How will Obama's health care reform plans affect dentists?

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Dr. Jeff, I cant even tell you how many times I have had someone off the street, with an infection, apparently cant afford treatment or a copay. I have never sent them out the door without treating them. I also cant tell you how many times of had someone walk without paying. As far as donations to the american cancer society, diabetes foundations, the local homeless shelter, thousands. Now of course when Obama decides to cut back on the tax deductions for charitable donations (another ******ed idea) we will likely have to cut back our donations or fire an employee .

oh jeez...cutting back charitable donations! :eek: that will teach those insolent poor/sick people! fire an employee! oh wow. i'm sure the cute blond assistant you already underpay at $15/hr will never bounce back. hrrumph! hahaha

dentists view students/ younger people as uninformed idealists while they maintain this egomaniacal, self-entitled view of their own little world.

now i gotta get back to studyn for the boards...catch ya later!

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oh jeez...cutting back charitable donations! :eek: that will teach those insolent poor/sick people!

Are you that clueless? How much Obama kool-aid are you drinking nightly? How much do you currently give to charity? Honestly, you can bash practicing dentists, make your self righteous statements, but what are you CURRENTLY doing for your insolent poor/sick people?

Hate to tell you, I dont view students as uninformed idealists, but I view you as self righteous and clueless. Some day WHEN YOU GROW UP AND GET A JOB, and pay taxes, maybe you will understand. Good luck with your boards.
 
oh jeez...cutting back charitable donations! :eek: that will teach those insolent poor/sick people! fire an employee! oh wow. i'm sure the cute blond assistant you already underpay at $15/hr will never bounce back. hrrumph! hahaha

dentists view students/ younger people as uninformed idealists while they maintain this egomaniacal, self-entitled view of their own little world.

now i gotta get back to studyn for the boards...catch ya later!

Now oracle, you can think what you want about those of us in practice and our view of the world/Obamaland, but unless I'm vastly mistaken, or the direct view/understanding I get from current students at UCONN is completely different than those of *most* dental students out there, dental school still doesn't, and never really has adequately prepared one for the business side of dentistry(and I understand why with how much time is required for the dental education and how much extra time would be required for what realistically for many should be the equivalent of an MBA to adequately run a business that in many cases grosses over 7 figures a year.

What posters like myself, OceanDMD and Daurang, 3 practicing dentists in various parts of the country, will often try and convey to the students here is what you will likely see to some extent in "real" dentistry as opposed to what you see in the confines of "academic" dentistry. And I hate to break it to you, but in "real" dentistry, for most of us it's the business issues(from taxes to insurance to staff) that are the toughest things we do on a daily basis. And very often, very quickly after you're the person signing the checks for employees and paying Uncle Sam and seeing how hard you work for your $$ all the while seeing many an abuse of that very same system that YOU pay alot more $$ into than the majority of the population, it changes you. Add to it lately how you then get portrayed as the "bad guy" who must being doing something wrong and should be financially punished for simply living the american dream and working hard to be successful, and it REALLY can get to you. For the most part, we've walked a mile in your shoes (as a d-student), but you haven't walked a mile(yet) in our shoes (as a practice owner). Views change and frankly what we're doing is trying to warn you as a student, about things that are trying to be changed that very well could have a significant and adverse effect on your future lifestyle.
 
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Hate to tell you, I dont view students as uninformed idealists, but I view you as self righteous and clueless. Some day WHEN YOU GROW UP AND GET A JOB, and pay taxes, maybe you will understand. Good luck with your boards.

Speaking of self-righteous...

There comes a point, I'd hope, where adults can have a reasonably have policy discussions without assuming that the other side is "clueless."
 
Actually, no you're not.

You are able to care for one organ system of the body, while I am able to care for all organ systems of the body.

To equate a dentist to a doctor is misleading.

Dentists should be forced to accept government Medicare and Medicaid and should take pay cuts just like doctors are being forced to.

First: you see, we would do the same thing as doctors, as you suggest we should be compelled to--but if, as you've so kindly pointed out, we're not "real doctors," none of us feels particularly obligated to jump on this particular bandwagon.

Second: you're not able to care for anything right now. After administering a handful of general anesthetics at work today, managing EVERY organ system of my patients' bodies while they underwent the physiologic stresses associated with being cut open and operated on, you'll have to excuse me if I don't pay much attention to criticism from a kid who can't even give a patient Tylenol until someone like me signs the order.
 
Now oracle, you can think what you want about those of us in practice and our view of the world/Obamaland, but unless I'm vastly mistaken, or the direct view/understanding I get from current students at UCONN is completely different than those of *most* dental students out there, dental school still doesn't, and never really has adequately prepared one for the business side of dentistry(and I understand why with how much time is required for the dental education and how much extra time would be required for what realistically for many should be the equivalent of an MBA to adequately run a business that in many cases grosses over 7 figures a year.

What posters like myself, OceanDMD and Daurang, 3 practicing dentists in various parts of the country, will often try and convey to the students here is what you will likely see to some extent in "real" dentistry as opposed to what you see in the confines of "academic" dentistry. And I hate to break it to you, but in "real" dentistry, for most of us it's the business issues(from taxes to insurance to staff) that are the toughest things we do on a daily basis. And very often, very quickly after you're the person signing the checks for employees and paying Uncle Sam and seeing how hard you work for your $$ all the while seeing many an abuse of that very same system that YOU pay alot more $$ into than the majority of the population, it changes you. Add to it lately how you then get portrayed as the "bad guy" who must being doing something wrong and should be financially punished for simply living the american dream and working hard to be successful, and it REALLY can get to you. For the most part, we've walked a mile in your shoes (as a d-student), but you haven't walked a mile(yet) in our shoes (as a practice owner). Views change and frankly what we're doing is trying to warn you as a student, about things that are trying to be changed that very well could have a significant and adverse effect on your future lifestyle.

i agree. the buisness side of dentistry is a HUGE part of the profession that dental education has historically been unable to prepare students for because of the reasons you said. i am fairly educated to the buisness side of the profession. i also know how dentists hide income (legally or some legal appoximation that is close enough for those of moderate moral integrity). while dentists and their collegues of the same tax bracket pay the lions share of income tax, let us not forget about the loopholes, tax shelters, and opportunities that are available to small buisness owners in higher income brackets that are not available to lower brackets. the top 5% of american incomes comand 85% of the stock market which makes modest earnings (historically anyways) of which capital gains only account for 15% tax. how about real estate? you have the cash flow to speculate in real estate and disguise money there. how about paying your family members off of your payroll? you pay your kids college tuition through payroll thus disguising your actual income. you can set up programs for your employees which benefits them and you can dump money into those programs (401k matching , med flex accounts). how about running vehicles through your buisness so paying for your car is now not coming out of your "personal income tax".

i don't mean these examples to be accusatory. these are not examples that are really morally contemptable at all. these are very commonplace moves to my knowledge (at least 10 dentists that i know). these are people that play by the rules of the game so to speak. what i'm getting at is that peaching about tax law and discussions about tax brackets, doesn't give people an accurate picture about life at the top. yeah, the docs are right. you will pay through the nose when it comes to income tax after school. however a lot of people who cry foul at the tax bracket are simultaneously paying off their season tickets to their local sports team, or their timeshares, or their sports cars, or their big house.

again i don't mean everyone obviously. but there are a BUNCH! hahaha and good for them. i applaud people who reap the benefits of higher education, hard work, and good decisions. but i also refuse to listen to rants about how bad they get it from uncle sam.
 
Oracle, you replenish my faith in dentists and dental students. I'm so glad someone on this forum is well balanced and willing to do what's best for the common good of the country and not just his/her pocketbook. Thank you.

That's like saying MSNBC is well balanced and willing to do what's best for the common good.
 
i agree. the buisness side of dentistry is a HUGE part of the profession that dental education has historically been unable to prepare students for because of the reasons you said. i am fairly educated to the buisness side of the profession. i also know how dentists hide income (legally or some legal appoximation that is close enough for those of moderate moral integrity). while dentists and their collegues of the same tax bracket pay the lions share of income tax, let us not forget about the loopholes, tax shelters, and opportunities that are available to small buisness owners in higher income brackets that are not available to lower brackets. the top 5% of american incomes comand 85% of the stock market which makes modest earnings (historically anyways) of which capital gains only account for 15% tax. how about real estate? you have the cash flow to speculate in real estate and disguise money there. how about paying your family members off of your payroll? you pay your kids college tuition through payroll thus disguising your actual income. you can set up programs for your employees which benefits them and you can dump money into those programs (401k matching , med flex accounts). how about running vehicles through your buisness so paying for your car is now not coming out of your "personal income tax".

i don't mean these examples to be accusatory. these are not examples that are really morally contemptable at all. these are very commonplace moves to my knowledge (at least 10 dentists that i know). these are people that play by the rules of the game so to speak. what i'm getting at is that peaching about tax law and discussions about tax brackets, doesn't give people an accurate picture about life at the top. yeah, the docs are right. you will pay through the nose when it comes to income tax after school. however a lot of people who cry foul at the tax bracket are simultaneously paying off their season tickets to their local sports team, or their timeshares, or their sports cars, or their big house.

again i don't mean everyone obviously. but there are a BUNCH! hahaha and good for them. i applaud people who reap the benefits of higher education, hard work, and good decisions. but i also refuse to listen to rants about how bad they get it from uncle sam.

