, I won't be convinced that eye surgery should be done by anyone but an ophthalmologist.

 

[Richard_Hom]

Jenny, I'm sure you will be or are a great optometrist, and that's great. No one is challenging your ability. However, most people here just flat out don't want you operating on them, their family, or their patients. Why? You don't learn surgery in a fellowship, but rather with many years of experience on multiple levels. Surgery is not just a skill-set, it is a way of life. You may have to leave the dinner table at Christmas to take care of a post-op complication. ..."

Dear Doctor,

Again, I am not disputing the wisdom of whethe optomerists should do surgery, but I would like to enlighten you about your passage above. Your assumpion is that optomerists don't cover or do call of some sort. As a matter of fact, many optomerists across the country, sometimes in small rural remote areas, on military posts where there isn't another eye person,etc do take call from the emergency room. Although correctly said that surgical skills is a "way of life", I do feel that optometrists in many areas do take call and are interrupted routinely.I spent several years in the military at small remote posts where the population was about 18,000 and did take call two weeks out of the month.

Again, I'm not disputing your conclusion whether or not optometriss should do surgery but I dispute the notion that optometrists never get the exposure, training or experience of "call" or emergency room coverage.From my experience, I have a great respect for what could or does happen.

Regards,
Richard

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Could i suffice to say that neither of us know exactly the educational demand on the other during school. I will admit that medical school is and should be most demanding. I will also attest that optometry school was no walk in the park. Our training is different yes, but each difficult. I have no doubt that i would have excelled in either. You dont get any professional degree without a head on your shoulders so to speak. I would also agree that some are testing the limits of their education. Could I go as far as saying this goes for OD's as well as MD's. I can say that from experience not questioning the abilities of any on this board. Being an ophthalmic surgeon is a noble thing and I would argue that with the right training any qualified individual should be allowed to become on. Does optometry school and residency qualify absolutely no, but what does ophthalmology want optometry to do refract and provide glasses and contact lenses only? I would attest that many OD's have the ability to do all they are trained to do, yes this does include some minor surgical procedures (as defined by CPT coding), and yes this does include the diagnosis and treatment of acute and chronic diseases.

Well put!

There are two types of eye doctors---Optometrists and Opthalmologists. This is a fact the public and most medical professionals understand. Opthalmologists being surgeons as well. I am going to Optometry school and can say with conviction that I chose this over medicine because it is a better fit for me. Having a family full of MD's (brother is a surgery resident) I understand the instution of Allopathy very well and can tell you right now that the ABUSE you have taken for your comments are just a result of insecurity and defensive reactions to percieved threats to turf. Turf meaning that you did not go to Medical school , blah blah blah, and have no right (from thier point of view---OMD's) to do any kind of surgical procedures because you don't have that silly little M in front of your D instead of the O ....Hello? Family practice docs can perform minor procedures involving the eyes! Don't get me wrong---I have a hell of a lot of respect for OMD's--they bust thier asses to get to where they are...BUT so do OD's. And as to the comments you have recieved on here from your MD bretheren, realize they fought you for 25 years to prevent OD's from getting pharmaceutical rights in 50 states---they failed (as of 1997). They even called the institution of Osteopathy a cult in the past!--now the DO's are right next to them. This whole sugery thing is an inevitability----insurance companies want to pay less for the reimbursement!--------within ten years most states will allow Optometrists to do these surgical proceedures--it is just simple economics.....So just like podiatry and dentistry---who have podiatric surgery and OMFS residencies--optometry should and will have these......A four year residency would be just dandy to be an Optometric surgeon-----------WOW this is going to be talked about on here.......Maybe it will be an OS Optometric Surgeon . Anyway, keep up the good work Packerhater because in 4 years when I become an eye doctor (optometrist) I will lobby like crazy in my home state of Ohio and help expand the profession. Keep up the good work.

Soon to be matriculating Optometry student, BS, MS Health Education

and by the way I got an A in Organic chemistry at a 4 year school....

 

[speyeder]

Do you think surgery involves only performing a series of mechanical skills? Ophthalmologists need to know how to medically manage patients. They need to know about the interrelationships between the patient's ophthalmic problems and the patient's other medical problems. This knowledge is only aquired by going through the rigors of medical school, one year of prelim or transitional training, followed by ophthalmology residency +/- a subspecialty fellowship.

Those optometrists who advocate having surgical rights refuse to address the fact that maybe there really is and should be only 1 route to being allowed to operate.

Can paralegals practice law? No, not without going to law school and passing the bar.

Can anyone get behind a cockpit and fly a boeing 747? Not without getting a pilot's license.

Why should medicine be any different?

Well put!

