Husel Suing for $20M

[turkeyjerky]

Doctor acquitted in 14 patient deaths sues health system in Detroit

"A malicious prosecution case says that a person complains to the authorities for the purpose of getting you arrested and indicted, as opposed to good faith belief that you've done something wrong,"

Sounds about right. Good for him.

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[AlmostAnMD]

Was gonna make this topic but since mods got really weird about last one I didn't. Still unclear why that topic was locked, his story is far from over.

Glad someone else saw. Hope he wins. He was definitely thrown under the bus by Mount Carmel. Gonna be an uphill fight but I hope he wins. Unfortunately they don't televise civil trials.

 

[southerndoc]

Was gonna make this topic but since mods got really weird about last one I didn't. Still unclear why that topic was locked, his story is far from over.

Glad someone else saw. Hope he wins. He was definitely thrown under the bus by Mount Carmel. Gonna be an uphill fight but I hope he wins. Unfortunately they don't televise civil trials.

Don't remember, but probably because it became political. That's almost the reason for every thread being locked. Politics should be reserved for the lounge or sociopolitical forum.

 

[Apollyon]

Don't remember, but probably because it became political. That's almost the reason for every thread being locked. Politics should be reserved for the lounge or sociopolitical forum.

Wrong. No politics in the Lounge. It's crazy how this has been propagated for literal years by various mods (virtually all of whom have never visited the Lounge). And, if you don't already have a link to it, you can't find the Sociopolitical Forum, as it's not indexed. If anything, political topics should be routed to the "Off Topic" forum.

 

[Southpaw]

hope he gets every penny of the $20 mill for what they put him through

 

[Rekt]

Don't remember, but probably because it became political. That's almost the reason for every thread being locked. Politics should be reserved for the lounge or sociopolitical forum.

EM is the specialty affected by politics more than any other so it makes sense. It's not like there's much nuance to EM to talk about.

 

[RustedFox]

Wrong. No politics in the Lounge. It's crazy how this has been propagated for literal years by various mods (virtually all of whom have never visited the Lounge). And, if you don't already have a link to it, you can't find the Sociopolitical Forum, as it's not indexed. If anything, political topics should be routed to the "Off Topic" forum.

Who the hell goes anywhere on SDN but here?

I don't care what the proles in gen. pop have to say.

Buncha children.

 

[Southpaw]

EM is the specialty affected by politics more than any other so it makes sense. It's not like there's much nuance to EM to talk about.

Well I for one found the diarrhea thread to be quite exhilarating.

 

[southerndoc]

EM is the specialty affected by politics more than any other so it makes sense. It's not like there's much nuance to EM to talk about.

And @BoardingDoc and I have a lot of grace with allowing some politics, but when the thread turns majority political, then it gets locked or moved. I've previously moved them to the off-topics forum, but there can be some useful info in the thread so I've been leaving them lately.

@Apollyon Thanks for the correction.

I think going forward I'm going to move selected posts to the off-topic forum. Speaking of which, this thread is now off-topic. Let's reserve any future replies to those related to Husel's pending litigation.

 

[thegenius]

Doctor acquitted in 14 patient deaths sues health system in Detroit

"A malicious prosecution case says that a person complains to the authorities for the purpose of getting you arrested and indicted, as opposed to good faith belief that you've done something wrong,"

Sounds about right. Good for him.

Is this the guy who would give fentanyl 1000mcg and versed 10mg pushes for “palliative” care in the ICU?

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Don't remember, but probably because it became political. That's almost the reason for every thread being locked. Politics should be reserved for the lounge or sociopolitical forum.

Literally a topic about someone either providing palliative care or euthanizing them, depending on viewpoint

dissociating from politics is not possible or really even intellectually recommended

Site needs new mods imo

 

[GatorCHOMPions]

Literally a topic about someone either providing palliative care or euthanizing them, depending on viewpoint

dissociating from politics is not possible or really even intellectually recommended

Site needs new mods imo

It’s interesting to see how things are moderated in other places on SDN. I’ve been browsing and posting in the Pain one the last couple of years and there’s political jabs in many of the threads that go to the same limit or above than here. There are often personal attacks back and forth many times over. I bet closed threads exist there but I’ve never seen it.