And a second glimmer of hope! I believe in you Oracle!
 
Actually, no you're not.

You are able to care for one organ system of the body, while I am able to care for all organ systems of the body.

To equate a dentist to a doctor is misleading.

Actually, to equate a physician to a doctor is misleading, because there are PhD doctors, juris doctors, and of course dental doctors. If you want to fully distinguish yourself, why not just call a physician a physician, instead of grouping yourself in with the rest of the doctors? That way, no one will ever be confused. Problem solved :laugh:

Anyway, before this thread gets over heated, shouldn't we atleast wait till the new healthcare plan is actually unveiled before we start tearing eachother apart?
 
Barack Obama is a crook...his HEALTHCARE PLAN IS SO FLAWED!!! so many americans in this country are naive and think that Obama will SAVE THEM...he is just a crook politician (he recieved a crapload of money from AIG during his campaign, and then he bails them out..coincedience??...i dont think so!)...He is a lawyer out to make things better for lawyers...he is probably jealous of doctors because he was TOO STUPID TO GET INTO MED SCHOOL (he got into harvard because of AA)...i HOPE HE DOESNT SCREW UP DENTISTRY..LUCKILY DENTISTS ARE SMART AND TAKE STRAIGHT UP CASH and this avoids bull**** insurance companies....all of you who think higher taxes are good: you guys GOT A LOT of growing up to do! The government doesn't care about poor people and NEITHER DOES BARACK OBAMA

I find this post very immature; Please get your facts straight before opening your boca... President Obama is an outstanding person at heart. The problem lies within the people wanting to become dentists...Ask yourself - Why do you want to become a dentist? Most people that are anti-Obama would say, "MONEY!!".....contrary to that, I'd like to help underserved and underpopulated areas both abroad and on our mainland. God's gifts are greater than any amount of money any of us could ever earn as a dentist, doctor, lawyer, you name it...I hope you get used to Obama...cuz he's gonna be Pres. til 2016!!!! haha:laugh::laugh:
 
I find this post very immature; Please get your facts straight before opening your boca... President Obama is an outstanding person at heart. The problem lies within the people wanting to become dentists...Ask yourself - Why do you want to become a dentist? Most people that are anti-Obama would say, "MONEY!!".....contrary to that, I'd like to help underserved and underpopulated areas both abroad and on our mainland. God's gifts are greater than any amount of money any of us could ever earn as a dentist, doctor, lawyer, you name it...I hope you get used to Obama...cuz he's gonna be Pres. til 2016!!!! haha:laugh::laugh:

What is the problem with people having money? There is nothing wrong with having a lucrative dental practice. Money is great thing to have. However, with that money comes great responsibility. Responsibilities the government should have no part in. The money anyone makes is given to him as a stewardship, a stewardship the government should not be allowed to meddle with. Obama continues to overstep his bounds. The minute the government steps in and tries to fix things their way, our liberties go out the door with their repairs. God intends for us to do the best we can. If He allows us to receive large amounts of money then it is our responsibility out of our own free will to take care of our neighbors. When the government forces us to do so with heavy taxes, the natural reaction of every freedom loving America, or anyone for that matter, is to rebel. All the choices Obama has made in office have been detrimental to individual freedoms. These very actions, such as bailing out the auto industry, the attempt to Nationalize Banks by forcing them to take stimulus money, are the problems the Founding Fathers warned about at the founding this nation. The same thing (Nationalization of Banks) was attempted in their days by Alexander Hamilton, which Thomas Jefferson fought vehemently against, and again in Andrew Jackson's term in office.

The moment you force people to submit without their consent, you will have a great deal of contention on your hands. This is the same reason why the American Revolution happened, taxation without representation. This country was founded on keeping the government out of our personal lives. I, and whole lot of other Americans, want to keep it that way.
 
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Oracle, have you ever treated any of the supposed poor people in our country? Once you see enough of them, you realize that the poor in America live like kings compared to the truly destitute in the rest of the world. When you hear your first patient come in and tell you that she is contemplating getting a job but leaning against it because she'd lose all her government benefits for herself and her unborn kid, then you have to wonder what went wrong in Washington and what are they really doing with all those taxes you sent them.
 
Okay, before all the big pro Obamacare supporters are ready to start calling their elected officials and encourage them to vote for this behemoth. I want you to carefully read this text from Wednesday nights "Obama-mercial" and as you doing so, think of yourself, not as a d-student but as a person holding a doctorate who is giving care and also presumably as someone who has living parents who will be aging in this proposed system:

Transcript taken from Rush Limbaugh's site(just try and ignore Rush's commentary and read the questions posed to the president and his verbatim answers:
"RUSH: Let's go to one of the most interesting exchanges in the infomercial last night. And ABC's Jake Tapper, in describing this, says: "President Obama struggled Wednesday to explain whether his health care reform proposals would force normal Americans to make sacrifices that wealthier, more powerful people -- like the president himself -- wouldn't face. The probing questions came from two skeptical neurologists" during the ABC News infomercial on Obama healthcare reform. And the first question that we're referring to here is Dr. Orrin Devinsky. He's a New York neurosurgeon. He asked this question of President Obama: "If your wife or your daughter became seriously ill and things were not going well and the plan physicians told you they were doing everything that could be done and you sought out opinions from some medical leaders in major centers and they said, 'There's another option that you should pursue,' but it wasn't covered in your plan, would you potentially sacrifice the health of your family for the greater good of insuring millions, or would you do everything possible as a father and husband to get the best healthcare and outcome for your family?"

Let me translate the question. A neurosurgeon asked Obama: "Okay, you've got the healthcare plan that you're going to prescribe for everybody else. Your wife or your daughter comes down with a major illness. Your plan goes through the diagnosis. And then you find out that there's some other doctor out there somewhere with another procedure and another form of treatment, another opinion, but your plan doesn't cover it. Are you going to stick with the plan you forced on everybody else, or are you going to use your wealth and go outside the plan to get the treatment for your wife and daughter that other people are not going to be able to do because they don't have the money?'' That's the question. He did not answer it. Obama: "You're absolutely right. That if it's my family member, uh, if it's my wife, if it's my children, if it's my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care. But here's the problem that we have in our current healthcare system, is that there is a whole bunch of care that's being provided that every study, every bit of evidence that we have indicates may not be making us healthier."

All he did there was admit: "Yeah, I want the best healthcare possible." Well, so the hell does everybody else! That wasn't the question. The question was: "Are you going to go outside the plan that you have prescribed for everybody?" See, the dirty little secret is he's going to be exempt from the plan, as are all members of Congress. The question was a good one: "Are you going to go outside the plan if you find a better doctor, better treatment that your plan doesn't cover?" "You're right. I'd go get the best care I could. I want the best care." Then comes this irrelevant, non sequitur answer: That we have a bunch of care that's being provided that may not be making us healthier. Folks, I'm telling you, the answer to this question you need to focus on: Obama is looking to cut healthcare. He's looking to cut it because that's the only way he can keep costs where they are or reduce them, which is not going to happen anyway. We have the best healthcare system in this country and he's going to restrict access to it, as a means of saving money.

That's the only way he can do it. So he wouldn't answer the good doctor's question. The answer to the question is, for President Obama: "Yeah, I'm going to use the wealth I've acquired and I'm going to go get the best treatment I can." But the vast majority of Americans will not be able to do that because they aren't going to be able to afford it. They're going to be stuck in a plan that doesn't everything they might need, and Obama's answer is: "Well, maybe you don't need the treatment. Maybe you don't. Maybe your quality of life is such you don't need it anyway. We'll save money." Next question. Member of the audience. Jane Sturm: "My mother is now over 105. But at 100, the doctors said to her, 'I can't do anything more unless you have a pacemaker.' I said, 'Go for it.' She said, 'Go for it.' But the specialist said, 'No, she's too old.' But when the other specialist saw her and saw her joy of life, he said, 'I'm going for it.' That was over five years ago. My question to you is: Outside the medical criteria for prolonging life for somebody who is elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, a quality of life, or is it just a medical cutoff at a certain age?"


