I never understood the loss of empathy during medical training. Until now.

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I don't think this at all, trads will probably do fine 3rd year, trads just seem to be immature little ultra gunners who have always got their way and had things mostly handed to them on a silver platter. There is a certain immaturity tied to someone who has never had to deal with the real world outside of the ivory tower protection of higher education.
But the system as far as entering medical education caters to that. Once you hop into the medicine pipeline it's a straight shot of training: med school --> residency --> fellowship. If you don't like that pathway, there is the NP or PA pathway as well, esp. if debt burden is such a huge concern to you that you think it may impair your education performance.

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I tend to agree with EMDO on non-trads being easier to get along with. None of them have shoved the "I HAVE LIFE EXPERIENCE" down my throat, and they seem to be less gunnerish
To be fair, they also tend to be married, have children, and studies have shown tend to go for more primary care specialties (due to not wanting to prolong training even further due to being older).
 
I don't think this at all, trads will probably do fine 3rd year, trads just seem to be immature little ultra gunners who have always got their way and had things mostly handed to them on a silver platter. There is a certain immaturity tied to someone who has never had to deal with the real world outside of the ivory tower protection of higher education.

You'll be surprised. Some non-trads, especially those who came from an allied health field (nursing, EMS, techs of various sorts), generally think they have things figured out. Some of them are downright unteachable or do stupid crap like pimp fellow med students in front of attendings (despite knowing jack ****) or try to do stuff solo without telling their residents/attendings. They are generally less gunnerish (as stated above), but are irritating in their own unique way. Being aloof and acting like the clinical years are just a formality is just as bad as acting like the clinical years are Thunderdome.
 
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To be fair, they also tend to be married, have children, and studies have shown tend to go for more primary care specialties (due to not wanting to prolong training even further due to being older).
Makes sense. Perhaps I'm biased because I fall into that definition of non-trad. However, I've never had a career of any kind but those that I've spoken to that have don't act like it makes them any better than the 22 year olds in my class.
 
Yeah the "I use to be a Nurse" non trads are a little unbearable, I'm wasn't saying all trads are bad either. A lot of them are really mature for 22 year olds.
 
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THE WHOLE LOSS OF EMPATHY THING MAY JUST BE A NATURAL TRANSITION THAT HAPPENS AS YOU AGE FROM YOUR EARLY 20'S TO YOUR LATE 20'S, REGARLESS IF YOU ARE IN MED SCHOOL.
As a person who's very, very close to being 30 and has a lot of friends my own age, I assure you, that isn't the case.
 
As a person who's very, very close to being 30 and has a lot of friends my own age, I assure you, that isn't the case.
I was going to say when he said "natural transition" for everyone in their 20s, I was like ummm....yeah, that must be why the suicide rate is the same in medicine and outside of medicine, oh wait it's not.
 
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Yeah the "I use to be a Nurse" non trads are a little unbearable, I'm wasn't saying all trads are bad either. A lot of them are really mature for 22 year olds.
At least they're taking the real way to medicine as opposed to the NP escape hatch
 
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I was going to say when he said "natural transition" for everyone in their 20s, I was like ummm....yeah, that must be why the suicide rate is the same in medicine and outside of medicine, oh wait it's not.


Higher suicide rate probably has more to do with the type of person that chooses medicine in the first place ( type a perfectionist) , than the profession itself.
 
You'll be surprised. Some non-trads, especially those who came from an allied health field (nursing, EMS, techs of various sorts), generally think they have things figured out. Some of them are downright unteachable or do stupid crap like pimp fellow med students in front of attendings (despite knowing jack ****) or try to do stuff solo without telling their residents/attendings. They are generally less gunnerish (as stated above), but are irritating in their own unique way. Being aloof and acting like the clinical years are just a formality is just as bad as acting like the clinical years are Thunderdome.
A HUGE part of MS-3, is being on the bottom of the totem pole and not lashing out. For some reason, people in nursing, EMS, etc. who go into medicine as a 2nd career have difficulty with this and refuse to take part in the hierarchy, esp. if the intern/resident is young enough to be their son/daughter or doing things they consider below them. I just think it's just easier to fit in and take orders as a 24 yr. old traditional with no family responsibilities than a 35 year old who has worked and risen up the ladder.
 
