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some of the thing said here made me wonder...

suppose that kid grow up one day to be our age and applying to pharmacy school.
how would he/she respond to your post? what would he/she say?

F$#% you, you wanted to put me through a meat grinder?
you want to poison me?

D^$n you for give me up to a stranger so you can go to school and have money.

It is the exact same thing I would say.

As soon as this thread came up I wondered how many posts it would take before the idealogues would start using this thread to attack a women's right to choose.

The answer is 47. Way to go pharm093, you win the prize.

Whats the meat grinder for? sloppy joes?

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That's terrible advice to someone who already said abortion wasn't an option. I wonder how many of the people saying abortion is the best option have ever been pregnant. I wonder how many are men.

Also, I don't think anyone said this to the OP yet: congratulations! There is no greater joy than being a parent, and that applies even to "unplanned" miracles.


Yes, I'll disclose that I am, in fact, male. I do not think that makes my opinion nor my advice totally disregardable.

Having taken several women's studies courses as electives, as well as several focused on women's health and abortion, I do actually feel a bit qualified to discuss this without having my opinion thrown out because of my gender.

That said, I think my advice stands - in her position, despite my parents' religious beliefs and my own upbringing, I don't think I'd be able to handle pregnancy or a child and be successful in school.

And I espoused a belief in emphasizing what's best for both the OP and her child, not just one or the other.

For certain, success stories exist about teenage mothers who overcame the difficulty. I don't know of anyone who's claimed that they're a majority by any stretch.

So, OP, consider all options, not just the extremist positions.
- abortion
- adoption
- a commitment from yours/the baby's father's parents to raise the child for three years (not an option for most people, who's parents are probably working themselves)
- attempting to succeed at school while taking care of the child or paying for a nanny/nursery.

And, as before, good luck with your decision.

Also, pharm093, for your information, ru486 (aka mifepristone) is a pill that induces an abortion in early pregnancies (I'm not certain the exact time period, but I think first trimester is approximately correct). There are no 'meat grinders' involved. Ignorance like yours is insulting, and quite shocking to hear from a medical professional or future medical professional.
 
As soon as this thread came up I wondered how many posts it would take before the idealogues would start using this thread to attack a women's right to choose.

The answer is 47. Way to go pharm093, you win the prize.

Whats the meat grinder for? sloppy joes?

what is the meat grinder?
go and learn how an abortion is performed. they use a device with high suction and sharp edges, they will carve the tiny human body up and suck it out in a tube. Afterwards they will use a clap to crush the skull, so that it can be easily remove. They will even have a scoop, to go in and scrap the lining of the uterus to removing the left over.

If i found out that a random person advice my mom for abortion, I would say "f52k off motherf$#K$#"

You would say the same thing
 
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what is the meat grinder?
go and learn how an abortion is performed. they use a device with high suction and sharp edges, they will carve the tiny human body up and suck it out in a tube. Afterwards they will use a clap to crush the skull, so that it can be easily remove.

If i found out that a random person advice my mom for abortion, I would say "f52k off motherf$#K$#"

You would say the same thing

Umm... actually, I wouldn't. If any one of our parents had chosen a slightly different time to have sex than the time they did, we wouldn't be here today.

And I've said this before, but I have a friend whose mother did choose an abortion when the mother was in college. If my friend's mom had not had that abortion, her life would have been different (whether she had ended up having a later miscarriage, had given the resulting baby up for adoption, or had kept the baby). If any of these had happened, my friend most likely would not be here today, nor her brother.

So, if abortion had been illegal, I may never have met a very good friend of mine. My life would have been different and most likely lacking.
 
Umm... actually, I wouldn't. If any one of our parents had chosen a slightly different time to have sex than the time they did, we wouldn't be here today.

And I've said this before, but I have a friend whose mother did choose an abortion when the mother was in college. If my friend's mom had not had that abortion, her life would have been different (whether she had ended up having a later miscarriage, had given the resulting baby up for adoption, or had kept the baby). If any of these had happened, my friend most likely would not be here today, nor her brother.

So, if abortion had been illegal, I may never have met a very good friend of mine. My life would have been different and most likely lacking.

I am sorry, but I can't understand your writting very well.

if your friend's mother did had an abortion, how did you have a friend?
and
how it is that "if abortion had been illegal, I would never met a very good friend of mine. My life would have been different and most likely lacking"?

maybe you mean with another kid
 
I am sorry, but I can't understand your writting very well.

if your friend's mother did had an abortion, how did you have a friend?
and
how it is that "if abortion had been illegal, I would never met a very good friend of mine. My life would have been different and most likely lacking"?


exactly I read the post like 3 times and I couldn't make head or tail of it.
 
My friend's mother had an abortion in college. She then went on to meet my friend's dad. They got married and had my friend and my friend's brother.

So, if my friend's mother had not had that abortion in college, my friend's mother's life most likely would have been completely different. She might not have met my friend's dad, meaning my friend and her brother never would have been born.
 
exactly I read the post like 3 times and I couldn't make head or tail of it.

I get what Farscape is saying - She and I speak the same crazy language.