Obama: "I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's 'spirit.' Uh, that would be, uh, a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that, uh, say that, uh, we are going to provide good quality care for all people. End-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we're going to have to make. But understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers. At least we can let doctors know -- and your mom know -- that you know what, maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off, uhh, not having the surgery, but, uhh, taking the painkiller." Do you realize how cold and heartless that answer is? This woman is asking about her mother. And everywhere she went, except one doctor, refused to put in the pacemaker. "Nah, she's too old; she's going to die anyway."

So they found a specialist: "Maybe this woman really loves living. I'll put it in." She's lived five years with the pacemaker, and still Obama: "Maybe you're better off to tell your mother to take a pill, take a painkiller." See, we have to have rules. "We have to have rules. Your mother should have died five years ago, lady. She would have been better off taking that painkiller."
Who says we have to have his rules? The President of the United States is not a king. He's not an autocrat. He's not a ruler. He doesn't get to set the rules. Obama has taken it upon himself to do so. This woman found a way to get her mother a pacemaker. With Obamacare, you just heard the answer: It wouldn't have happened. I know how this stuff works."

Under this plan, it won't be the patient/docs making all of your healthcare descisions, heck it won't even just be patients/docs/insurance companies now we get to add the gov't into the descision making process of what healthcare one will be allowed to get. Think about it
 
Speaking of self-righteous...

There comes a point, I'd hope, where adults can have a reasonably have policy discussions without assuming that the other side is "clueless."


Your right. That was probably uncalled for. Sorry Oracle. I really did mean good luck though. I'll stick to bashing our commander in chief.
 
Okay, before all the big pro Obamacare supporters are ready to start calling their elected officials and encourage them to vote for this behemoth. I want you to carefully read this text from Wednesday nights "Obama-mercial" and as you doing so, think of yourself, not as a d-student but as a person holding a doctorate who is giving care and also presumably as someone who has living parents who will be aging in this proposed system:

Transcript taken from Rush Limbaugh's site(just try and ignore Rush's commentary and read the questions posed to the president and his verbatim answers:
"RUSH: Let's go to one of the most interesting exchanges in the infomercial last night. And ABC's Jake Tapper, in describing this, says: "President Obama struggled Wednesday to explain whether his health care reform proposals would force normal Americans to make sacrifices that wealthier, more powerful people -- like the president himself -- wouldn't face. The probing questions came from two skeptical neurologists" during the ABC News infomercial on Obama healthcare reform. And the first question that we're referring to here is Dr. Orrin Devinsky. He's a New York neurosurgeon. He asked this question of President Obama: "If your wife or your daughter became seriously ill and things were not going well and the plan physicians told you they were doing everything that could be done and you sought out opinions from some medical leaders in major centers and they said, 'There's another option that you should pursue,' but it wasn't covered in your plan, would you potentially sacrifice the health of your family for the greater good of insuring millions, or would you do everything possible as a father and husband to get the best healthcare and outcome for your family?"

Let me translate the question. A neurosurgeon asked Obama: "Okay, you've got the healthcare plan that you're going to prescribe for everybody else. Your wife or your daughter comes down with a major illness. Your plan goes through the diagnosis. And then you find out that there's some other doctor out there somewhere with another procedure and another form of treatment, another opinion, but your plan doesn't cover it. Are you going to stick with the plan you forced on everybody else, or are you going to use your wealth and go outside the plan to get the treatment for your wife and daughter that other people are not going to be able to do because they don't have the money?'' That's the question. He did not answer it. Obama: "You're absolutely right. That if it's my family member, uh, if it's my wife, if it's my children, if it's my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care. But here's the problem that we have in our current healthcare system, is that there is a whole bunch of care that's being provided that every study, every bit of evidence that we have indicates may not be making us healthier."

All he did there was admit: "Yeah, I want the best healthcare possible." Well, so the hell does everybody else! That wasn't the question. The question was: "Are you going to go outside the plan that you have prescribed for everybody?" See, the dirty little secret is he's going to be exempt from the plan, as are all members of Congress. The question was a good one: "Are you going to go outside the plan if you find a better doctor, better treatment that your plan doesn't cover?" "You're right. I'd go get the best care I could. I want the best care." Then comes this irrelevant, non sequitur answer: That we have a bunch of care that's being provided that may not be making us healthier. Folks, I'm telling you, the answer to this question you need to focus on: Obama is looking to cut healthcare. He's looking to cut it because that's the only way he can keep costs where they are or reduce them, which is not going to happen anyway. We have the best healthcare system in this country and he's going to restrict access to it, as a means of saving money.

That's the only way he can do it. So he wouldn't answer the good doctor's question. The answer to the question is, for President Obama: "Yeah, I'm going to use the wealth I've acquired and I'm going to go get the best treatment I can." But the vast majority of Americans will not be able to do that because they aren't going to be able to afford it. They're going to be stuck in a plan that doesn't everything they might need, and Obama's answer is: "Well, maybe you don't need the treatment. Maybe you don't. Maybe your quality of life is such you don't need it anyway. We'll save money." Next question. Member of the audience. Jane Sturm: "My mother is now over 105. But at 100, the doctors said to her, 'I can't do anything more unless you have a pacemaker.' I said, 'Go for it.' She said, 'Go for it.' But the specialist said, 'No, she's too old.' But when the other specialist saw her and saw her joy of life, he said, 'I'm going for it.' That was over five years ago. My question to you is: Outside the medical criteria for prolonging life for somebody who is elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, a quality of life, or is it just a medical cutoff at a certain age?"


Obama: "I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's 'spirit.' Uh, that would be, uh, a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that, uh, say that, uh, we are going to provide good quality care for all people. End-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we're going to have to make. But understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers. At least we can let doctors know -- and your mom know -- that you know what, maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off, uhh, not having the surgery, but, uhh, taking the painkiller." Do you realize how cold and heartless that answer is? This woman is asking about her mother. And everywhere she went, except one doctor, refused to put in the pacemaker. "Nah, she's too old; she's going to die anyway."

So they found a specialist: "Maybe this woman really loves living. I'll put it in." She's lived five years with the pacemaker, and still Obama: "Maybe you're better off to tell your mother to take a pill, take a painkiller." See, we have to have rules. "We have to have rules. Your mother should have died five years ago, lady. She would have been better off taking that painkiller."
Who says we have to have his rules? The President of the United States is not a king. He's not an autocrat. He's not a ruler. He doesn't get to set the rules. Obama has taken it upon himself to do so. This woman found a way to get her mother a pacemaker. With Obamacare, you just heard the answer: It wouldn't have happened. I know how this stuff works."

Under this plan, it won't be the patient/docs making all of your healthcare descisions, heck it won't even just be patients/docs/insurance companies now we get to add the gov't into the descision making process of what healthcare one will be allowed to get. Think about it


I cant see how this doesn't fill you with rage. Obama is going too far. He is trying to tell us how to run every aspect in our lives. How much money we should make, what cars we should drive, what companies can put in their products, and how we seek our healthcare. People need to wake up before everything is ruined.
 
Okay, before all the big pro Obamacare supporters are ready to start calling their elected officials and encourage them to vote for this behemoth. I want you to carefully read this text from Wednesday nights "Obama-mercial" and as you doing so, think of yourself, not as a d-student but as a person holding a doctorate who is giving care and also presumably as someone who has living parents who will be aging in this proposed system:

Transcript taken from Rush Limbaugh's site(just try and ignore Rush's commentary and read the questions posed to the president and his verbatim answers:
"RUSH: Let's go to one of the most interesting exchanges in the infomercial last night. And ABC's Jake Tapper, in describing this, says: "President Obama struggled Wednesday to explain whether his health care reform proposals would force normal Americans to make sacrifices that wealthier, more powerful people -- like the president himself -- wouldn't face. The probing questions came from two skeptical neurologists" during the ABC News infomercial on Obama healthcare reform. And the first question that we're referring to here is Dr. Orrin Devinsky. He's a New York neurosurgeon. He asked this question of President Obama: "If your wife or your daughter became seriously ill and things were not going well and the plan physicians told you they were doing everything that could be done and you sought out opinions from some medical leaders in major centers and they said, 'There's another option that you should pursue,' but it wasn't covered in your plan, would you potentially sacrifice the health of your family for the greater good of insuring millions, or would you do everything possible as a father and husband to get the best healthcare and outcome for your family?"