Higher suicide rate probably has more to do with the type of person that chooses medicine in the first place ( type a perfectionist) , than the profession itself.
Wrong. The chances of a male physician dying of suicide are 70% higher than men in the general population and between 250% and 400% higher for female physicians than women in the general population. Not everyone who enters medical school is a Type A personality. You don't see these type of figures in Dentistry for example which also have Type A personalities.
 
Yeah the "I use to be a Nurse" non trads are a little unbearable, I'm wasn't saying all trads are bad either. A lot of them are really mature for 22 year olds.
I haven't had a bad run in with one. They're alright. What you need to understand is a lot of the "when I was a nurse" stuff they do isn't to show off, they just talk about it because they miss practicing clinically and everything looks rosy in hindsight. It's kind of like a vet sharing war stories- most of them aren't trying to show off, they just want to talk about the moments that were so important in their lives, even if those moments were hell at the time.

I wasn't a nurse, but giving up my badge and becoming a student was actually really painful- I was proud of my career, and I miss the times I had and the people that were there by my side. I don't want to let those memories fade and die, so when something comes up that reminds me of a good story, I just kind of tell it to remind myself of those days and serve as a personal reminder of where I've come from.
 
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Wrong. The chances of a male physician dying of suicide are 70% higher than men in the general population and between 250% and 400% higher for female physicians than women in the general population. Not everyone who enters medical school is a Type A personality. You don't see these type of figures in Dentistry for example which also have Type A personalities.
Isn't dentistry up there as well?
 
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I haven't had a bad run in with one. They're alright. What you need to understand is a lot of the "when I was a nurse" stuff they do isn't to show off, they just talk about it because they miss practicing clinically and everything looks rosy in hindsight. It's kind of like a vet sharing war stories- most of them aren't trying to show off, they just want to talk about the moments that were so important in their lives, even if those moments were hell at the time.

I wasn't a nurse, but giving up my badge and becoming a student was actually really painful- I was proud of my career, and I miss the times I had and the people that were there by my side. I don't want to let those memories fade and die, so when something comes up that reminds me of a good story, I just kind of tell it to remind myself of those days and serve as a personal reminder of where I've come from.
At times I feel like the only one who didn't have a healthcare related job before school. I waited tables all through college and was damned proud of it!!!
 
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Wrong. The chances of a male physician dying of suicide are 70% higher than men in the general population and between 250% and 400% higher for female physicians than women in the general population. Not everyone who enters medical school is a Type A personality. You don't see these type of figures in Dentistry for example which also have Type A personalities.
The rate of attempted suicide is actually very similar if I remember correctly. We're just better at doing it successfully because we know what we're doing.
 
At times I feel like the only one who didn't have a healthcare related job before school. I waited tables all through college and was damned proud of it!!!
The second most impactful job I ever had in my life was retail sales. I did that for a good five years, which was as long as I spent working in the hospital. I've actually thought about getting a part time position at Best Buy because I sort of miss it some days.

So far as students with legit clinical experience, I'd say it's about a third of my class. The majority are noobs.
 
The second most impactful job I ever had in my life was retail sales. I did that for a good five years, which was as long as I spent working in the hospital. I've actually thought about getting a part time position at Best Buy because I sort of miss it some days.

So far as students with legit clinical experience, I'd say it's about a third of my class. The majority are noobs.
I took a CNA course but never worked as one. Today in one lab we covered the extent of what I remember from that: how to take vitals
 
The second most impactful job I ever had in my life was retail sales. I did that for a good five years, which was as long as I spent working in the hospital. I've actually thought about getting a part time position at Best Buy because I sort of miss it some days.

So far as students with legit clinical experience, I'd say it's about a third of my class. The majority are noobs.
I think that helps in dealing with difficult and/or annoying patients which in an academic medical center there will be plenty.
 