There are two types of eye doctors---Optometrists and Opthalmologists. This is a fact the public and most medical professionals understand. Opthalmologists being surgeons as well. I am going to Optometry school and can say with conviction that I chose this over medicine because it is a better fit for me. Having a family full of MD's (brother is a surgery resident) I understand the instution of Allopathy very well and can tell you right now that the ABUSE you have taken for your comments are just a result of insecurity and defensive reactions to percieved threats to turf. Turf meaning that you did not go to Medical school , blah blah blah, and have no right (from thier point of view---OMD's) to do any kind of surgical procedures because you don't have that silly little M in front of your D instead of the O ....Hello? Family practice docs can perform minor procedures involving the eyes! Don't get me wrong---I have a hell of a lot of respect for OMD's--they bust thier asses to get to where they are...BUT so do OD's. And as to the comments you have recieved on here from your MD bretheren, realize they fought you for 25 years to prevent OD's from getting pharmaceutical rights in 50 states---they failed (as of 1997). They even called the institution of Osteopathy a cult in the past!--now the DO's are right next to them. This whole sugery thing is an inevitability----insurance companies want to pay less for the reimbursement!--------within ten years most states will allow Optometrists to do these surgical proceedures--it is just simple economics.....So just like podiatry and dentistry---who have podiatric surgery and OMFS residencies--optometry should and will have these......A four year residency would be just dandy to be an Optometric surgeon-----------WOW this is going to be talked about on here.......Maybe it will be an OS Optometric Surgeon . Anyway, keep up the good work Packerhater because in 4 years when I become an eye doctor (optometrist) I will lobby like crazy in my home state of Ohio and help expand the profession. Keep up the good work.

Soon to be matriculating Optometry student, BS, MS Health Education

and by the way I got an A in Organic chemistry at a 4 year school....

 

[mdkurt]

This whole sugery thing is an inevitability----insurance companies want to pay less for the reimbursement!--------within ten years most states will allow Optometrists to do these surgical proceedures--it is just simple economics.....

Another enlightened opinion from a first year optometry student. I can see that you've been programmed early in your education to "advance" optometry.

I'll take a second here to point out that optometrists will be seeking the same compensation as ophthalmologists for surgical procedures. It doesn't make sense, I know, but it's true.

Packerhater still hasn't answered my question, so I'll ask you. If you knuckleheads are wetting your pants so bad about getting to do surgery, why didn't you go to medical school?

 

[knightrider]

If you knuckleheads are wetting your pants so bad about getting to do surgery, why didn't you go to medical school?

Nicely put.
Now that is a damn good question.

 

[JennyW]

Well put!
I am going to Optometry school and can say with conviction that I chose this over medicine because it is a better fit for me. Having a family full of MD's (brother is a surgery resident) I understand the instution of Allopathy very well and can tell you right now that the ABUSE you have taken for your comments are just a result of insecurity and defensive reactions to percieved threats to turf. Turf meaning that you did not go to Medical school , blah blah blah, and have no right (from thier point of view---OMD's) to do any kind of surgical procedures because you don't have that silly little M in front of your D instead of the O ....Hello? Family practice docs can perform minor procedures involving the eyes! Don't get me wrong---I have a hell of a lot of respect for OMD's--they bust thier asses to get to where they are...BUT so do OD's. DO's are right next to them. This whole sugery thing is an inevitability----insurance companies want to pay less for the reimbursement!--------within ten years most states will allow Optometrists to do these surgical proceedures--it is just simple economics.....So just like podiatry and dentistry---who have podiatric surgery and OMFS residencies--optometry should and will have these......A four year residency would be just dandy to be an Optometric surgeon-----------WOW this is going to be talked about on here.......Maybe it will be an OS Optometric Surgeon . Anyway, keep up the good work Packerhater because in 4 years when I become an eye doctor (optometrist) I will lobby like crazy in my home state of Ohio and help expand the profession. Keep up the good work.

Soon to be matriculating Optometry student, BS, MS Health Education

and by the way I got an A in Organic chemistry at a 4 year school....

That is a poor idea.

Your desire to to "lobby like crazy to expand the profession" is not the way to become an eye surgeon. If this is truly what you want to do, you should be going to medical school.

Optometry is a primary care profession. And invasive ocular surgeries are NOT primary care.

I can also assure you that insurance companies are not going to use "optometric surgeons" as a way of performing cheaper surgeries because the "optometric surgeons" will demand equal pay for equal procedures.

You will find that there are many more important issues to lobby than the expansion of the profession.