Let me translate the question. A neurosurgeon asked Obama: "Okay, you've got the healthcare plan that you're going to prescribe for everybody else. Your wife or your daughter comes down with a major illness. Your plan goes through the diagnosis. And then you find out that there's some other doctor out there somewhere with another procedure and another form of treatment, another opinion, but your plan doesn't cover it. Are you going to stick with the plan you forced on everybody else, or are you going to use your wealth and go outside the plan to get the treatment for your wife and daughter that other people are not going to be able to do because they don't have the money?'' That's the question. He did not answer it. Obama: "You're absolutely right. That if it's my family member, uh, if it's my wife, if it's my children, if it's my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care. But here's the problem that we have in our current healthcare system, is that there is a whole bunch of care that's being provided that every study, every bit of evidence that we have indicates may not be making us healthier."

All he did there was admit: "Yeah, I want the best healthcare possible." Well, so the hell does everybody else! That wasn't the question. The question was: "Are you going to go outside the plan that you have prescribed for everybody?" See, the dirty little secret is he's going to be exempt from the plan, as are all members of Congress. The question was a good one: "Are you going to go outside the plan if you find a better doctor, better treatment that your plan doesn't cover?" "You're right. I'd go get the best care I could. I want the best care." Then comes this irrelevant, non sequitur answer: That we have a bunch of care that's being provided that may not be making us healthier. Folks, I'm telling you, the answer to this question you need to focus on: Obama is looking to cut healthcare. He's looking to cut it because that's the only way he can keep costs where they are or reduce them, which is not going to happen anyway. We have the best healthcare system in this country and he's going to restrict access to it, as a means of saving money.

That's the only way he can do it. So he wouldn't answer the good doctor's question. The answer to the question is, for President Obama: "Yeah, I'm going to use the wealth I've acquired and I'm going to go get the best treatment I can." But the vast majority of Americans will not be able to do that because they aren't going to be able to afford it. They're going to be stuck in a plan that doesn't everything they might need, and Obama's answer is: "Well, maybe you don't need the treatment. Maybe you don't. Maybe your quality of life is such you don't need it anyway. We'll save money." Next question. Member of the audience. Jane Sturm: "My mother is now over 105. But at 100, the doctors said to her, 'I can't do anything more unless you have a pacemaker.' I said, 'Go for it.' She said, 'Go for it.' But the specialist said, 'No, she's too old.' But when the other specialist saw her and saw her joy of life, he said, 'I'm going for it.' That was over five years ago. My question to you is: Outside the medical criteria for prolonging life for somebody who is elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, a quality of life, or is it just a medical cutoff at a certain age?"


Obama: "I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's 'spirit.' Uh, that would be, uh, a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that, uh, say that, uh, we are going to provide good quality care for all people. End-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we're going to have to make. But understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers. At least we can let doctors know -- and your mom know -- that you know what, maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off, uhh, not having the surgery, but, uhh, taking the painkiller." Do you realize how cold and heartless that answer is? This woman is asking about her mother. And everywhere she went, except one doctor, refused to put in the pacemaker. "Nah, she's too old; she's going to die anyway."

So they found a specialist: "Maybe this woman really loves living. I'll put it in." She's lived five years with the pacemaker, and still Obama: "Maybe you're better off to tell your mother to take a pill, take a painkiller." See, we have to have rules. "We have to have rules. Your mother should have died five years ago, lady. She would have been better off taking that painkiller."
Who says we have to have his rules? The President of the United States is not a king. He's not an autocrat. He's not a ruler. He doesn't get to set the rules. Obama has taken it upon himself to do so. This woman found a way to get her mother a pacemaker. With Obamacare, you just heard the answer: It wouldn't have happened. I know how this stuff works."

Under this plan, it won't be the patient/docs making all of your healthcare descisions, heck it won't even just be patients/docs/insurance companies now we get to add the gov't into the descision making process of what healthcare one will be allowed to get. Think about it

well first off, i have to laugh because you brought rush into it. haha maybe rush could of added sniffs to the "uh's" to help get the effect tht he wanted! haha
but seriously.
1. obama is right. people will do what ever it takes to get the best healthcare for their loved ones. but the search for the best possible healthcare isn't making the country healthier, because so many dont get to see a doctor at all.
2. end of life care is a tricky thing, but once again, obama is right! we can not judge "spirit". heck, even 2 of that lady's previus docs didn't want to give her a pacemaker. not because "ahh. she'll die anyway." i bet it was more that she might very well not survive the surgery. anyways, something like 80% of healthcare goes to the last 20% of life.

rush is so much more than a bloated, pill popping, drama queen. he's wrong!

example a)"Are you going to stick with the plan you forced on everybody else, or are you going to use your wealth and go outside the plan to get the treatment"
- there is no way (and no reason to) stop rich people from using their wealth to obtain what they want within legal boundaries. this isnt even an issue! and it has nothing to do with people that have nothing at all.

example b) "Obama is looking to cut healthcare. We have the best healthcare system in this country and he's going to restrict access to it, as a means of saving money."
- again, this is ridiculous. another gem from mr. limbaugh. haha. bringing healthcare to everyone isn't exactly what i'd call "cutting healthcare" best heathcare system???? there is absolutly nothing to justify this statement. we have the most advanced healthcare technology and research but that is a far cry from "the best healthcare system". according to the WHO we are about 37th! right behind costa rica and denmark, but ahead of slovenia! http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

please refrain from any future rush references. it really is completely useless. except maybe for a few laughs!
 
I cant see how this doesn't fill you with rage. Obama is going too far. He is trying to tell us how to run every aspect in our lives. How much money we should make, what cars we should drive, what companies can put in their products, and how we seek our healthcare. People need to wake up before everything is ruined.

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free...it expects what never was and never will be." Thomas Jefferson
 
i agree. the buisness side of dentistry is a HUGE part of the profession that dental education has historically been unable to prepare students for because of the reasons you said. i am fairly educated to the buisness side of the profession. i also know how dentists hide income (legally or some legal appoximation that is close enough for those of moderate moral integrity). while dentists and their collegues of the same tax bracket pay the lions share of income tax, let us not forget about the loopholes, tax shelters, and opportunities that are available to small buisness owners in higher income brackets that are not available to lower brackets. the top 5% of american incomes comand 85% of the stock market which makes modest earnings (historically anyways) of which capital gains only account for 15% tax. how about real estate? you have the cash flow to speculate in real estate and disguise money there. how about paying your family members off of your payroll? you pay your kids college tuition through payroll thus disguising your actual income. you can set up programs for your employees which benefits them and you can dump money into those programs (401k matching , med flex accounts). how about running vehicles through your buisness so paying for your car is now not coming out of your "personal income tax".

i don't mean these examples to be accusatory. these are not examples that are really morally contemptable at all. these are very commonplace moves to my knowledge (at least 10 dentists that i know). these are people that play by the rules of the game so to speak. what i'm getting at is that peaching about tax law and discussions about tax brackets, doesn't give people an accurate picture about life at the top. yeah, the docs are right. you will pay through the nose when it comes to income tax after school. however a lot of people who cry foul at the tax bracket are simultaneously paying off their season tickets to their local sports team, or their timeshares, or their sports cars, or their big house.

again i don't mean everyone obviously. but there are a BUNCH! hahaha and good for them. i applaud people who reap the benefits of higher education, hard work, and good decisions. but i also refuse to listen to rants about how bad they get it from uncle sam.

We haveyour picture! REporting you to the IRS! 25% up to your income bracket for capital gains less than 1 year of investment
 
I cant see how this doesn't fill you with rage. Obama is going too far. He is trying to tell us how to run every aspect in our lives. How much money we should make, what cars we should drive, what companies can put in their products, and how we seek our healthcare. People need to wake up before everything is ruined.

what are you talking about??? hahaha are you sending this transmission from your doomsday bunker? haha from a labtop running on diesel?

what companies put in their products should go unregulated? thats crazy talk.

how we seek healthcare? if by you mean that it'll be easier to find and get for the broad majority of america then yes, he wants to change "seeking healthcare" to "GETTING heathcare".

people are awake...that's why he was elected and will most lkely be re-elected.
 
As I said before, if the government is forcing doctors to take public health insurance, dentists should be forced to as well.

