Husel Trial -- NOT GUILTY

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If I am terminal, suffering, can not communicate my wishes, will die in a few days...... you can give me as much fentanyl, ketamine, dilaudid, ativan, propofol as you would like. Heck, give me 10 gmof Vec along 10g of Propofol and 10g of Ketaime then let me die in peace. I will thank you on the other side.

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Yep.

People in the US need to get a grip on mortality. Your life is not an Animated Disney Classic. You won't magically wake up one day when Prince Charming kisses you.
 
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I am surprised .... Not sure what the facts were.

If you watched the trial you would not be surprised and you would know facts

Otherwise you only know what the media fed you, DOCTOR MURDERING PATIENTS IN THE NIGHT
 
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If you watched the trial you would not be surprised and you would know facts

Otherwise you only know what the media fed you, DOCTOR MURDERING PATIENTS IN THE NIGHT
This. It was pathetic. They kept saying "under the cloak of darkness". I think even the elephant expert witness used that terminology too.
When the facts were that Husel was going to palliatively extubate earlier in the day but wanted to wait for family to arrive that night.

50 witnesses, most of which felt like they were testifying FOR husel. They quite literally had no case.
 
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So if He was convicted of murder then would all of the pharmacists who filled the large amounts be accessory to murder? How about the nurse who gave it? How about admin who knew about this. How about MEC who I am sure this topic was brought up.

I mean, if I shot someone and my family/friends knew, and they didn't stop/turn me in and I kept killing; I expect most to convict them of accessory to murder. How about the gun shop who knew I was killing but kept selling me bullets and new guns?
 
So if He was convicted of murder then would all of the pharmacists who filled the large amounts be accessory to murder? How about the nurse who gave it? How about admin who knew about this. How about MEC who I am sure this topic was brought up.

I mean, if I shot someone and my family/friends knew, and they didn't stop/turn me in and I kept killing; I expect most to convict them of accessory to murder. How about the gun shop who knew I was killing but kept selling me bullets and new guns?
the admin (who has a background in pharmacy) that was alerted and didn't act quickly was "fired" with some sort of settlement agreement, and was given "glowing reviews" by mount carmel when he attempted to obtain new employment.

source: time stamp 1:25:00
 
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And what about accessory after the fact? A guilty verdict could have really opened up a can of worms.
 
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This is my point. If he was found guilty, then they need to go after everyone who knew and didn't say anything. Talk about rabbit hole.
 
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I bet hospital settles with him for big $$$. Imagine the shady ****te that would come out in a trial. No doc or nurse works would ever work for them again.

the decision to pursue criminal charges was up to the state. The hospital escalated their concerns to law enforcement who researched and studied the matter and decided that the state had a case and pursued it.
 
I was discussing this case with a pharmacist yesterday and he had a different take from what I'm seeing here. Rather than seeing Husel as the victim of a witch hunt, he views Husel as someone who cost 23 other people their jobs because of his cavalier practice.

I will honor the not guilty verdict, but I am not inclined to view him as a hero for us to rally behind.
 
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I was discussing this case with a pharmacist yesterday and he had a different take from what I'm seeing here. Rather than seeing Husel as the victim of a witch hunt, he views Husel as someone who cost 23 other people their jobs because of his cavalier practice.

I will honor the not guilty verdict, but I am not inclined to view him as a hero for us to rally behind.

If I were acidotic, on a vent, and with no hope of ever recovering any meaningful neurologic activity; he would be my hero.
 
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He’s not a hero, he’s actually kinda dumb. He could have accomplished the same thing with smaller more frequent doses and nobody would have batted an eye and he’d still be practicing. Instead he lost his license, his job, probably a ton of money and any hopes of a future career in medicine. That said, if he’s a murderer then pretty much all of us are too because we’ve all done similar **** just with smaller doses.
 
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He’s not a hero, he’s actually kinda dumb. He could have accomplished the same thing with smaller more frequent doses and nobody would have batted an eye and he’d still be practicing. Instead he lost his license, his job, probably a ton of money and any hopes of a future career in medicine. That said, if he’s a murderer than pretty much all of us are too because we’ve all done similar **** just with smaller doses.

I could argue then you’re prolong suffering to appease everyone else, but not thinking of the patient.
I do understand your point, as I probably have done similar things in the past.
 
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If I were acidotic, on a vent, and with no hope of ever recovering any meaningful neurologic activity; he would be my hero.
So would a countless number of mainstream critical care and palliative care doctors who would ensure your comfort and get you off the machines for a dignified death.

