I never understood the loss of empathy during medical training. Until now.

[NickNaylor]

**** bitches, get MD. Ur doing it wrong.



Jk, go on and get you some.

Now I ain't sayin she a gold digga

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[Kaustikos]

Now I ain't sayin she a gold digga

Well, I got 99 problems and a bitch ain't one.

 

[DermViser]

I was on my way back from the hospital today with a classmate of mine when some ladies in a car stopped by us and asked for directions somewhere. We get to talking while my buddy looks up directions to wherever they're going, and we tell them that we're med students up here for a rotation but that we don't actually live here (thus the need to look up directions). One of them then says that she has a couple of nieces if we're interested.

That makes it all worth it, right?

Right?

Yes, yes it does. The more important thing is - did they show you pictures?

 

[SkipJunior]

Yes, yes it does. The more important thing is - did they show you pictures?

how awesome is that! I bet it's so easy to get girlfriends once girls know you are a doctor and you have lots of moolah!

 

[username456789]

how awesome is that! I bet it's so easy to get girlfriends once girls know you are a doctor and you have lots of moolah!

Just ask Arkangeloid!

 

[Cytarabine]

I was on my way back from the hospital today with a classmate of mine when some ladies in a car stopped by us and asked for directions somewhere. We get to talking while my buddy looks up directions to wherever they're going, and we tell them that we're med students up here for a rotation but that we don't actually live here (thus the need to look up directions). One of them then says that she has a couple of nieces if we're interested.

That makes it all worth it, right?

Right?

"Why? We've got all the woman we could ever need right here in front of us." Proceed to drown in gilf love

 

[PL198]

Just that I've never given a woman's body fat percentage and it's possible implications on her reproductive capability a conscious thought...

There's no difference between consciously thinking something and unconsciously doing so, which I'd bet my life you have.

 

[DermViser]

Just ask Arkangeloid!

The moment they hand your degree at graduation, they have you show off your hammin...sorry, I mean, going ham on bishes skills to the audience.

 

[Roxas]

The moment they hand your degree at graduation, they have you show off your hammin...sorry, I mean, going ham on bishes skills to the audience.

That sounds graphic. Are the first 3 rows considered a "splash zone" or something?

 

[DermViser]

That sounds graphic. Are the first 3 rows considered a "splash zone" or something?

I guess it depends on how big the "bish" is.

 

[PL198]

The moment they hand your degree at graduation, they have you show off your hammin...sorry, I mean, going ham on bishes skills to the audience.

ugh have you still not understood the ham hammin thing by now

 

[DermViser]

ugh have you still not understood the ham hammin thing by now

The only hams I know are 1) the expression of someone being a ham, 2) the deli meat and 3) ham radios.

 

[Silent Cool]

Well, I got 99 problems and a bitch ain't one.

That's because you don't know how to ham, obviously.

 

[Silent Cool]

For those who are still puzzled by the vaguaries of the word ham, I consulted Urban Dictionary to shed some clarity:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ham

Primary Definition:

Acronym for Hard As a Motherfu@#r

That dude be straight goin' HAM on dem fools.
Holla, I'm about to go get HAM on these boys.

Alternate Definition:

Cured pig meat.

 

[PL198]

The only hams I know are 1) the expression of someone being a ham, 2) the deli meat and 3) ham radios.

ham radio? sounds inhumane

 

[Siggy]

And some people get inflated egos as a result of their specilaty. For example, I was reading about this Pediatric CT surgeon who said he fixes what G-d can't. What a ridiculous and arrogant thing to say. If that guy was in family medicine would he say that? Certainly not. I just think its ridiculous how people think they own the world because they are one specialty or another. Obviously, that guy was a bad apple, and there are some people who are the antithesis, but come on.

 

[Silent Cool]

ham radio? sounds inhumane

Do you mean inHamane?

 

[altitudinarian]

I'm just curious. Are you interested in the girls who do Crossfit because they do Crossfit, or because they are fit? Or both?

Also, what if a girl can't help having a six-pack? I know a couple who don't even try and it just shows up, and they're still in a healthy body fat percentage.

 

[DermViser]

I'm just curious. Are you interested in the girls who do Crossfit because they do Crossfit, or because they are fit? Or both?

Also, what if a girl can't help having a six-pack? I know a couple who don't even try and it just shows up, and they're still in a healthy body fat percentage.

Bc they are fit. Not to mention, I think it's attractive also that a woman takes the time and effort to improve her health and shape.

 

[altitudinarian]

Bc they are fit. Not to mention, I think it's attractive also that a woman takes the time and effort to improve her health and shape.