Hard to take seriously a source that has the categories of "Dream Interpretation: Teeth Falling Out" and "Koi Fish Tattoo Meaning".
Lol I prefaced it as such

Edit: Plus it has pictures of people with stethoscopes on the page, it has to be legit... right?
 
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I think that helps in dealing with difficult and/or annoying patients which in an academic medical center there will be plenty.
Yeah, it made my job a lot easier. It's also why I interview fairly well- years of working sales really helps develop your professional interpersonal communication skills. So I definitely got a lot out of it.
 
when you guys talk about students pimping other students, if you and a buddy are just quizzing each other, is that still considered pimping if you do it m3, or does there need to be like one person thinking they're above the other(which they are in the case of a doctor asking a student a question)
 
...She sounds like an extremely sheltered and naive girl who thought of medicine as some sort of cinderella fairy tale happy ending. Almost as if med school was supposed to conform to her life and expectations not the other way around. You have to work long hours in med school?!? Studying isn't always fun and interesting?!? I can't spend every weekend with family and friends?!? Residents will correct my mistakes and criticize my work?!? I can't spend an hour connecting with every patient and learning their life story?!?
...
Its easy to have "empathy" when your whole worldview is filled with unrealistic expectations of med school, residency, and practice.

Then you come to find out that you're not the smartest person in the room anymore, you have to work hard to pass classes. You have to sacrifice time with family and friends. You have to give up some of the things you loved doing before med school. You have to spend long hours in the hospital including weekends and holidays doing a mostly thankless job. You have to accept the fact that you don't solve most of your patients' problems. But most of all, you have to learn the hard way that you don't make a difference in most people's lives.

Welcome to the real world.

So oddly enough, I kind of see this. A lot of people go into medicine without a good idea of what its like. Its not rainbows and puppy dogs, healing everyone you touch and always knowing the answer. The way some people talk, you'd think they 100% believe that's what being a physician is like.

I do think that some empathy is lost. There's a hardening, an increase in cynicism, and a loss of patience that occurs in medical school. Even in pre-clinical, you start to feel the latter. There's so much to cover, and you get used to skimming or filtering out the junk for what's really important. You expect the world around you to be like that, but it isn't, and if you act like that it just comes off as a coldness rather than focus.

I don't agree that medicine is just a job though. You can get a job anywhere. I truly believe that there is something that can be said about being there for people during something as frightening as an illness, even if its only 2-5% of the real work you do. I see docs that are there for others in ways that I doubt they even understand. They aren't doing it for the money, because who would put up with all that?

That said, some docs actually are punks, and not just robots. I'm hoping my revulsion of the idea of being a punk, my at least cursory idea of what being a doctor is really like, and my constantly questioning wife that makes self evaluation a pre-requisite for almost every action will all prevent me from becoming the soulless, bitter doc that I've seen too many of my friends become.

While I think having life experience helps in a way with relating with patients and maybe noticing social nuances, I think what annoys traditional premeds in med school, is that non-trads air a moral superiority that all of the trads gunning during preclinical years will get our comeuppance in MS-3, when red carpets will be rolled out for the nontrads due to their impeccable ability to work in teams, problem solve, etc. as stated by Shjanzey. It truly overstates the role of the MS-3, when fitting the hierarchy is imperative and to which non-trads have difficulty doing bc they don't like taking orders from someone younger than they are. It's quite hilarious, if not sad.

I don't know, maybe its because I didn't work directly in medicine, but in a science field as well as another field completely unrelated to medicine, but I have no problem with the idea of the bolded. Maybe because I automatically assume that the med student above me, let alone the resident, knows more when it comes to treating/dealing with patients than me. Who cares how old they are if they're further along in the process than me?

I tend to agree with EMDO on non-trads being easier to get along with. None of them have shoved the "I HAVE LIFE EXPERIENCE" down my throat, and they seem to be less gunnerish

I've met a couple, but they tend to be the ones that worked as mid-levels. Even amongst those people though, there's the subset that actually knows how things are, but doesn't feel the need to "show" they know it, and then there's the people that think they know how things are, and go out of their way to "demonstrate" knowledge that they obviously don't have.

