How will Obama's health care reform plans affect dentists?

[SatanicMonkey]

I think it is funny how often health insurance is misconstrued with capitalism. In its truest sense, health insurance is decidedly not a capitalistic policy.

For an interesting commentary on health insurance coverage, check out this video.

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[DMDreaming]

Defense spending is a tricky thing and I really dont know enough to say how much could be cut. It is a fine line. You need the world to know that if push comes to shove, the US is ready and willing to take care of business (literally!). That is the crux of the whole Pax Americana idea, its all an idea really. How much capital does it take to maintain this image? If there was room to trim, what should be done then? Should we use that money to pay for another government program? I dont think so. If they cut defense spending in half, then the government should pass the savings along in the form of a tax cut.

Obama's plan (I just read it) has some good things and some not so good things. I think mandating electronic records is a wonderful idea. The plan reads like a Communist manifesto health care tract though. I half expected the thing to end by saying "workers of the world unite... for healthcare!" Yes there is a problem, but... throwing the tax dollars in the form of more (LOTS MORE) government at it is his best solution? What a laugher. "OK, here is the problem" I hear Obama saying in my head "healthcare is a bloated, convoluted mess. We are going to fix it with..." and I add "another bloated convoluted mess."

I prefer the Mitt Romney approach. Romney has the interesting distinction of being someone who actually managed to pass significant healthcare legislation in the modern era.

I agree with your that Romney was a key player the passing the most significant healthcare legislation of recent years. However, there are reasons to believe it isn't working. The following are excerpts from a recent Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) publication. If you want to read more, the link is below.

The Massachusetts Health Reform Law of 2006 expanded Medicaid coverage for the poor andmade available subsidized, Medicaid-like coverage for additional poor and near-poor residents of the state. It also mandated that middle-income uninsured people either purchase private healthinsurance or pay a substantial fine ($1,068 in 2009). ​

The reform law has not achieved universal health insurance coverage, although half or more of the previously uninsured now have some type of insurance policy. ​

The reform has been more expensive than expected, costing $1.1 billion in fiscal 2008 and $1.3 billion in fiscal 2009. ​

While the new health insurance improved access to care for some residents, many low-income patients who previously received completely free care under the state's old free care program now face co-payments, premiums and deductibles that stop them from getting needed care. In addition, cuts to safety-net providers have reduced health resources available to the state's remaining uninsured, as well as to others who rely on safety-net providers for services in short supply in the private sector. ​

By mandating that uninsured residents purchase private health insurance, the law reinforced the economic and political power of health insurance firms. Thus, the reform augments the already high administrative costs of health care. Moreover, the agency that administers the new law adds an extra 4 to 5 percentage points to the already high overhead of private
health insurance policies.​

While I commend Romney for taking a bold step where others hesitate to tread, this model is lacking in many areas. I find it interesting that a single small state spent $1.3 Billion in healthcare. If this were extrapolated out to include the other states in the nation we are looking at astounding numbers especially in our current deficit. Realistically, there is no way to impliment such a policy without substantially raising taxes AND implimenting strict policies on insurance companies. A slippery slope when you think about it. Again, I feel like this issue is one that needs careful consideration and should not be rushed through congress.​

Here are a couple of links to supporting articles:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/february/massachusetts_is_no_.php
http://pnhp.org/mass_report/mass_report_Final.pdf

 

[SatanicMonkey]

DMDreaming.. this is because there are three things that healthcare cannot strive to achieve simultaneously - 1) being cheap and affordable, 2) being universally accessible and 3) being sustainable in the long term.

The liberal meme is to throw money at the beast, but acting first and evaluating later is not a sustainable option . The video I posted earlier touches base on this issue and more.

 

[DMDreaming]

I couldn't agree with you more. The question is, "How do we get more Americans to understand these concepts?" Until they do, congress will continue with the status quo which hasn't been successful.

 

[teeth63a]

Why don't you read up on parecon, and then decide if it is right to accuse me of being a communist..

Sounds like you're a smart guy. So read it through again, and you'll see I never called you a communist. But your unbalanced criticism of the capitalist system and your following argument clearly shows that you seem to think that capitalism is the root of all our problems and that "another" system would be better. Your opening post couldn't have been said better by Marx, Lenin, or Chairman Mao themselves.

So because I have enough cash, I am allowed to pollute the same air that you, I, and everyone else breathe. Is this fair for you and people other than myself?

