I am totally clueless on what to do :-)

[foreverLaur]

You know, now this is getting annoying. You're griping about having to take psych. You're griping about the A&P. It's "difficult" because you will be dealing with peoples' lives. You had better know your stuff. It would be better for you to have to repeat something than to have not gotten information you needed. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for you or if it doesn't fit in with your life plan. It's attitudes like this that make so many people skeptical of DE programs--because many of the people who want to do them are just looking for the fast and easy route to quick $$. They don't stop to think that "Hey, I'm playing with lives here."

Medical students are not even required to have anatomy OR physiology to gain acceptance. They take anatomy and physiology in their medical school coursework. Guess what? PA students and MSN students also take anatomy and physiology at the graduate level. They do this so that students are PREPARED to take these courses.

I hate to break it to you, but I would almost guaranteed that I know more anatomy and physiology than most students who took Anatomy & Physiology I and II because I took it my courses at a top ranked medical school and both courses were taught by medical school faculty (all MDs). I also received copies of a syllabus for Anatomy & Physiology I and II labs, and there is nothing they teach that I didn't learn in my human cadaver lab and physiology coursework. Additionally, there must be a reason why my anatomy with a lab and two physiology courses without labs transfer to schools as their anatomy & physiology I/II WITH labs.

I'm not so much saying I would want to retake (I do find it interesting), but it does seem a tad bit unnecessary seeing as how I already have the knowledge and will be taking it again in my graduate program. Additionally, the big problem lies in the fact that these schools WILL NOT ALLOW ME to take their Anatomy & Physiology I/II with labs because I received transfer credit for these courses. So it is more so the fact that I am not allowed to, not that I don't want to. All the schools I have found that offer anatomy and physiology do not offer a physiology lab, just like my school. So unless I find a school that offers just physiology with a lab, I seem to be out of luck. The schools won't let me take the combined Anatomy & Physiology classes with both labs (and I need both) because I have already taken anatomy, anatomy lab, and two physiology classes.

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[fab4fan]

If you want it bad enough, it's up to you to make it work. If that means moving or a long commute, then...

It's called "sacrifice."

Medical students aren't required to have A&P prior? Gee...maybe that's because they spend so much time on that in medical school. You cannot compare NP education requirements to med school. They are two completely different educational tracks, and two different professions.

You're really coming off like you just want this all handed to you with as little muss and fuss as possible. It doesn't work that way.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

Medical students are not even required to have anatomy OR physiology to gain acceptance. They take anatomy and physiology in their medical school coursework. Guess what? PA students and MSN students also take anatomy and physiology at the graduate level. They do this so that students are PREPARED to take these courses.

I hate to break it to you, but I would almost guaranteed that I know more anatomy and physiology than most students who took Anatomy & Physiology I and II because I took it my courses at a top ranked medical school and both courses were taught by medical school faculty (all MDs). I also received copies of a syllabus for Anatomy & Physiology I and II labs, and there is nothing they teach that I didn't learn in my human cadaver lab and physiology coursework. Additionally, there must be a reason why my anatomy with a lab and two physiology courses without labs transfer to schools as their anatomy & physiology I/II WITH labs.

I'm not so much saying I would want to retake (I do find it interesting), but it does seem a tad bit unnecessary seeing as how I already have the knowledge and will be taking it again in my graduate program. Additionally, the big problem lies in the fact that these schools WILL NOT ALLOW ME to take their Anatomy & Physiology I/II with labs because I received transfer credit for these courses. So it is more so the fact that I am not allowed to, not that I don't want to. All the schools I have found that offer anatomy and physiology do not offer a physiology lab, just like my school. So unless I find some school outside of a 4 hour radius of my hometown, it looks like I am screwed as I have called every school that offers these courses and had my transcripts evaluated. If a school existed outside that radius I would have to pick up and move for a semester to take a physiology lab. Seriously?

 

[Salamandrina]

It's attitudes like this that make so many people skeptical of DE programs--because many of the people who want to do them are just looking for the fast and easy route to quick $$. They don't stop to think that "Hey, I'm playing with lives here."

Oh yea, the DE people are out for the money and none of them care whose health they harm because they don't stop to think "Hey, I'm playing with lives here."

This is extremely insulting.

Yes, I am currently in DE program but I also realized that I would do myself a favor by working through school and doing the program more slowly so I will have 3+ years experience as an RN before I am an NP. It isn't that I was a money grubber (if I were, I would have taken the job at Google that I was offered). I walked away from a lot of money and went $60k+ further into student loan debt to pursue this career.

I never once failed to realize the implication of the work on patient lives.

You have a hang up with DE programs. Fine. Bitch about how the people that come out are underprepared. Bitch about how their universities are nothing but degree factories. But don't presume to know the motivations or considerations of the people that chose this route. These are your teammates you are bad mouthing here.

 

[foreverLaur]

If you want it bad enough, it's up to you to make it work. If that means moving or a long commute, then...

It's called "sacrifice."

Medical students aren't required to have A&P prior? Gee...maybe that's because they spend so much time on that in medical school. You cannot compare NP education requirements to med school. They are two completely different educational tracks, and two different professions.

You're really coming off like you just want this all handed to you with as little muss and fuss as possible. It doesn't work that way.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

My roommate is in medical school. Med Students don't take any more anatomy and physiology than PA students do. Oh and I already took medical school level anatomy and physiology classes - I had med students IN my class. So yes, I am anatomy and physiology educated to the level of a medical student right now.

I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but I do not think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to uprooting from my home and family to move out of state and pay massive tuition to take a physiology lab when I won't learn anything I didn't already learn in my human cadaver lab.... oh and wait... the schools won't let me do that anyways!!

Oh yea and my DE program at my university doesn't require any labs with anatomy and physiology for entry. Just the PA programs do.

 

[fab4fan]

I have no problem saying flat out that I do not trust DE grads. I have to be honest, I wouldn't let one take care of me or my family. I'm not alone in feeling that way; it will be up to you guys to prove that you're equal to the task. It's really not up to the public to make people with minimal to no experience feel accepted.

If you're all for them, good for you. You're entitled to your opinion. I've heard too many of them talking about how fast they can get through and how fast they can make the $$. And how they wouldn't deign to lower themselves to work as "nurses." (As if they, in the end, aren't nurses themselves.) Experience is "irrelevant." Or my favorite, "We'll have experienced staff to show us what we need to know."

