If Drumph wins, I’ll blame the democrats.

[pgg]

Since we don’t have a ranked-choice presidential election and it is based on winner-takes-all, it does appear on the surface that voting for a 3rd party is a “wasted vote”.

Even given the fact that we have one of the worst of all possible systems, the very fact that we're having this discussion now is proof that third party votes aren't "wasted". They affect the election in question, and they affect the aftermath, and they affect how people and parties behave in the future. That's not waste. That's a result contrary to some partisans' preferences, but it isn't waste.

Just because that effect isn't aligned with what someone wishes had happened doesn't mean the vote was a zero-impact waste.

I got something for my 3rd party votes.

Both sides use this argument as a scare tactic to keep people from voting for anyone other than their candidate.

This is a true quandary for so many of us here who are center-right, moderate and independent voters, who deeply care about our country and our children’s future-there is no easy choice here, when both the choices seem so wrong on so many levels.

This is how the 2 political parties have gotten away with nominating poor candidates every four years and then persuading the electorate by portraying the opposing candidate as the “most evil” and telling you that the most evil candidate will win the election, unless you vote for their candidate as the lesser of two evils.

Agreed on all points

America will lose no matter who wins- Trump or Biden, as neither is worthy of the office.

That's a false equivalence. As flawed as Biden is, his administration not even on the same planet of incompetence and malfeasance as Trump.

The second-biggest problem with Trump was the absolute bizarre knack he had for choosing the dumbest and least qualified human beings on the planet to be his advisors and cabinet members. A massive herd of them were so dumb and so bad that even Trump understood he had to replace them. Biden may well be 42% senile but the people around him aren't universally stupid they way Trump's ever-changing inner circle was.

Biden is a better president than Trump second term would have been, simply because he's not constantly lighting **** on fire to see what might burn.

The fact remains, all these arguments about how bad or good third-party voting is all changed after trump.

Yep. This is why I'll vote for the Democrat if Trump is the nominee in 2024. A few short years ago I struggled to imagine a world in which I voted D, but here we are. Trump is awful enough that the small utility of my 3rd party vote is outweighed not so much by the risk of him actually winning (there's no chance), but by him losing by a margin small enough that his cultist followers have a little bit of oxygen they don't deserve.

If he runs again, I want him to get dunked on the way LeBron would destroy a 3rd grade fat kid.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Voting third party is the equivalent of not voting.

Not even close. It let's the people and politicians know who out there thinks you are so bad it's not worth voting for either. It generates momentum for a better alternative. If everybody caves and votes for one of the two horrible choices then there is zero incentive to offer up better next time. The alternative vote is an important expression.

 

[epidural man]

Funny you accuse me of having blindfolds on when it’s pretty clear which corner you stand in.

Really? I wonder why. I stand pretty left on many things. By the way, the corner I stand on in this case, is the corner that values an honest vote, not one that is trying to predict the maximal benefit effect out of the vote.

When teaching my kids to be honest, I try and tell them that you be honest because it is the best thing to do. It doesn't try to predict outcome, and make a choice based on that. It just does what is right. Being dishonest sometimes gives a much better outcome. But I like honesty better.

Same with third-party voting. I do what is right, without thought to outcome, because I believe casting my vote is a powerful right given by our country. It is a sacred, wonderful thing. I will not waste it.

What corner is that? Is that a right or left thing?

Biden (I must have missed the part where the forgone conclusion that he is the worst president in history had some sort of supporting information).

I just want to point out - I never said he was the worst president in history. I said he was the worst candidate. Those are VERY different things. Hillary probably was close. Actually, he hasn't done that bad as president. He has made some bad choices, but every president does - par for the course.

This idea that great candidates don't usually make great presidents, and people that would be great presidents probably are horrible candidates - is a fascinating topic. Michael Lewis - on his podcast "breaking the rules" has a great episode on this idea.

 

[epidural man]

Not even close. It let's the people and politicians know who out there thinks you are so bad it's not worth voting for either. It generates momentum for a better alternative. If everybody caves and votes for one of the two horrible choices then there is zero incentive to offer up better next time. The alternative vote is an important expression.

If everyone voted for who they really liked, I suspect the two party system would fall apart.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

This is a dumb comment which adds nothing of value to the discussion. Try not to drool too much on your next voting ballot.

And I didn’t vote for Biden by the way.

Oh, then keep your moral high ground that you are so much better than anybody that voted for Trump... 🙄

 

[deleted1156722]

If everyone voted for who they really liked, I suspect the two party system would fall apart.

Would love for that to happen! Maybe witnessing a larger and progressively growing “Alternative Candidate/ Protest Vote”, Congress could be motivated to act and move to a system of proportional representation and multi-part democracy!