I don't know how this applies to your argument, and I don't see the moral dilemma of driving one vehicle over another based on carbon emissions. But if you are rich enough I really DON'T CARE what you drive, how much you drive or where you drive. Your example just clearly points that you subscibe to a political philosophy (liberal) of regulating behavior, ie social engineering.

Being innately selfish does not justify my acting on it. Psycologists would say that I, like any human being, have an innate desire to reproduce. Does this justify me if I force myself on a pretty lady?

Again I have no idea where you're going with this, check your connection with the rest of the Borg collective.

The Great Depression was cause by unchecked greed, as is this recent recession. Massive economic downturns are hence periodic, expected, and certainly painful in a capitalist society.

Agreed.

If capitalism is sustainable, then why are companies such as GM and Chrysler artifically being injected with bailout money by the government?

Give me a break. Thanks for citing the perfect example of how capitalism works, and what happens when socialists meddle. GM became an unviable company when overreaching benefits were extended to the union employees. Specifically, retirees get benefits for life, but with a growing number of retirees and smaller number of employees paying into the system, the whole system became unsustainable. This is the fault of POOR BUSINESS PRACTICES not a fault of capitalism itself. (And this is the future of our social security system as well)

And at one point the federal government propped up GM with bailout money. EVERY conservative would take issue with that, because government is unnecessarily meddling with the private sector, worse yet, using taxpayer money. Where would you draw the line? Which companies get bailed out and which don't? Jobless employees should blame their CEO for their situation.

A very socialist action thing to do, wouldn't you say? So we'll have capitalist economies that are not really capitalist, because these societies are simply are too ethical to let the results of prolonged capitalism to persist.

Conservatives in general choose to help society out through nonprofit groups, religious charities, and generally don't believe in inflating government welfare programs.

 

[jmick101]

I agree with your that Romney was a key player the passing the most significant healthcare legislation of recent years. However, there are reasons to believe it isn't working.

Right you are, even Romney will say that parts of his plan are not working and are getting bogged down in politics. Romney's article in Newsweek (I think I linked to it earlier) talks about this.

 

[OceanDMD]

There was a thread about this president before he was elected that amazed me how many students were in favor of this so called change. The kool aid was strong, and many are still punch drunk. We have a great reader of teleprompters in office, that has everyone latching on to his every word. Be afraid, be very afraid. Major things are happening, way too quickly I might add, and if you dont think this man will eventually come after dentistry you are knutts. Hes socialized the banks, the auto industry, contol of the tobacco industry, Wall street (lets tell everyone what they can make), and now why not spend a TRILLION DOLLARS on health care. He wants to offer a government insurance program, and apparently let you choose between private and government insurance. Does anyone really think medicaid works? Last I heard it was in the same boat as social security. How about the United States Postal Service? How is this government business doing financially?

This insurance program will put all smaller insurance companies out of business. Eventually (which is probably the longterm plan) will be the only healthcare coverage. How can the country afford it? Rock bottom fees for services provided, and higher taxes. Ultimately, the most qualified students will not choose healthcare as a career because of the governments greasy fingers, and because it will be impossible to make the same living MDs made in the past. In addition, poor compensation from the government plan will require shortcuts and less quality of treatment. HEALTHCARE IN THIS COUNTRY WILL SIGNIFICANTLY WORSEN. And dentistry is not far behind. You Obama/Socialist supporters keep drinking your kool aid, I mean Im sure he is giving two pre-written speaches today. Basically the GOVERNMENT/Obama has decided to control everything in our lives, because apparently the free market does not work.

 

[FatKid]

Canada's per-capita (person) national debt is half of ours. Their infrastructure (roads, schools, bridges, etc.) and economy are in far better shape than ours. I DO NOT support a single payer system for health care like they have. But my aunt lives in Canada and she says she can see the doctor and have an operation tomorrow if she wanted to (she has needed to).

Sure there are some stories of people waiting, but the same thing happens here (the local ear, nose and throat specialist MD is booked out 4 months in my town). Insurance companies use these stories to spread lies about their healthcare system. It's stupid tax cuts and war spending that is killing us, along with stupid trade policies (if you sell US stuff in China, you pay a huge tarrif and have to file endless paperwork, but if China wants to sell their crap here, no problemo). It's because the politicians are corrupt and paid for.

Your aunt is full of crap.

I am from Canada, and I will tell you, the wait times there are crazy, the doctor shortage is worse, and you get less quality of care.

 

[Oracle DMD]

i love how "red state" dentists seem to be. hahaha it's horrible! lol

 

[jmick101]

i love how "red state" dentists seem to be. hahaha it's horrible! lol

Dental students tend to be "blue state" until they become dentists and have to pay exorbitant taxes at which point they become "red state." At least that is what I think will happen since I am still a dental student.