 

[core0]

I also tried to take it at a local community college, but my credits transferred in as their Anatomy & Physiology I and II with the labs, so they won't let me retake.

The way that you get around this is you don't do this for credit at your other program. You don't need it for your current program. Sign up as a regular non degree seeking student. Take the classes. Submit them directly to the program. The only issue you have is some programs will not take CC classes so make sure it will fly. I am not sure exactly what the hang up they are having is.
Looking at the Ohio programs
University of Toledo - Anatomy - lab recommended. Physiology - lab recommended.

Marietta - Anatomy 4 credits, Physiology 3 credits, No lab required, if a combined class is taken must be six credits.

Kettering - Human Anatomy and Physiology with lab - 8 credits

CCC - human A&P with lab - needs to be equivalent of a 2 semester course.

So looking at the four programs in OH which I would consider worthwhile, two would have a problem with your A&P and two wouldn't. Looking at some other programs such as Duke, Iowa and Emory (to complete the top 3 according to USN&WR) none require A&P with labs. Some recommend them but none require them. I am not sure if you are not getting good information or not asking the right questions. Most graduate programs recognize that different schools do things in different manners. The accommodate things accordingly. Looking at a few programs randomly, I see that more programs are not requiring A&P but are requiring more biochem and statistics. This is probably related to the move toward a masters. Community colleges are more likely to be rigid in prior course from what I've seen.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[foreverLaur]

The way that you get around this is you don't do this for credit at your other program. You don't need it for your current program. Sign up as a regular non degree seeking student. Take the classes. Submit them directly to the program. The only issue you have is some programs will not take CC classes so make sure it will fly. I am not sure exactly what the hang up they are having is.
Looking at the Ohio programs
University of Toledo - Anatomy - lab recommended. Physiology - lab recommended.

Marietta - Anatomy 4 credits, Physiology 3 credits, No lab required, if a combined class is taken must be six credits.

Kettering - Human Anatomy and Physiology with lab - 8 credits

CCC - human A&P with lab - needs to be equivalent of a 2 semester course.

So looking at the four programs in OH which I would consider worthwhile, two would have a problem with your A&P and two wouldn't. Looking at some other programs such as Duke, Iowa and Emory (to complete the top 3 according to USN&WR) none require A&P with labs. Some recommend them but none require them. I am not sure if you are not getting good information or not asking the right questions. Most graduate programs recognize that different schools do things in different manners. The accommodate things accordingly. Looking at a few programs randomly, I see that more programs are not requiring A&P but are requiring more biochem and statistics. This is probably related to the move toward a masters. Community colleges are more likely to be rigid in prior course from what I've seen.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I am only considering Toledo and KCMA because they are the only two the offer a Masters (unless this has changed since the website I have been referencing was published). I prefer KCMA strongly because of location and I currently have a petition submitted.

I am only considering masters programs as I refuse to attend school for two more years and not get a degree above what I already have

The fiance has been looking to relocate to TX, NC, or SC and all the programs I have looked at there thus far require labs with anatomy and physiology.

I'm hoping maybe I will only have to take one anatomy/physiology lab on top of everything else since I already have an extensive anatomy lab.

If it doesn't work out with getting in because of this prereq - maybe it means I was supposed to go the NP route? I've sorta been all about the "signs" thing lately.



p.s. Thanks a million to everyone who has offered true advice and has gone to the effort to look at my situation and try to help. I really really appreciate it.

 

[core0]

I am only considering Toledo and KCMA because they are the only two the offer a Masters (unless this has changed since the website I have been referencing was published). I prefer KCMA strongly because of location and I currently have a petition submitted.

I am only considering masters programs as I refuse to attend school for two more years and not get a degree above what I already have

The fiance has been looking to relocate to TX, NC, or SC and all the programs I have looked at there thus far require labs with anatomy and physiology.

I'm hoping maybe I will only have to take one anatomy/physiology lab on top of everything else since I already have an extensive anatomy lab.

If it doesn't work out with getting in because of this prereq - maybe it means I was supposed to go the NP route? I've sorta been all about the "signs" thing lately.

p.s. Thanks a million to everyone who has offered true advice and has gone to the effort to look at my situation and try to help. I really really appreciate it.

CCC has a masters option also. Generally it does not matter what degree you get and its pretty easy to get a Masters while in practice. However, in OH because of the state practice act you would be foolish not to get a masters. That being said all of the education is the same so any PA program is good.

To give you some idea what you are up against, in 2006 there were 7600 applicants for 3800 seats. That means that 1/2 of the students that wanted to go to PA school did not get in. For applicants the average GPA was 3.25 and the average amount of health care experience was 3.28 years. What I am saying here is that it is difficult to get into PA school. Your lack of direct patient care experience and GPA are going to make it harder. You would get the same advice from me that you would in the allo forum if you asked about medical school. Apply broadly and take what you can get.

I can't say how competitive NP schools are. Right now there is a significant nursing shortage and nursing spots are at a premium. I can tell you in Denver or at Emory you would not be competitive for a BSN program. I am not sure how competitive NP programs are. My sense is that the ACNP programs are very competitive (small N). Distance learning FNP programs seem to be easier to get into but have other disadvantages.

Only you can decide what you want to do. Nobody is going to give you anything. There is sufficient competition for almost any healthcare career that you are going to have to demonstrate that you believe in the field and show why they should choose you over someone else.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Salamandrina]

I have no problem saying flat out that I do not trust DE grads. I have to be honest, I wouldn't let one take care of me or my family. I'm not alone in feeling that way; it will be up to you guys to prove that you're equal to the task. It's really not up to the public to make people with minimal to no experience feel accepted.

If you're all for them, good for you. You're entitled to your opinion. I've heard too many of them talking about how fast they can get through and how fast they can make the $$. And how they wouldn't deign to lower themselves to work as "nurses." (As if they, in the end, aren't nurses themselves.) Experience is "irrelevant." Or my favorite, "We'll have experienced staff to show us what we need to know."

There are dickheads in every profession. This includes nurses. What bothers me is that you are making assumptions about motivation based on said dickheads. In my program I have only met one (Just one) person that ever mentioned money as a motivating factor. I am no spring chicken. I have worked a long time and I know what motivates me and what I am looking for in a career. Please don't assume that my motivations are any less well thought out or intentioned than yours.