Dentists should not be able to charge cash to patients if doctors can't. Period.
 
well first off, i have to laugh because you brought rush into it. haha maybe rush could of added sniffs to the "uh's" to help get the effect tht he wanted! haha
but seriously.
1. obama is right. people will do what ever it takes to get the best healthcare for their loved ones. but the search for the best possible healthcare isn't making the country healthier, because so many dont get to see a doctor at all.
2. end of life care is a tricky thing, but once again, obama is right! we can not judge "spirit". heck, even 2 of that lady's previus docs didn't want to give her a pacemaker. not because "ahh. she'll die anyway." i bet it was more that she might very well not survive the surgery. anyways, something like 80% of healthcare goes to the last 20% of life.

rush is so much more than a bloated, pill popping, drama queen. he's wrong!

example a)"Are you going to stick with the plan you forced on everybody else, or are you going to use your wealth and go outside the plan to get the treatment"
- there is no way (and no reason to) stop rich people from using their wealth to obtain what they want within legal boundaries. this isnt even an issue! and it has nothing to do with people that have nothing at all.

example b) "Obama is looking to cut healthcare. We have the best healthcare system in this country and he's going to restrict access to it, as a means of saving money."
- again, this is ridiculous. another gem from mr. limbaugh. haha. bringing healthcare to everyone isn't exactly what i'd call "cutting healthcare" best heathcare system???? there is absolutly nothing to justify this statement. we have the most advanced healthcare technology and research but that is a far cry from "the best healthcare system". according to the WHO we are about 37th! right behind costa rica and denmark, but ahead of slovenia! http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

please refrain from any future rush references. it really is completely useless. except maybe for a few laughs!

Only reason I pulled the text off Rush's site is that's the only text version I could find. Heard it 1st (less Rush's commentary) when I went and listened t/watched the entire thing on youtube after hearing some rumbling on Fox about it. God only knows that you WON'T see any text/video of Obama basically advocating that for end of life senior citizens (read as the basic AARP block of voters) that they very well under his proposed system see medical decesions about how long/well they may live at the end of their lives being made by Washington and not one's Doctor, appearing on ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN.

As for cutting healthcare access/costs. Seriously, given the current amount of docs/associated staff/facilities, how will the system be able to handle the 30+ million extra folks without having to ration some care and then pay for it??? Or what is this just going to be some big grand plan without any concept of how to pull it off, heck it's not like folks might actually want touse this thing if it gets passed???
 
i agree. the buisness side of dentistry is a HUGE part of the profession that dental education has historically been unable to prepare students for because of the reasons you said. i am fairly educated to the buisness side of the profession. i also know how dentists hide income (legally or some legal appoximation that is close enough for those of moderate moral integrity). while dentists and their collegues of the same tax bracket pay the lions share of income tax, let us not forget about the loopholes, tax shelters, and opportunities that are available to small buisness owners in higher income brackets that are not available to lower brackets. the top 5% of american incomes comand 85% of the stock market which makes modest earnings (historically anyways) of which capital gains only account for 15% tax. how about real estate? you have the cash flow to speculate in real estate and disguise money there. how about paying your family members off of your payroll? you pay your kids college tuition through payroll thus disguising your actual income. you can set up programs for your employees which benefits them and you can dump money into those programs (401k matching , med flex accounts). how about running vehicles through your buisness so paying for your car is now not coming out of your "personal income tax".

i don't mean these examples to be accusatory. these are not examples that are really morally contemptable at all. these are very commonplace moves to my knowledge (at least 10 dentists that i know). these are people that play by the rules of the game so to speak. what i'm getting at is that peaching about tax law and discussions about tax brackets, doesn't give people an accurate picture about life at the top. yeah, the docs are right. you will pay through the nose when it comes to income tax after school. however a lot of people who cry foul at the tax bracket are simultaneously paying off their season tickets to their local sports team, or their timeshares, or their sports cars, or their big house.

again i don't mean everyone obviously. but there are a BUNCH! hahaha and good for them. i applaud people who reap the benefits of higher education, hard work, and good decisions. but i also refuse to listen to rants about how bad they get it from uncle sam.

So now people who have worked their butts off to become financially sucessful are bad people for abiding by the law???:wtf:
 
Only reason I pulled the text off Rush's site is that's the only text version I could find. Heard it 1st (less Rush's commentary) when I went and listened t/watched the entire thing on youtube after hearing some rumbling on Fox about it. God only knows that you WON'T see any text/video of Obama basically advocating that for end of life senior citizens (read as the basic AARP block of voters) that they very well under his proposed system see medical decesions about how long/well they may live at the end of their lives being made by Washington and not one's Doctor, appearing on ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN.

As for cutting healthcare access/costs. Seriously, given the current amount of docs/associated staff/facilities, how will the system be able to handle the 30+ million extra folks without having to ration some care and then pay for it??? Or what is this just going to be some big grand plan without any concept of how to pull it off, heck it's not like folks might actually want touse this thing if it gets passed???

Too much emotion, not enough common sense. Reality: Medicine, with all of its advances, treatment options and the business end of it, is more than a society that has come to expect "miracles" can pay/afford. Just like our current reality check with the rest of our economy, we need to start spending wisely and within our means- yes, ration. You don't expect to be driving a Ferrari (cost of a procedure)by making payments for a Chevy Malibu (monthly premium), yet our personal emotions/attachments somehow rationalizes that a 100 year old lady with an actuarial risk no one in Vegas is willing to take, gets a pacemaker costing more than a Ferrari. And this is on Medicare dollars. And what happened to mentioning the other 90+ yr olds who also got a pacer and did not survive the procedure or beyond the 5 year battery life of the pacer?
Obama is right when he said that the current state of health care is untenable. Is government intervention the answer? Its easy to argue that government leads to more bureaucracy (bad) and possibly less efficiency (bad), and rationing (necessary), but where else can it come from? Insurance companies that need to show INCREASING profits (not just "some" profit) year over year? To do that they would have to increase income (raise premiums= bad) and/or decrease expenses (decrease reimbursements to doctors and hospitals- not liking this part are you?). Those of you who don't like lawyers, are falling for the same emotinal arguments that lead to crazy multi million dollar judgements. If it was your mother..daughter, etc. What is your right arm worth if I were to cut it off on a 3 ton press right now?? A million? two? ten? As long as you continue to keep emotion and business as the untouchable centerpieces of Medicine, you will never solve anything.
 
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What is the problem with people having money? There is nothing wrong with having a lucrative dental practice. Money is great thing to have. However, with that money comes great responsibility. Responsibilities the government should have no part in. The money anyone makes is given to him as a stewardship, a stewardship the government should not be allowed to meddle with. Obama continues to overstep his bounds. The minute the government steps in and tries to fix things their way, our liberties go out the door with their repairs. God intends for us to do the best we can. If He allows us to receive large amounts of money then it is our responsibility out of our own free will to take care of our neighbors. When the government forces us to do so with heavy taxes, the natural reaction of every freedom loving America, or anyone for that matter, is to rebel. All the choices Obama has made in office have been detrimental to individual freedoms. These very actions, such as bailing out the auto industry, the attempt to Nationalize Banks by forcing them to take stimulus money, are the problems the Founding Fathers warned about at the founding this nation. The same thing (Nationalization of Banks) was attempted in their days by Alexander Hamilton, which Thomas Jefferson fought vehemently against, and again in Andrew Jackson's term in office.

The moment you force people to submit without their consent, you will have a great deal of contention on your hands. This is the same reason why the American Revolution happened, taxation without representation. This country was founded on keeping the government out of our personal lives. I, and whole lot of other Americans, want to keep it that way.


okay look - this is the kinda person i like talking to! you are a very well educated individual and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING about. I parallel your beliefs...almost perfectly lol...ofcourse there is nothing wrong with making money, its just, it really irritates me when some people go into healthcare for strictly that reason..I dont think we are lead and driven into this path of life by accident;)


Moreover, it really just irritates me when people bash Obama and have nothing to prove their argument whatsoever - you did great to be honest! lol!

I do fully agree that we the people should have the right to do whatever we want with our hard earned money, and the plans WRITTEN (certainly not implemented, yet) are a little scary to those making over the 250k/yr, with the American Recovery & Reinvestment act, etc. etc. ...