I am as aggressive about talking people out of futile care as they come, but there is a normal way of doing things and most patients who are that sick will die quickly and peacefully with a lot less meds.

I don’t know if him pushing super high doses killed that that much faster (because they were dying very quickly as it is), but I have no reason to believe they would have suffered a tremendous amount if they had standard end of life care.

Edit: I’m also happy he was found not guilty. His practice was outside of mainstream but from what I’ve read and heard, it’s hardly criminal and these patients were dying quickly.
 
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I could argue then you’re prolong suffering to appease everyone else, but not thinking of the patient.
I do understand your point, as I probably have done similar things in the past.
But we prolong end of life all the time. You can lobby politicians and medical boards to change this, but as it currently stands you can’t just do what’s right for the patient. You diagnose brain death but a family member from out of state is flying in the next day. Guess what? You keep the dead patient on the ventilator for their family to say goodbye. That’s 24 hours of ventilating and medicating someone who’s already dead. Same with delaying withdrawal to see if family wants to donate. These are cases of clear cut medically diagnosed death and sometimes it drags for days. You can have cases of severe brain damage or refractory shock or liver failure and you keep the patient alive for weeks doing procedures and having them on machines to “appease” people. This is modern medicine. You don’t have to like it, but you have to play by the rules until you can get the rules changed (and then still play by the rules).
 
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I was discussing this case with a pharmacist yesterday and he had a different take from what I'm seeing here. Rather than seeing Husel as the victim of a witch hunt, he views Husel as someone who cost 23 other people their jobs because of his cavalier practice.

I will honor the not guilty verdict, but I am not inclined to view him as a hero for us to rally behind.
And yet many, if not most, of the nurses and pharmacists that were fired supported him even after they were fired. They signed petitions for him and many were in court to support him.

I don't see him as a hero. I'm torn on his actual actions (I'm opposed to euthanasia), but I don't have the education or training or experience to say definitively that his actions were intended to kill rather than to give comfort. I'm glad that he was acquitted, though, because I don't like the precedent that a guilty verdict would have set. I do wonder, though, how likely a guilty verdict would have survived an appeal.
 
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If I were acidotic, on a vent, and with no hope of ever recovering any meaningful neurologic activity; he would be my hero.
You and I agree that in that case you should be allowed to die a comfortable death and not be subjected to artificial life-sustaining care.

If you are in that state and under my care I will work to make you comfortable and to relieve your suffering and I will not prolong your dying process. I likely wont order 1000mcg of fentanyl, but that's not to "appease" anyone. It's because that's just not the best way to provide comfort care. Good comfort care requires a meticulous assessment of symptoms - often there are a lot of things IN ADDITION to opioids that will help much more than supratherapeutic slugs of fentanyl.
 
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the decision to pursue criminal charges was up to the state. The hospital escalated their concerns to law enforcement who researched and studied the matter and decided that the state had a case and pursued it.
Did you watch the testimony of the lead detective who investigated it? He came off as knowing very little and admitted to not looking into things very thoroughly. It was painful to watch and definitely causes speculation as to who was actually driving the investigation.
Given the hospital's immediate response to publicly throw Husel under the bus (multiple public videos) and their internal Project Lighthouse where they identified Husel as "the villain", I think there's probably evidence of defamation by the hospital.
 
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I was discussing this case with a pharmacist yesterday and he had a different take from what I'm seeing here. Rather than seeing Husel as the victim of a witch hunt, he views Husel as someone who cost 23 other people their jobs because of his cavalier practice.

I will honor the not guilty verdict, but I am not inclined to view him as a hero for us to rally behind.

I take issue with your pharmacist friend’s view.

Husel may have led them to the lake, but he couldn’t make them drink. It annoys me when people take away their own agency. He didn’t make them do anything, they chose to do it.

I don’t think he’s a hero either, but that’s a load of bull.
 
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I take issue with your pharmacist friend’s view.

Husel may have led them to the lake, but he couldn’t make them drink. It annoys me when people take away their own agency. He didn’t make them do anything, they chose to do it.

I don’t think he’s a hero either, but that’s a load of bull.
I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions unless coerced. I don't know enough about what happened to conclude that coercion happened here, so I do not assent to my colleague's view. But since I thought it's an interesting take I shared it.
 