EM is the specialty affected by politics more than any other so it makes sense. It's not like there's much nuance to EM to talk about.

Agree

 

[Apollyon]

Who the hell goes anywhere on SDN but here?

I don't care what the proles in gen. pop have to say.

Buncha children.

Birdstrike, for one (a specific thread in the Lounge). And, the Practicing Physicians forum is good. In general, the further you go down the main page, the more patrician it becomes.

As to Husel, one truism - everyone is smeared. He was acquitted criminally, but, the defendants will dig up any and everything they can.

 

[Birdstrike]

Is this the guy who would give fentanyl 1000mcg and versed 10mg pushes for “palliative” care in the ICU?

Yes. It's no slam dunk that he wins. This civil suit is not just a matter of saying, "Look, I wasn't convicted. So there." For starters, being found "not guilty" does not equal being "proven innocent." Secondly, he has to prove that they maliciously fired him for no reason other than to harm his career and not out of any concern for protecting patients. The standards are totally different in a civil trial versus a criminal trial. And it's not enough just to prove their firing harmed him. That's obvious, as every termination harms the person terminated. They have to also prove there was no concern on their part for patient safety as a result of his actions, and no concern on their part, for him having done something wrong.

It doesn't seem like it would be hard to convince 51% of jurors that you had at least some concern about patient safety, with doses like that. Juries can be hard to predict, though.

 

[RustedFox]

It’s interesting to see how things are moderated in other places on SDN. I’ve been browsing and posting in the Pain one the last couple of years and there’s political jabs in many of the threads that go to the same limit or above than here. There are often personal attacks back and forth many times over. I bet closed threads exist there but I’ve never seen it.

Ever go to reddit r/emergencymedicine?
That place is a wasteland of idealistic premeds, students, and residents who all think that "they're different" and huff the hopium like no tomorrow.
It's straight embarrassing.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Ever go to reddit r/emergencymedicine?
That place is a wasteland of idealistic premeds, students, and residents who all think that "they're different" and huff the hopium like no tomorrow.
It's straight embarrassing.

Lol i guess i need to follow that and shatter some med student dreams 🤣

 

[BoardingDoc]

Don't remember, but probably because it became political. That's almost the reason for every thread being locked. Politics should be reserved for the lounge or sociopolitical forum.

FWIW: the thread was locked because it devolved into 2-3 very vocal posters (the most vocal of which was someone who doesn't otherwise in any way contribute to the forum) arguing about legal subtleties. An offshoot thread had already been created to discuss actual medical interests related to the case (euthanasia) and discussion did continue there for some time.

As an additional FWIW: the euthanasia thread clearly had the potential to become a political argument wasteland as people above have alluded to. It didn't. It provided a very interesting back and forth between people who had vastly differing viewpoints but were largely able to behave like high functioning adults. Moreover, that thread had a couple of inflammatory posts, all of which were later deleted by the people who posted them and not based on any mod action (with the exception of an admin deleted post from one user who randomly jumped in to post about their hatred for cats).

TL;DR: As @southerndoc mentioned, politically charged topics are not intrinsically bad or forbidden. They get nuked when one vocal part of the room starts acting like Tucker Carlson and another part acts like Rachel Maddow.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It’s interesting to see how things are moderated in other places on SDN. I’ve been browsing and posting in the Pain one the last couple of years and there’s political jabs in many of the threads that go to the same limit or above than here. There are often personal attacks back and forth many times over. I bet closed threads exist there but I’ve never seen it.



Agree

Local moderators have significant leeway in how their specific forums are run.

EM is one of the more lenient areas when it comes to political discussions. I'd say it's only surpassed by anesthesiology and pain medicine.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

And @BoardingDoc and I have a lot of grace with allowing some politics, but when the thread turns majority political, then it gets locked or moved. I've previously moved them to the off-topics forum, but there can be some useful info in the thread so I've been leaving them lately.

@Apollyon Thanks for the correction.