Of course, Multiparty democracy is not perfect. But it is likely far superior in supporting the main goals of democratic governance as originally intended-one that includes diversity of thoughts and compromise, instead of the capitulation and stone-walling!

 

[epidural man]

Things are going great, though I feel bad for the Ukrainians who're suffering at the hands of the Russians.

Of all the $trillions we've spent on weapons since the Cold War started, the weapons sent to Ukraine have undeniably been the best bang for buck. We're watching the accelerated disintegration of the Russian war machine and we barely even have to lift a finger.

Just think - we made all that stuff for the purpose of shooting Russians as they drove through Poland to invade Europe. Now they're being put to use and not a single NATO life is at risk.

I haven't gotten tired of watching Russians and Russian military hardware get blown up in Ukraine, and I won't until they crawl home on on whatever limbs they have remaining. I don't even care if there's a Hunter Biden laptop and a Zelensky slush fund.

The only way I could be geopolitically happier with Russia's Ukrainian adventure would be if China wasn't profiting from Russia's self destruction.



LOLWUT


You mean the strategy the west employed to encourage the end of the war the last time Russia invaded Ukraine (and took Crimea)? That little bit of appeasement and hope didn't work out so well, no.



Yes.



Yeah that won't happen. The nuclear risk is proliferation and loss of control of weapons to non-state actors.

Putin is in no danger of losing control of Russia. He's as rational (and evil) as the North Korean regime.

@pgg
Can you comment on this tweet (or more specifically, on the idea conveyed)?

 

[vector2]

Quoting vector2 here: “Don't get me wrong, Biden was a flawed candidate (just like every other president), but I think Republicans absolutely love to ignore how and why he got elected. Biden won because he's an establishment neoliberal moderate.”

Biden could be a moderate compared to the extremely progressive Bernie Sanders, but he is definitely significantly more left compared to all the previous Dem presidential nominees we have had. ( focusing on his current policies and not what he supported some decades ago when he was a moderate). This is very telling indeed of the current Democratic party’s pronounced leftward lurch- Biden is considered as a “moderate neoliberal” according to the standard of his party.

It's all relative, whether we're talking intraparty, between the two parties, or society in general. Look at gay marriage. The moderate democratic position used to be against gay marriage. Now from a polling standpoint over 70% of Americans are OK with gay marriage, which is reflected in both moderate dem and progressive dem positions. From a polling standpoint, 70% of Americans are OK with some form of legal abortion, and this is reflected both in moderate and progressive dem positions. From a polling standpoint (and broad, deep scientific consensus), 60+% of Americans acknowledge that climate change secondary to human contribution is a big problem, and this is reflected both in moderate and progressive dem positions.

OTOH, pretty much the entire GOP is still against gay marriage. The GOP managed to elect politicians which led to an overturning of Roe, and has enacted total abortion bans in over a dozen states. And the GOP refuses to acknowledge that climate change is a real problem.

Maybe dems have moved left, but that's pretty much happened because the American people have moved left on many issues. The GOP has remained where they are +- moved much farther right. This is evidenced by the fact that the GOP has lost the popular vote in 7 out of the last 8 presidential elections

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Pretty much the entire GOP is still against gay marriage.

"A majority of Republicans support same-sex marriage"

A quick Google search could help with your misinformation before you post it.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Maybe dems have moved left, but that's pretty much happened because the American people have moved left on many issues

I think you overestimate the total numbers of "woke" people in favor of the far left agenda of total covid economic shutdown, open borders, no cash bail, and men competing against women as long as they wear a dress.

 

[rowsdower88]

I think you overestimate the total numbers of "woke" people in favor of the far left agenda of total covid economic shutdown, open borders, no cash bail, and men competing against women as long as they wear a dress.

I think you overestimate the number of Democrats who support those positions.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I think you overestimate the number of Democrats who support those positions.

I am counting on some of those Democrats to vote for Desantis in 2024.

 

[vector2]

"A majority of Republicans support same-sex marriage"

A quick Google search could help with your misinformation before you post it.

A quick google search would've let you know that only like 10 republican senators out of 50 supported the RFMA which included repeal of DOMA.

 

[vector2]

I am counting on some of those Democrats to vote for Desantis in 2024.

The only people who think Desantis is going to peel off a significant number of dems are the deluded republicans who pretend that MAGA Ron never existed. Everyone else remembers.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I am counting on some of those Democrats to vote for Desantis in 2024.

I wouldn't bet on that. I think it more likely that DeSantis gets moderates to vote Democrat.

 

[Southpaw]

I am counting on some of those Democrats to vote for Desantis in 2024.

I didn’t agree with most on his list but I’m as far away from voting for DeSantis as one can get.