She is saying that because her friend's mother chose to have an abortion in college (Probably to avert an unplanned pregnancy), she ended up having a child after college, which turns out to be Farscape's friend.

Farscape is arguing that, had the abortion never occurred, the mom of this friend may never have graduated school (or graduated later, etc etc) and thus, never would've brought her friend into this world.

She is not saying that she is friends with an aborted fetus, or something.

I really have been abstaining from this thread but it's incomprehensible to me to think that someone is going to attempt to be a parent while spending hundreds of hours a week studying for, and attending, a rigorous professional medical program like pharmacy.

Can she do it, sure. And will she be either short-changing herself or short-changing her child? Definitely.

I agree with Desmoulins - If abortion's absolutely not an option, which obviously it is not, consider adoption! You can even contract with the county to have your baby given directly from birth to a receiving family so you never have to bear the stress of developing more of an attachment to the newborn. Is it a perfect system? No... nothing is.

And I'll just leave it at that and urge you to practice safer sex next time you hop in the sack with your fellow student-boyfriend so you don't end up needing to provide for two kids.
 
She and I speak the same crazy language.

She is saying that because her friend's mother chose to have an abortion in college (Probably to avert an unplanned pregnancy), she ended up having a child after college, which turns out to be Farscape's friend.

Farscape is arguing that, had the abortion never occurred, the mom of this friend may never have graduated school (or graduated later, etc etc) and thus, never would've brought her friend into this world.

Do you know how may maybe's are invovled in this scenerio, we could also assume that may be her friends mom would still have met her friends dad and instead of one sibiling she would have two... we must'nt always assume the negative scenerio will play out.

She is not saying that she is friends with an aborted fetus, or something.

LOL:D

I really have been abstaining from this thread but it's incomprehensible to me to think that someone is going to attempt to be a parent while spending hundreds of hours a week studying for, and attending, a rigorous professional medical program like pharmacy.

Can she do it, sure. And will she be either short-changing herself or short-changing her child? Definitely.

I agree with Desmoulins - If abortion's absolutely not an option, which obviously it is not, consider adoption! You can even contract with the county to have your baby given directly from birth to a receiving family so you never have to bear the stress of developing more of an attachment to the newborn. Is it a perfect system? No... nothing is.

I have nothing against adoption but, if she is considering adoption why not give the baby to the grandparents or willing family members? If she does this, its not like she will fall of the face of the earth, she still gets to see the baby, be involved in the child's life and make decisions concerning the child. This ia also an assumption but if she didnt consider abortion she might also not consider adoption.(diclaimer:I am not saying the two are equal)

And I'll just leave it at that and urge you to practice safer sex next time you hop in the sack with your fellow student-boyfriend so you don't end up needing to provide for two kids.[/QUOTE]
 
You'll be fine, at worst, you might not make straight A's. Maybe you'll get a few C's. My friend had a baby the first week of spring semester and it was stressful but she's still in and doing just fine. Think of it this way, you need to support this baby so you may as well start down the road to a good career now! Student loans are pretty generous so you should be able to afford it.
 
Your point is valid; that is, why use adoption instead of letting family take care of the child until she is ready to take the child back into her care.

My rebuttal is this: If she is irresponsible enough to have unprotected sex or otherwise not take proper precautions to account for her sexual intercourse, then she is going to be an irresponsible parent.

I am 27 years old and have had a handful of sexual partners since I became sexually active when I was 17. I am married, and my wife and I still practice barrier method intercourse in addition to her Depo-Provera. ACK! You're screaming, omg, why are you telling me this?

Well, because I practice what I preach. I do not want a child interfering with my schooling or my wife's schooling, so a little sexual pleasure is sacrificed in turn for that security, and this is known as responsibility.

We do not know if OP made her boyfriend wear a condom and whether she was on a pill of some sort or what have you, the chance is so incredibly low of both methods of birth control failing, you might as well play the lottery because you are the luckiest/unluckiest person on the planet. If OP was a responsible human being, this unplanned pregnancy would not have occurred.

Like TAP says.... Reproduction isn't exactly rocket surgery you know? Penis + vagina = kid, at its simplest form.

OP would not be seeking help from an internet forum about PARENTING if she had either a good head on her shoulders or a strong support system to help her through this crisis.

Thus, why I suggested adoption.
 
You'll be fine, at worst, you might not make straight A's. Maybe you'll get a few C's. My friend had a baby the first week of spring semester and it was stressful but she's still in and doing just fine. Think of it this way, you need to support this baby so you may as well start down the road to a good career now! Student loans are pretty generous so you should be able to afford it.

Yeah, student loans are awesome for stuff like supporting unplanned pregnancies, new car parts, and trips to the Fiji Islands.

The entitlement of people in this country to money drives me up the damn wall.
 
You'll be fine, at worst, you might not make straight A's. Maybe you'll get a few C's. My friend had a baby the first week of spring semester and it was stressful but she's still in and doing just fine. Think of it this way, you need to support this baby so you may as well start down the road to a good career now! Student loans are pretty generous so you should be able to afford it.