For a lot of us the reason we are doing DE is because we are older and have a desire to get into the work we want to do because we feel like we have delayed getting there too much already. It isn't that we are lazy or don't want to do floor work. Most of us love our clinical rotaions and get excited to do a foley. Again, I heard one girl say something akin to "Well, at least I won't have to do bed pans for the rest of my career" but trust me, she is the exception--not the rule.

 

[foreverLaur]

I have no problem saying flat out that I do not trust DE grads. I have to be honest, I wouldn't let one take care of me or my family.

So every time you see a nurse practitioner the conversation goes:

you: so, did you get BSN and then MSN or did you do a direct entry program?
nurse practitioner: i had a bachelors in biochemistry first, and then did a three year MSN program
you: hell with this - your a joke. see you later.

you leave.

 

[fab4fan]

Laur: You had better believe I would investigate ahead of time any healthcare provider giving me or a family member care. It's called being an informed pt.

So no, I wouldn't need to have that conversation. Your attempt to start an argument is noted.

Once again, good luck to you in your future endeavors. You made it clear in a previous post what kind of feedback you're looking for, so I see no further need to continue replying to you, since I can't give it to you.

 

[foreverLaur]

There really is no difference between a BSN to MSN vs a DE MSN. At least at my school, we talked ALL the same curriculum as a BSN with the exception of the general education requirements because we already took all of those with our previous bachelors degree. Otherwise, the nursing and science curriculum does not differ at all. The MSN program is then 100% identical and the clinical and patient experience hours do not differ at all. Therefore, I am not understanding why you think a DE MSN is so much worse than a regular MSN prepared NP.

I obviously cannot speak for all schools, but this is the case at mine.

I am looking for advice on which career option is best for my interests and what the best route is for me to get there. I am not looking for someone to tell me that one of my career considerations is filled with a bunch of blow off future nurses who will be horrible at their job someday.

 

[Rndaized]

a few errors here.....as a pa I have my own license and my own dea#. I have to have an affiliation agreement with a physician in order for my license to be active in the state. I have a scope of practice just like any physician in my dept with a hospital approved list of procedures, etc.
I have a sponsoring physician who reviews a small % of my charts ( 0-10% depending on which of my jobs we are discussing).
pa's can open their own practices in many states with minimal physician involvement. the pa hires a physician and pays them a trivial amount to meet legal requirements. for example north carolina defines "supervision" as a 30 min meeting with a physician every 6 months to discuss the practice. no chart review required.
california requires a 5 % chart review. oregon requires 10%.
when you look at how many pa's and np's actually own their own practice and see all their own pts the #s are the same, from 2-5% depending on the study.
I do agree with you that acnp is the way to go as an np if you want to work in the hospital. most fnp programs have little or no inpatient experience at all and most have no surgical component.

I see where you are coming from. My information came from Carolyn Buppert, JD for Medical/Business Practice and Legal Guide 2007. Yes, every state does do some things differently--it would be great if all states were on the same page and not on so many different ones. I reside in a state that allows for full prescriptive services etc....the state below us doesn't allow NPs or PAs to even sign off on a sports physical.......but yet will allow for both to do--then the MD will sign it and get paid for what one of the other two have done.....this came up in the NANPA meeting last month. Buppert who has her JD is now a practicing Judge came to this meeting on behalf of the NANPA members to help break down the legal barriers/jargon set forth by the medical association for that state. So, no matter what state you work in be sure to really know what is in your practice standards. Some hospitals will allow you to do certain things--but does the state recognize it? I know that AL is not one state I would practice in right now. Yet AR is wide open with no restrictions of any kind......NPs and PAs came about in the 1960s to help with the physician shortage and to compliment medicine--not to compete with MDs--and there are those who do see what we do as "taking away their bread and butter so to speak.." ACNPs can work in about any setting except for Peds--if one chooses to work with peds then it requires 2 classes to fulfill to obtain your FNP to add to your ACNP (from the University were I attended). After working ICU, MICU, SVICU and the ED for many years--I chose not to work with peds--love the kids--not alot of the parents.......PAs and NPs are both greatly needed and should be accepted by all of the medical community--no barriers for either. Hopefully one day we will see that--and some states are better on that than others already..........

 

[foreverLaur]

Anyone know where I can find out these laws for PAs and NPs? I have found websites that list the actual laws... not that I really want to read THAT much information and can't really udnerstand it anyways.

I'm looking for more like:
Alabama: Full presciptive authority. Must meet with MD/DO once every 6 months for discussion
Alaska: All prescriptions must be authorized by MD/DO.

you know...


I have a job offer to work in a skull based lab. Essentially two guys with their MD/PhD run this lab and work on human cadavers to better neurological surgery procedures and try to discover new ones and learn more about the brain. I would be helping to prep the brains and actually doing some surgical work on them. I figured this might be useful as I would actually be performing some brain surgery... just on dead people . As this is non paid and I don't get any credit for school out of it, do you think it is useful enough? I thought it might give up a "leg up" on other PA graduates who are hoping to get into surgery since I have sorta already had surgical experience outside of the normal PA curriculum.

 

[core0]

Anyone know where I can find out these laws for PAs and NPs? I have found websites that list the actual laws... not that I really want to read THAT much information and can't really udnerstand it anyways.

I'm looking for more like:
Alabama: Full presciptive authority. Must meet with MD/DO once every 6 months for discussion
Alaska: All prescriptions must be authorized by MD/DO.

you know...


I have a job offer to work in a skull based lab. Essentially two guys with their MD/PhD run this lab and work on human cadavers to better neurological surgery procedures and try to discover new ones and learn more about the brain. I would be helping to prep the brains and actually doing some surgical work on them. I figured this might be useful as I would actually be performing some brain surgery... just on dead people . As this is non paid and I don't get any credit for school out of it, do you think it is useful enough? I thought it might give up a "leg up" on other PA graduates who are hoping to get into surgery since I have sorta already had surgical experience outside of the normal PA curriculum.