The new American dream: work hard so that the government can take your money and pay for someone else's healthcare, twinkies, and iphone.

 

[jmick101]

Your aunt is full of crap.

I am from Canada, and I will tell you, the wait times there are crazy, the doctor shortage is worse, and you get less quality of care.

+1 on this. I lived in Canada for 6 months and in honest moments they would admit that the system wasnt really working out. You know what any Canadian with enough money did? Went to Minnesota.

Why? The wait times were insane.

 

[burnzee06]

It's a shame that our opinion on this topic can be skewed so much just because of the profession we are in/entering.

Unfortunately, growing up in a poor part of pennsylvania has shown me the other point of view. My boyfriend grew up in a single parent household with his mom earning only minimum wage and she isn't the only person I know without health insurance. Things like regular doctor's appointments and yearly screenings don't happen out here and preventable conditions can become much worse by the time someone makes it to the ER. I am graduating a semester early and won't matriculate into dental school until Fall 2010 so I will be without health insurance for 8 months. The estimate we have so far is $370/month to insure me... something my parents cannot afford. I would rather see affordable (key word) health care available to all individuals and, to be quite honest, would be willing pay the proposed slight tax increase to see that happen.

 

[denner]

Give me a break. Thanks for citing the perfect example of how capitalism works, and what happens when socialists meddle. GM became an unviable company when overreaching benefits were extended to the union employees. Specifically, retirees get benefits for life, but with a growing number of retirees and smaller number of employees paying into the system, the whole system became unsustainable. This is the fault of POOR BUSINESS PRACTICES not a fault of capitalism itself. (And this is the future of our social security system as well)

Thank the gods, somebody else out there actually gets it

And this is why no one should never count on that social security money being there for retirement, because it won't be

 

[DrJeff]

There was a thread about this president before he was elected that amazed me how many students were in favor of this so called change. The kool aid was strong, and many are still punch drunk. We have a great reader of teleprompters in office, that has everyone latching on to his every word. Be afraid, be very afraid. Major things are happening, way too quickly I might add, and if you dont think this man will eventually come after dentistry you are knutts. Hes socialized the banks, the auto industry, contol of the tobacco industry, Wall street (lets tell everyone what they can make), and now why not spend a TRILLION DOLLARS on health care. He wants to offer a government insurance program, and apparently let you choose between private and government insurance. Does anyone really think medicaid works? Last I heard it was in the same boat as social security. How about the United States Postal Service? How is this government business doing financially?

This insurance program will put all smaller insurance companies out of business. Eventually (which is probably the longterm plan) will be the only healthcare coverage. How can the country afford it? Rock bottom fees for services provided, and higher taxes. Ultimately, the most qualified students will not choose healthcare as a career because of the governments greasy fingers, and because it will be impossible to make the same living MDs made in the past. In addition, poor compensation from the government plan will require shortcuts and less quality of treatment. HEALTHCARE IN THIS COUNTRY WILL SIGNIFICANTLY WORSEN. And dentistry is not far behind. You Obama/Socialist supporters keep drinking your kool aid, I mean Im sure he is giving two pre-written speaches today. Basically the GOVERNMENT/Obama has decided to control everything in our lives, because apparently the free market does not work.

Very well put Ocean!

 

[DrJeff]

i love how "red state" dentists seem to be. hahaha it's horrible! lol

Just wait and see how much you'll be paying as an "average" dentist in not just personal taxes, but social security(both for you and your employees), corporate taxes, etc, etc, etc. Plus, in Obama-land, you'll be earning enough that you'll actually still be one of the few paying taxes, and don't think for a second that the amount you'll be paying a year won't keep going up and up and up

Dental students tend to be "blue state" until they become dentists and have to pay exorbitant taxes at which point they become "red state." At least that is what I think will happen since I am a dental student myself.

The new American dream: work hard so that the government can take your money and pay for someone else's healthcare, twinkies, and iphone.

Many dentists find themselves once in practice becoming "red state" - maybe not for social reasons, but for financial reasons. Personally I find my politcal views nowadays more inline with the libertarian party where I'm definately fiscally conservative and generally socially liberal. Whereas back and d-school and prior I was most definately a "blue stater."

Bottomline for me is I feel VERY strongly that I'm going to do a much better job at managing my life and more of my finances than the gov't will!

 

[Oracle DMD]

Dental students tend to be "blue state" until they become dentists and have to pay exorbitant taxes at which point they become "red state." At least that is what I think will happen since I am a dental student myself.