The problem with this is that some schools do not accept C's. Some schools may make you retake any class that you get below a B-. This means that you not only have to retake classes, but also cannot take other classes that the class was a pre-requisite for. This can put off graduation for a year. Worse, the school may kick you out if you continually get Cs.

It depends on if the OP can handle a full course load with a child and how good the OP is with multitasking and studying in less than optimal conditions (crying baby, getting interrupted, etc.). I personally couldn't handle that but some people could handle that without any problem.
 
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You'll be fine, at worst, you might not make straight A's. Maybe you'll get a few C's. My friend had a baby the first week of spring semester and it was stressful but she's still in and doing just fine. Think of it this way, you need to support this baby so you may as well start down the road to a good career now! Student loans are pretty generous so you should be able to afford it.
I think you can make C's in pharmacy school right? I mean C is basically passing. It might not look good on transcript, but C is passing.
 
Your point is valid; that is, why use adoption instead of letting family take care of the child until she is ready to take the child back into her care.

My rebuttal is this: If she is irresponsible enough to have unprotected sex or otherwise not take proper precautions to account for her sexual intercourse, then she is going to be an irresponsible parent.

I am 27 years old and have had a handful of sexual partners since I became sexually active when I was 17. I am married, and my wife and I still practice barrier method intercourse in addition to her Depo-Provera. ACK! You're screaming, omg, why are you telling me this?

Well, because I practice what I preach. I do not want a child interfering with my schooling or my wife's schooling, so a little sexual pleasure is sacrificed in turn for that security, and this is known as responsibility.

We do not know if OP made her boyfriend wear a condom and whether she was on a pill of some sort or what have you, the chance is so incredibly low of both methods of birth control failing, you might as well play the lottery because you are the luckiest/unluckiest person on the planet. If OP was a responsible human being, this unplanned pregnancy would not have occurred.

Like TAP says.... Reproduction isn't exactly rocket surgery you know? Penis + vagina = kid, at its simplest form.

OP would not be seeking help from an internet forum about PARENTING if she had either a good head on her shoulders or a strong support system to help her through this crisis.

Thus, why I suggested adoption.

Let us not be too harsh on the OP, this is a stressful time in her life and she definately doesn't need us telling her all the things she did wrong, chances are, she figured them out already. Whether or Not OP used precaution is not the point because, as u said she might have been lucky/ or unlucky, what she needs now is advice for moving foward. Afterall we do not konw what form of precautions she used so we cannot automatically asume that she is irresponsible. My point is grant her the benefit of the doubt...
 
Your point is valid; that is, why use adoption instead of letting family take care of the child until she is ready to take the child back into her care.

My rebuttal is this: If she is irresponsible enough to have unprotected sex or otherwise not take proper precautions to account for her sexual intercourse, then she is going to be an irresponsible parent.

I am 27 years old and have had a handful of sexual partners since I became sexually active when I was 17. I am married, and my wife and I still practice barrier method intercourse in addition to her Depo-Provera. ACK! You're screaming, omg, why are you telling me this?

Well, because I practice what I preach. I do not want a child interfering with my schooling or my wife's schooling, so a little sexual pleasure is sacrificed in turn for that security, and this is known as responsibility.

We do not know if OP made her boyfriend wear a condom and whether she was on a pill of some sort or what have you, the chance is so incredibly low of both methods of birth control failing, you might as well play the lottery because you are the luckiest/unluckiest person on the planet. If OP was a responsible human being, this unplanned pregnancy would not have occurred.

Like TAP says.... Reproduction isn't exactly rocket surgery you know? Penis + vagina = kid, at its simplest form.

OP would not be seeking help from an internet forum about PARENTING if she had either a good head on her shoulders or a strong support system to help her through this crisis.

Thus, why I suggested adoption.

I agree with some of your points, Passion4Sci, but I'm not sure the OP is as irresponsible as you are saying.

I do think it's a valid point that the absolute best way to still have sex but not have an unwanted child is to use two forms of birth control. However, it's still pretty responsible to at least use one form of birth control. It's something like 86% of women that get pregnant within a year when they don't use birth control. The OP may just be more fertile than your typical woman.

And I'm also hoping the OP is discussing this problem on more places than just this forum, but people who have had children recently while in pharm school are probably helpful to ask advice from. Although it might have been better to post this in the pharm section, rather than the pre-pharm section...

I just want the OP to make the best decision for herself and the one that she'll least regret. To the OP, your situation does sound a bit unstable to raise a kid in, with a boyfriend far away and about to enter pharm school. If you really are against abortion, you really might want to talk to the potential grandparents and/or consider adoption. In making your decision, I'd think about how have you handled stresses in your academic career so far. Pregnancy can be very hard on a woman or very easy, but caring for a newborn is beyond difficult for every parent.
 
There is no greater joy than being a parent, and that applies even to "unplanned" miracles.
Let's get one thing straight right now: getting pregnant is not a miracle.
 
Let us not be too harsh on the OP, this is a stressful time in her life and she definately doesn't need us telling her all the things she did wrong, chances are, she figured them out already. Whether or Not OP used precaution is not the point because, as u said she might have been lucky/ or unlucky, what she needs now is advice for moving foward. Afterall we do not konw what form of precautions she used so we cannot automatically asume that she is irresponsible. My point is grant her the benefit of the doubt...


eek! I just found out that I am preganant! No, This is not planned.