I think going forward I'm going to move selected posts to the off-topic forum. Speaking of which, this thread is now off-topic. Let's reserve any future replies to those related to Husel's pending litigation.

The anesthesia forum gets free reign to talk about whatever without mod interference.

Why do you care so much about what people talk about?

 

[gruemd]

The anesthesia forum gets free reign to talk about whatever without mod interference.

Why do you care so much about what people talk about?

Amen. Speaking of which, I have some strong opinions re: my hatred of cats to share with everyone...

 

[cyanide12345678]

Local moderators have significant leeway in how their specific forums are run.

EM is one of the more lenient areas when it comes to political discussions. I'd say it's only surpassed by anesthesiology and pain medicine.

FWIW: the thread was locked because it devolved into 2-3 very vocal posters (the most vocal of which was someone who doesn't otherwise in any way contribute to the forum) arguing about legal subtleties. An offshoot thread had already been created to discuss actual medical interests related to the case (euthanasia) and discussion did continue there for some time.

As an additional FWIW: the euthanasia thread clearly had the potential to become a political argument wasteland as people above have alluded to. It didn't. It provided a very interesting back and forth between people who had vastly differing viewpoints but were largely able to behave like high functioning adults. Moreover, that thread had a couple of inflammatory posts, all of which were later deleted by the people who posted them and not based on any mod action (with the exception of an admin deleted post from one user who randomly jumped in to post about their hatred for cats).

TL;DR: As @southerndoc mentioned, politically charged topics are not intrinsically bad or forbidden. They get nuked when one vocal part of the room starts acting like Tucker Carlson and another part acts like Rachel Maddow.

And @BoardingDoc and I have a lot of grace with allowing some politics, but when the thread turns majority political, then it gets locked or moved. I've previously moved them to the off-topics forum, but there can be some useful info in the thread so I've been leaving them lately.

@Apollyon Thanks for the correction.

I think going forward I'm going to move selected posts to the off-topic forum. Speaking of which, this thread is now off-topic. Let's reserve any future replies to those related to Husel's pending litigation.

Genuinely curious - how did you guys become moderators/voluntary staff?

Do you get compensated for it or do it from the goodness of your hearts?

 

[RustedFox]

Genuinely curious - how did you guys become moderators/voluntary staff?

Do you get compensated for it or do it from the goodness of your hearts?

I was asked if I wanted to mod.
I read that PM, and immediately spit out whatever it was that I was drinking at the time.

 

[Rekt]

Genuinely curious - how did you guys become moderators/voluntary staff?

Do you get compensated for it or do it from the goodness of your hearts?

They do it for the big pp energy

 

[gruemd]

They do it for the big pp energy

Big if true 🐓

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Genuinely curious - how did you guys become moderators/voluntary staff?

Do you get compensated for it or do it from the goodness of your hearts?

Lots of ways. You can nominate yourself. You can be recommended by someone else. The moderator staff can nominate you. Generally speaking, its a matter of if a certain area needs more help. That's why the pre-med forums have a huge number of moderators while most of the specialty specific ones have a couple at most.

We do not get paid.

 

[southerndoc]

Genuinely curious - how did you guys become moderators/voluntary staff?

Do you get compensated for it or do it from the goodness of your hearts?

I have a small penis so I needed something to compensate. My Aston Martin wasn't doing it anymore.

@BoardingDoc and I usually tolerate the majority of discussions in here. It's usually when other users start complaining or attacking each other that we intervene. I can't remember where we've deleted a topic/post, moved a topic/post, etc. prior to somebody complaining. When people complain and it starts taking time sifting through this stuff, that's when the gavel comes down.

In all seriousness, can we get back to discussing the topic at hand?

 

[Birdstrike]

I was asked if I wanted to mod.
I read that PM, and immediately spit out whatever it was that I was drinking at the time.

I've never been asked to be a mod. Too gangsta, I guess

 

[Birdstrike]

I have a small penis so I needed something to compensate. My Aston Martin wasn't doing it anymore.