 

[deleted1156722]

Isn’t it fair to state that the current progressive policies from Democrats is alienating many moderates/ independents?
( Let’s forget the personalities i.e Biden versus Trump and focus on the policies for now)

According to an Associated Press report, 2021-2022, more than 1 million voters in 43 states have left the Democratic Party and registered as GOP or Independent voters-especially in the suburbs, where swing voters can sway the election results.

Would you please take less than 5 minutes of your time to watch this youtube video by Dave Ruben, as it gives everyone some good points to ponder, and includes a memorable quote:

“Defending my liberal values has become a conservative position.”

 

[epidural man]

Isn’t it fair to state that the current progressive policies from Democrats is alienating many moderates/ independents?
( Let’s forget the personalities i.e Biden versus Trump and focus on the policies for now)

According to an Associated Press report, 2021-2022, more than 1 million voters in 43 states have left the Democratic Party and registered as GOP or Independent voters-especially in the suburbs, where swing voters can sway the election results.

Would you please take less than 5 minutes of your time to watch this youtube video by Dave Ruben, as it gives everyone some good points to ponder, and includes a memorable quote:

“Defending my liberal values has become a conservative position.”

Actually, my favorite quote was "Diversity reigns supreme, unless it is that pesky Diversity of thought."

So true.....

I enjoy spending time with my wife, more than I loathe watching "Below Deck" which is a stupid reality TV show about workers on super yachts.

Anyway, in this episode that was on yesterday, there was a Russian cook who made a statement about how in her country, gay is bad - and she said men shouldn't have sex with men. She made it very clear that this was a general feeling and she had no beef with any individual gay person. You got the feeling, that if you were gay in front of her, she would treat you just fine.

However, one of the workers was APPAULED at this idea and just went OFF on her, calling her names and wouldn't even talk to her after this. She tried to apologize and he wouldn't accept it or even entertain anything she had to say. I thought...wow, he wants everyone to be accepting of everyone, except when it is uncomfortable for him. IN otherwords, only accept those that he agrees with.

By the way, I think this feeling is mutually shared by most - that is, they can't stand someone who thinks different from them (right or left), but I do agree that is seems VERY PERVASIVE from those on the left....as yoga would say "The hate is strong in this one".

Just take a look at posts on this forum.

 

[vector2]

Isn’t it fair to state that the current progressive policies from Democrats is alienating many moderates/ independents?
( Let’s forget the personalities i.e Biden versus Trump and focus on the policies for now)

According to an Associated Press report, 2021-2022, more than 1 million voters in 43 states have left the Democratic Party and registered as GOP or Independent voters-especially in the suburbs, where swing voters can sway the election results.

Would you please take less than 5 minutes of your time to watch this youtube video by Dave Ruben, as it gives everyone some good points to ponder, and includes a memorable quote:

“Defending my liberal values has become a conservative position.”

No, I think it's fair to say that the perception from rightwing media fearmongering about all dems supposedly being 100% gung ho for critical race theory BLM antifa sharia Marxist trans woke policy is what has alienated some people from dems. That's not to say that dems or progressives aren't for some things which center leaning folks disagree with, but the Fox News / Tucker Carlson projection is 100x worse than the reality.

And as far as swing voters, remind us again what happened in the midterms? What happened to that redwave that was supposed to materialize?


I've seen that Rubin video. It's mostly biased misinformation like literally everything else on PragerU. It's got appeal to conservatives because they can point to one token (remote) former liberal as if that's some evidence that dems have a wider problem.

​

In October 2020, Rubin said he had "been a lifelong Democrat", but would be voting for a Republican president for the first time and endorsed Donald Trump for a second term in the 2020 United States Presidential Election. Rubin subsequently elaborated that while he didn't agree with everything Trump had done, he had changed his mind on the president and would vote for Trump on the basis of his opposition to the "woke left" and critical race theory in American institutions​

​

I think it's hard to read that paragraph and come to any conclusion other than Dave Rubin is an ethically "flexible" grifter.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

A quick google search would've let you know that only like 10 republican senators out of 50 supported the RFMA which included repeal of DOMA.

A quick Google search would let you know the entire GOP is made up of millions, not a handful 😉

 

[deleted1156722]

No, I think it's fair to say that the perception from rightwing media fearmongering about all dems supposedly being 100% gung ho for critical race theory BLM antifa sharia Marxist trans woke policy is what has alienated some people from dems. That's not to say that dems or progressives aren't for some things which center leaning folks disagree with, but the Fox News / Tucker Carlson projection is 100x worse than the reality.

And as far as swing voters, remind us again what happened in the midterms? What happened to that redwave that was supposed to materialize?


I've seen that Rubin video. It's mostly biased misinformation like literally everything else on PragerU. It's got appeal to conservatives because they can point to one token (remote) former liberal as if that's some evidence that dems have a wider problem.