You'll be surprised. Some non-trads, especially those who came from an allied health field (nursing, EMS, techs of various sorts), generally think they have things figured out. Some of them are downright unteachable or do stupid crap like pimp fellow med students in front of attendings (despite knowing jack ****) or try to do stuff solo without telling their residents/attendings. They are generally less gunnerish (as stated above), but are irritating in their own unique way. Being aloof and acting like the clinical years are just a formality is just as bad as acting like the clinical years are Thunderdome.

"TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!"
 
how much of it is just sheer idealism though that is lost, I think that's something that isn't being talked about.
 
how much of it is just sheer idealism though that is lost, I think that's something that isn't being talked about.

I imagine its a combination of both. There actually is an aspect of empathy and patience that is lost. I also think there is an aspect of idealism lost, but its not enough to say that its primary idealism. You expect some idealism to be lost when you mature. You don't necessarily meet the expectations you set for yourself (or you do and they don't make you happy the way you expected), you see the cyclic nature of the world and how people on a macroscopic scale don't particularly change, but at the same time you don't lose the ability to relate to others that happens to so many in medicine.

Something happens during medical school/residency that creates this, and it very well might be self-perpetuating (e.g. the attendings and residents that are dead inside make MS3s/MS4s that are dead inside). Maybe its the demeaning acts & criticisms, the lack of sleep, who knows...
 
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how much of it is just sheer idealism though that is lost, I think that's something that isn't being talked about.
I think that's hard to quantify esp. at the typical age people enter medicine. That being said I think part of why Medicine is popular is the wanting to make a difference in people's lives. If you don't have that, there are very few specialties in which one can be happy.
 
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when you guys talk about students pimping other students, if you and a buddy are just quizzing each other, is that still considered pimping if you do it m3, or does there need to be like one person thinking they're above the other(which they are in the case of a doctor asking a student a question)
It's only gunning if you do it in front of a resident or attending who has a say in your evaluation.
 
Something happens during medical school/residency that creates this, and it very well might be self-perpetuating (e.g. the attendings and residents that are dead inside make MS3s/MS4s that are dead inside). Maybe its the demeaning acts & criticisms, the lack of sleep, who knows...
Likely a combination: compounding debt, never ending years of training, lack of sleep, constant moving, patients unsatisfied or belligerent, malpractice woes, etc. It can be quite a topsy-turvy nightmare. And at the worst endpoint, ends up in suicide.
 
We could do what most of the rest of the world does and make residency and medical school a significantly longer but less grueling process. In many countries, medical school is 6 years and you are a junior doctor for 5-7 years, but you start right out of high school, so you end up finishing right around the same time as an American grad. Not going through the stress of the premedical process, having a prolonged curriculum, cutting out a lot of the BS we don't actually need in clinical practice, and making residency take longer in terms of years, but with significantly reduced weekly hours- I think these things could add up to making things a lot more bearable. They'll never happen, obviously, but I think a lot of the suck does come from packing so much learning into such a short period of time. That and the way the process basically selects for people that are willing to jump through hoops well and breaks anyone who does otherwise.

I have friends in Europe who are physicians and the big downside is that a lot of the decision making process on IF and WHEN you can/will become a doctor happens much earlier than it does in the US. You have to make the cut early or you are out.

As a non-traditional (for what that is worth) I wouldn't have had a chance at medicine even if I had grown up in Europe.

I'm not one for flag-waving, but we do have that going for us.
 
when you guys talk about students pimping other students, if you and a buddy are just quizzing each other, is that still considered pimping if you do it m3, or does there need to be like one person thinking they're above the other(which they are in the case of a doctor asking a student a question)
No, we're referring to doing it in front of a resident/attending as a way to put the person on the spot.
 
I have friends in Europe who are physicians and the big downside is that a lot of the decision making process on IF and WHEN you can/will become a doctor happens much earlier than it does in the US. You have to make the cut early or you are out.

As a non-traditional (for what that is worth) I wouldn't have had a chance at medicine even if I had grown up in Europe.