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I could argue then you’re prolong suffering to appease everyone else, but not thinking of the patient.
I do understand your point, as I probably have done similar things in the past.
On all the patients I’ve ever pushed multiple doses of morphine and benzos on, none of them could speak, all of them were unconscious, and all of them died in a couple minutes-hours with their families at bedside. On one occasion the family actually sang songs to them before they passed. I don’t think they would have had that moment if the patient would have passed instantly and I believe the patient would have loved to see their family sitting around singing to them. I think medicines are great for transitioning from life to death but for the vast majority of cases multiple doses is probably better than one huge bolus especially in the ED, maybe different in the ICU but I don’t work there.
 
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You and I agree that in that case you should be allowed to die a comfortable death and not be subjected to artificial life-sustaining care.

If you are in that state and under my care I will work to make you comfortable and to relieve your suffering and I will not prolong your dying process. I likely wont order 1000mcg of fentanyl, but that's not to "appease" anyone. It's because that's just not the best way to provide comfort care. Good comfort care requires a meticulous assessment of symptoms - often there are a lot of things IN ADDITION to opioids that will help much more than supratherapeutic slugs of fentanyl.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I don't think we should debate whether or not someone who is actively dying would have a comfortable death with hefty doses of versed and fentanyl. They in fact...would. Now we could debate standards and how much is enough vs too much, etc. til the cows come home. I do not think it is debatable though that patients who receive extremely high benzo/opioid doses have comfortable deaths.

Where I imagine we would disagree is about the actual death process, and that gets into what Americans are comfortable with societally speaking. I can only tell you that when I begin the dying process, please just go ahead and get it over with as soon as you possibly can.
 
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I generally agree with what you're saying, but I don't think we should debate whether or not someone who is actively dying would have a comfortable death with hefty doses of versed and fentanyl. They in fact...would. Now we could debate standards and how much is enough vs too much, etc. til the cows come home. I do not think it is debatable though that patients who receive extremely high benzo/opioid doses have comfortable deaths.

Where I imagine we would disagree is about the actual death process, and that gets into what Americans are comfortable with societally speaking. I can only tell you that when I begin the dying process, please just go ahead and get it over with as soon as you possibly can.
I beg to differ that an OD on fentanyl would necessarily be comfortable. Morphine maybe, but not fentanyl. Fentanyl is well-known to cause muscular rigidity that can make artificial ventilation quite difficult and certainly tax the strength of respiratory muscles in an unventilated and especially debilitated patient. I've seen dysphoric agitated delirium with fentanyl even at low doses on a patch. While morphine can cause dysphoria in some patients it is much rarer than with fentanyl and the respiratory rigidity produced by fentanyl is not seen with morphine. I can't imagine how horrible it would be for a patient taken off a vent to feel his chest as if it were bound up in a vice. That may be one of the reasons why physicians argued against its use in lethal injection executions (in Nevada) and why in those countries that allow euthanasia it is not a recommended drug for that purpose.
 
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Probably also true in the reverse. It seems like a lot was made of his actions being criminal, both in his termination and in the revocation of his license. I would not be surprised if he sued his former employer, and to a lesser extent would be unsurprised if he filed a suit against the sbom. Not sure if either will carry, but the appearance of conspiracy may play poorly for mt caramel.
Do you have any proof of that? Is that what the Ohio Medical Board said was the reason for his license suspension? Medical Boards do revoke licenses for actual criminal convictions, but they don't do so because they think a physician committed a crime. Yes, they may suspend a license while someone is charged with a crime, but that is nothing a physician is likely to be able to successfully sue them for. Hospital peer review also doesn't make decisions about the "criminality" of care like that provided by Husel. They discipline (up to and including firing) physicians for departures from the standards of medical care, and there is absolutely no question that Husel practiced well outside the standards of medical care. That will likely come out in his pending medical malpractice trial(s). In these he cannot hide behind his lawyers but will have to testify. And likely all sorts of things the criminal jury was kept from seeing (like his criminal history) will all come out in the open. It doesn't look all that rosy for him I think.

And don't forget, he was found "not guilty" of murder or attempted murder where it is absolutely necessary to convince the jury of intent. Had he faced a charge of reckless homicide, IMO the jury would likely have found him guilty. He should count himself extremely lucky that charge was not on the jury's table.

But of course he's going to sue. This whole experience for him was likely a severe narcissistic injury for which he'd like to exact revenge. And unless his defense team was working pro bono, he's got a lot of expenses to pay...so why not shoot for the moon and sue (though that will incur even more expense)?
 