Jenny

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

I am not implying that I would only help further "surgical proceedures"--there are a host of other issues far more important than surgery. I personally have no intention of doing surgery myself--I will stick with primary care BUT I feel that the ESTABLISHMENT (traditional Allopathy) has too much of a monopoly on health care as it stands today. I love the biomedical model and all that medical ideology stuff I have been fed for years but the fact stands that Allopathy whether we are talking about ocular health or whatever is analogous to the big oil companies at the turn of the century--it is a TRUST... Whether you are a Doctor of Optometry, Doctor of Podiatry, Doctor of Dental Surgery, or a Doctor of Chiropractic----all of these professions have fought tremendous legal battles with allopathy to be where they are--for example Dr. Chester Wilks D.C vs AMA (1987)---permanent injunction against the AMA by the Supreme Court preventing exclusionary practices against Doctors of Chiropractic. This issue for me is a philosophical one at the highest level. My Dentist that I saw for years (practiced for 32 years) had suffered thru many of the legal battles his profession engaged in with Medicine. Patient safety is the primary concern---I agree....but doing "surgical procedures" on the anterior chamber such as corneal abrasion, some LASIK procedures, can be safely done by a PROPERLY trained Optometrist. Let's not kid ourselves here and think that an OD can go to a few seminars and do any of the more serious surgeries (any posterior chamber stuff)----only an Opthalmologist can and should. You are not a surgeon unless you do a residency to become one---- like I previously mentioned---there was a very intense 4 or maybe 5 year optometric surgery residency program given by Opthalmologist attendings....I think that 8-9 years total would suffice to be a general optometric surgeon------maybe analogous to OMF surgeons---they do NOT have an MD (or DO).....Podiatric Surgeons--have a 4 year residency program (there is one at the Cleveland Clinic system in Ohio) and they do not possess an MD either!
My whole point is---study history of any of the professions (DDS, OD, DPM, DC) that I mentioned and you will find thru all the smokescreening about patient safety, lack of having a medical degree,---the REAL reason behind highly defensive responses and degrading of these professions (like the degrading comments from some Opthalmology folk on here) is ----------------------drum roll-----------TURF, POLITICS, and MONEY.
I can hear the response now----why didn't you just go to medical school?...If that were the case then every Dentist, Optometrist,etccc were in thier profession by default---this is absurd.......History is so important-----------READ about it.........I cannot wait to become an eye doctor and work in symbiosis with my Opthalmology brothers and sisters BUT my reason for lobbying is an ethical one and with the promotion of equity in health care---enlightenment has more paths than just thru allopathy. I love of politics and I will champion that cause........

That is a poor idea.

Your desire to to "lobby like crazy to expand the profession" is not the way to become an eye surgeon. If this is truly what you want to do, you should be going to medical school.

Optometry is a primary care profession. And invasive ocular surgeries are NOT primary care.

I can also assure you that insurance companies are not going to use "optometric surgeons" as a way of performing cheaper surgeries because the "optometric surgeons" will demand equal pay for equal procedures.

You will find that there are many more important issues to lobby than the expansion of the profession.

Jenny

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

With all due respect I feel just like Podiatry and Dentistry (OMFS), there should be an Optometry route for surgery as well (maybe a 5 yr residency)and eventually there will be. That said I have a lot of respect for Opthalmology........

Another enlightened opinion from a first year optometry student. I can see that you've been programmed early in your education to "advance" optometry.

I'll take a second here to point out that optometrists will be seeking the same compensation as ophthalmologists for surgical procedures. It doesn't make sense, I know, but it's true.

Packerhater still hasn't answered my question, so I'll ask you. If you knuckleheads are wetting your pants so bad about getting to do surgery, why didn't you go to medical school?

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Do you think surgery involves only performing a series of mechanical skills? Ophthalmologists need to know how to medically manage patients. They need to know about the interrelationships between the patient's ophthalmic problems and the patient's other medical problems. This knowledge is only aquired by going through the rigors of medical school, one year of prelim or transitional training, followed by ophthalmology residency +/- a subspecialty fellowship.

Those optometrists who advocate having surgical rights refuse to address the fact that maybe there really is and should be only 1 route to being allowed to operate.

Can paralegals practice law? No, not without going to law school and passing the bar.

Can anyone get behind a cockpit and fly a boeing 747? Not without getting a pilot's license.

Why should medicine be any different?

You make a valid point. Take 4 years of optometry school----training to become a primary care eye doctor and add onto it a 5 yr surgery residency----9 years total should suffice to create an Optometric surgeon----like an DDS who is an OMFS.

 

[xmattODx]

You make a valid point. Take 4 years of optometry school----training to become a primary care eye doctor and add onto it a 5 yr surgery residency----9 years total should suffice to create an Optometric surgeon----like an DDS who is an OMFS.