Italicized for emphasis.

Irresponsibility breeds itself. Let the child go to a home where he or she will have at least the slight chance to grow up free of being raised by someone who can't even understand simple biology. Like I said before, penis + vagina = kid. The easiest equation we ever had to solve for, isn't it?

I respectfully disagree with you, we could probably argue in circles for hours but i don't think we're going to change each others' minds.
 
Italicized for emphasis.

Irresponsibility breeds itself. Let the child go to a home where he or she will have at least the slight chance to grow up free of being raised by someone who can't even understand simple biology. Like I said before, penis + vagina = kid. The easiest equation we ever had to solve for, isn't it?

I respectfully disagree with you, we could probably argue in circles for hours but i don't think we're going to change each others' minds.


oh its all good, I am done with finals so I am aimlessly hanging aroung SDN because i dont have a life.... so u we could go round and round.... :laugh:
 
I think you can make C's in pharmacy school right? I mean C is basically passing. It might not look good on transcript, but C is passing.

according to the university at buffalo:
If a student is found to be academically deficient (as determined by the Committee), the Committee may take one or more of the following actions. The student may be:
a) Instructed to repeat a course or courses in a required sequence where a barely passing grade (C- ) was obtained or to take additional course(s) in order to strengthen the student's background. If a student receives two C's (includes C+) in a required pharmacy sequence (e.g. BCP 511-512; PHM 311 and PHC 312, PHC 531-534;PHM 315-316; PHM 531, 532, PHM 510, 511, 512, 513) the student will be required to repeat that sequence with a grade of “B-” or better.
obviously all schools are different and some may be more strict than others. It really depends on what school the OP is going to. Also, the OP may have no trouble keeping good grades while bin pregnant or when the baby is born. It depends on the OP
 
OP was irresponsible and ended up with problems that she doesn't want to deal with. That's just life, she's gonna have to pay for it now.

I would say an abortion would make her remember to always use birth control from now on. It's just not fair to the baby to have only a single full time student as a parent.
 
Of all things happening in this thread, the one thing that shouldn't be happening is people trying to pass judgment on the merits or demerits of abortion. The original poster explicitly stated that abortion was not an option, and when someone brought up the suggestion of abortion, the refutation of that argument sure as hell should have been confined to the fact that abortion was not an option for the original poster.

Of course, I'm sure someone will argue that this was inevitable.... While I certainly have my own opinions on the matter, it would be nice to see some empathy to temper some of these responses going around.

--Garfield3d
 
I'm a bit dissapointed with many of these reactions. Here is my original post. Don't pay attention to these negative remarks. No one knows the feeling unless they have been there and I most certainly have.

Believe me!!! If I can do it, so can you. I was pregnant with twins!!! I gave birth last year during the spring semester. It was a very heavy load. 17 credit hours if pure science and calculus and studying for the PCAT. Still was in school when they were born. Not only that but with the twins, that made five children! Went to the summer semester and haven't stopped. Now here I am on my way to my P1 year. It's definitely not easy. Not easy at all. I see my five children as my motivation for success. Please PM me if you have any questions or need advice. I am a very open person so don't me afraid to ask any questions. One good thing....your morning sickness will be over before you begin the semester. LOL. By the way, did I mention I am a single mother? You can do it!
 
This thread has been hijacked. I feel sorry for the OP, who can no longer get reasonable advice from us but must instead listen to us have an idealogical debate on abortion. And we're never going to change each other's minds about it, either. Sorry Jenny. I hope you got enough input before we drove the train off the tracks.
 
Let's get one thing straight right now: getting pregnant is not a miracle.

With your tone and negativity towards pregnancy, im guessing youve been knocked up :uhno:
 
This thread has been hijacked. I feel sorry for the OP, who can no longer get reasonable advice from us but must instead listen to us have an idealogical debate on abortion. And we're never going to change each other's minds about it, either. Sorry Jenny. I hope you got enough input before we drove the train off the tracks.

The internet was never a good place to get reasonable advice. That's what counselors, parents, and other "real people" are for.
 
With your tone and negativity towards pregnancy, im guessing youve been knocked up :uhno:
My tone was towards unwanted pregnancies. I'm happy for girls and women when they get pregnant and want to be. But pregnancy is never miraculous; it can be explained thoroughly by science, and it's not unusual. Unless there is some other definition of miracle I'm missing then it can't be miraculous.
 
Italicized for emphasis.

Irresponsibility breeds itself. Let the child go to a home where he or she will have at least the slight chance to grow up free of being raised by someone who can't even understand simple biology. Like I said before, penis + vagina = kid. The easiest equation we ever had to solve for, isn't it?

I respectfully disagree with you, we could probably argue in circles for hours but i don't think we're going to change each others' minds.

Even if the OP doesn't use condoms or birth control, she could have always just use the Plan B pill....This situation could have easily been avoided.
 
OP was irresponsible and ended up with problems that she doesn't want to deal with. That's just life, she's gonna have to pay for it now.