For PAs its at the AAPA, for prescriptive practice:
http://www.aapa.org/gandp/rxchart.html
For general practice it is here:
http://www.aapa.org/gandp/statelaw.html
For NPs it is called the Pearson report:
http://www.webnp.net/archives/pearson.pdf

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[brightness]

Personally I feel that if you are limited by location, nursing is a better choice. In my state there at least 10 nursing departments, and 5 offer one year accelerated BSN programs. I too would be limited somewhat geographically as to what I do, so I know how you feel. Moving away to a strange place alone for graduate school or work is not for everybody, even though a lot of people do it and are happy.

 

[foreverLaur]

Personally I feel that if you are limited by location, nursing is a better choice. In my state there at least 10 nursing departments, and 5 offer one year accelerated BSN programs. I too would be limited somewhat geographically as to what I do, so I know how you feel. Moving away to a strange place alone for graduate school or work is not for everybody, even though a lot of people do it and are happy.

I did move 8 hours away and lived alone all this past summer, but I had a full time job making incredible money. On top of 4 years of college education, 2-4 more years of graduate education and having to pay for a place to live and summer classes on top of that - simply cannot afford it.

I am currently petitioning to a few schools to not have to take the physiology lab requirement - I got a syllabus for my classes and the anatomy/physiology labs at other schools and there really isn't any new material. *crosses fingers*

I am going to apply to Ohio State's graduate entry program for nursing because it is the only program I can get into right after I graduate. If I don't get in, then I will be pursuing the PA route. Another one of my famous "i can't decide so i will let the adcoms decide which is better for me"

 

[Yourmother]

Crna

 

[blackfoot13]

*NOTE* I never intended to work as an RN. I only intended to use it as a stepping stone to either (1) get the experience for PA school or (2) use it as a stepping stone to get my Masters in Nursing

I am pretty sure that you are required to have atleast one year experience(sometimes two) in acute care nursing in order to even be able to apply to a Masters program for nursing. All of the NP programs that I have seen have this requirement.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never heard of being able to jump into advanced practice nursing without ever being a nurse.

 

[foreverLaur]

I am pretty sure that you are required to have atleast one year experience(sometimes two) in acute care nursing in order to even be able to apply to a Masters program for nursing. All of the NP programs that I have seen have this requirement.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never heard of being able to jump into advanced practice nursing without ever being a nurse.

There are plenty of direct entry MSN programs that don't require anything but a few courses and a bachelors degree in non-nursing. I know in my state that Case Western and Ohio State both have them and maybe a few others that I am not aware of.

You only need previous critical care experience for hospital based specialties such as neonatal nurse practitioner, acute care nurse practitioner, and CRNA. I am probably missing one or two. Nurse Practitioners who wish to go into family med, pediatrics, etc aren't required to have this experience. Additionally, this experience is not required to enter the program, only to become certified. However, most programs require the experience prior to entering the Masters program so that graduates are immediately eligible to become certified.
*note* information came from Case Western University School of Nursing

So my plan was to either enter a direct entry MSN program immediately upon graduation at Ohio State (http://nursing.osu.edu/Academic.aspx?page=9) or to enter an accelerated BSN program for 1 year and then work as an RN in critical care for ~ 2 years and decide if I then want to enter an MSN program to become an NP or if I want to enter a program to become a CRNA.

 

[blackfoot13]

There are plenty of direct entry MSN programs that don't require anything but a few courses and a bachelors degree in non-nursing. I know in my state that Case Western and Ohio State both have them and maybe a few others that I am not aware of.

You only need previous critical care experience for hospital based specialties such as neonatal nurse practitioner, acute care nurse practitioner, and CRNA. I am probably missing one or two. Nurse Practitioners who wish to go into family med, pediatrics, etc aren't required to have this experience. Additionally, this experience is not required to enter the program, only to become certified. However, most programs require the experience prior to entering the Masters program so that graduates are immediately eligible to become certified.
*note* information came from Case Western University School of Nursing

So my plan was to either enter a direct entry MSN program immediately upon graduation at Ohio State (http://nursing.osu.edu/Academic.aspx?page=9) or to enter an accelerated BSN program for 1 year and then work as an RN in critical care for ~ 2 years and decide if I then want to enter an MSN program to become an NP or if I want to enter a program to become a CRNA.

Wow, I had no idea that you could do that. I am in a similar situation as you in way because I am unsure if I want to be a nurse in the long run. For many years, I went back and forth from pre-med to nursing. I figured that I have wasted so much time weighing my options that I might as well go with the option that will provide me with clinical experience in the fastest amount of time, so I ended up choosing nursing and I start the nursing program in January.

My ultimate goal is to either be a Nurse Practitioner or a CRNA as well, but working as an RN in the meantime is fine for me because I believe that it will provide me with excellent clinical experience in the meantime. I guess you can never be certain if it is for you until you actually do it...and not to say that medical school is still out of sight and out of mind. I often hear that it is looked down upon for nurses to go to medical school, but it's still a thought. I will most likely stick with nursing though.

I would personally find it more beneficial to actually be a nurse before you go as far as advanced practice. I think it would help you in the long run to have real life experience. I could imagine feeling incompetent as a NP with no real experience (besides your minimal clinical experience) compared to RNs with a huge wealth of knowledge and experience.

Which route are you leaning more toward?

 

[foreverLaur]

Wow, I had no idea that you could do that. I am in a similar situation as you in way because I am unsure if I want to be a nurse in the long run. For many years, I went back and forth from pre-med to nursing. I figured that I have wasted so much time weighing my options that I might as well go with the option that will provide me with clinical experience in the fastest amount of time, so I ended up choosing nursing and I start the nursing program in January.

My ultimate goal is to either be a Nurse Practitioner or a CRNA as well, but working as an RN in the meantime is fine for me because I believe that it will provide me with excellent clinical experience in the meantime. I guess you can never be certain if it is for you until you actually do it...and not to say that medical school is still out of sight and out of mind. I often hear that it is looked down upon for nurses to go to medical school, but it's still a thought. I will most likely stick with nursing though.

I would personally find it more beneficial to actually be a nurse before you go as far as advanced practice. I think it would help you in the long run to have real life experience. I could imagine feeling incompetent as a NP with no real experience (besides your minimal clinical experience) compared to RNs with a huge wealth of knowledge and experience.

Which route are you leaning more toward?

Right now I am pretty sure I am going to apply to a CRNA program. However, they are SO competitive so there is always that chance that I won't get in. If I don't, I will become an acute care or neonatal nurse practitioner most likely. Either way, I will be happy.