What would the point of this be? Why not just go to medical school? You'll find the optometry curriculum is not as 'intense' as some would have you believe. I don't think that it, in its current state, offers enough to even prepare a student for such a residency and even if such a residency existed what would its purpose be? Ophthalmologists do a great job of surgery what would optometric surgeons add?

 

[speyeder]

You make a fair point in that doing an optometry residency could in theory provide the mechanical skills necessary to perform ocular surgery.

But what about the medical knowledge garnered from medical school and 1 year of medical, non-ophthalmology residency, in which OMD's learn how to care for some of the sickest patients imaginable in the ICU, CCU and medical floors?

How do you make this up? My point is that I don't think optometrists can, short of getting an MD.

You make a valid point. Take 4 years of optometry school----training to become a primary care eye doctor and add onto it a 5 yr surgery residency----9 years total should suffice to create an Optometric surgeon----like an DDS who is an OMFS.

 

[JennyW]

----------------------drum roll-----------TURF, POLITICS, and MONEY.
I can hear the response now----why didn't you just go to medical school?...If that were the case then every Dentist, Optometrist,etccc were in thier profession by default---this is absurd.......History is so important-----------READ about it.........I cannot wait to become an eye doctor and work in symbiosis with my Opthalmology brothers and sisters BUT my reason for lobbying is an ethical one and with the promotion of equity in health care---enlightenment has more paths than just thru allopathy. I love of politics and I will champion that cause........

Wow. "Symbiosis with your ophthalmology brothers and sisters???" You are in for one rude awakening.

Dentistry and podiatry have historically been "surgical" fields. Optometry has not. Optometry has historically been a primary care "exam" field. And it should stay that way.

Though I disagree with many of the OMDs on here, I agree with them on this one. There is not an unmet demand for ocular surgeons except in a very small number of very select regions of the country.

Jenny

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Wow. "Symbiosis with your ophthalmology brothers and sisters???" You are in for one rude awakening.

Dentistry and podiatry have historically been "surgical" fields. Optometry has not. Optometry has historically been a primary care "exam" field. And it should stay that way.

Though I disagree with many of the OMDs on here, I agree with them on this one. There is not an unmet demand for ocular surgeons except in a very small number of very select regions of the country.

Jenny

Remember I am on your side....lol
Ok----gimme a synopsis about "you are in for one rude awakening." Do you find most Opthalmologists don't respect you? Explain what you mean by this?

 

[Caffeinated]

I was once an occasional poster, but now I'm just an infrequent lurker on this board. I read over this thread, and I went back and forth over whether or not I would post a reply. I doubt that I will change many minds, so at first it seems futile to contribute. Nevertheless, I have a perspective that is not very common, so I'll throw my virtual 2 cents into the discussion. My background: I graduated from an OD school in 2000, practiced for 3 years, and I am now a second year medical student.

First, med school is not optometry school, that is quite certain. Sure, there is some overlap in the course structure (anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc.). However, the level of detail covered in these courses is MUCH deeper and broader as a med student. Optometry school is definitely not a cake walk--the course work is challenging, but med school is even more voluminous and challenging, and it requires even greater skill in management of my time and study habits.

Second, there is a component of medical education that is not found in optometric education. I can't quite describe it, but those of you who are in medical school or who have graduated will understand what I mean. The best way I can think to describe it is that medical school teaches you how to be "invasive." I don't mean that in a violent or sadistic way. Rather, it is a mindset that teaches that to treat a person, you need to know things about them and see parts of them that the average person on the street doesn't get to know or see. It starts when you uncover the cadaver in anatomy. Last week I did my first digital rectal exam. There was NOTHING in optometry school that could have prepared me (mentally or otherwise) for that experience. But in medical school, these kinds of things are expected of you, and the process of making you into a person who can handle it begins in the first few days of medical school. The DRE is one small example that I can point to in my recent past. But this can be extrapolated to other things such as taking a sexual history, taking a scalpel to a patient, or telling a patient that they are dying. It is this kind of preparation that I believe is required for the art and science of medical and surgical management of patients, ophthalmological or otherwise.

Optometric patient care is not trivial, and it has an art and science that is unique to that profession. But it's a big stretch to suggest that one's training as an OD makes them ready to tackle surgical training. It's an insult to both optometry and ophthalmology. It's a sad reality that many optometrists will at some point become frustrated by the limitations on what they can do as optometrists. Most optometrists are bright and ambitious people, and this is can be a source of frustration in one's professional growth. This is what happened to me. Most optometrists find a good outlet for that frustration, whether that is becoming a more savvy business person, or getting really good at a particular facet of optometric care. Sadly, some have chose to try to overcome their frustration by trying to become more "ophthalmology-like" by pushing the legal limitations on their scope of practice or inventing new names for optometrists (eg., "optometric physicians", "optometric surgeons", etc). But an expanded scope in the state legislature doesn't negate a lack of training. As was previously suggested, if there were a national crisis for eye surgeons, then as a society we might be ready to cut some corners and start fast-tracking optometrists to become eye surgeons. But that is not the case, and that is not likely to happen in my lifetime.