I understand that. It's interesting you say this, because there seems to be, whenever I'm out and about with people, these weird dynamics going on when it comes to fitness and appearance. As in, some women bash other women for being fit, doing weights, etc., even if they are fit themselves. Some women who are not so fit think women who lift/do intense exercises are "bodybuilders" and hulks. Men, depends, but it must be the ones I talk to, but rarely do they ask for specifics. They just want a woman with boobs, sometimes a butt. Whether they're working out or not does not contribute to their "attractiveness."

But this is just my experience.

 

[Cytarabine]

Weight work is great for women. If you don't want to get bulky, just don't eat at a surplus. It's not like muscle comes on easily. Also, there's a difference between a "6 pack" that's just visible and ripped ass abs - you see striations and whatnot on the latter, and very few people are going to achieve that unless it's what they really want

 

[Megalomis]

I thought so too. I know study after study in the literature has confirmed a loss of empathy in medical students across 4 years, but I think his detailed story kind of puts a human perspective as to why exactly this is. I've wondered if it's something medical schools themselves are actively doing which promote this loss of empathy, whether it's the so-called "hidden curriculum" at work, or whether it's just something inherent to medical school that will be there regardless of what schools do.

There are medical schools that have tried to change things - whether it's P/F grading in the first 2 years, wellness initiatives, etc. I don't know how helpful these things are in the long run. For example, the NYU grad intern at Columbia that committed suicide was in AOA: http://www.times-herald.com/obits/20140822obit-o-rourke, so having great academics doesn't necessarily mean you're immune from not being happy.

More importantly, what qualities should one have before entering medical school to not have that loss of empathy, depersonalization, etc.? Or facilitators?

Is there a decrease in empathy in dental school, for example, @fancymylotus?

Interesting thoughts, Derm. Especially the hidden curriculum point. I've wondered about this myself..and honestly, I have no idea. It may be likely though, that in order to be a good doctor, *some* degree of empathy must be beaten out of the person, in order for that person to be able to do their job and function on a day to day basis.

THIS.

Effectively the only people who can realistically back out of medical school are the ones whose parents are paying their entire tuition bill in full. That's why I think premeds should be doing more realistic shadowing experiences to see if medicine is in fact right for them.[/
QUOTE]

Reading up on Sdn? Lol. Still catching up on this thread..lots of good stuff here to read!

 

[Megalomis]

I'm not reading the whole thread. And I don't know if this has been said.

What seems like a "loss of empathy" is I think merely the product of a process of maturing your emotions to deal with the job. While some folks never make it back from total lack and cynicism, I think the empathy comes back once you're done with training. You understand it's place better and your own emotions in the middle of the context of the whole patient care. At least this has been my experience. I care what happens to my patients, but I know it's not the be all, end all, and patients also need me to be a doctor not an empath, even if the two need to appropriately overlap somewhere. It's nuanced, but you all will just have to see what happens on the other side.

Really like this. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Sweet Orange Juice]

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6920/14/58

Abstract
Background
A number of studies have indicated that students lose idealistic motivations over the course of medical education, with some identifying the initiation of this decline as occurring as early as the second year of the traditional US curricula. This study builds on prior work testing the hypothesis that a decline in medical student idealism is detectable in the first two years of medical school.

Methods
The original study sought to identify differences in survey responses between first-year (MS1) and second-year (MS2) medical students at the beginning and end of academic year 2010, on three proxies for idealism. The current study extends that work by administering the same survey items to the same student cohorts at the end of their third and fourth years (MS3 and MS4), respectively. Survey topics included questions on: (a) motivations for pursuing a medical career; (b) specialty choice; and (c) attitudes toward primary care. Principle component analysis was used to extract linear composite variables (LCVs) from responses to each group of questions. Linear regression was then used to test the effect of the six cohort/time-points on each composite variable, controlling for demographic characteristics.

Results
Idealism in medicine decreased (β = -.113, p < .001) while emphasis on employment and job security increased (β = .146, p < .001) as motivators of pursuing a career in medicine at each medical school stage and time period. Students were more likely to be motivated by student debt over interest in content in specialty choice (β = .077, p = .004) across medical school stages. Negative attitudes towards primary care were most sensitive to MS group and time effects. Both negative/antagonistic views (β = .142, p < .001) and negative/sympathetic views (β = .091, p < .001) of primary care increased over each stage.

Conclusions
Our results provide further evidence that declines in medical student idealism may occur as early as the second year of medical education. Additionally, as students make choices in their medical careers, such as specialty choice or consideration of primary care, the influences of job security, student debt and social status increasingly outweigh idealistic motivations.