I wanted to be a doctor for 16 years - no joke. I used to perform surgery on my food from the time I was 4 years old. I did extensive research on the medical profession and path to get there, shadowed over 20 doctors, took a course in the insurance of medicine, and took an in depth look at my long term goals and desires. I found that when weighing the pros and cons of medicine vs advanced practice nursing that nursing won by a long shot, so here I go!

 

[blackfoot13]

Right now I am pretty sure I am going to apply to a CRNA program. However, they are SO competitive so there is always that chance that I won't get in. If I don't, I will become an acute care or neonatal nurse practitioner most likely. Either way, I will be happy.

I wanted to be a doctor for 16 years - no joke. I used to perform surgery on my food from the time I was 4 years old. I did extensive research on the medical profession and path to get there, shadowed over 20 doctors, took a course in the insurance of medicine, and took an in depth look at my long term goals and desires. I found that when weighing the pros and cons of medicine vs advanced practice nursing that nursing won by a long shot, so here I go!

I am on the fence with NP and CRNA...I would have to hear more positive things about CRNAs besides the salaries. It just seems like I hear so many negative things. I can imagine that they are competitive. It seems like everyone I talk to in nursing school wants to be a CRNA!

I have always wanted to be a doctor as well. When I was little I always wanted to be an Anesthesiologist, but then when college came around I got a little lost in what I wanted to do.

So, tell me why nursing won. I would love to hear more convincing because I am still trying to convince myself...

 

[foreverLaur]

I am on the fence with NP and CRNA...I would have to hear more positive things about CRNAs besides the salaries. It just seems like I hear so many negative things. I can imagine that they are competitive. It seems like everyone I talk to in nursing school wants to be a CRNA!

I have always wanted to be a doctor as well. When I was little I always wanted to be an Anesthesiologist, but then when college came around I got a little lost in what I wanted to do.

So, tell me why nursing won. I would love to hear more convincing because I am still trying to convince myself...

If you want to hear my reasons why not medicine and why nursing, just IM me on AIM at foreverLaur3 (preferably) or send me a PM with your e-mail.

My friend is a CRNA and this is what she said when I messaged her about my dilemma:

"Sounds like you've done a lot of research into this on your own... From what I have seen working at the Cleveland Clinic and the University of Chicago, I see more Nurse Practitioners working on the units, in surgery, etc. I just took a little informal survey here (I'm at work) and no one knows of any PAs here, but we do use NPs (I'm at a major university hospital). Also, I don't think that you have any less flexibility as an NP than you do as a PA--if you're an adult or acute care NP, you can essentially work in any field (besides peds). There are some specific areas that use a lot of PAs--specifically cardiothoracic surgery. However, if you get one of those jobs, what you do depends 100% on what the surgeon you are working with lets you do. There is not a defined role for PAs there--ie. you may be in the OR, or you may be writing orders and doing scut-work on the floors so that the residents can be in the OR. I love being a CRNA, but you have to do what you feel is for you. I always watch the entire surgery, and would venture to say that it is the responsibility of the anesthesia provider to do so. There are sterile drapes--don't get me wrong--I'm not doing any suturing or anything like that--but I have a different role. That is to keep the patient stable, determine what treatments they need during surgery (blood transfusions, pain management, etc.) and do those things. I also do a lot of nerve blocks, epidurals, spinals, central and arterial line placements, etc. "

 

[johankriek]

For those of you that don't know me, I'll give some background information. I'll also try to condense this and put it all together from the post I put on the PA forum earlier. Just trying to get as much advice and input as possible.

-I am a 21 year old college junior/senior.
-I attended full time post secondary in high school, but used it as a "joke off" time and received absolutely terrible grades and didn't get credit for any useful classes. I wish I would have used those two years as so much more!
-After graduating high school in 2005, I went to college at a smaller "public ivy league" school and spent two years as an accounting major. I worked for a small firm doing construction project accounting one year and then worked as an auditor for Ernst & Young. I hated my major, hated my school, hated the location of the school, and hated the people there. I wish that (1) I never would have went there (money reasons) and (2) I wish I would have went through with my transfer after my first year
-I finally transferred to the original college of choice for my third year of college. I am carrying with me a 2.51 GPA (primarily brought down by those post secondary years, and not brought up too much by hating everything about my old school/major). I changed my major to something I enjoy (microbiology), love my school, my roommates, and the school's location. I have had a 3.88 GPA since I transferred.
-I have wanted to be a doctor since I was 4 years old. I drew a picture of me working with my pediatrician at that age and gave it to him saying I was going to work with him when I grew up. I used to perform "surgery" on my food.

So, a really big part of me wants to go to medical school. It is all I have ever wanted to do, despite dabbling in many other career options. I have been particularly interested in orthopaedic surgeon, but I have looked at pediatrics (then doing a neonatal/perinatal medicine fellowship), emergency medicine, other surgical fields, and interventional radiology.

However, I am a female who has a strong maternal instinct. I want to get married and have my first kid before I am 30. I want to have 3-5 kids. I don't want to miss anything in their life... a first Halloween, a first Christmas, their first step, etc. I want to potty train them and be there when they go off to their first day of school. I want to go to every event they have, whether it is a play, a musical, a sporting event, etc. I will be 27 years old when I graduate medical school (if I get in the first time around). I am looking at a 5+ year residency then, making me 32. So if I don't want to miss any "milestones" in my kid's lives, I can't really start until I am of that age. I know people say you can "make it work" but a lot of the fields I am interested in make that very difficult. The orthopaedic surgeon I shadowed many times brings her son to work on Saturday's to catch up on paperwork because it is one of the few times she can spend with him.

So, my person viewpoint is that if I do not go to medical school, I will always regret not being a doctor. However, I will never regret not having insanely long hours. I will never regret missing parts of my children growing up. There are many things about being a doctor I do not like. My mom works for doctors. I have shadowed and talked to more doctors than I can even remember.

Needless to say, I believe the cons outweigh the pros of going to medical school in my case. So I have been looking at other options.

(1) Entering a 3 year Masters in Nursing program for people with a non-nursing bachelors degree and working as a Nurse Practitioner.
(2) Entering a 2 year Physician Assistant program
(3) Doing a 12-15 month accelerated BSN program, working for a bit as an RN, and then doing a MSN or DNP program or then entering a PA program

I know I want to work in a hospital as I prefer to crazy busy environment of a hospital over a doctors office. I know I want to touch lives and help people as much as possible. I like the idea of a PA because I could still do surgery.