Ok, so that took longer than I expected. I better get back to my viruses and fungi.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

My background: I graduated from an OD school in 2000, practiced for 3 years, and I am now a second year medical student...

First, med school is not optometry school, that is quite certain...

Second, there is a component of medical education that is not found in optometric education...

Optometric patient care is not trivial, and it has an art and science that is unique to that profession. But it's a big stretch to suggest that one's training as an OD makes them ready to tackle surgical training...

Most optometrists are bright and ambitious people, and this is can be a source of frustration in one's professional growth. This is what happened to me. Most optometrists find a good outlet for that frustration, whether that is becoming a more savvy business person, or getting really good at a particular facet of optometric care. Sadly, some have chose to try to overcome their frustration by trying to become more "ophthalmology-like" by pushing the legal limitations on their scope of practice or inventing new names for optometrists (eg., "optometric physicians", "optometric surgeons", etc). But an expanded scope in the state legislature doesn't negate a lack of training...

Thanks for your contribution and unique perspective!

 

[JennyW]

Remember I am on your side....lol
Ok----gimme a synopsis about "you are in for one rude awakening." Do you find most Opthalmologists don't respect you? Explain what you mean by this?

There are some that do respect me. There are some that don't. That's OK. I don't need anyones approval to stroke my ego. I only refer to OMDs that do respect me and my abilities, and we have a good relationship.

But you are very unlikely to have a "symbiotic" relationship. Most of the referals are "one-way."

From your posts, I am guessing that you don't have a very good handle on what the profession of optometry is or the challenges that face it or the direction that it is heading. This is not an insult to you. But I'm getting the impression that you have been fed a line by the schools and you're all excited and ready to go.

Jenny

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

I was once an occasional poster, but now I'm just an infrequent lurker on this board. I read over this thread, and I went back and forth over whether or not I would post a reply. I doubt that I will change many minds, so at first it seems futile to contribute. Nevertheless, I have a perspective that is not very common, so I'll throw my virtual 2 cents into the discussion. My background: I graduated from an OD school in 2000, practiced for 3 years, and I am now a second year medical student.

First, med school is not optometry school, that is quite certain. Sure, there is some overlap in the course structure (anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc.). However, the level of detail covered in these courses is MUCH deeper and broader as a med student. Optometry school is definitely not a cake walk--the course work is challenging, but med school is even more voluminous and challenging, and it requires even greater skill in management of my time and study habits.

Second, there is a component of medical education that is not found in optometric education. I can't quite describe it, but those of you who are in medical school or who have graduated will understand what I mean. The best way I can think to describe it is that medical school teaches you how to be "invasive." I don't mean that in a violent or sadistic way. Rather, it is a mindset that teaches that to treat a person, you need to know things about them and see parts of them that the average person on the street doesn't get to know or see. It starts when you uncover the cadaver in anatomy. Last week I did my first digital rectal exam. There was NOTHING in optometry school that could have prepared me (mentally or otherwise) for that experience. But in medical school, these kinds of things are expected of you, and the process of making you into a person who can handle it begins in the first few days of medical school. The DRE is one small example that I can point to in my recent past. But this can be extrapolated to other things such as taking a sexual history, taking a scalpel to a patient, or telling a patient that they are dying. It is this kind of preparation that I believe is required for the art and science of medical and surgical management of patients, ophthalmological or otherwise.

Optometric patient care is not trivial, and it has an art and science that is unique to that profession. But it's a big stretch to suggest that one's training as an OD makes them ready to tackle surgical training. It's an insult to both optometry and ophthalmology. It's a sad reality that many optometrists will at some point become frustrated by the limitations on what they can do as optometrists. Most optometrists are bright and ambitious people, and this is can be a source of frustration in one's professional growth. This is what happened to me. Most optometrists find a good outlet for that frustration, whether that is becoming a more savvy business person, or getting really good at a particular facet of optometric care. Sadly, some have chose to try to overcome their frustration by trying to become more "ophthalmology-like" by pushing the legal limitations on their scope of practice or inventing new names for optometrists (eg., "optometric physicians", "optometric surgeons", etc). But an expanded scope in the state legislature doesn't negate a lack of training. As was previously suggested, if there were a national crisis for eye surgeons, then as a society we might be ready to cut some corners and start fast-tracking optometrists to become eye surgeons. But that is not the case, and that is not likely to happen in my lifetime.