The new American dream: work hard so that the government can take your money and pay for someone else's healthcare, twinkies, and iphone.

Just wait and see how much you'll be paying as an "average" dentist in not just personal taxes, but social security(both for you and your employees), corporate taxes, etc, etc, etc. Plus, in Obama-land, you'll be earning enough that you'll actually still be one of the few paying taxes, and don't think for a second that the amount you'll be paying a year won't keep going up and up and up



Many dentists find themselves once in practice becoming "red state" - maybe not for social reasons, but for financial reasons. Personally I find my politcal views nowadays more inline with the libertarian party where I'm definately fiscally conservative and generally socially liberal. Whereas back and d-school and prior I was most definately a "blue stater."

Bottomline for me is I feel VERY strongly that I'm going to do a much better job at managing my life and more of my finances than the gov't will!

when you're at the top of tax bracket who cares?! not saying that you are, but if you are in the top 5-10% of american household incomes....SHUT UP!!!!! hahahaha... if you have it that good, pay the stupid taxes. be happy that you are that successfull in life, but with that comes some responisibilities and nobody wants to hear rich people cry about taxes; especially when their kids haven't seen a dentist or a doctor in years.

 

[jmick101]

when you're at the top of tax bracket who cares?! not saying that you are, but if you are in the top 5-10% of american household incomes....SHUT UP!!!!! hahahaha... if you have it that good, pay the stupid taxes. be happy that you are that successfull in life, but with that comes some responisibilities and nobody wants to hear rich people cry about taxes; especially when their kids haven't seen a dentist or a doctor in years.

Very funny. I will assume that you are kidding about some of this. Listen, I don't mind paying taxes for things like roads, police, fire fighters, military, and other things along those lines. I will happily pay those. But that is not what we are talking about here. I object to what my ever increasing tax burden is being used to pay for, ie some politicians hare brained social programs that don't work.

Besides, if everyone was just content to "shut up" and "pay the stupid taxes" we would still be British citizens.

 

[jmick101]

Just wait and see how much you'll be paying as an "average" dentist in not just personal taxes, but social security(both for you and your employees), corporate taxes, etc, etc, etc. Plus, in Obama-land, you'll be earning enough that you'll actually still be one of the few paying taxes, and don't think for a second that the amount you'll be paying a year won't keep going up and up and up



Many dentists find themselves once in practice becoming "red state" - maybe not for social reasons, but for financial reasons. Personally I find my politcal views nowadays more inline with the libertarian party where I'm definately fiscally conservative and generally socially liberal. Whereas back and d-school and prior I was most definately a "blue stater."

Bottomline for me is I feel VERY strongly that I'm going to do a much better job at managing my life and more of my finances than the gov't will!

Agreed, the libertarian party is looking more and more like the party for me. But I aint quite there yet.

 

[jmick101]

It's a shame that our opinion on this topic can be skewed so much just because of the profession we are in/entering.

I would rather see affordable (key word) health care available to all individuals and, to be quite honest, would be willing pay the proposed slight tax increase to see that happen.

Look, most everyone agrees that working things out so that there is affordable health insurance is a good thing. We differ about how to do this and that is not a "shame" nor is it "skewed." Frankly, I am not sure that you (or I for that matter) am qualified to say what is skewed or not in this since we are not dentists. Those dentists that I have spoken to about sure aint happy about it, I can tell you that much. Somehow putting all that time and effort only to see the government take a 50% cut will kind of chap you after a while.

Furthermore, they might even say that your viewpoint is skewed since you are still in the liberal wonderland of the University.

 

[DrJeff]

when you're at the top of tax bracket who cares?! not saying that you are, but if you are in the top 5-10% of american household incomes....SHUT UP!!!!! hahahaha... if you have it that good, pay the stupid taxes. be happy that you are that successfull in life, but with that comes some responisibilities and nobody wants to hear rich people cry about taxes; especially when their kids haven't seen a dentist or a doctor in years.