I would say an abortion would make her remember to always use birth control from now on. It's just not fair to the baby to have only a single full time student as a parent.

I agree 100%. Its my point exactly. If I was the baby I would NOT want to be born with parents that can't afford to provide for me finanically. Not to mention the lack of attention and care. A baby needs parents that are married, finaincially stable, etc. The OP obviously cannot provide it.
 
The topic of the thread isn't, "Should I consider abortion?". It really is unnecessary for for the conversation to go towards that direction.
 
Congratulations!

Also... apparently a lot of people missed the part where the OP said "abortion is not an option" because there are an awful lot of abortion suggestions... wtf?
 
Some of the posters in this thread are being way harsh, and I wonder how many of you guys are parents in pharm school yourselves. The OP definitely has an uphill battle, but it is all up to her and her own personal motivation. The only thing that I find a little disturbing is the unhappy face in the thread title.

To the OP - do you want to be a parent? I only ask because of your frowney face. I guess adoption is always an option if you are not ready. If you do really want to have a baby, get your support system in place! Hopefully you will have a lot of help. Start looking for a daycare now if you are going to need it. My school also has backup childcare and sick childcare, which is something you might want to look into at your school (little kids in daycare get sick a lot). Good luck -I'm sure it will not be easy if you are going to deliver during school in a three year program, but like I said it is really up to you and your own personal motivation. Don't let the people in this thread make you feel bad. Being a parent is the most rewarding thing I have experienced in this lifetime. Stay strong for yourself and your baby! :luck::luck::luck:
 
An ex got herself pregnant after we stopped going out (wasn't mine). She had a promising future, now she's on welfare and deluded into thinking she is a great mother to her children. The kids don't have a father because he hightailed it into the army the moment her heard and he's been overseas for the bulk of the child's life. She thinks she's a great mother, but in fact, she can't do it without welfare and her abusive, alcoholic mother helping out sometimes. I think "God is giving her more than she can handle".

The last message I got from her was one written while she was severely depressed, telling me how sorry she was. Not for me, great girl, but I moved on to better.
 
Yeah, student loans are awesome for stuff like...trips to the Fiji Islands.

Fiji? Seriously? Sounds like a good plan, let's go! Mojitos for everybody!

To the OP...you can do it. Having a kid, much like any other obligation that comes up in pharmacy school, will make your schedule more hectic, but if you make proper arrangements with your school and have the right mindset, you can do it. It's all about your perspective on things. To quote an old cliche-"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."

I've seen girls who got pregnant in school (either high school or college) and ended up dropping out. Don't rush to categorize yourself as that, because those girls weren't going to succeed one way or another. Most of them probably knew that, but once they got knocked up, they stopped trying to kid themselves. If you've made it this far, you've got a good head on your shoulders. It will be challenging, but I'm sure that three years from now, you'll also look back on it and find it very rewarding. Best of luck to you.
 
Just abort. Babies are very easy to make so you can always make one when you're ready.

Human life should be regarded higher than what you are stating here. If you do not believe that, why are you wanting to become a doctor?
 
As soon as this thread came up I wondered how many posts it would take before the idealogues would start using this thread to attack a women's right to choose.

The answer is 47. Way to go pharm093, you win the prize.

Whats the meat grinder for? sloppy joes?

I wonder if by me claiming this thread would turn into an idealogue crapfest I initiated a series of events which would indeed turn this thread into an idealogue crapfest, thus completing a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Thats right, I just blew everyone's minds. I am effectively quitting pharmacy and signing up as a writer for Lost. I am a freaking genius.
 
I agree 100%. Its my point exactly. If I was the baby I would NOT want to be born with parents that can't afford to provide for me finanically. Not to mention the lack of attention and care. A baby needs parents that are married, finaincially stable, etc. The OP obviously cannot provide it.

Seriously? You'd rather be dead if your parents were poor or your mom was single? That is freaking ignorant and degrading to anyone on here born to parents who weren't married or rich. :smack:

OP- I think it's pretty honorable that you don't want to abort your baby. I also think pharmacy school is going to be darn near impossible without some kind of support system at home. Daycares usually won't take babies until they are 6 weeks old so since you are giving birth in the middle of a semester you would have to take 6 weeks off or find someone to watch the baby. Then your baby goes to daycare all day, you still need to study when you get home but the baby needs fed, changed, bathed, held, rocked. You need someone there to help you with those things. Plus if you are living alone there is laundry, cleaning, grocery shopping... Talk to your parents. See what you can work out.
 
Seriously? You'd rather be dead if your parents were poor or your mom was single? That is freaking ignorant and degrading to anyone on here born to parents who weren't married or rich. :smack:

I'm so surprised - on a forum of people who supposedly are intelligent and do well in a bunch of science classes, I'd have expected a bit better. Cells die on a massive scale everyday. What about your skin? oh oh! Don't scratch your skin - You're killing cells! What to do, what to do??? What about periods? Everytime a girl has a period, that is another "human life" that is dead. Or every time a guy masturbates? There goes THOUSANDS of possible 'yous.' They are all dying. What are you going to do about it?