​

In October 2020, Rubin said he had "been a lifelong Democrat", but would be voting for a Republican president for the first time and endorsed Donald Trump for a second term in the 2020 United States Presidential Election. Rubin subsequently elaborated that while he didn't agree with everything Trump had done, he had changed his mind on the president and would vote for Trump on the basis of his opposition to the "woke left" and critical race theory in American institutions​

​

I think it's hard to read that paragraph and come to any conclusion other than Dave Rubin is an ethically "flexible" grifter.

So you think it’s all perception and fear mongering from the Rightwing media that is causing so many moderates/independents to fear the dems and move rightward? So, there is no truth to any of these legitimate concerns voiced in Dave Ruben’s video?

Isn’t that attitude condescending towards many independents and moderates like myself who take pride in our understanding and knowledge of the politics and policies that is happening nationally and globally, and want to play our part in improving this world?

I could easily fit the description of a reasonably smart and well-rounded suburban voter, as I am well-travelled, highly educated from “elite” universities, love and cherish my beautiful family, value my faith, pay taxes on my hard-earned income, donate to multiple charities for a spectrum of causes, great neighbor and member of the community ( as I am told), and also happen to watch the gamut of media ranging from Fox News/ PBS/NPR and MSNBC.

So do liberals think that I am incapable of making my voting decision based on all available data and evidence and interactions, both in my personal and professional life, and that I would be easily swayed by the talking points from Tucker Carlson & Sean Hannity or Dave Ruben or even Elon Musk?

IMHO, the problem with Mid term 2022 - w/ the lack of Red wave-was the timely release of the Supreme Court verdict overturning Roe v Wade and giving it back to the states. Indeed, for many many Pro-choice voters, especially women voters, that was a complete negative, and GOP did end up shooting themselves in their foot. Honestly, I have no idea why GOP politicians who subscribe to “Govt out of the bedroom” are fighting for “Govt in the uterus”!

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I like a lot of what Desantis has done. I believed and have thought he will catch all the votes that Trump pushed away. Now I think he will push away as many as Trump has. If you watch MSM, they already recognize him as this threat and have been directing their coverage to frame him as the same as Trump or worse. Whatever. I just hope people make up their own minds and don't listen to media.

The other thing that gets said again and again is how the right parrots what Tucker Carlson and Fox News broadcasts. It is very bizarre to hear that aimed at yourself when you watch neither. It makes me realize that this is a way to dismiss arguments or viewpoints that certain people disagree with. It also makes those people's credibility take a tumble.

Finally, it is amusing the level of arrogance of those who think they get to decide whether others support gay marriage, etc. I think it is audacious to hear that 70% of GOP support gay marriage but someone else gets to decide if they do. Too funny. This whole movement of yelling misogynist, racist, transphobic, etc has created a laziness where a certain segment chooses not to genuinely engage, truly listen and have an honest discussions about differences of opinions.

 

[pgg]

@pgg
Can you comment on this tweet (or more specifically, on the idea conveyed)?

View attachment 368183

I think it's dumb, partisan hackery, grasping at a reason to criticize the Biden administration over one of the few things it has done exceptionally well - help Ukraine. (Credit there is also due to the Obama administration, which began the process of helping Ukraine westernize its military doctrine after Crimea was taken, and laid the foundation for their current successful resistance. And thankfully Trump didn't kill our training/advising efforts during his presidency, despite his hero-worship of Putin.)


First of all, it's laughable to think the Cold War state of affairs (a powerful, competent USSR with a mostly-insular China) was somehow more desirable than today's "risk" of a decrepit Russia becoming some kind of Chinese vassal state, as Putin's miscalculation sends his country toward economic ruin while sending an entire generation of young Russians into early graves in Ukraine. Whether Russia is a villain in its own right, or a sidekick to China's villainy, we're better off with a weaker Russia, however that's achieved.

Even before this invasion, Russia was weak - they had a economy the size of Italy. Italians think very highly of themselves, and I'll give them full credit for style, cuisine, and Ferraris, but they don't put on superpower airs or have any delusions of expeditionary warfare grandeur. What I'm getting at is that if Russia didn't have a bunch of nuclear weapons, they'd be an irrelevant and weak backwater. Everything's clear in retrospect, but it's hard to believe we were surprised that the Russian bully couldn't handle the first skinny kid that fought back.

And second, of course we should be opposing murderous autocratic regimes like Russia and China at every turn. It's the morally correct thing for the free world to do. If the only solace they can find is in each other's tender arms, good.

Third, if we can isolate and grind down one enemy to the point that it has no choice to seek the aid of another adversary ... that's still a clear win.