Any input on which of the 3 routes would be best for me? I am always open to suggestions. Do you think NP or PA would be better suited for me? Why?
I certainly have much better access to nursing programs vs PA programs, but I don't know... can't decide what to do

you are describing dentistry,(great field), Pharmacy(also a great field)

These fields offer a stable career, good pay, ability to work in varied practice environments..

I know you like excitement but listen to me.. when you are 35 you will truly not want to go to a hospital to work. Trust me. They are pits.. and they will rob you of all of your clarity in life..

 

[collegefootball]

If you want to hear my reasons why not medicine and why nursing, just IM me on AIM at foreverLaur3 (preferably) or send me a PM with your e-mail.

My friend is a CRNA and this is what she said when I messaged her about my dilemma:

"Sounds like you've done a lot of research into this on your own... From what I have seen working at the Cleveland Clinic and the University of Chicago, I see more Nurse Practitioners working on the units, in surgery, etc. I just took a little informal survey here (I'm at work) and no one knows of any PAs here, but we do use NPs (I'm at a major university hospital). Also, I don't think that you have any less flexibility as an NP than you do as a PA--if you're an adult or acute care NP, you can essentially work in any field (besides peds). There are some specific areas that use a lot of PAs--specifically cardiothoracic surgery. However, if you get one of those jobs, what you do depends 100% on what the surgeon you are working with lets you do. There is not a defined role for PAs there--ie. you may be in the OR, or you may be writing orders and doing scut-work on the floors so that the residents can be in the OR. I love being a CRNA, but you have to do what you feel is for you. I always watch the entire surgery, and would venture to say that it is the responsibility of the anesthesia provider to do so. There are sterile drapes--don't get me wrong--I'm not doing any suturing or anything like that--but I have a different role. That is to keep the patient stable, determine what treatments they need during surgery (blood transfusions, pain management, etc.) and do those things. I also do a lot of nerve blocks, epidurals, spinals, central and arterial line placements, etc. "

Hi,

I hope that you decide on what you want to do with your life. This is a really difficult process to go through. A lot of people are never able to figure it out. That is why you hear a lot of people in their 30's and 40's saying they still don't kow what they want to do with their life. Once you figure out what you love to do, your life is so much more happy.

It took me a good 4 years to figure out what to do with my life. Once I figured it out, after doing field experience, shadowing, volunteer work, and classes, I was able to focus on what the career offers and figure out what people do in that area and what trends are present in the area.

I wish you the best.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

I was told that the 1 year critical care experience for CRNA programs is a requirement for accreditation of the programs, so you won't be able to get into any CRNA programs without 1 year of working as a RN - this includes being off orientation.



This makes the local AA program much more appealing...

 

[foreverLaur]

Thank you so much for the advice... to everyone.

My parents always rag on me that I am 21 years old and still nowhere close to having a career where all of my friends and other people from my high school graduating class are.

My explanation? I'd rather spend an extra 1-2 years in college figuring out what it truly is I want to do than be 30 and realize I hate my job and have to go back and change.

My dad is an alumni of a specific college in my area and they sent him like newsletters and tons of other stuff. In it, it states that this college is adding another MSN specialty to their list: Acute Care Pediatric Nurse Practitioner. It is a three year masters program in which you are dual certified in primary care and acute care. My eyes grew very wide when I looked at it: this is exactly what I have been looking for and it is under 15 minutse from my house and one or two in my state and one of 12 nationwide. I am SO excited right now!

I was told that the 1 year critical care experience for CRNA programs is a requirement for accreditation of the programs, so you won't be able to get into any CRNA programs without 1 year of working as a RN - this includes being off orientation.

This makes the local AA program much more appealing...

That still doesn't make AA appealing to me. I would much rather do a 1 year accelerated BSN program and work for 1 year as an RN and make some cash than spend a ton of money to go back to school to take all those premedical courses and spend even more money to prep for and take the MCAT and then do the exact same job as a CRNA, only in less states.

 

[deleted6669]

I was told that the 1 year critical care experience for CRNA programs is a requirement for accreditation of the programs, so you won't be able to get into any CRNA programs without 1 year of working as a RN - this includes being off orientation.



This makes the local AA program much more appealing...

for what it's worth. many programs count er nursing as well so you don't have to do icu if you don't want to (but it probably is better prep).
the best path to AA is probably resp. therapy working in a critical care area. all airway, all the time.

 

[Northerner]

Thank you so much for the advice... to everyone.

My parents always rag on me that I am 21 years old and still nowhere close to having a career where all of my friends and other people from my high school graduating class are.

My explanation? I'd rather spend an extra 1-2 years in college figuring out what it truly is I want to do than be 30 and realize I hate my job and have to go back and change.

My dad is an alumni of a specific college in my area and they sent him like newsletters and tons of other stuff. In it, it states that this college is adding another MSN specialty to their list: Acute Care Pediatric Nurse Practitioner. It is a three year masters program in which you are dual certified in primary care and acute care. My eyes grew very wide when I looked at it: this is exactly what I have been looking for and it is under 15 minutse from my house and one or two in my state and one of 12 nationwide. I am SO excited right now!




That still doesn't make AA appealing to me. I would much rather do a 1 year accelerated BSN program and work for 1 year as an RN and make some cash than spend a ton of money to go back to school to take all those premedical courses and spend even more money to prep for and take the MCAT and then do the exact same job as a CRNA, only in less states.

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist.

 

[foreverLaur]

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist.

I never said it did. I am not going to medical school so obviously I am never going to be an anesthesiologist. I'd rather be a CRNA if that was the medical specialty I desired anyways.

I said that AA=CRNA in practice (or so I have been told). The AA training program in my area requires 1 year of calculus, physics, biology, chemistyr, organic chemistry and 1/2 a year of biochem and then the MCAT. If the two fields are the same in practice, I'd much rather do a 1 year accelerated BSN program and then work in critical care as an RN for one year and make some money vs spending two years taking premedical courses and then taking the MCAT. CRNA > AA in my book.

Thus, the lack of nursing required for an AA makes it a downfall, not a plus in my book.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

You couldn't pay me enough to go back to the ICU to meet the year requirement for CRNA school.