In the end I think a not guilty verdict serves the greater good. Let’s not criminalize attempts, however aggressive, outside of the norm, or foolish they may be to provide comfort in dying patients.

Husel can be foolishly cavalier without being a murderer that sets precedent for all of us as well as serves as the harbinger of hard and fast dosing rules dictated to us by non-medical legal or administrative personnel.
 
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Pleasantly surprised by the verdict. I thought for sure he would be convicted after the testimony of that guy from Vanderbilt. There’s more sense in the world than I expected.

For me one of the takeaways here is that maybe we’re a little to casual in the way we approach GOC conversations, given that so many of the families are claiming that he misled them? It’s a pretty monumental decision…would it make more sense to have them sign some kind of form, or to record the conversation if via phone? I feel like we cover ourselves more giving blood transfusions than we do taking someone off a ventilator.
 
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I beg to differ that an OD on fentanyl would necessarily be comfortable. Morphine maybe, but not fentanyl. Fentanyl is well-known to cause muscular rigidity that can make artificial ventilation quite difficult and certainly tax the strength of respiratory muscles in an unventilated and especially debilitated patient. I've seen dysphoric agitated delirium with fentanyl even at low doses on a patch. While morphine can cause dysphoria in some patients it is much rarer than with fentanyl and the respiratory rigidity produced by fentanyl is not seen with morphine. I can't imagine how horrible it would be for a patient taken off a vent to feel his chest as if it were bound up in a vice. That may be one of the reasons why physicians argued against its use in lethal injection executions (in Nevada) and why in those countries that allow euthanasia it is not a recommended drug for that purpose.

I use fentanyl daily and have not seen it yet. If your ph is 7 you're probably not caring much anyway
 
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Do you have any proof of that? Is that what the Ohio Medical Board said was the reason for his license suspension? Medical Boards do revoke licenses for actual criminal convictions, but they don't do so because they think a physician committed a crime. Yes, they may suspend a license while someone is charged with a crime, but that is nothing a physician is likely to be able to successfully sue them for. Hospital peer review also doesn't make decisions about the "criminality" of care like that provided by Husel. They discipline (up to and including firing) physicians for departures from the standards of medical care, and there is absolutely no question that Husel practiced well outside the standards of medical care. That will likely come out in his pending medical malpractice trial(s). In these he cannot hide behind his lawyers but will have to testify. And likely all sorts of things the criminal jury was kept from seeing (like his criminal history) will all come out in the open. It doesn't look all that rosy for him I think.

And don't forget, he was found "not guilty" of murder or attempted murder where it is absolutely necessary to convince the jury of intent. Had he faced a charge of reckless homicide, IMO the jury would likely have found him guilty. He should count himself extremely lucky that charge was not on the jury's table.

But of course he's going to sue. This whole experience for him was likely a severe narcissistic injury for which he'd like to exact revenge. And unless his defense team was working pro bono, he's got a lot of expenses to pay...so why not shoot for the moon and sue (though that will incur even more expense)?

It’s possible if reading too much between the lines, but it seems like you’re reading into my post a bit more than was intended.

I certainly never implied that either his employers peer review or the sbom “convicted” him.

The criminal nature of his actions was cited in statements by his employer regarding his termination. It was also cited in his license removal.

His employers case, if he frames it as a wrongful termination, will be weaker because he didn’t get convicted. This much is obvious to anyone.

The optics of how they conducted a campaign against him (videos, press conferences, preventing favorable testimony) might play well for a jury. However, my only knowledge of this comes from the thread here, and I’m not digging through it to find the sources.

I seriously doubt he could win a case against the medical board, but I wouldn’t doubt his lawyers might try anyway in the hopes of a settlement, which might be in the boards best interest to get this out of the news cycle for the next few years.

However, all of this is far outside my expertise and I can’t really give a meaningful opinion on it beyond idle speculation, which is what my post was meant to be.

You imply that he will sue because he’s a narcissist. I’ll ignore the completely baseless claim that he’s a narcissist, and point out he would be an idiot not to try a civil case. He likely will not work in medicine again (which is appropriate, he should not). He has no other clear source of income, and likely has significant legal debt. His position probably can’t get much worse, and if he wins a significant amount he can offset his losses.

I agree he may have added difficulties in civil court. His opponents may as well, and they will endure the ongoing humiliation in the press as long as this goes on.
 