I'm not one for flag-waving, but we do have that going for us.
Yes, but their entire education system is built like that and not just for medicine.
 
That's one thing if you're practicing as an attending. Depending on the specialty, it's a job with a lot more responsibility, call, # of hours worked, people dying on you left and right, etc. Your solution is for med students and premeds to just look at the paycheck?
It's a freaking job! That is all is it. If people think they gonna cure the world, power to them... It will be a job for me. I will NOT be a martyr to medicine.
 
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It's a freaking job! That is all is it. If people think they gonna cure the world, power to them... It will be a job for me. I will NOT be a martyr to medicine.
I'm not talking about curing the world. If medicine is "just a job" and you're not a people type person, life will be quite miserable, with hospital admins and patients breathing down your neck.
 
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It's a freaking job! That is all is it. If people think they gonna cure the world, power to them... It will be a job for me. I will NOT be a martyr to medicine.

I don't think you have to be a "martyr to medicine" for it to be more than a job.

I don't know if people's expectations are just too high or what, but I just want to help people on at least a somewhat "regular" basis. That could be something simple like acknowledging their pain, diagnosing them (even if its a bread & butter case that anyone could have spotted), or whatever. They (physicians and patients) may not even understand, recognize, or acknowledge it, but doctors have a crazy impact on patient's lives. That's from the PCP to the pathologist.

Maybe that sounds a bit idealistic for this thread, but the docs I know that I want to be like definitely treat medicine as more than a job, while still having time for their family/outside life.

And also, to be clear there are other "jobs" out there that impact people's lives and help people, but I wouldn't call those just jobs either.
 
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I'm not talking about curing the world. If medicine is "just a job" and you're not a people type person, life will be quite miserable, with hospital admins and patients breathing down your neck.

I'd argue that doing your job successfully would entail having successful interactions with admins and patients. I don't understand the sentiment that someone either has to a) think it's just a job and automatically won't enjoy anything besides path or rads or b) devote their lives to medicine and helping other people

I mean by definition helping other people would be the #1 way to be a better doctor, so if someone was just concerned about their job, it would be in their best interest to help people. That doesn't mean they feel required to, it's a conscious choice that is an aspect of their profession
 
@DermViser ... Maybe I am not a people person. I don't know man... Anyway, I am not a person who think a job should play a big part in me being 'happy'. I understand it's a big part for most Americans. Though I must confess it was a strange 'concept' to me when I moved here...
 
@DermViser ... Maybe I am not a people person. I don't know man... Anyway, I am not a person who think a job should play a big part in me being 'happy'. I understand it's a big part for most Americans. Though I must confess it was a strange 'concept' to me when I moved here...
The problem is unlike many other fields medicine will play a huge role in your life and take up a lot of it. This isn't a fast food joint where you clock in and clock out.
 
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@DermViser ... Maybe I am not a people person. I don't know man... Anyway, I am not a person who think a job should play a big part in me being 'happy'. I understand it's a big part for most Americans. Though I must confess it was a strange 'concept' to me when I moved here...

I think its easier to separate a job and your life in some jobs, but medicine itself requires way more than most. 4 yrs of med school, 3-7 yrs of residency, during which you'll be working more than most for less. Its a difficult pill to swallow if you don't enjoy the work.

Maybe I'm lazy, but if I didn't feel any enjoyment in the profession, I don't think I'd be able to justify going through 1 yr of med school, let alone 4.
 
I don't think you have to be a "martyr to medicine" for it to be more than a job.

I don't know if people's expectations are just too high or what, but I just want to help people on at least a somewhat "regular" basis. That could be something simple like acknowledging their pain, diagnosing them (even if its a bread & butter case that anyone could have spotted), or whatever. They (physicians and patients) may not even understand, recognize, or acknowledge it, but doctors have a crazy impact on patient's lives. That's from the PCP to the pathologist.

Maybe that sounds a bit idealistic for this thread, but the docs I know that I want to be like definitely treat medicine as more than a job, while still having time for their family/outside life.