I just want to stress that I think individuals that go into medicine and dentistry with the strict one belief of wanting to become rich is very risky...I think that these professions are 110% for helping people, and when money becomes the prime focus over the people, bad things are going to happen...
 
less than 1 year investment. got it. thanks for the additional info.
IRS Headquarters Address:

10th St & Pennsylvania Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20004

lol ur hilar!:laugh::laugh: this posts makes me laugh so hard lol you are a stud
 
Too much emotion, not enough common sense. Reality: Medicine, with all of its advances, treatment options and the business end of it, is more than a society that has come to expect "miracles" can pay/afford. Just like our current reality check with the rest of our economy, we need to start spending wisely and within our means- yes, ration. You don't expect to be driving a Ferrari (cost of a procedure)by making payments for a Chevy Malibu (monthly premium), yet our personal emotions/attachments somehow rationalizes that a 100 year old lady with an actuarial risk no one in Vegas is willing to take, gets a pacemaker costing more than a Ferrari. And this is on Medicare dollars. And what happened to mentioning the other 90+ yr olds who also got a pacer and did not survive the procedure or beyond the 5 year battery life of the pacer?
Obama is right when he said that the current state of health care is untenable. Is government intervention the answer? Its easy to argue that government leads to more bureaucracy (bad) and possibly less efficiency (bad), and rationing (necessary), but where else can it come from? Insurance companies that need to show INCREASING profits (not just "some" profit) year over year? To do that they would have to increase income (raise premiums= bad) and/or decrease expenses (decrease reimbursements to doctors and hospitals- not liking this part are you?). Those of you who don't like lawyers, are falling for the same emotinal arguments that lead to crazy multi million dollar judgements. If it was your mother..daughter, etc. What is your right arm worth if I were to cut it off on a 3 ton press right now?? A million? two? ten? As long as you continue to keep emotion and business as the untouchable centerpieces of Medicine, you will never solve anything.

keeping with the car analogy, lets say everyone in america needs a car. its important, it gets our kids to school, us to work and grocery store, it is an interegal part of life. yeah there's public transit, but that only works in cities, not so much everywere else. plus it goes where it goes so you better hope its going your way!

so we could put 30% of the country in bentleys and maseratis and jags, or we could get the entire country in toyotas. toyotas are not as sexy. not as fast. not as powerful. but it sure is more effiecient and functional, and everyone can get one.

but hey! we can get high end sports cars here in america! why should we deliver sub-par toyotas to the lazy people who can't find a way to get a bentley? answer: not having a car at all is subpar. and you can still really deck out your toyota w/ all the crazy custom gear if your rich.


please no american car company reference in opposition...its too predictable! :laugh:
 
keeping with the car analogy, lets say everyone in america needs a car. its important, it gets our kids to school, us to work and grocery store, it is an interegal part of life. yeah there's public transit, but that only works in cities, not so much everywere else. plus it goes where it goes so you better hope its going your way!

so we could put 30% of the country in bentleys and maseratis and jags, or we could get the entire country in toyotas. toyotas are not as sexy. not as fast. not as powerful. but it sure is more effiecient and functional, and everyone can get one.

but hey! we can get high end sports cars here in america! why should we deliver sub-par toyotas to the lazy people who can't find a way to get a bentley? answer: not having a car at all is subpar. and you can still really deck out your toyota w/ all the crazy custom gear if your rich.


please no american car company reference in opposition...its too predictable! :laugh:

Very much where it will all end up, with Obama or any subsequent president. Two or multi-tiered delivery system based on hard numbers crunching by crazy smart/ non emotional actuaries who understand morbidity/ mortality risk-benefit models similar to life insurance models (only mortality) that no one has a problem with.
 
keeping with the car analogy, lets say everyone in america needs a car. its important, it gets our kids to school, us to work and grocery store, it is an interegal part of life. yeah there's public transit, but that only works in cities, not so much everywere else. plus it goes where it goes so you better hope its going your way!

so we could put 30% of the country in bentleys and maseratis and jags, or we could get the entire country in toyotas. toyotas are not as sexy. not as fast. not as powerful. but it sure is more effiecient and functional, and everyone can get one.

but hey! we can get high end sports cars here in america! why should we deliver sub-par toyotas to the lazy people who can't find a way to get a bentley? answer: not having a car at all is subpar. and you can still really deck out your toyota w/ all the crazy custom gear if your rich.


please no american car company reference in opposition...its too predictable! :laugh:


I guess (sticking with you analogies) we should all live in the same size house. I mean, those 4 person families living in 4000 square feet is ridiculous! It takes more fuel to build those homes, and more strain on the environment. 4 person families can easily be accomodated in 1200 suare feet. The rich people can just buy better appliances. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, even the lazy people.

And what is it with these rich people using so much electricity? Two and three computers in their homes. I think they should have a weekly limit on wattage. Everyone can be accomodated with a particular KWh per week. No more private energy bills. We will take it out of your taxes and make sure you turn your lights out when you leave the house.

And finally (back to the thread topic) healthcare. You old people. I dont care how healthy you are. I dont care that your mom and your dad both lived to 105, and beore the injury your handicap was a 10. You are over 68. The government plan will not pay for your knee replacement. It doesnt make sense to give a knee to an adult male with a life expectancy of 74. I mean, we need to cut costs on you old people. Jim Bob who is 43 needs a lung. If we have to keep treating you old people, we cant pay for Jim Bob's lung (who has smoked for 25 years).

I could go on and on. Its simply called socialism. Apparently/obviously you are an advocate.
 
I guess (sticking with you analogies) we should all live in the same size house. I mean, those 4 person families living in 4000 square feet is ridiculous! It takes more fuel to build those homes, and more strain on the environment. 4 person families can easily be accomodated in 1200 suare feet. The rich people can just buy better appliances. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, even the lazy people.

And what is it with these rich people using so much electricity? Two and three computers in their homes. I think they should have a weekly limit on wattage. Everyone can be accomodated with a particular KWh per week. No more private energy bills. We will take it out of your taxes and make sure you turn your lights out when you leave the house.

And finally (back to the thread topic) healthcare. You old people. I dont care how healthy you are. I dont care that your mom and your dad both lived to 105, and beore the injury your handicap was a 10. You are over 68. The government plan will not pay for your knee replacement. It doesnt make sense to give a knee to an adult male with a life expectancy of 74. I mean, we need to cut costs on you old people. Jim Bob who is 43 needs a lung. If we have to keep treating you old people, we cant pay for Jim Bob's lung (who has smoked for 25 years).

I could go on and on. Its simply called socialism. Apparently/obviously you are an advocate.

Cynical reasoning and name calling ("socialism") adds nothing here. For example: Jim Bob the smoker or Joe Bob, the none smoker?
 
I guess (sticking with you analogies) we should all live in the same size house. I mean, those 4 person families living in 4000 square feet is ridiculous! It takes more fuel to build those homes, and more strain on the environment. 4 person families can easily be accomodated in 1200 suare feet. The rich people can just buy better appliances. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, even the lazy people.

And what is it with these rich people using so much electricity? Two and three computers in their homes. I think they should have a weekly limit on wattage. Everyone can be accomodated with a particular KWh per week. No more private energy bills. We will take it out of your taxes and make sure you turn your lights out when you leave the house.

And finally (back to the thread topic) healthcare. You old people. I dont care how healthy you are. I dont care that your mom and your dad both lived to 105, and beore the injury your handicap was a 10. You are over 68. The government plan will not pay for your knee replacement. It doesnt make sense to give a knee to an adult male with a life expectancy of 74. I mean, we need to cut costs on you old people. Jim Bob who is 43 needs a lung. If we have to keep treating you old people, we cant pay for Jim Bob's lung (who has smoked for 25 years).

I could go on and on. Its simply called socialism. Apparently/obviously you are an advocate.

abosolutley not. we're not talking about houses or cars (in reality). we are talking about heathcare. it is not OK to have millions go without. in most other things, i'm with you on the capitalist train. but healthcare is different in that people die/ fail to thrive without it. without posessions (even a house) you can still work and thrive (the old pull yourself up by the bootstraps arguement). when you are sick or injured you cannot, and moreover if you do, it can have adverse effects on your coworkers (ie working neighbors and friends). it doesn't just effect you either, it effects all of your dependants. (ie wife and kids of working americans)

i advocate reason and common sense sir, which unfortunately is not a common virtue.
 
Cynical reasoning and name calling ("socialism") adds nothing here. For example: Jim Bob the smoker or Joe Bob, the none smoker?

There was no name calling whatsoever(please show me where I called anyone a name in that post). And give me a break about Jim Bob, you have got to be kidding me. You are going to need a little thicker skin than that.
If this is all you have to add to the debate, please dont waste your time.
 
There was no name calling whatsoever(please show me where I called anyone a name in that post). And give me a break about Jim Bob, you have got to be kidding me. You are going to need a little thicker skin than that.
If this is all you have to add to the debate, please dont waste your time.

"Its simply called socialism. Apparently/obviously you are an advocate."
Gee, I'm must have missed something here...

So what was your point about adding that Jim Bob was a smoker?
Gee, I must have missed something here too..