I agree that after a couple of months, the fetus is capable of thought and learning, and at that point, abortion is not an option unless under certain excruciating circumstances. But when it is just a massive clump of cells that isn't even a real body, I see little difference between aborting in the first trimester and having your period. After all, spontaneous abortions happen all the time naturally in your body - this is a way to protect you, the baby and civilization. It protects you from raising a child with severe defects and problems, it protects the baby from having to live such a life, and it saves the gene pool of that. I know it sounds harsh, but that's survival of the fittest - Darwin at its best. What is then so wrong with aborting for environmental reasons: you cannot provide the baby with the best environment. If you HAD to raise a baby, you should raise it in the best environment possible, with your full attention. A baby is not an impulsive decision. We are not hamsters, where babies mature in a month's span, and they run off to the wild to live by themselves. Babies require at LEAST a 16 year dedication. You cannot raise EVERY sperm and egg you have in your body. If you are to raise one, I see no problem with trying to raise one in the best environment for the baby.

If it came down to it, I would have no qualms with my mom choosing aborting me if it meant she could not raise me well or other circumstances. I would not want my mom to drop out of high school or college to raise me not-well. There are so many unwanted children in the world already - why add to the world's problems? Not only that, there is already an overpopulation issue. If it came down to it, yes, I say abort the fetus. Instead of using the efforts to half-assedly raise 5 unaborted children, raise 1 child very well.

That aside, I understand the OP said abortion is not an option. I respect other people to decide what they want on their own personal moral standards, I just wanted to say a couple of points regarding the abortion argument.

To the OP: I myself would not undergo school and pregnancy at the same time - I know what I am capable of and I do not want to do that. However, if you believe you can, then you should go for it. Optimally would have been not to put yourself in such a position. If you don't think you can manage both, you have to reconsider your options: which is more important, having and spending time with your baby or pharmacy school? if you can juggle these two things, but push came to shove, you have to decide which prioritizes first. I suggest, as other people have, getting a strong support system, one that you know you can count on. I wish you the best of luck with everything.
 
I'm so surprised - on a forum of people who supposedly are intelligent and do well in a bunch of science classes, I'd have expected a bit better. Cells die on a massive scale everyday. What about your skin? oh oh! Don't scratch your skin - You're killing cells! What to do, what to do??? What about periods? Everytime a girl has a period, that is another "human life" that is dead. Or every time a guy masturbates? There goes THOUSANDS of possible 'yous.' They are all dying. What are you going to do about it?

I agree that after a couple of months, the fetus is capable of thought and learning, and at that point, abortion is not an option unless under certain excruciating circumstances. But when it is just a massive clump of cells that isn't even a real body, I see little difference between aborting in the first trimester and having your period. After all, spontaneous abortions happen all the time naturally in your body - this is a way to protect you, the baby and civilization. It protects you from raising a child with severe defects and problems, it protects the baby from having to live such a life, and it saves the gene pool of that. I know it sounds harsh, but that's survival of the fittest - Darwin at its best. What is then so wrong with aborting for environmental reasons: you cannot provide the baby with the best environment. If you HAD to raise a baby, you should raise it in the best environment possible, with your full attention. A baby is not an impulsive decision. We are not hamsters, where babies mature in a month's span, and they run off to the wild to live by themselves. Babies require at LEAST a 16 year dedication. You cannot raise EVERY sperm and egg you have in your body. If you are to raise one, I see no problem with trying to raise one in the best environment for the baby.

If it came down to it, I would have no qualms with my mom choosing aborting me if it meant she could not raise me well or other circumstances. I would not want my mom to drop out of high school or college to raise me not-well. There are so many unwanted children in the world already - why add to the world's problems? Not only that, there is already an overpopulation issue. If it came down to it, yes, I say abort the fetus, and use the efforts to half-assedly raise 5 children to raise 1 child very well.

That aside, I understand the OP said abortion is not an option. I respect other people to decide what they want on their own personal moral standards, I just wanted to say a couple of points regarding the abortion argument.

To the OP: I myself would not undergo school and pregnancy at the same time - I know what I am capable of and I do not want to do that. However, if you believe you can, then you should go for it. Optimally would have been not to put yourself in such a position. If you don't think you can manage both, you have to reconsider your options: which is more important, having and spending time with your baby or pharmacy school? if you can juggle these two things, but push came to shove, you have to decide which prioritizes first. I suggest, as other people have, getting a strong support system, one that you know you can count on. I wish you the best of luck with everything.
Don't be surprised. It only takes a few minutes of searching around the forums to read the hypocrisy, from how to get into school, to how to make an application and PR look good, to ranking the different types of med schools. Do you really think the selective views and hypocrisy would end there?
 
Point of correction, this thread has now officially become about abortion what a shame.

PS: the problem with the skin/ period/ masturbation argument is that an egg or sperm on its own is not life, an embryo according to some is life so you cannot equate mensturation and masturbation to abortion. Look at this analogy if you have materials to build a house and they got burnt in a fire, you cant claim you lost a house though the materials could very well have become a house or was going to be used to build a house.(I think the insurance company would accuse you of fraud). So based on this line of reasoning an egg or a sperm alone is not a baby though they do have to potential to become one, so you cannot claim each time a girl gets her period or a man masturbates they are "killing" a child!!!