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However, all of this is far outside my expertise

You imply that he will sue because he’s a narcissist. I’ll ignore the completely baseless claim that he’s a narcissist, and point out he would be an idiot not to try a civil case.

It's outside of your expertise because it's outside of everyone's expertise. It's never happened and there's no precedent. Kevorkian did true, through-and-through euthanasia. This was about end-of-life-care more aggressive than most people are used to seeing and there's just nothing to hold it against other than "what everyone else does." Which, by itself, says little. Everyone else didn't wash their hands before surgery before Lister. Unlike that specific example measuring outcomes here is a bit challenging since death is expected regardless.

And I agree calling him a narcissist is baseless. I, too, would be out on a revenge tour. An organized hitjob against his career and his character was undertaken. He was threatened with prison for the rest of his life for aggressive palliative care. And someone has the balls to call him a narcissist? What would that poster do in his situation, just shrug his shoulders and work at chipotle? wtf
 
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I beg to differ that an OD on fentanyl would necessarily be comfortable. Morphine maybe, but not fentanyl. Fentanyl is well-known to cause muscular rigidity that can make artificial ventilation quite difficult and certainly tax the strength of respiratory muscles in an unventilated and especially debilitated patient. I've seen dysphoric agitated delirium with fentanyl even at low doses on a patch. While morphine can cause dysphoria in some patients it is much rarer than with fentanyl and the respiratory rigidity produced by fentanyl is not seen with morphine. I can't imagine how horrible it would be for a patient taken off a vent to feel his chest as if it were bound up in a vice. That may be one of the reasons why physicians argued against its use in lethal injection executions (in Nevada) and why in those countries that allow euthanasia it is not a recommended drug for that purpose.

It'd be comfortable. For 14 years now between residency and life as an attending anesthesiologist I've been giving what you, or anyone outside of the OR, would consider high doses of fentanyl to operative patients during their pre, intra, and post-operative course. I've never once, yes, not even once, seen muscular rigidity to fentanyl. The large majority of reactions constitute 'hey Doc whatever you just gave me made my head swimmy and I'm feeling reallllyyyy goooooodddd!'.

I once saw what my attending in residency said was muscular rigidity to a fentanyl analog post-induction in a cardiac patient. But we just paralyzed, intubated, and moved on with the case.

Overall, you presented an extremely rare situation that doesn't apply to the very large majority of patients we deal with. In giving high doses of fentanyl to thousands of patients in my career so far, muscular rigidity is of zero concern.
 
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It is a bizarre case and unusual approach to managing these patients. He should have consulted palliative medicine, but I am biased.

One typically doesn't manage terminal end-of-life symptoms (pain/air hunger), whether recalcitrant or not, with an opioid selection that has an anticipated duration of effect of only ~30 min. Even for patients where they are looking minutes away from death... these folks can linger minutes, hours, days. Happens all the time. 30 minutes goes by and doc is paged by nurse "hey doc, patient tachypneic again. That 500 fentanyl you just ordered isnt doing the trick!"... so then doc, following elementary guidelines on opioid management, doubles the dose "for better control". Now we are at 1000mcg bolus... When in reality they just need some thought to duration of effect and opioid selection.

Fentanyl is off and on. Great for reductions in the ED. Great for trauma. Great for OR. And... I don't see the value of it in this scenario unless the patients had some sort of universal severe allergy to phenanthrenes and other nonphenanthrene options were contraindicated for a more stable serum level to support the end-of-life process.

Looking at the first page of this thread there is a patient sheet where everyone has MOF and BP's in the dumps and pH in the pits... these patients' physiology don't often need elephant size doses of opioids to silence the experience of air hunger. They were certainly dying already and regardless. The management is just crude and gives the impression of not being thoughtful with close ongoing sxs assessment. Busy ICU doc: "look at these vitals. Look at this pH. This patient is going to die. Looks uncomfortable. Uhhhhhhh, 2000mcg fentanyl!"

On paper and face value it strikes me as an ICU doc that could have used some outside expertise in his decision making.

Not a doc guilty of MURDER, but someone 100% guilty of needing additional support or training if choosing to manage these scenarios on his own going forward.
 
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It'd be comfortable. For 14 years now between residency and life as an attending anesthesiologist I've been giving what you, or anyone outside of the OR, would consider high doses of fentanyl to operative patients during their pre, intra, and post-operative course. I've never once, yes, not even once, seen muscular rigidity to fentanyl. The large majority of reactions constitute 'hey Doc whatever you just gave me made my head swimmy and I'm feeling reallllyyyy goooooodddd!'.