But the tweet and the functionally ******ed tweeter who excreted it are especially amusing to me because he starts off by acknowledging the the obvious truth that both Russia and China are, in fact, both adversaries in the first place! This is something that Trump and his cult, with all of their compliments for Putin, refused to even acknowledge. They never admitted Russian election interference was a problem, and their bizarre opposition to Ukraine's defense seems rooted in reflexive anti-Biden efforts. Even now those clowns would have you believe that Zelensky and Hunter Biden are bigger, more corrupt, more dangerous threats to western civilization than Putin's Russia.

 

[epidural man]

, and also happen to watch the gamut of media ranging from Fox News/ PBS/NPR and MSNBC.

This is a problem. I suggest stop. Watch Russel Brand, Breaking Points, read The Free Press (The Free Press) and occasionally check in on Matt Tiabbi.

That's not to say that dems or progressives aren't for some things which center leaning folks disagree with, but the Fox News / Tucker Carlson projection is 100x worse than the reality.

+1

 

[BobLoblaw78]

This is a problem. I suggest stop. Watch Russel Brand, Breaking Points, read The Free Press (The Free Press) and occasionally check in on Matt Tiabbi.

Brand went from a terrible actor that wasn't likeable to someone that you don't want to agree with but he just makes solid points. I truly want to dislike everything he says but often end up agreeing by the time he has finished talking. I apparently misjudged him.

I had only heard about Matt Tiabbi from twitter files. I would have guessed he was a hack the way he was skewered by the media.

 

[rowsdower88]

Watch Russel Brand,

often end up agreeing by the time he has finished talking

You guys microdosing ivermectin too?

 

[epidural man]

You guys microdosing ivermectin too?

He is just trying to do his best - to stay open, and have open conversations. Seems kinda cool to me. You don't think?

Russell Brand admits falsely claiming that ivermectin is a Covid-19 treatment - Full Fact

A page of the National Institutes of Health website says that ivermectin is not recommended, and does not work, as a treatment for Covid-19.

fullfact.org

 

[epidural man]

Brand went from a terrible actor that wasn't likeable to someone that you don't want to agree with but he just makes solid points. I truly want to dislike everything he says but often end up agreeing by the time he has finished talking. I apparently misjudged him.

I had only heard about Matt Tiabbi from twitter files. I would have guessed he was a hack the way he was skewered by the media.

Now that you know about him, you will see stuff from the past that includes him. He is an important journalist.

 

[vector2]

So you think it’s all perception and fear mongering from the Rightwing media that is causing so many moderates/independents to fear the dems and move rightward? So, there is no truth to any of these legitimate concerns voiced in Dave Ruben’s video?

Isn’t that attitude condescending towards many independents and moderates like myself who take pride in our understanding and knowledge of the politics and policies that is happening nationally and globally, and want to play our part in improving this world?

I could easily fit the description of a reasonably smart and well-rounded suburban voter, as I am well-travelled, highly educated from “elite” universities, love and cherish my beautiful family, value my faith, pay taxes on my hard-earned income, donate to multiple charities for a spectrum of causes, great neighbor and member of the community ( as I am told), and also happen to watch the gamut of media ranging from Fox News/ PBS/NPR and MSNBC.

So do liberals think that I am incapable of making my voting decision based on all available data and evidence and interactions, both in my personal and professional life, and that I would be easily swayed by the talking points from Tucker Carlson & Sean Hannity or Dave Ruben or even Elon Musk?

Given your description with your well-traveled and elitely educated pedigree, do you really consider yourself to be the *average* moderate or independent voter? Maybe it is condescending, but most people, left and right, are pretty dumb when it comes to politics (and a variety of other topics for that matter). And more specifically than "dumb," people are tribal. If one is right-leaning, one consumes mostly rightwing media. Same for left-leaning. I believe this statement is borne out in the polling.

A nice example of this is the question of voter fraud and stolen elections. Fox News very likely will have to pay out a massive settlement to Dominion soon. When Fox and other networks were in the midst of airing all this stolen election trash nonstop, what did the electorate think about the issue?

There were PLENTY of moderate conservatives who believed (and still believe) an outright fantastical lie. So yes, when multiple media sources change their coverage to essentially 24/7 "stop the woke CRT antifa trans groomers" headlines, I think it does sway perception. Maybe not of you, but certainly of large swaths of the electorate who exist inside their respective media bubble.

IMHO, the problem with Mid term 2022 - w/ the lack of Red wave-was the timely release of the Supreme Court verdict overturning Roe v Wade and giving it back to the states. Indeed, for many many Pro-choice voters, especially women voters, that was a complete negative, and GOP did end up shooting themselves in their foot. Honestly, I have no idea why GOP politicians who subscribe to “Govt out of the bedroom” are fighting for “Govt in the uterus”!

Prima facie evidence that in this decade Republicans have enacted very tangible national policy which shows they've moved very far to the right.