An Aston Martin only add 3/4 inch. You need a 1,500 horsepower Bugatti Chiro to get the maximum allotted extra inch.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

The anesthesia forum gets free reign to talk about whatever without mod interference.

lol not true t all. I had someone complain the other day because I closed a thread about masks. The thing is that many of us have been around here so long that just about all the clinical topics have been covered so the conversations tend to drift elsewhere.

 

[emergentmd]

Moderating on these attending groups seems alitte fun.

Imagine the med student group. There are just so many WAMC threads that I would just auto block all of them.

I mean what is the diff b/c WAMC MCAT 510, GPA 3.9, Im a good person vs WAMC MCAT 512, GPA 3.85, Ima a good person.

 

[DeadCactus]

Curious if they'll just settle. Seems like an expensive case with a lot of bad publicity, a corporation vs an individual, and a jury inherently biased by a not-guilty verdict in criminal court.

 

[FlaminHotER]

Ever go to reddit r/emergencymedicine?
That place is a wasteland of idealistic premeds, students, and residents who all think that "they're different" and huff the hopium like no tomorrow.
It's straight embarrassing.

PandaBearMD (his name is alluipoda something?) is over there dropping truth bombs and keeping that non sense in check

I wish he would come back here.

His stories and writing is hilarious

 

[Vandalia]

The problem he will likely face for the malicious prosecution claim is that in Ohio, as in most states, the fact that a grand jury returned an indictment is considered proof that probable cause existed, and the existence of probable cause is fatal to a malicious prosecution claim. The only way around that is to prove that false information was submitted to the grand jury and that false information was the sole basis for the indictment. The problem with that is that as the saying goes, "you can indict a ham sandwich", and the plaintiff would have to prove that there was absolutely no evidence for the grand jury to have found probable cause. That is an incredibly high bar. If it was 99% false and 1% true, that 1% is usually enough for an indictment.

Defamation is another "kettle of fish." The problem there is that communications to law enforcement and as part of the legal process are generally privileged against claims for defamation.

 

[thegenius]

The problem he will likely face for the malicious prosecution claim is that in Ohio, as in most states, the fact that a grand jury returned an indictment is considered proof that probable cause existed, and the existence of probable cause is fatal to a malicious prosecution claim. The only way around that is to prove that false information was submitted to the grand jury and that false information was the sole basis for the indictment. The problem with that is that as the saying goes, "you can indict a ham sandwich", and the plaintiff would have to prove that there was absolutely no evidence for the grand jury to have found probable cause. That is an incredibly high bar. If it was 99% false and 1% true, that 1% is usually enough for an indictment.

Defamation is another "kettle of fish." The problem there is that communications to law enforcement and as part of the legal process are generally privileged against claims for defamation.

If it's that obvious then why did Husel's lawyers take up the case?

 

[AlmostAnMD]

If it's that obvious then why did Husel's lawyers take up the case?

Anyone that recalls or watched the trial knows whats up. That project lighthouse thing. Everyone at mount carmel knew what he was doing. But they needed a scapegoat and specifically threw him under the bus and turned him into the police to make it look like he was a rogue doctor, not someone who had already been cleared by peer review 3 times for (effectively) euthanizing patients.

 

[hoot504]

Ever go to reddit r/emergencymedicine?
That place is a wasteland of idealistic premeds, students, and residents who all think that "they're different" and huff the hopium like no tomorrow.
It's straight embarrassing.

Absolutely true. On the other hand I'm surprised how much this place has retained a mostly attending level postership (not sure if that's a word). Generally anyone lower than resident level immediately gets exposed here and is lit up until they stop posting.

 

[turkeyjerky]

The problem he will likely face for the malicious prosecution claim is that in Ohio, as in most states, the fact that a grand jury returned an indictment is considered proof that probable cause existed, and the existence of probable cause is fatal to a malicious prosecution claim. The only way around that is to prove that false information was submitted to the grand jury and that false information was the sole basis for the indictment. The problem with that is that as the saying goes, "you can indict a ham sandwich", and the plaintiff would have to prove that there was absolutely no evidence for the grand jury to have found probable cause. That is an incredibly high bar. If it was 99% false and 1% true, that 1% is usually enough for an indictment.