It's you with the thin skin. Sorry
 
Hey everyone, I have a solution that everyone should be happy with, it will solve all of our problems and it is really simple:

Eliminate all private property. Everyone can live in a dorm and wear the same thing. There will be mandatory service periods in the factories and the farms and all incomes will be paid to the state from which all expenses will be met. There will be free healthcare and education for all.

Sounds just peachy dont it? Except that as I write this idealized version of communism, I am having a hard time distinguishing it from prison life.

Anyways.

Am I implying that the US is going this route (as Nikita Krushchev wryly observed 50 years ago) YES!

Over and over we have this conversation: the rich should help the poor, therefore you should stop whining and pay more more more (that being Oracle).

From the other end we hear: We are already paying an outrageous sum of our money to the government, when will this ever end? We pay taxes, donate time and services, and still there are those who clamor that we still aren't doing enough (again, Oracle).

I am sure that Oracle is winding up with another of his "hahaha blah blah blah... taxes.... poor... etc etc." What else can he do? He is backed into a corner, and even if there is a good point made he can't retreat because he has staked his ego in his position. What further need do we have to discuss the matter? There isn't any convincing him from his neo Marxist maxims that he has swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

Oracle represents the prevailing winds in DC these days (i.e. the democratic party). Dr. Jeff and Ocean represent the silent masses of pissed off independent America who are watching the sweeping changes being perpetrated on our society with depressed amazement. The twain shall not meet and this debate is pretty much over. Lets head back to the polls and see who carries the day.

Obama's overreaching is going to cost him and his party dearly, mark my words.
 
I guess (sticking with you analogies) we should all live in the same size house. I mean, those 4 person families living in 4000 square feet is ridiculous! It takes more fuel to build those homes, and more strain on the environment. 4 person families can easily be accomodated in 1200 suare feet. The rich people can just buy better appliances. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, even the lazy people.

And what is it with these rich people using so much electricity? Two and three computers in their homes. I think they should have a weekly limit on wattage. Everyone can be accomodated with a particular KWh per week. No more private energy bills. We will take it out of your taxes and make sure you turn your lights out when you leave the house.

And finally (back to the thread topic) healthcare. You old people. I dont care how healthy you are. I dont care that your mom and your dad both lived to 105, and beore the injury your handicap was a 10. You are over 68. The government plan will not pay for your knee replacement. It doesnt make sense to give a knee to an adult male with a life expectancy of 74. I mean, we need to cut costs on you old people. Jim Bob who is 43 needs a lung. If we have to keep treating you old people, we cant pay for Jim Bob's lung (who has smoked for 25 years).

I could go on and on. Its simply called socialism. Apparently/obviously you are an advocate.

I wish there was one of those smiley face dudas with a hammer hitting the nail on the head.

This is what it boils down and the left (I hate to generalize, but I am going to in this case) just doesn't get it. They confuse all problems as a mandate to increase governmental control. We resist such controls and are thus branded as unfeeling or uncaring, despite the FACT that small government/rightist types donate the lions share of all charitable donations in this country. We know our duty to the poor and we think there are better ways to go about it that grabbing people by the throat and reaching into their pocket and taking their money and handing it out.
 
abosolutley not. we're not talking about houses or cars (in reality). we are talking about heathcare. it is not OK to have millions go without. in most other things, i'm with you on the capitalist train. but healthcare is different in that people die/ fail to thrive without it. without posessions (even a house) you can still work and thrive (the old pull yourself up by the bootstraps arguement). when you are sick or injured you cannot, and moreover if you do, it can have adverse effects on your coworkers (ie working neighbors and friends). it doesn't just effect you either, it effects all of your dependants. (ie wife and kids of working americans)

i advocate reason and common sense sir, which unfortunately is not a common virtue.

This entire debate is based on a false dichotomy. Either you take the Wackleberry solution or the country is going to die. Isn't there a viable third option? Someone suggested that Mitt Romney might have something to add here... but I am being too bold.
 
when you are sick or injured you cannot, and moreover if you do, it can have adverse effects on your coworkers (ie working neighbors and friends). it doesn't just effect you either, it effects all of your dependants. (ie wife and kids of working americans)

i advocate reason and common sense sir, which unfortunately is not a common virtue.
So what about the enormous burden of self-inflicted disease? I'm talking obesity-related conditions, coronary artery disease, adult-onset diabetes, COPD, cirrhosis, etc. etc. etc.? I'm asking you this sincerely, Oracle; do you believe I also share responsibility for the incalculable financial burden these people are placing on the nation? Nobody disagrees with you, I'd wager, that a sick newborn with a brain tumor deserves to have it cared for; it's the enormous band of the population falling into the category first category that I believe should reap what they sow.

If your car engine seizes because you've never changed the oil or performed other routine maintenance, the mechanic isn't going to replace it for free. He's going to tell you he can fix it, but you're going to have to pay full fee because it's your own bloody fault for not taking care of it properly. Somehow, people advocating free-ride healthcare for everyone seem unable to apply the principle to the things that happen to poorly-maintained human bodies.
 
Hey everyone, I have a solution that everyone should be happy with, it will solve all of our problems and it is really simple:

Eliminate all private property. Everyone can live in a dorm and wear the same thing. There will be mandatory service periods in the factories and the farms and all incomes will be paid to the state from which all expenses will be met. There will be free healthcare and education for all.

Sounds just peachy dont it? Except that as I write this idealized version of communism, I am having a hard time distinguishing it from prison life.

Anyways.

Am I implying that the US is going this route (as Nikita Krushchev wryly observed 50 years ago) YES!

Over and over we have this conversation: the rich should help the poor, therefore you should stop whining and pay more more more (that being Oracle).

From the other end we hear: We are already paying an outrageous sum of our money to the government, when will this ever end? We pay taxes, donate time and services, and still there are those who clamor that we still aren't doing enough (again, Oracle).

I am sure that Oracle is winding up with another of his "hahaha blah blah blah... taxes.... poor... etc etc." What else can he do? He is backed into a corner, and even if there is a good point made he can't retreat because he has staked his ego in his position. What further need do we have to discuss the matter? There isn't any convincing him from his neo Marxist maxims that he has swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

Oracle represents the prevailing winds in DC these days (i.e. the democratic party). Dr. Jeff and Ocean represent the silent masses of pissed off independent America who are watching the sweeping changes being perpetrated on our society with depressed amazement. The twain shall not meet and this debate is pretty much over. Lets head back to the polls and see who carries the day.

Obama's overreaching is going to cost him and his party dearly, mark my words.



and here comes the water boy for the red team! hahahaha jk

do you really wanna take this to the polls? lol if i remember, the last election was over in a matter of hours. it was a done deal by dinner time! we didn't even have to wait though the night to find out who won.


relax. universal heathcare will not make the sky fall. yeah yeah i'm just a marxist. a communist. a socialist. blah blah. i'm glad you figured out how to use the copy and paste feature to regurgitate right wing propaganda.

Oh our poor rich people. the poor will rue the day! hahaha gimme a break.
how about you actually read the posts...think about it...and then come up with a productive thought to contribute.

....untill then let the grown ups talk.
 
So what about the enormous burden of self-inflicted disease? I'm talking obesity-related conditions, coronary artery disease, adult-onset diabetes, COPD, cirrhosis, etc. etc. etc.? I'm asking you this sincerely, Oracle; do you believe I also share responsibility for the incalculable financial burden these people are placing on the nation? Nobody disagrees with you, I'd wager, that a sick newborn with a brain tumor deserves to have it cared for; it's the enormous band of the population falling into the category first category that I believe should reap what they sow.

If your car engine seizes because you've never changed the oil or performed other routine maintenance, the mechanic isn't going to replace it for free. He's going to tell you he can fix it, but you're going to have to pay full fee because it's your own bloody fault for not taking care of it properly. Somehow, people advocating free-ride healthcare for everyone seem unable to apply the principle to the things that happen to poorly-maintained human bodies.


a great point. what about self inflicted disease and the burden on the system? perhaps we both win with access to education and healthcare. perhaps more clinics, not hospitals. more nurses, not physicians. they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure right? so lets get the education out there.
smoking is on the decline, not due to the fact it'll kill you, but thanks to the media and prevailing disgust of the habit. it's basically not cool anymore, which causes more people to quit than the prospect of eventual death. crazy but true.
it starts at education though. everybody has to learn about diet and lifestyle which comes in some part from access to healthcare. access to clinics. presentations from healthcare professionals in their communities.

you're right, the mechaninc won't fix it for free. but if you haven't had a mechanic next door your whole life to check your car's fluids and such before it fully broke down, it would be a different story right? access to the mechanic at an early stage of car ownership would be key in maintaining your car right?
 
and here comes the water boy for the red team! hahahaha jk

do you really wanna take this to the polls? lol if i remember, the last election was over in a matter of hours. it was a done deal by dinner time! we didn't even have to wait though the night to find out who won.


relax. universal heathcare will not make the sky fall. yeah yeah i'm just a marxist. a communist. a socialist. blah blah. i'm glad you figured out how to use the copy and paste feature to regurgitate right wing propaganda.