 

[vector2]

A quick Google search would let you know the entire GOP is made up of millions, not a handful 😉

Millions of people......who the vast majority of the time choose politicians who are overwhelmingly against gay marriage. Got it, chief.



Not to mention if a majority of the GOP did slip into the support column it was like 5 minutes ago, and just barely. A solid 45-49% are still enjoying their special brand of bigotry defense of marriage

 

[rowsdower88]

He is just trying to do his best - to stay open, and have open conversations. Seems kinda cool to me. You don't think?

Russell Brand admits falsely claiming that ivermectin is a Covid-19 treatment - Full Fact

A page of the National Institutes of Health website says that ivermectin is not recommended, and does not work, as a treatment for Covid-19.

fullfact.org

I disagree with covid takes he has had that I'm aware of. Good to see he walked the Ivermectin claim back.

Based on the very limited awareness I have of him, he seems like a knock-off Alan Watts. I listened to some of his interview with Jordan Peterson and I wanted to blow my brains out after the third time they brought up "masculine order" and "feminine chaos". (I was hoping he would be someone who actually challenged Peterson on his wackier claims.)

If you are getting something meaningful out of him, by all means.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

You guys microdosing ivermectin too?

So you don’t agree with not liking someone but listening and then finding that you can listen and agree with them? You make an exaggerated conclusion that you know has been corrected to paint someone negatively akin to straw man?

I think you prove yourself to be unreasonable and unwilling.

 

[FutureInternist]

Another “solution” in search of a problem..

Meanwhile this is EXACTLY how Republicans “manage” elections on predominantly minority and Democratic parts of their states (TX, GA, FL)

As always…the fewer people vote, the higher chance that they win

Senate Republicans hatch a new scheme to overturn Arizona's elections

Sen. Jake Hoffman has proposed a bill that would allow 1,000 Maricopa County voters overturn the will of 1.5 million voters. Sure, that makes sense.

www.yahoo.com

 

[rowsdower88]

So you don’t agree with not liking someone but listening and then finding that you can listen and agree with them? You make an exaggerated conclusion that you know has been corrected to paint someone negatively akin to straw man?

I think you prove yourself to be unreasonable and unwilling.

Sorry man, just poking the bear with that post. I should have included a sarcasm tag.

From what I know, he seems like a fine guy who dabbles in covid skepticism like Joe Rogan. A lot of weird opinions on spiritualism and "Transcendental Meditation", but those don't bother me anywhere near as much.

 

[Southpaw]

So you don’t agree with not liking someone but listening and then finding that you can listen and agree with them? You make an exaggerated conclusion that you know has been corrected to paint someone negatively akin to straw man?

I think you prove yourself to be unreasonable and unwilling.

Kudos to you and @epidural man for liking him. I’ve tried to listen. His style isn’t appealing to me. He screams nonstop. I can however listen to Ben Shapiro even though I disagree with a lot of what he says.

 

[rowsdower88]

Now that you know about him, you will see stuff from the past that includes him. He is an important journalist.

Skimming his youtube, he looks much more like a pundit than "an important journalist", with titles like "THEY LIED" and "CONFIRMED: they think you're stupid". It has the aesthetic of punditry at least. Journalism has ethics and requires fact checking, identifying sources, not intentionally distributing misinformation... Punditry is just reading the news and giving your opinion on it, which is what it SEEMS like his youtube channel is about.

But I will toss a Russel Brand olive branch: What is an article of his I should read?

Russell Brand | Collected Writings

Russell Brand is an award-winning comedian, actor, author, public thought leader, and a passionate activist for mental health and drug rehabilitation.

www.russellbrand.com

 

[DocMcCoy]

Millions of people......who the vast majority of the time choose politicians who are overwhelmingly against gay marriage. Got it, chief.



Not to mention if a majority of the GOP did slip into the support column it was like 5 minutes ago, and just barely. A solid 45-49% are still enjoying their special brand of bigotry defense of marriage

View attachment 368211

According to your graph, that holds true for post 9/11 democrats too. I mean, 2002 wasn’t that long ago when gay marriage had minority support from dems. And the slopes of both lines look similar for the past 10 years. So support has gained relatively equally in both parties 🤷‍♂️

 

[vector2]

According to your graph, that holds true for post 9/11 democrats too. I mean, 2002 wasn’t that long ago when gay marriage had minority support from dems. And the slopes of both lines look similar for the past 10 years. So support has gained relatively equally in both parties 🤷‍♂️

Yes, the Dems' and society's views on LGBTQ were both different over 20 years ago?

Salient point is that in 2023 liberals and many moderates fall in that "we broadly accept that" category which is when you're polling at 70-80%+ on an issue. I don't see why I would give points to a group of people who may get there in another 20 years considering Obergefell was 2015.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Yes, the Dems' and society's views on LGBTQ were both different over 20 years ago?