Defamation is another "kettle of fish." The problem there is that communications to law enforcement and as part of the legal process are generally privileged against claims for defamation.

I only followed the case from the info posted on here, and the occasional news or medscape article, but it definitely seemed like the hospital guided the PD and prosecutors office to indictment. Basically seemed like they reported it w/ the connotation "hey this doctor has been murdering patients for years, here's the proof why it was definitely murder" rather than "hey this doctor has done this stuff. we're not sure whether it was criminal or not, but felt the need to report it just in case".

It looks like the lawsuit is filed in federal court, are impediments as high there as for states? It definitely seemed to me that they were defaming him to the media in public statements. I wonder if they could be held liable for defamation in connection w/ statements made to the patients' family members from that settlement. Unless it gets dismissed on legal grounds, I would have a hard time seeing any outcome other than a settlement.

(Hypothetically, say my wife gets into a car accident and someone is seriously injured or killed. I apologize profusely to the other party after the fact, pay them off and falsely imply she was drunk. Unbeknownst to them, we're in the middle of a contentious divorce and I hate her guts. Later on to the police, I mention that I found an empty bottle that morning and her speech was slurred before she left (leaving out the fact that I had emptied the bottle the night before myself). She's eventually found not guilty, but her reputation is ruined, she lost her job and I get to keep the cat. Can she come back and sue me for malicious prosecution?)

 

[BoardingDoc]

(Hypothetically, say my wife gets into a car accident and someone is seriously injured or killed. I apologize profusely to the other party after the fact, pay them off and falsely imply she was drunk. Unbeknownst to them, we're in the middle of a contentious divorce and I hate her guts. Later on to the police, I mention that I found an empty bottle that morning and her speech was slurred before she left (leaving out the fact that I had emptied the bottle the night before myself). She's eventually found not guilty, but her reputation is ruined, she lost her job and I get to keep the cat. Can she come back and sue me for malicious prosecution?)

Oddly specific

 

[thegenius]

Oddly specific

“just hypothetically speaking….”

 

[Onefellswoop87]

“just hypothetically speaking….”

Asking for a friend . . .

 

[miacomet]

Literally a topic about someone either providing palliative care or euthanizing them, depending on viewpoint

dissociating from politics is not possible or really even intellectually recommended

Site needs new mods imo

Exactly, "no politics" means "no politics I find offensive" not no politics. It's frustrating.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Exactly, "no politics" means "no politics I find offensive" not no politics. It's frustrating.

And everything about our job (pay, laws, regulations, rules, policies) is almost entirely driven by politics.

 

[NITRAS]

If it's that obvious then why did Husel's lawyers take up the case?

From the details I remember, he was practicing way outside normal practice of care, using much higher doses routinely that other only use on rare occasion, if ever. The fact that he was thrown to the wolves by the hospital and later not found guilty of criminal charges, doesn’t mean he practicing medicine well or deserved to keep his job.

 

[turkeyjerky]

From the details I remember, he was practicing way outside normal practice of care, using much higher doses routinely that other only use on rare occasion, if ever. The fact that he was thrown to the wolves by the hospital and later not found guilty of criminal charges, doesn’t mean he practicing medicine well or deserved to keep his job.

If the interventional cardiologist on call doesn't want to take a post-arrest stemi to the cath lab, should I refer them for negligent homicide?

Hospital didn't just send a report to the NPDB, the dude was trial for f'ing murder.

 

[thegenius]

If the interventional cardiologist on call doesn't want to take a post-arrest stemi to the cath lab, should I refer them for negligent homicide?

Hospital didn't just send a report to the NPDB, the dude was trial for f'ing murder.

YES

 

[AlmostAnMD]

1 year after acquittal, Husel attorney says he was unfairly painted as 'villain'

One year ago, a jury found former Mount Carmel doctor William Husel not guilty in the deaths of his patients.It was a trial that lasted weeks, and a case our te

abc6onyourside.com

This link has an in-lined view of all 55 pages of his suit. I'll take a gander later when I have more time.