Ok, so that took longer than I expected. I better get back to my viruses and fungi.

Very well stated response. You make outstanding points and I wish you the best of luck. I agree with most of what you said because I know from my family (Dad--Cardiologist Mom--Internal Medicine Brother--Surgeon) You seem to have self-confidence and humility and that is a model for some of the more arrogant and reactionary people on here to look to for guidance. I will say though that my business card will say either Optometric Physician or Eye Physician-------not for semantics sake rather I feel they are 100% validated terms..........

 

[JennyW]

I will say though that my business card will say either Optometric Physician or Eye Physician-------not for semantics sake rather I feel they are 100% validated terms..........

Why would you not simply say "optometrist?"

Jenny

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

There are some that do respect me. There are some that don't. That's OK. I don't need anyones approval to stroke my ego. I only refer to OMDs that do respect me and my abilities, and we have a good relationship.

But you are very unlikely to have a "symbiotic" relationship. Most of the referals are "one-way."

From your posts, I am guessing that you don't have a very good handle on what the profession of optometry is or the challenges that face it or the direction that it is heading. This is not an insult to you. But I'm getting the impression that you have been fed a line by the schools and you're all excited and ready to go.

Jenny

Actually I do have a good handle on it because I have been around the profession for a couple of years shadowing, volunteering, and doing personal research....it is a profession in growth and turning a corner.....Optometry is the primary provider of primary eye care in this country (75% of patients see an OD first) and I feel that is a noble and respectable cause. I have no desire whatsoever to be a Allopath or an Osteopath but I respect them immensely and will work with them for the benefit of my future patients. My familial connections will help when I am done. That said I am not "easily" influenced by Optometric Propaganda from OD schools rather I accept what I choose to and go with it. We are all salespeople in one way or another----selling our services....the schools selling themselves for financial and political expansion.......Like I said it boils down to three things from an institutional standpoint----$$$$$$$, political power, and turf.

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Thanks for your contribution and unique perspective!

Dr Doan,

I have a couple questions that I would love to have an objective response about.....I will preface this by saying that I really don't care what other peoples opinions are rather I concern myself if I am doing my job and taking care of responsibilities. In your opinion as an Opthalmologist, what is the general perception of most of your Opthalmic conterparts about the view of doctors of optometry by opthalmologists in the area of 1. Professional Respect 2. Trust--with thier patients (are all referrals really one way OD to OMD?) 3. Behind closed doors---what do they really think about Optometrists? 4. Your experience with them.....I will say that I love Optometry and this is what I am going to do for the rest of my live---be an Optometric Physician.....You seem to be rational and objective so fill me in!!!!!!! thanks

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Why would you not simply say "optometrist?"

Jenny

I feel that Optometric Physician is more professional but a synonym. I will use them interchangably in conversation but on paper........Doctor of Optometry or Optometric Physician........

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

You make a fair point in that doing an optometry residency could in theory provide the mechanical skills necessary to perform ocular surgery.

But what about the medical knowledge garnered from medical school and 1 year of medical, non-ophthalmology residency, in which OMD's learn how to care for some of the sickest patients imaginable in the ICU, CCU and medical floors?

How do you make this up? My point is that I don't think optometrists can, short of getting an MD.

You make a good point......The first two years of most professional schools in health fields are similar---in terms of basic science.....the final two are very different after that....2 years of preceptorship in ob, surgery, cardio, etc..for Medical students where optometry is soley focused on the visual system--refraction and treating disorders....There is a signifigant gap.....What I would propose would be a 5 year Medical-Surgical residency-----meaning you would do your medical training for the first 1 1/2 years followed by surgery training for the remainder.....Preceptorship for med students is 24 months....Optometry school +(1-2 years medical preceptorship + 3 years of surgical training)--5 yr residency would be adequate to have a general optometric surgeon.....this is entirely optional for an OD......You can stick with primary eye medicine or choose to go the route of ODS......(doctor of optometric surgery)----I just made this term up lol for the sake of argument.......think about it DDS's with OMFS labels spend about 9 years as well.

 

[speyeder]

If you like the primary care aspect of optometry but also want surgical rights, why not just become an ophthalmologist? This is what ophthalmologists do, see patients in both clinical and surgical settings. What you're proposing would result in no difference in scope of practice between optometric surgeons and ophthalmologists.