Salient point is that in 2023 liberals and many moderates fall in that "we broadly accept that" category which is when you're polling at 70-80%+ on an issue. I don't see why I would give points to a group of people who may get there in another 20 years considering Obergefell was 2015.

The only point is it is factually inaccurate to state “pretty much the entire GOP is against gay marriage. Just keepin ya honest.

And while you are consistent with your previous views on bipartisanship, which I applaud, the RFMA was again heralded by just about every news source as a BIPARTISAN piece of legislature whether it was left or right leaning.

Support for gay marriage has increased as fast or faster in the Republican Party over the past decade. That’s not nothin.

And Obergefell swayed a Republican too didn’t it?

And what’s up with the party of DEI with still nearly 1:5 of its own members not on the same page with gay marriage?

 

[vector2]

The only point is it is factually inaccurate to state “pretty much the entire GOP is against gay marriage. Just keepin ya honest.

And while you are consistent with your previous views on bipartisanship, which I applaud, the RFMA was again heralded by just about every news source as a BIPARTISAN piece of legislature whether it was left or right leaning.

Support for gay marriage has increased as fast or faster in the Republican Party over the past decade. That’s not nothin.

And Obergefell swayed a Republican too didn’t it?

And what’s up with the party of DEI with still nearly 1:5 of its own members not on the same page with gay marriage?

Yeah fair enough, the hyperbolic pretty much every line does not apply to individual GOP members. Just merely to members of Congress.

And I've already stated my opinion of the newspeak absurdity of the modern usage of "bipartisan" to mean that a bill simply passed by the bare minimum needed to beat a filibuster. It's nonsensical to say that same sex marriage enjoys any appreciable degree of bipartisan support in Congress when only ~20% of GOP senators and ~15% of GOP congressman voted for the RFMA.

No doubt, Republican support is increasing...but support amongst the populace has not translated into substantive support amongst GOP politicians. And that's the part that's relevant to the discussion I was having with the other poster, which pertained to whether actual shifts in party policy were occurring, and if so, whether that was moving voters toward or away from a particular party. If John Q Independent happens to be a single issue voter on LGBTQ or same sex marriage, I think from a national policy standpoint it's fair to say he would evaluate the current GOP as still pretty damn right.

As to "only" 80 some percent of democrats supporting same sex marriage, that's not unexpected and I'd still read it as overwhelming ubiquitous support. Polls are funny things in that you can never get to 0% or 100%. Never. Doesn't matter what the topic is. Ice cream bad? Hitler good? Moon landing faked? Earth is flat? You are going to get ~5-10% that agrees just out of trolling contrarianism or mental illness. And then throw in some Dems who object on religious grounds and voila, 80 some percent

 

[FutureInternist]

Given your description with your well-traveled and elitely educated pedigree, do you really consider yourself to be the *average* moderate or independent voter? Maybe it is condescending, but most people, left and right, are pretty dumb when it comes to politics (and a variety of other topics for that matter). And more specifically than "dumb," people are tribal. If one is right-leaning, one consumes mostly rightwing media. Same for left-leaning. I believe this statement is borne out in the polling.

A nice example of this is the question of voter fraud and stolen elections. Fox News very likely will have to pay out a massive settlement to Dominion soon. When Fox and other networks were in the midst of airing all this stolen election trash nonstop, what did the electorate think about the issue?

View attachment 368209

There were PLENTY of moderate conservatives who believed (and still believe) an outright fantastical lie. So yes, when multiple media sources change their coverage to essentially 24/7 "stop the woke CRT antifa trans groomers" headlines, I think it does sway perception. Maybe not of you, but certainly of large swaths of the electorate who exist inside their respective media bubble.



Prima facie evidence that in this decade Republicans have enacted very tangible national policy which shows they've moved very far to the right.

We do it cos it doesn’t say specifically that we can’t….

 

[epidural man]

Skimming his youtube, he looks much more like a pundit than "an important journalist", with titles like "THEY LIED" and "CONFIRMED: they think you're stupid". It has the aesthetic of punditry at least. Journalism has ethics and requires fact checking, identifying sources, not intentionally distributing misinformation... Punditry is just reading the news and giving your opinion on it, which is what it SEEMS like his youtube channel is about.

But I will toss a Russel Brand olive branch: What is an article of his I should read?

Russell Brand | Collected Writings

Russell Brand is an award-winning comedian, actor, author, public thought leader, and a passionate activist for mental health and drug rehabilitation.

www.russellbrand.com

Oh. Yeah…Russel isn’t at all a journalist. He just reads the news and makes me laugh.

I was referring to Matt Taibbi as a good and honest journalist.