Okay you could, but HCA probably wouldn't.



Oh, and I have all the prerequisites for AA school from my first degree in Biology. They are older than five years but I was told if I did well on the MCAT, it wouldn't matter.

 

[foreverLaur]

You couldn't pay me enough to go back to the ICU to meet the year requirement for CRNA school.


Okay you could, but HCA probably wouldn't.

Well then we're two very different people. I love the critical care environment, personally.

You, on the other hand, would rather pay two years of college tuition and spend year 5 and 6 in college taking hard premedical courses and then paying to take the MCAT to go into anesthesia. I'd rather work for one year in critical care and make money to go the same route.

And I don't have the prereqs because I opted to take the easiest major way out of college since I realized I wanted to go into healthcare minus medical school too late to get my original degree in nursing.

So, I have taken 1/2 a year of biology and 1/2 a year of chemistry and 1/2 a year of physics and Calc I.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

for what it's worth. many programs count er nursing as well so you don't have to do icu if you don't want to (but it probably is better prep).
the best path to AA is probably resp. therapy working in a critical care area. all airway, all the time.

None of the CRNA programs in my area will accept ER as CC. In fact, they won't even accept PACU, which seems a bit more relevant to midlevel anesthesia than ICU.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Well then we're two very different people. I love the critical care environment, personally.

You, on the other hand, would rather pay two years of college tuition and spend year 5 and 6 in college taking hard premedical courses and then paying to take the MCAT to go into anesthesia. I'd rather work for one year in critical care and make money to go the same route.

I'm 31 years old and have three degrees. All the hard premed courses were done back when gas was less than a dollar a gallon but all I need to do for AA school is take the MCAT.


I think critical care would be great working at the midlevel or physician level. But CC nursing...not for me.

 

[foreverLaur]

None of the CRNA programs in my area will accept ER as CC. In fact, they won't even accept PACU, which seems a bit more relevant to midlevel anesthesia than ICU.

My AA program requires:
one semester of biochemistry
one year of biology with laboratory
one year of anatomy with laboratory (human preferred)
one year of physiology
one year of chemistry with laboratory
one year of organic chemistry with laboratory
one year of physics with laboratory
one year of calculus for premedical/life sciences OR
one semester of calculus I & one semester of statistics (300 level)
one year of English with expository writing
**all these classes must be completed with a B- or better within 5 years of the application deadline unless you score higher than 25 on the MCAT.

My CRNA program requires, for experience:
-"A minimum of one year of current critical care experience. Current experience is defined as one consecutive year of critical care nursing. The following does not constitute critical care experience for admission to The University of Akron: operating room, labor and delivery, step down telemetry units, neonatal intensive care, emergency room, pediatric intensive care, post anesthesia care units and cardiac catheterization labs."

 

[foreverLaur]

I'm 31 years old and have three degrees. All the hard premed courses were done back when gas was less than a dollar a gallon but all I need to do for AA school is take the MCAT.


I think critical care would be great working at the midlevel or physician level. But CC nursing...not for me.

Well I am 21 year old college junior trying to get my first degree.

I could graduate on time and do 1 year accelerated BSN, work for a year, and then enter a CRNA program, or graduate and then spend 2 solid years taking AA prereq courses and then the MCAT. For me, the CRNA is the much better and faster route. I left my biology degree because I saw no point in taking tons of hard science classes that I was no longer going to use once I decided against medical school. If I am going to take them and the MCAT and go to school for 2 years, might as well just become a doctor, in my mind.

One year of any sort of nursing and making money way beats two years of hard classes I tried to avoid and taking the MCAT.

But that is my opinion and that is why we have people in both AA programs and CRNA programs.

 

[Yourmother]

Well I am 21 year old college junior trying to get my first degree.

I could graduate on time and do 1 year accelerated BSN, work for a year, and then enter a CRNA program, or graduate and then spend 2 solid years taking AA prereq courses and then the MCAT. For me, the CRNA is the much better and faster route. I left my biology degree because I saw no point in taking tons of hard science classes that I was no longer going to use once I decided against medical school. If I am going to take them and the MCAT and go to school for 2 years, might as well just become a doctor, in my mind.

One year of any sort of nursing and making money way beats two years of hard classes I tried to avoid and taking the MCAT.

But that is my opinion and that is why we have people in both AA programs and CRNA programs.

Besides, I like the nursing plan because you can do things in steps. There is also more flexibility than MD. Docs are locked into their speciality via residency.

A nurse is far more mobile.

 

[RAMPA]

That still doesn't make AA appealing to me. I would much rather do a 1 year accelerated BSN program and work for 1 year as an RN and make some cash than spend a ton of money to go back to school to take all those premedical courses and spend even more money to prep for and take the MCAT and then do the exact same job as a CRNA, only in less states.

lol, you and I are opposites. I will be graduating from RT school soon. I rather work in the ICU and take the premed courses part-time over 2yrs versus going back to school for an accelerated BSN. for one, id be in less debt and two, id make more $$$ as a RT versus being a nursing student next year.
although the bit about working in less states still sucks.

different strokes for different folks

good luck to you

 

[foreverLaur]

lol, you and I are opposites. I will be graduating from RT school soon. I rather work in the ICU and take the premed courses part-time over 2yrs versus going back to school for an accelerated BSN. for one, id be in less debt and two, id make more $$$ as a RT versus being a nursing student next year.
although the bit about working in less states still sucks.

different strokes for different folks

good luck to you

Well I would be in school full time. I would need:
1/2 a year of chem
1/2 a year of bio
1 year of organic chem
1/2 a year of physics
1 year of anatomy
1 year of physiology

And my degree doesn't allow me to work... any job... or make... any money...

So I guess it just depends on where you are in life and if you have the opportunity to work and make money with what you have. I don't.

 

[deleted6669]

lol, you and I are opposites. I will be graduating from RT school soon. I rather work in the ICU and take the premed courses part-time over 2yrs versus going back to school for an accelerated BSN. for one, id be in less debt and two, id make more $$$ as a RT versus being a nursing student next year.
although the bit about working in less states still sucks.

different strokes for different folks

good luck to you

rampa- have you thought about doing pa and aa? there is a pa to aa bridge now so you could do both in less than 4 yrs(around 3.5 I think). dual cert pa/aa or np/crna make big bucks as they can work anywhere in the hospital and cover critical care outside of the o.r.
folks I know who do this work 40 hrs/week at 180k+ to start in major metropolitan areas as opposed to those 200k crna jobs in BFE we hear so much about.....