You make a good point......The first two years of most professional schools in health fields are similar---in terms of basic science.....the final two are very different after that....2 years of preceptorship in ob, surgery, cardio, etc..for Medical students where optometry is soley focused on the visual system--refraction and treating disorders....There is a signifigant gap.....What I would propose would be a 5 year Medical-Surgical residency-----meaning you would do your medical training for the first 1 1/2 years followed by surgery training for the remainder.....Preceptorship for med students is 24 months....Optometry school +(1-2 years medical preceptorship + 3 years of surgical training)--5 yr residency would be adequate to have a general optometric surgeon.....this is entirely optional for an OD......You can stick with primary eye medicine or choose to go the route of ODS......(doctor of optometric surgery)----I just made this term up lol for the sake of argument.......think about it DDS's with OMFS labels spend about 9 years as well.

 

[exmike]

I feel that Optometric Physician is more professional but a synonym. I will use them interchangably in conversation but on paper........Doctor of Optometry or Optometric Physician........

If you are so intent on "expanding the scope of optometric practice" to include lasik and other surgeries, why didnt you just go to med school and specialize in ophthalmology? Then you wouldnt have to "fight" the system. It doesnt make sense to me that you want to do exactly what OMDs are trained to do, yet you would rather go to OD school and expand the scope to include OMD practice arena. I'm really confused.

 

[smiegal]

We certainly have a sprightly little bugger in FutureEYEdoc9! Being an Optometrist in your specific family situation, F.E.D.9, is certainly not a reason for insecurity or impudence, even if you weren't accepted into medical school. Trust me, I am very familiar with that situation and very few truly have the types of feelings you may be projecting upon them. The disrespect just isn't out there.

Your desire to to "lobby like crazy to expand the profession" is not the way to become an eye surgeon. If this is truly what you want to do, you should be going to medical school.

Optometry is a primary care profession. And invasive ocular surgeries are NOT primary care.

I can also assure you that insurance companies are not going to use "optometric surgeons" as a way of performing cheaper surgeries because the "optometric surgeons" will demand equal pay for equal procedures.

You will find that there are many more important issues to lobby than the expansion of the profession.
Jenny

Jenny, I have always respected your posts, and this one is particularly laudable. I feel that both Oph's and Opt's alike have the responsability of drawing a line in the sand between themselves and their peers on the fringes. I fault the many reasonable Optometrists who fail to do so with respect to their peers promoting O.D. intraocular and laser surgery (as I do with the Oph's who believe they are solely capable of removing an FB or inserting a punctal plug).

For all the respect I have for Dr. Hom (which seems undoubtedly deserved), I still find this comment of his from 4/28/04 inexplicable: "In regards to surgical privileges for optometry, that's a subject I prefer to avoid as that isn't a productive subject for me in my current circumstance"

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

If you are so intent on "expanding the scope of optometric practice" to include lasik and other surgeries, why didnt you just go to med school and specialize in ophthalmology? Then you wouldnt have to "fight" the system. It doesnt make sense to me that you want to do exactly what OMDs are trained to do, yet you would rather go to OD school and expand the scope to include OMD practice arena. I'm really confused.

Evolution of a profession takes time and diligence.....I actually have no interest in doing surgery myself---I will refer to a good OMD for that or an OD for some Lasik stuff. I just feel that there should be another route for some ocular surgery and I think in the long run it would give a few OD's the ability to do this without completely invalidating their degree and going back to medical school....lol GOD 4 yrs (for OD) + 1 yr residency +4 yrs (MD or DO) + 4 years opthamology residency----why would anybody do this? There should be two different paths arriving at the same place--it is healthy economics----Capitalism.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Evolution of a profession takes time and diligence.....I actually have no interest in doing surgery myself---I will refer to a good OMD for that or an OD for some Lasik stuff. I just feel that there should be another route for some ocular surgery and I think in the long run it would give a few OD's the ability to do this without completely invalidating their degree and going back to medical school....lol GOD 4 yrs (for OD) + 1 yr residency +4 yrs (MD or DO) + 4 years opthamology residency----why would anybody do this? There should be two different paths arriving at the same place--it is healthy economics----Capitalism.

You're naive and are rather clueless about what we learn during residency. Without the knowledge obtained from medical school, many concepts about the medical and surgical management of patients will not be mastered. BTW, ODs can only do PRK NOT LASIK. There's ONLY one state that you can get PRK done by an OD. You can go to OK to get the PRK.

Also, if you want to know my feelings about optometry, then read the section about the surgical scope fund in my FAQ. I have respect for optometrists, but I do not agree that they should practice surgery.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

lol GOD 4 yrs (for OD) + 1 yr residency +4 yrs (MD or DO) + 4 years opthamology residency----why would anybody do this?

Exactly.