Oh our poor rich people. the poor will rue the day! hahaha gimme a break.
how about you actually read the posts...think about it...and then come up with a productive thought to contribute.

....untill then let the grown ups talk.

Must have hit pretty close to the mark to get him all riled up like that! Petty insults, run of the mill rejoinders. I might have been a little taken back by his flippant response if there was any substance to it. But, true to form, there wasn't.

The last election was handed to the President on a silver platter by an adoring media. That and an eight year smear campaign on a sitting president. No more free passes next time, the media is already starting to turn on him.

You got anything better?
 
a great point. what about self inflicted disease and the burden on the system? perhaps we both win with access to education and healthcare. perhaps more clinics, not hospitals. more nurses, not physicians. they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure right? so lets get the education out there.
smoking is on the decline, not due to the fact it'll kill you, but thanks to the media and prevailing disgust of the habit. it's basically not cool anymore, which causes more people to quit than the prospect of eventual death. crazy but true.
it starts at education though. everybody has to learn about diet and lifestyle which comes in some part from access to healthcare. access to clinics. presentations from healthcare professionals in their communities.

you're right, the mechaninc won't fix it for free. but if you haven't had a mechanic next door your whole life to check your car's fluids and such before it fully broke down, it would be a different story right? access to the mechanic at an early stage of car ownership would be key in maintaining your car right?

I agree in that education is part of the solution, but the fact of the matter is that people will do whatever they want with their bodies and only regret it the day they find outsomething is wrong. aphisits makes the best point of how Obama's system will implode on itself: that people will continue to smoke, drink, shoot up drugs, and whatever else. Why? Because the government has provided a nice safety net for them.

It follows with traditional liberal philosphy...take away personal responsibility, and hand it over to the government. The government will take care of everything...cradle to grave benefits.
 
a great point. what about self inflicted disease and the burden on the system? perhaps we both win with access to education and healthcare. perhaps more clinics, not hospitals. more nurses, not physicians. they say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure right? so lets get the education out there.
smoking is on the decline, not due to the fact it'll kill you, but thanks to the media and prevailing disgust of the habit. it's basically not cool anymore, which causes more people to quit than the prospect of eventual death. crazy but true.
it starts at education though. everybody has to learn about diet and lifestyle which comes in some part from access to healthcare. access to clinics. presentations from healthcare professionals in their communities.

Since when is it cool to be fat? Hollywood and the media have been on this freakishly thin craze for the better part of 50 years, and to what effect? Who, at this point, doesn't know it is unhealthy to be obese? It is not a product of education (or lack thereof) that a large percentage of Americans are fat, but a direct result of their choices. They know better but do it anyways (kinda like Obama and his cigarettes). It does not start with education but with choices and free will, the law of the harvest, etc.

So you can try your education, community outreaches, etc. It wont work. And when you figure that out after a few years and a few million dollars, then what will happen? "Well" the government will say "no more Mr. Nice Guy, if you can't choose to eat healthy we will MAKE you eat healthy" and here comes the rise of Big(er) Brother.

And this is why we will continue to talk past each other on this issue. Sure you say, "Oh I agree with the free market on most things, but on this healthcare thing we gotta do this." I say we don't. I say there are other, better ways to solve this problem. It would be better to do nothing than to go down the road you propose.

I believe in a world where people can and will share their excess for those who don't have it. That Zion is the inspiration for good works and is a model for all others but attempts that have been made to achieve it have failed, and failed spectacularly. I prefer the present flawed system over another system that is eventually worse, but dont confuse my opposition to the present solutions as negating my belief in the moral duty to serve the less fortunate.
 
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Must have hit pretty close to the mark to get him all riled up like that! Petty insults, run of the mill rejoinders. I might have been a little taken back by his flippant response if there was any substance to it. But, true to form, there wasn't.

The last election was handed to the President on a silver platter by an adoring media. That and an eight year smear campaign on a sitting president. No more free passes next time, the media is already starting to turn on him.

You got anything better?

scientific american did a study on the "liberal media" the month of the election i believe it was. they followed all major network coverage of the election and counted all positive and negative banter about each candidate. know what they found? statistically, john mccain got more favorable coverage! amazing! unless scientists are also part of the liberal "media machine"! hahaha sorry friend. no more free passes next time!
 
Since when is it cool to be fat? Hollywood and the media have been on this freakishly thin craze for the better part of 50 years, and to what effect? Who, at this point, doesn't know it is unhealthy to be obese? It is not a product of education (or lack thereof) that a large percentage of Americans are fat, but a direct result of their choices. They know better but do it anyways (kinda like Obama and his cigarettes). It does not start with education but with choices and free will, the law of the harvest, etc.

So you can try your education, community outreaches, etc. It wont work. And when you figure that out after a few years and a few million dollars, then what will happen? "Well" the government will say "no more Mr. Nice Guy, if you can't choose to eat healthy we will MAKE you eat healthy" and here comes the rise of Big(er) Brother.

And this is why we will continue to talk past each other on this issue. Sure you say, "Oh I agree with the free market on most things, but on this healthcare thing we gotta do this." I say we don't. I say there are other, better ways to solve this problem. It would be better to do nothing than to go down the road you propose.

I believe in a world where people can and will share their excess for those who don't have it. That Zion is the inspiration for good works and is a model for all others but attempts that have been made to achieve it have failed, and failed spectacularly. I prefer the present flawed system over another system that is eventually worse, but dont confuse my opposition to the present solutions as negating my belief in the moral duty to serve the less fortunate.


its not about being cool really, its about making healthy choices second nature. for that to happen, access to adequate resources needs to happen. it must happen. don't be scared, be skeptical! its perfectly OK to be skeptical! if fact i applaud the skeptics out there for asking questions and discussing the possibilities and outcomes. however, do nothing is a bad null hypothesis because doing nothing isn't working.
 
what are you talking about??? hahaha are you sending this transmission from your doomsday bunker? haha from a labtop running on diesel?

what companies put in their products should go unregulated? thats crazy talk.

how we seek healthcare? if by you mean that it'll be easier to find and get for the broad majority of america then yes, he wants to change "seeking healthcare" to "GETTING heathcare".

people are awake...that's why he was elected and will most lkely be re-elected.
You mocked Ocean, but let me help him alnog with his argument. Obama himself is not advocating these things, but his supporters and enablers are.

In California, McDonalds was sued because they were not removing their transfats off their menus as soon as a health non profit group wanted. Liberal case in point: social engineering. If you want to eat healthy and know that a restaurant serves unhelathy food, DON'T eat there! That's how the free market works.

He has limited the amount of money and compensation company executives (receiving bailout money) can make. Liberal case in point: wealth redistribution.

Lastly, the tax and cap bill moving through Congress right now is absolutely scary. Regulation of carbon emissions is well intended but essentially still is in ADMINISTRATIVE way to control pollution (scoial engineering again). This will invariably lead to higher energy costs. Barney Frank is putting a "placeholder" in the bill, allowing him to modify the bill AFTER it has been voted on. Would you trust this guy who was partially culpable for the housing mess we're in right now?
 
As I said before, if the government is forcing doctors to take public health insurance, dentists should be forced to as well.

Dentists should not be able to charge cash to patients if doctors can't. Period.

I believe that physicians can turn away medicare/medicaid patients just as Doctors of Dental Surgery can.
 
scientific american did a study on the "liberal media" the month of the election i believe it was. they followed all major network coverage of the election and counted all positive and negative banter about each candidate. know what they found? statistically, john mccain got more favorable coverage! amazing! unless scientists are also part of the liberal "media machine"! hahaha sorry friend. no more free passes next time!

That may be the case, but Barack Obama got MORE coverage (good and bad) than John McCain as a whole. RIght now I'm too tired to find the numbers, but that's how it played out.

Chris Matthews (MSNBC) gota tingle up his leg listening to Obama.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/13/chris-matthews-i-felt-t_n_86449.html

This is what I remember of last years elections: media love affair with Obama, ignoring John McCain, and critisizing every detail of Palin, from her clothes to her pregnant daughter.
 
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