I am not taking a side in the abortion debate, just thought I needed to point that out.
 
How about not turning this into a debate about abortion? Posters have a tendency to derail topics but I don't think this is the place to do so.
 
I'm so surprised - on a forum of people who supposedly are intelligent and do well in a bunch of science classes, I'd have expected a bit better. Cells die on a massive scale everyday. What about your skin? oh oh! Don't scratch your skin - You're killing cells! What to do, what to do??? What about periods? Everytime a girl has a period, that is another "human life" that is dead. Or every time a guy masturbates? There goes THOUSANDS of possible 'yous.' They are all dying. What are you going to do about it?

I agree that after a couple of months, the fetus is capable of thought and learning, and at that point, abortion is not an option unless under certain excruciating circumstances. But when it is just a massive clump of cells that isn't even a real body, I see little difference between aborting in the first trimester and having your period. After all, spontaneous abortions happen all the time naturally in your body - this is a way to protect you, the baby and civilization. It protects you from raising a child with severe defects and problems, it protects the baby from having to live such a life, and it saves the gene pool of that. I know it sounds harsh, but that's survival of the fittest - Darwin at its best. What is then so wrong with aborting for environmental reasons: you cannot provide the baby with the best environment. If you HAD to raise a baby, you should raise it in the best environment possible, with your full attention. A baby is not an impulsive decision. We are not hamsters, where babies mature in a month's span, and they run off to the wild to live by themselves. Babies require at LEAST a 16 year dedication. You cannot raise EVERY sperm and egg you have in your body. If you are to raise one, I see no problem with trying to raise one in the best environment for the baby.

If it came down to it, I would have no qualms with my mom choosing aborting me if it meant she could not raise me well or other circumstances. I would not want my mom to drop out of high school or college to raise me not-well. There are so many unwanted children in the world already - why add to the world's problems? Not only that, there is already an overpopulation issue. If it came down to it, yes, I say abort the fetus. Instead of using the efforts to half-assedly raise 5 unaborted children, raise 1 child very well.

That aside, I understand the OP said abortion is not an option. I respect other people to decide what they want on their own personal moral standards, I just wanted to say a couple of points regarding the abortion argument.

To the OP: I myself would not undergo school and pregnancy at the same time - I know what I am capable of and I do not want to do that. However, if you believe you can, then you should go for it. Optimally would have been not to put yourself in such a position. If you don't think you can manage both, you have to reconsider your options: which is more important, having and spending time with your baby or pharmacy school? if you can juggle these two things, but push came to shove, you have to decide which prioritizes first. I suggest, as other people have, getting a strong support system, one that you know you can count on. I wish you the best of luck with everything.

I'm going to chalk your post up to young and naive. It doesn't take much money to raise a child "well". It doesn't even take one or two parents because grandparents do it everyday. It takes love. If her parents are willing to help, then I think she will do fine.

Heck, I'll even throw a little science in for free. The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception (that is when a sperm and egg join not when you are playing buddy whackit alone in your room). That is five weeks after the last period which is probably 1 week after a girl finds out she's pregnant. At that point, the fetus is not just a clump of cells. It's a clump of cells with a heartbeat.
 
Point of correction, this thread has now officially become about abortion what a shame.

PS: the problem with the skin/ period/ masturbation argument is that an egg or sperm on its own is not life, an embryo according to some is life so you cannot equate mensturation and masturbation to abortion. Look at this analogy if you have materials to build a house and they got burnt in a fire, you cant claim you lost a house though the materials could very well have become a house or was going to be used to build a house.(I think the insurance company would accuse you of fraud). So based on this line of reasoning an egg or a sperm alone is not a baby though they do have to potential to become one, so you cannot claim each time a girl gets her period or a man masturbates they are "killing" a child!!!

Hi, have you taken intro to bio yet?

An egg or sperm is a cell. A cell, by definition, is a living thing. You just contradicted yourself.
 
I'm going to chalk your post up to young and naive. It doesn't take much money to raise a child "well". It doesn't even take one or two parents because grandparents do it everyday. It takes love. If her parents are willing to help, then I think she will do fine.

Heck, I'll even throw a little science in for free. The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception (that is when a sperm and egg join not when you are playing buddy whackit alone in your room). That is five weeks after the last period which is probably 1 week after a girl finds out she's pregnant. At that point, the fetus is not just a clump of cells. It's a clump of cells with a heartbeat.

1. I never said it was money, I said it was environment. I know you don't need much money - my parents were both poor graduate students who just moved from Korea, but they managed to raise me just fine. However, if you decided to have a child just because you didn't believe in abortion but did not actually want to raise a child (wanted to focus on school, career, etc) you are raising an unwanted child. I personally don't think that's the best environment for a child to grow up in - when a parent has grudges or bitter feelings and feels they could have gone out and done so much more but could not, because they were locked down by a child. In that way, I'm definitely agreeing with you - love goes a long way. But bitter grudges is not love - it is mere obligation and responsibility of not believing in abortion. If you didn't plan a child, there is a possibility you will hold these grudges against your child, and these grudges will show .... day after day, after month after month .... like I said, this is a long-time commitment.