Before someone pursues a doctoral degree, the student should know what s/he wants to do. For those who want to do surgery, they do 4 years of medical school and then 4 years of a medical and surgical ophthalmology residency. And those who do not want to do surgery and enjoy primary care, then they should go to 4 years of optometry school. BTW, only a fraction of optometry graduates complete 1 year of optometric residency (and it's not medically intensive either, i.e. inpatient, serious orbital trauma, serious ocular diseases, etc...).

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

You're naive and are rather clueless about what we learn during residency. Without the knowledge obtained from medical school, many concepts about the medical and surgical management of patients will not be mastered. BTW, ODs can only do PRK NOT LASIK. There's ONLY one state that you can get PRK done by an OD. You can go to OK to get the PRK.

Also, if you want to know my feelings about optometry, then read the section about the surgical scope fund in my FAQ. I have respect for optometrists, but I do not agree that they should practice surgery.

I am actually not naive about residencies----my brother is in one. What I was trying to say in a previous post was....with a 5 yr medical-surgical residency for optometrists where the first 16 months of that fills in the "gap" of general medical training and the following 44 months would be equivalent to a general opthalmology residency would be sufficient for a General Optometric Surgeon. I am talking about 9 years including optometry school---a legitamate track to surgery----like DDS OMFS---they do not possess an MD neither does an ortho DPM...both of these have a 4 yr residency. I personally have no interest in doing surgery when I finish BUT I do believe there should be an Optometric Surgery Residency...there has to be growth in the profession and that would give the few OD's who want to pursue that a LEGITAMATE avenue for it......I respect your opinions but do not appreciate being called "clueless"---I know more than you might realize...... I just feel allopathy has manipulated the instutution of medicine to suit its own economic and political purposes. I support what you call "mid-level" practitioners...I call them Doctors just like MD's and DO's....just not medical doctors......Honestly, how much of your opposition to Optometric surgery (if done properly---with a 5 yr mediclal-opthalmic surgery residency) REALLY is patient safety versus just believing that since OD's did not go to medical school thus they have not "the right of passage" like you and your counterparts. With that type of thinking DPM's would do nothing but take care of Diabetic feet--no Podiatric Surgeon (orthos still don't really respect them), DDS's would just fill cavities and have no Oral Maxillo-Facial surgery residencies! Instead of Opthalmology opposing Optometric surgery completely (like they presently do) why not help legitamize it--because OMD's claim to be so concerned about patient safety--I have read sooooo many articles about this----by helping establish a legitamate track---5yr residency......Would you rather have OD's go to seminars for anterior chamber eye surgery instead? Optometry's lobbying machine is more stout than Opthalmology--much more...they have thier own autonomous state licensing boards.......they will eventually get some surgical rights in state practice scopes......Work together not against each other......


that said------medical residency is hell and very thorough...this I do know

 

[FutureEYEdoc09]

Exactly.

Before someone pursues a doctoral degree, the student should know what s/he wants to do. For those who want to do surgery, they do 4 years of medical school and then 4 years of a medical and surgical ophthalmology residency. And those who do not want to do surgery and enjoy primary care, then they should go to 4 years of optometry school. BTW, only a fraction of optometry graduates complete 1 year of optometric residency (and it's not medically intensive either, i.e. inpatient, serious orbital trauma, serious ocular diseases, etc...).

Your point is well taken............

 

[Richard_Hom]

For all the respect I have for Dr. Hom (which seems undoubtedly deserved), I still find this comment of his from 4/28/04 inexplicable: "In regards to surgical privileges for optometry, that's a subject I prefer to avoid as that isn't a productive subject for me in my current circumstance"

Der smiegal,

I think I've said my position previously on the subject. I prefer to listen to the logic of the arguement. A good arguement deserves an audience. However, if a conclusion, despite its good intention, is based upon some misconception, then it tends to lessen the impact of the desired outcome.

It is similar to say that you should wear a rain coat outside because it is raining, but you tell the audience that they don't know what rain is. I may agree with you that a rain coat is necessary but I would first take issue that an assumption which is mistaken might lead you to say what you did. In my mind, you could have still come to that conclusion.

In some respects, this type of logic is similar to patient care. You might have come to the same conclusion about the diagnosis or treatment plan, but I would have rather that the outcomes on correct rather than incorrect assumptions.

As Dr. Doan may have said before, he sees referral patients but maybe the patient wasn't referred to him for the correct reason. The outcome is the same in that the patient went to him.

To me the logic behind one's reasoning is just as important as focusing on the outcome. Whethe society rewards such efforts remains to be seen. In some cases, I feel that we're extremely focused on the outcome regardless of the means. "measn to an end"?

IMHO,
Richard Hom