 

[collegefootball]

Thank you so much for the advice... to everyone.

My parents always rag on me that I am 21 years old and still nowhere close to having a career where all of my friends and other people from my high school graduating class are.

You need to learn how to say "screw you" in your mind when people to talk you like this. I didn't start college until 2003 (graduated high school in 2000). I will be graduating this year with a biology degree. I didn't start college until 3 years out of high school because I didn't know what to do with myself. So I finally figured out what to do. It has taken me until now to finish the degree. My cGPA is ok, but average, so I may need to do more schooling while working (I will apply for clinical research associate jobs).

Every fricken holiday season I get asked by my family (mostly relatives) when I will be graduating. I have grown sick of this. I have even stoped going to family get togethers because it's the only thing I keep getting asked. My wife told me I just had to say screw them and focus on MYSELF. This is what you need to do. You need to focus on what you want and what it will take for you to reach it.

I already have a plan B,C,D,E, and F planed out if I don't get into any graduate program in the field I want to go into. So I will apply the following year if I don't get in this year.

I think it would be good for your to get your nursing degree, by any type of program it may be, and work as a nurse for a year or two to make some money and to refresh yourself from the tough world of academia and then move toward your next goal.

You only live once!!!!

I really dislike it when people say I'm to old or to young to do something. There are several adult students where I go to undergraduate school. I like to be friends with these people more so then the 18,19, and 20 year olds because their life experience is so interesting.

You will have a better story to tell in the future if you take your time to go down the process of what you want to do then finish the degree and work some paper pusher job and then go back to school.

Some days I freak out because I will be turning 27 this summer and some days I just have to deal with it and do what I want. I need to keep reminding myself that in another 27 years I will only be 54 and still have a good 20 years of work life left. I hope to work until the day I die.

You are only 21. You are so young. If you need to spend another year, or even two, to get down the path that you want, then do it. You have a good 60+ years of work life left. Do something that will make you happy and make a difference in this world.

I have one friend that is a year older then me and lives in their own apartment (I keep getting asked at family get togethers when I will have my own place...very annoying) and already has a B.S. degree, M.S. degree, and is working on another B.S. degree.

I have a speech professor that took several years of between her B.S. degree to make some money before getting her Ph.D. She was about 38 years old when she finished her Ph.D. She is the smartest person I have ever meet. Some of the most dumb people I have ever meet (with a so called education) are the ones that go directly to college right out of high school and graduate in 4 years or less and get an office job (usually a manager job). Most of the brighest people I know have worked between degrees and took longer then the usual track to finish their degrees.

 

[foreverLaur]

Well for starts my parents are paying for four years of my college education so i'd like to finish my bachelors degree while they are stlil paying.

I went to college because I did know what I wanted to do and I received a scholarship to do it. I did it for two years and received a full time job offer from Ernst & Young and worked there. I wasn't happy and I missed being in the hospital with my mom (a nurse) and spent my evenings and weekends volunteering at a hospital (while working at E&Y). I fell in love with it and decided to pursue a health care career.

 

[Northerner]

...I would much rather do a 1 year accelerated BSN program and work for 1 year as an RN and make some cash than spend a ton of money to go back to school to take all those premedical courses and spend even more money to prep for and take the MCAT and then do the exact same job as a CRNA, only in less states.

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist.

I never said it did. I am not going to medical school so obviously I am never going to be an anesthesiologist. I'd rather be a CRNA if that was the medical specialty I desired anyways.

Am I missing something?

 

[foreverLaur]

Am I missing something?

yes you are. the AA program in my state requires:

1 year of biology
1 year of chemistry
1 year of organic chemistry
1 year of calculus
1 year of anatomy
1 year of physiology
1/2 a year of biochemistry
a 20+ on the MCAT

Those are all the classes required for medical school and more plus the test required to medical school. However, they are for an AA program. If I was going to forgo one more year of cheap school and one year of making money working in an ICU for two solid years of premedical courses plus the MCAT, I'd rather just go to medical school than do a two year AA program.

For where I am in my life, the CRNA route is much easier, less expensive, and quicker than doing an AA program. You end up in the same job making the same money anyways and, for right now, CRNAs can practice in all 50 states where AAs cannot.

 

[Northerner]

yes you are. the AA program in my state requires:

1 year of biology
1 year of chemistry
1 year of organic chemistry
1 year of calculus
1 year of anatomy
1 year of physiology
1/2 a year of biochemistry
a 20+ on the MCAT

Those are all the classes required for medical school and more plus the test required to medical school. However, they are for an AA program. If I was going to forgo one more year of cheap school and one year of making money working in an ICU for two solid years of premedical courses plus the MCAT, I'd rather just go to medical school than do a two year AA program.

For where I am in my life, the CRNA route is much easier, less expensive, and quicker than doing an AA program. You end up in the same job making the same money anyways and, for right now, CRNAs can practice in all 50 states where AAs cannot.

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist. AA does not equal anesthesiologist.

 

[foreverLaur]

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist. AA does not equal anesthesiologist.

well OBVIOUSLY. you'd have to be an idiot to think that MD = MSN or something similar.

I am saying that the requirements to get into an AA program = requirements to get into medical school.

Therefore, if I was going to spend two years after college taking those prerequisite courses, I would rather apply to medical school and go into surgery than enter an AA program.

However, I do not want to take those courses, I do not want to spend the time/money taking two more years of science courses and I am therefore pursuing the CRNA route.

 

[RAMPA]

CRNA does not equal anesthesiologist. AA does not equal anesthesiologist.

when she wrote "You end up in the same job making the same money anyways" she meant CRNA pretty much equals AA... not MD = CRNA/AA

 

[Northerner]

when she wrote "You end up in the same job making the same money anyways" she meant CRNA pretty much equals AA... not MD = CRNA/AA

Oh, I see. My mistake. Best of luck, Laura girl.

 

[foreverLaur]

when she wrote "You end up in the same job making the same money anyways" she meant CRNA pretty much equals AA... not MD = CRNA/AA

haha thanks. i'm glad someone understood what i was trying to say