Does this mean all parents are this way? Of course not! This doesn't even apply to all parents with unplanned pregnancies. I know that it is a frequent occurrence to love your unplanned child unconditionally. But it is also possible to raise an unwanted/unplanned child with bitter feelings I mentioned before ... and that is my point. It is better to have a child when you are completely ready for it, than not to. Abortion is an option for that.

Besides, I know this is slightly off topic, but if someone is irresponsible enough to get pregnant when they didn't want to, I am not sure if they would be responsible enough to raise a child, but that is in itself a different story. You can give all the love you want, but if you are not responsible enough, you cannot raise a child well.

2. There are different arguments about when a fetus is actually a human, and I admit, a slippery slope. It is not something I really want to go into detail about. I just wanted to mention that, for all these scientists and health specialists, many "lives" are lost in laboratories and drug-making experiments for their profession, whether these lives are just cells or actual animals with heartbeats. If you want to argue for life, I don't see why you stop at humans.
 
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I'm going to chalk your post up to young and naive. It doesn't take much money to raise a child "well". It doesn't even take one or two parents because grandparents do it everyday. It takes love. If her parents are willing to help, then I think she will do fine.

Heck, I'll even throw a little science in for free. The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception (that is when a sperm and egg join not when you are playing buddy whackit alone in your room). That is five weeks after the last period which is probably 1 week after a girl finds out she's pregnant. At that point, the fetus is not just a clump of cells. It's a clump of cells with a heartbeat.

Raising a child to the age of 18 cost approx 100K to 200K on average. And that is NOT including college tuition. :eek: I don't know about you but thats a lot of money you better be saving up.
 
2. There are different arguments about when a fetus is actually a human, and I admit, a slippery slope. It is not something I really want to go into detail about. I just wanted to mention that, for all these scientists and health specialists, many "lives" are lost in laboratories and drug-making experiments for their profession, whether these lives are just cells or actual animals with heartbeats. If you want to argue for life, I don't see why you stop at humans.

Whats the point of all this arguing anyway. Its not like anyone here is going to change my support for womens rights no more than I will change someones warped perception that a clump of cells is a tiny person with feelings. What drives me off the wall is that the same people that think aborting a clump of cells with a "heartbeat" is murder are the same group of people that have no problem executing ******ed people in Texas.
 
I'm so surprised - on a forum of people who supposedly are intelligent and do well in a bunch of science classes, I'd have expected a bit better. Cells die on a massive scale everyday. What about your skin? oh oh! Don't scratch your skin - You're killing cells! What to do, what to do??? What about periods? Everytime a girl has a period, that is another "human life" that is dead. Or every time a guy masturbates? There goes THOUSANDS of possible 'yous.' They are all dying. What are you going to do about it?

I agree that after a couple of months, the fetus is capable of thought and learning, and at that point, abortion is not an option unless under certain excruciating circumstances. But when it is just a massive clump of cells that isn't even a real body, I see little difference between aborting in the first trimester and having your period. After all, spontaneous abortions happen all the time naturally in your body - this is a way to protect you, the baby and civilization. It protects you from raising a child with severe defects and problems, it protects the baby from having to live such a life, and it saves the gene pool of that. I know it sounds harsh, but that's survival of the fittest - Darwin at its best. What is then so wrong with aborting for environmental reasons: you cannot provide the baby with the best environment. If you HAD to raise a baby, you should raise it in the best environment possible, with your full attention. A baby is not an impulsive decision. We are not hamsters, where babies mature in a month's span, and they run off to the wild to live by themselves. Babies require at LEAST a 16 year dedication. You cannot raise EVERY sperm and egg you have in your body. If you are to raise one, I see no problem with trying to raise one in the best environment for the baby.

If it came down to it, I would have no qualms with my mom choosing aborting me if it meant she could not raise me well or other circumstances. I would not want my mom to drop out of high school or college to raise me not-well. There are so many unwanted children in the world already - why add to the world's problems? Not only that, there is already an overpopulation issue. If it came down to it, yes, I say abort the fetus. Instead of using the efforts to half-assedly raise 5 unaborted children, raise 1 child very well.

That aside, I understand the OP said abortion is not an option. I respect other people to decide what they want on their own personal moral standards, I just wanted to say a couple of points regarding the abortion argument.

To the OP: I myself would not undergo school and pregnancy at the same time - I know what I am capable of and I do not want to do that. However, if you believe you can, then you should go for it. Optimally would have been not to put yourself in such a position. If you don't think you can manage both, you have to reconsider your options: which is more important, having and spending time with your baby or pharmacy school? if you can juggle these two things, but push came to shove, you have to decide which prioritizes first. I suggest, as other people have, getting a strong support system, one that you know you can count on. I wish you the best of luck with everything.

I agree, its better to wait and raise one child very well. (give him/her all the best in the world) Then to have a bunch of children and raise them like cattle. And YES, I too would rather not be born to irresponsible/non-finanically stable parents.
 
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