And also, to be clear there are other "jobs" out there that impact people's lives and help people, but I wouldn't call those just jobs either.
My point was that @DermViser is advancing that notion that many will be disappointed as physicians. I don't think people are that naive... I don't see why medicine should be different from any other job except you are dealing with lives... Any job one has, you will have administration breathing down your neck... This not unique to medicine. You just have to do your job to the best of your ability. I was a dishwasher and I had people breathing down my neck....
 
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My point was that @DermViser is advancing that notion that many will be disappointed as physicians. I don't think people that naive... I don't see why medicine should be different from any other job except you are dealing with lives... Any job one has, you will have administration breathing down your neck... This not unique to medicine. You just have to do your job to the best of your ability. I was a dishwasher and I had people breathing down my neck....

That's a pretty big exception though :p

I guess whether or not you're disappointed depends on your expectations.
 
I'm not reading the whole thread. And I don't know if this has been said.

What seems like a "loss of empathy" is I think merely the product of a process of maturing your emotions to deal with the job. While some folks never make it back from total lack and cynicism, I think the empathy comes back once you're done with training. You understand it's place better and your own emotions in the middle of the context of the whole patient care. At least this has been my experience. I care what happens to my patients, but I know it's not the be all, end all, and patients also need me to be a doctor not an empath, even if the two need to appropriately overlap somewhere. It's nuanced, but you all will just have to see what happens on the other side.
 
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The problem is unlike many other fields medicine will play a huge role in your life and take up a lot of it. This isn't a fast food joint where you clock in and clock out.
I don't know maybe these physicians that I used to work with were faking it... These guys worked 40hrs/wk at a County Department of Health. Weekends/Holidays off etc... I used to get acquainted with them and I thought they were having the time of their lives.
 
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The problem is unlike many other fields medicine will play a huge role in your life and take up a lot of it. This isn't a fast food joint where you clock in and clock out.
It will just be a job for me! period.
 
I'm not reading the whole thread. And I don't know if this has been said.

What seems like a "loss of empathy" is I think merely the product of a process of maturing your emotions to deal with the job. While some folks never make it back from total lack and cynicism, I think the empathy comes back once you're done with training. You understand it's place better and your own emotions in the middle of the context of the whole patient care. At least this has been my experience. I care what happens to my patients, but I know it's not the be all, end all, and patients also need me to be a doctor not an empath, even if the two need to appropriately overlap somewhere. It's nuanced, but you all will just have to see what happens on the other side.

I hope this is the case with most doctors.

I would prefer not to at any point to be completely cynical or have a complete lack of empathy, but I have friends that were empathic and well adjusted before med school, and simply aren't now. They're not out of residency yet though, so maybe things will change in 1-2 yrs.
 
My point was that @DermViser is advancing that notion that many will be disappointed as physicians. I don't think people that naive... I don't see why medicine should be different from any other job except you are dealing with lives... Any job one has, you will have administration breathing down your neck... This not unique to medicine. You just have to do your job to the best of your ability. I was a dishwasher and I had people breathing down my neck....
Yeah, just life or death, that's all.
 
I hope this is the case with most doctors.

I would prefer not to at any point to be completely cynical or have a complete lack of empathy, but I have friends that were empathic and well adjusted before med school, and simply aren't now. They're not out of residency yet though, so maybe things will change in 1-2 yrs.

Fight or flight man. Training doesn't exactly bring out the best in us very often. It's hard to give af when you're just tyring to survive.
 
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You have to look out for yourself first, when you've made it to a comfortable place then you can start giving a damn about other people. This is the way evolution has programmed us, is this what you're saying if so I agree.


I'm not reading the whole thread. And I don't know if this has been said.

What seems like a "loss of empathy" is I think merely the product of a process of maturing your emotions to deal with the job. While some folks never make it back from total lack and cynicism, I think the empathy comes back once you're done with training. You understand it's place better and your own emotions in the middle of the context of the whole patient care. At least this has been my experience. I care what happens to my patients, but I know it's not the be all, end all, and patients also need me to be a doctor not an empath, even if the two need to appropriately overlap somewhere. It's nuanced, but you all will just have to see what happens on the other side.
 
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