I once saw what my attending in residency said was muscular rigidity to a fentanyl analog post-induction in a cardiac patient. But we just paralyzed, intubated, and moved on with the case.

Overall, you presented an extremely rare situation that doesn't apply to the very large majority of patients we deal with. In giving high doses of fentanyl to thousands of patients in my career so far, muscular rigidity is of zero concern.
I haven’t given fentanyl in these doses, but I have seen 1-2 cases (one of them was called that due to lung compliance but I have my doubts it was the cause) of the chest wall rigidity that keeps being mentioned in probably 5000 or so patients I’ve given fentanyl to. I generally use other agents for pain, but commonly use it after intubation as a drip, and use it routinely in trauma or other unpredictable pts.

It’s like referencing malignant hyperthermia as a reason to avoid succinylcholine. Sure it’s a thing, but there are better reasons to either use it or avoid it.
 
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It is a bizarre case and unusual approach to managing these patients. He should have consulted palliative medicine, but I am biased.

One typically doesn't manage terminal end-of-life symptoms (pain/air hunger), whether recalcitrant or not, with an opioid selection that has an anticipated duration of effect of only ~30 min. Even for patients where they are looking minutes away from death... these folks can linger minutes, hours, days. Happens all the time.

Fentanyl is off and on. Great for reductions in the ED. Great for trauma. Great for OR. And... I don't see the value of it in this scenario unless the patients had some sort of universal severe allergy to phenanthrenes and other nonphenanthrene options were contraindicated for a more stable serum level to support the end-of-life process.

Looking at the first page of this thread there is a patient sheet where everyone has MOF and BP's in the dumps and pH in the pits... these patients' physiology don't often need elephant size doses of opioids to silence the experience of air hunger. They were certainly dying already and regardless. The management is just crude and gives the impression of not being thoughtful with close ongoing sxs assessment. Busy ICU doc: "look at these vitals. Look at this pH. This patient is going to die. Looks uncomfortable. Uhhhhhhh, 2000mcg fentanyl!"

On paper and face value it strikes me as an ICU doc that could have used some outside expertise in his decision making.

Not a doc guilty of MURDER, but someone 100% guilty of needing additional support or training if chooses to manage these scenarios on his own going forward.

I…..mostly agree. Though this chart argues against the assertion fentanyl is always fast on fast off.

1650568241378.gif


Now, there could be an argument made that in the ICU setting, where one has been using fentanyl “sedation” it makes some sense to use the same agent as a bolus to reacquire a therapeutic level. At least in that scenario the expected result may be anticipated (though at higher doses) than adding a different drug (especially one that acts on different receptors) concomitantly.

That’s the argument anyway. My position has been stated often lol.
 
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I…..mostly agree. Though this chart argues against the assertion fentanyl is always fast on fast off.

View attachment 353688

Now, there could be an argument made that in the ICU setting, where one has been using fentanyl “sedation” it makes some sense to use the same agent as a bolus to reacquire a therapeutic level. At least in that scenario the expected result may be anticipated (though at higher doses) than adding a different drug (especially one that acts on different receptors) concomitantly.

That’s the argument anyway. My position has been stated often lol.

This is an interesting chart. Thanks for posting it as it speaks to different classes of drugs. Can you help me understand it better... the x is infusion duration and the y speaks to half-life... in context of boluses and vis-a-vis alternative opioid options, what does this chart tell me? What would the curves of morphine, hydromorphone, nalbuphine, methadone look like compared to fentanyl here? Would they hug the Y axis to point of overlap as scaled (i.e. fentanyl is comparatively indeed off and on vs alt opioids)?

That was my understanding in this case fentanyl was being used as bolus and not infusion, no?

It is not rhetorical, I am sincerely asking.
 
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Your chart implies infusion.
Bolus doses don't imply infusion, and I am also confused.

I use a ton of opiates and benzos, and try to avoid using fentanyl for boluses because it wears off too fast. (And I do hospice)
 
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It is a bizarre case and unusual approach to managing these patients. He should have consulted palliative medicine, but I am biased.

One typically doesn't manage terminal end-of-life symptoms (pain/air hunger), whether recalcitrant or not, with an opioid selection that has an anticipated duration of effect of only ~30 min. Even for patients where they are looking minutes away from death... these folks can linger minutes, hours, days. Happens all the time. 30 minutes goes by and doc is paged by nurse "hey doc, patient tachypneic again. That 500 fentanyl you just ordered isnt doing the trick!"... so then doc, following elementary guidelines on opioid management, doubles the dose "for better control". Now we are at 1000mcg bolus... When in reality they just need some thought to duration of effect and opioid selection.