 

[epidural man]

Yeah fair enough, the hyperbolic pretty much every line does not apply to individual GOP members. Just merely to members of Congress.

And I've already stated my opinion of the newspeak absurdity of the modern usage of "bipartisan" to mean that a bill simply passed by the bare minimum needed to beat a filibuster. It's nonsensical to say that same sex marriage enjoys any appreciable degree of bipartisan support in Congress when only ~20% of GOP senators and ~15% of GOP congressman voted for the RFMA.

No doubt, Republican support is increasing...but support amongst the populace has not translated into substantive support amongst GOP politicians. And that's the part that's relevant to the discussion I was having with the other poster, which pertained to whether actual shifts in party policy were occurring, and if so, whether that was moving voters toward or away from a particular party. If John Q Independent happens to be a single issue voter on LGBTQ or same sex marriage, I think from a national policy standpoint it's fair to say he would evaluate the current GOP as still pretty damn right.

As to "only" 80 some percent of democrats supporting same sex marriage, that's not unexpected and I'd still read it as overwhelming ubiquitous support. Polls are funny things in that you can never get to 0% or 100%. Never. Doesn't matter what the topic is. Ice cream bad? Hitler good? Moon landing faked? Earth is flat? You are going to get ~5-10% that agrees just out of trolling contrarianism or mental illness. And then throw in some Dems who object on religious grounds and voila, 80 some percent

Vector2,

You really are a smart, well read and clever person, often with really interesting things to say.

Have you considered trying to be less partisan?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Let’s rewrite history:

Race left out of Rosa Parks story in revised weekly lesson text for Florida schools highlights confusion with Florida law — CNN

Studies Weekly, a publisher that provides educational periodicals for Florida's K-6 grades, revised one of their lesson plans for the 2022-2023 school year to take out race as the reason Rosa Parks was told to change her bus seat and why she was subsequently arrested.

apple.news

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2023-03-20/national-teachers-union-presidents-slam-desantis-in-a-preview-of-2024-education-politics

Next on the agenda: The Civil War only happened because the south made better pancakes. Stay un-woke Florida!

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Let’s rewrite history:

Race left out of Rosa Parks story in revised weekly lesson text for Florida schools highlights confusion with Florida law — CNN

Studies Weekly, a publisher that provides educational periodicals for Florida's K-6 grades, revised one of their lesson plans for the 2022-2023 school year to take out race as the reason Rosa Parks was told to change her bus seat and why she was subsequently arrested.

apple.news

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2023-03-20/national-teachers-union-presidents-slam-desantis-in-a-preview-of-2024-education-politics

Next on the agenda: The Civil War only happened because the south made better pancakes. Stay un-woke Florida!

So it was an overreaction mistake by an individual that was corrected and fixed. And you want to blame the entire state as if they intentionally think that way. Moving along, nothing to see here.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Journalism has ethics and requires fact checking, identifying sources, not intentionally distributing misinformation...

Well I'd say you just took out the entire mainstream media in one sentence 😂

 

[RadOncDoc21]

So it was an overreaction mistake by an individual that was corrected and fixed. And you want to blame the entire state as if they intentionally think that way. Moving along, nothing to see here.

No, just the GOP and their supporters. Yes, move along… nothing wrong with miseducation. But then again, I’m not surprised, there’s a reason why the proud boy’s, neo-Nazis and KKK members are drawn into your party.

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article266573856.html

 

[vector2]

Vector2,

You really are a smart, well read and clever person, often with really interesting things to say.

Have you considered trying to be less partisan?

Bruh, 2018 was the first time I ever voted in my life. I started following politics regularly about 10-12 years before that, and even though I always leaned liberal I just didn't care that much to put it into practice. Because, barring a few outliers, things were generally status quo no matter who was in power.

So start with that perspective, and then imagine how bad I had to think trump and the GOP were to get off my ass, start voting, and start strongly advocating for the alternative.

I would love to be less partisan. Just as soon as the conservative part of this country stops losing its mind and thoroughly rids itself of everything trump and maga related.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Bruh, 2018 was the first time I ever voted in my life. I started following politics regularly about 10-12 years before that, and even though I always leaned liberal I just didn't care that much to put it into practice. Because, barring a few outliers, things were generally status quo no matter who was in power.

So start with that perspective, and then imagine how bad I had to think trump and the GOP were to get off my ass, start voting, and start strongly advocating for the alternative.

I would love to be less partisan. Just as soon as the conservative part of this country stops losing its mind and thoroughly rids itself of everything trump and maga related.

View attachment 368235
View attachment 368234

Same here, I voted 3 times… two times only to go against one person (clue- he’s orange).

 

[Arch Guillotti]

This thread has run it’s course. Too many complaints from all sides.