Fentanyl is off and on. Great for reductions in the ED. Great for trauma. Great for OR. And... I don't see the value of it in this scenario unless the patients had some sort of universal severe allergy to phenanthrenes and other nonphenanthrene options were contraindicated for a more stable serum level to support the end-of-life process.

Looking at the first page of this thread there is a patient sheet where everyone has MOF and BP's in the dumps and pH in the pits... these patients' physiology don't often need elephant size doses of opioids to silence the experience of air hunger. They were certainly dying already and regardless. The management is just crude and gives the impression of not being thoughtful with close ongoing sxs assessment. Busy ICU doc: "look at these vitals. Look at this pH. This patient is going to die. Looks uncomfortable. Uhhhhhhh, 2000mcg fentanyl!"

On paper and face value it strikes me as an ICU doc that could have used some outside expertise in his decision making.

Not a doc guilty of MURDER, but someone 100% guilty of needing additional support or training if choosing to manage these scenarios on his own going forward.

You’re making some big assumptions and almost making this out to be a turf thing.
 
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You’re making some big assumptions and almost making this out to be a turf thing.

Not at all. Countless crit care docs are phenomenal at managing acute end of life scenarios. COUNTLESS! :)

They can use thoughtfulness and finesse with elegant decision-making based off of close symptom management and longitudinal med titration at bedside. Many do.

My example of naively doubling 500mcg to get to the 1000mcg bolus might look like degrading the ICU doc... but actually I would give more credit to THAT (albeit) over-simplistic thought process of ignoring duration of effect than just starting at 1,000 mcg. I do not know did the doc in this case double his doses or just start at 1000? I don't know the answer. This thread is 20-something pages.

And yet, the management in this case does not render that impression of careful longitudinal assessment and adjustments tailored to the patient at bedside. Seems like someone that could use some outside expertise, as I said... That is nothing to be offended about.
 
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Kevorkian did true, through-and-through euthanasia.
Kevorkian did not perform euthanasia. Kevorkian performed physician assisted suicide, which is what is now legal in several U.S. states. He set up drugs for patients to take themselves. He assisted people in ending their own lives. Euthanasia is the giving of a medication by a physician to intentionally hasten a patient's death and is illegal in all 50 U.S. states. Except for in...or unless....ah... forget it.
 
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Kevorkian did not perform euthanasia. Kevorkian performed physician assisted suicide, which is what is now legal in several U.S. states. He set up drugs for patients to take themselves. He assisted people in ending their own lives. Euthanasia is the giving of a medication by a physician to intentionally hasten a patient's death and is illegal in all 50 U.S. states. Except for in...or unless....ah... forget it.

I think Kevorkian finally got nailed because he committed euthanasia.
 
This is an interesting chart. Thanks for posting it as it speaks to different classes of drugs. Can you help me understand it better... the x is infusion duration and the y speaks to half-life... in context of boluses and vis-a-vis alternative opioid options, what does this chart tell me? What would the curves of morphine, hydromorphone, nalbuphine, methadone look like compared to fentanyl here? Would they hug the Y axis as scaled?

That was my understanding in this case fentanyl was being used as bolus and not infusion, no?

It is not rhetorical, I am sincerely asking.
The longer the duration of a fentanyl infusion the longer it’s half life becomes. This is well documented. It’s referred to as context sensitive half time.

You are correct that it occurs with an infusion. However, infusions are used to provide maintenance. The only way to quickly acquire therapeutic effect is with a bolus, not an infusion. It’s about increasing the blood level of your drug to a level that pharmacodynamically achieves the effect you want. Often what people do, commonly with pressors etc, is to double the infusion rate to gain a therapeutic level for their chosen endpoint which I guess is just a slow bolus. But personally, I’d bolus, get to my endpoint and increase the infusion in an attempt to maintain the therapeutic blood level of drug x.

In drugs that exhibit a high context sensitive half time of which fentanyl is likely the most famous/well described, the blood level remains high and in the setting of tolerance/receptor down regulation the only way to achieve therapeutic effect is with a large bolus as the patient is continuing to see both a high blood level (it’s half time is longer) AND receptor based tolerance.

For other opioids;

 
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I think Kevorkian finally got nailed because he committed euthanasia.
In his final act, yes, not the first 130 (or however many it was). He also had no medical license at that point, started acting as his own attorney and video taped that final act daring law enforcement to arrest him. He changed his method for that one final time, deciding to go down as a martyr for the cause, as opposed to trying to evade the consequences of his actions. But generally, physician assisted suicide was his method.
 
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Kevorkian did not perform euthanasia. Kevorkian performed physician assisted suicide, which is what is now legal in several U.S. states. He set up drugs for patients to take themselves. He assisted people in ending their own lives. Euthanasia is the giving of a medication by a physician to intentionally hasten a patient's death and is illegal in all 50 U.S. states. Except for in...or unless....ah... forget it.
After Youk provided his fully informed consent (a sometimes complex legal determination made in this case by editorial consensus) on September 17, 1998, Kevorkian himself administered Thomas Youk a lethal injection.

He committed euthanasia
 
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The longer the duration of a fentanyl infusion the longer it’s half life becomes. This is well documented. It’s referred to as context sensitive half time.

You are correct that it occurs with an infusion. However, infusions are used to provide maintenance. The only way to quickly acquire therapeutic effect is with a bolus, not an infusion. It’s about increasing the blood level of your drug to a level that pharmacodynamically achieves the effect you want. Often what people do, commonly with pressors etc, is to double the infusion rate to gain a therapeutic level for their chosen endpoint which I guess is just a slow bolus. But personally, I’d bolus, get to my endpoint and increase the infusion in an attempt to maintain the therapeutic blood level of drug x.

In drugs that exhibit a high context sensitive half time of which fentanyl is likely the most famous/well described, the blood level remains high and in the setting of tolerance/receptor down regulation the only way to achieve therapeutic effect is with a large bolus as the patient is continuing to see both a high blood level (it’s half time is longer) AND receptor based tolerance.

For other opioids;


Yes I agree with you. In fact one of my hills to die on at my hospital is not "titrate infusion to sxs" which unfortunately is ordered far too often. Bolus bolus bolus as you say. Use the data to guide subsequent infusion changes. Agreed.

However there were no symptom-focused infusions in this case? Just sedation for intubation? Or were there?

I'm not necessarily looking at infusions as quick on or off, or time patients maintain concentration after dc'ing an infusion secondary to dynamic context sensitive half-life... As you know for these patients an infusion rate would have likely only gone in one direction and not discontinued. But rather focused on selection of opioid (in this case fentanyl) for a stand alone bolus in regard to duration of effect (not even necessarily serum level) as things can get more hairy when we introduce the partial agonists.

Very interesting nonetheless. Is your specialty anesthesiology?

EDIT: thank you for the awesome second chart with opioids. I saved it for future lectures.
 
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After Youk provided his fully informed consent (a sometimes complex legal determination made in this case by editorial consensus) on September 17, 1998, Kevorkian himself administered Thomas Youk a lethal injection.

He committed euthanasia
See the clarification right above your post.
 
This is an interesting chart. Thanks for posting it as it speaks to different classes of drugs. Can you help me understand it better... the x is infusion duration and the y speaks to half-life... in context of boluses and vis-a-vis alternative opioid options, what does this chart tell me? What would the curves of morphine, hydromorphone, nalbuphine, methadone look like compared to fentanyl here? Would they hug the Y axis to point of overlap as scaled (i.e. fentanyl is comparatively indeed off and on vs alt opioids)?

That was my understanding in this case fentanyl was being used as bolus and not infusion, no?

It is not rhetorical, I am sincerely asking.

Your chart implies infusion.
Bolus doses don't imply infusion, and I am also confused.

I use a ton of opiates and benzos, and try to avoid using fentanyl for boluses because it wears off too fast. (And I do hospice)
The patients had been on infusions prior to the palliative extubation which that chart shows why it wouldn't be fast off for these patients (as opposed to a hypothetical patient who had not been on fentanyl at all prior to the extubation).
 
The patients had been on infusions prior to the palliative extubation which that chart shows why it wouldn't be fast off for these patients (as opposed to a hypothetical patient who had not been on fentanyl at all prior to the extubation).

Thank you for this. From what you can recall on the case, were infusions continued? What rate were they running? When were these bolus doses given temporally in relation to extubation? How did he arrive at 1000mcg as a selected dose?

Please don't feel obligated to spend your time looking for those answers... more so just musing and thinking outloud on my part.
 
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