I would SOOOOOO encourage you to come back and read this post of yours in about 10 years when your out in the "real world" and seeing just how large a number that you already pay to the gov't in taxes and then hear how you, because you worked your ***** off through high school, college, dental school and then through your practice then get "rewarded" by paying an even larger percentage of your income while at the same time, you'll more than likely hear and see many, many, many people abusing the system that you're being TOLD to pay more into

The part about folks b$tching at you, the "rich" doctor and paying more taxes while their kids haven't seen a doctor or dentist in years, well, been there, heard that, and quite a few of that population WILL have a new blackberry, be driving something far more expensive than a basic sub compact car, be wearing snaekers that cost well over $100 a pair and be able to tell you that they watched American Idol the night before on their 42" plasma TV

 

[jmick101]

I would SOOOOOO encourage you to come back and read this post of yours in about 10 years when your out in the "real world" and seeing just how large a number that you already pay to the gov't in taxes and then hear how you, because you worked your ***** off through high school, college, dental school and then through your practice then get "rewarded" by paying an even larger percentage of your income while at the same time, you'll more than likely hear and see many, many, many people abusing the system that you're being TOLD to pay more into

The part about folks b$tching at you, the "rich" doctor and paying more taxes while their kids haven't seen a doctor or dentist in years, well, been there, heard that, and quite a few of that population WILL have a new blackberry, be driving something far more expensive than a basic sub compact car, be wearing snaekers that cost well over $100 a pair and be able to tell you that they watched American Idol the night before on their 42" plasma TV

Bitter reality kind of has a sobering effect sometimes.

Welfare programs, while well intentioned, often create larger problems than the ones they were intended to fix. I have heard people say that they cannot afford to get a job.

Think about that for a minute.

Cannot afford to get a job? If that is the case, then this country is in serious trouble, because that is truly unsustainable.
This lack of initiative and responsibility, and the myriad of others that are born of short sighted social programs are a bigger problem than our current health care crisis, in my opinion.

 

[Daurang]

My prediction is everyone is gonna make less no matter what.

If you make more then you pay more income taxes and with less charitable and mortgage deductions, which reduces your net take home. If you make less then higher business costs and sale taxes and gasoline taxes and greenhouse gas tax and junk fees get passed on to you, which reduces your net take home.

Just look at the mess Kalifornia is in due to their soak the rich to spend for everyone else's programs. Our country is applying the same soak the rich to spend for everyone else's programs direction. Eventually taxes and fees and and costs will have to be drastically increased on everyone,

 

[DMDreaming]

I would SOOOOOO encourage you to come back and read this post of yours in about 10 years when your out in the "real world" and seeing just how large a number that you already pay to the gov't in taxes and then hear how you, because you worked your ***** off through high school, college, dental school and then through your practice then get "rewarded" by paying an even larger percentage of your income while at the same time, you'll more than likely hear and see many, many, many people abusing the system that you're being TOLD to pay more into

The part about folks b$tching at you, the "rich" doctor and paying more taxes while their kids haven't seen a doctor or dentist in years, well, been there, heard that, and quite a few of that population WILL have a new blackberry, be driving something far more expensive than a basic sub compact car, be wearing snaekers that cost well over $100 a pair and be able to tell you that they watched American Idol the night before on their 42" plasma TV

Can't tell you how many times a mother with a fancy manicure, 3 packs of cigarettes, and blackberry/iphone with recent pictures of a Las Vegas trip came in and said they couldn't afford a $75 filling for their childs tooth. It's all a matter of priority and a significant number of American's skipped Priorities 101. Haven't you noticed that in this recession with unemployment at an monumental high there are still 1 hour or more wait times for a table at the neighborhood restaurants? I am happy to help those who are trying to help themselves but it irks me for the government to hijack my income to help enable those who are welfare leaches.

 

[Daurang]

when you're at the top of tax bracket who cares?! not saying that you are, but if you are in the top 5-10% of american household incomes....SHUT UP!!!!! hahahaha... if you have it that good, pay the stupid taxes. be happy that you are that successfull in life, but with that comes some responisibilities and nobody wants to hear rich people cry about taxes; especially when their kids haven't seen a dentist or a doctor in years.

The time will come soon when you'll pay 40% federal tax, 5-10% state tax,14% uncapped social security and medicare tax, which essentially make your tax rate 60-65% before you even see a dime. That's like working January through August for nothing! With the leftover money you gotta pay for your property tax, gasoline tax, greenhouse tax, telephone tax, mortgage with a proposed 28% deduction cap, excise fees, etc., and you suddenly realize Big Brother is forcefully taking 75% of the money you bust your @ss everyday sweating for. Suddenly a new Republican is born; but it's years too late because "there's a sucker born every minute."

 

[aphistis]

Besides, if everyone was just content to "shut up" and "pay the stupid taxes" we would still be British citizens.

Game. Set. Match.

 

[Oracle DMD]

The time will come soon when you'll pay 40% federal tax, 5-10% state tax,14% uncapped social security and medicare tax, which essentially make your tax rate 60-65% before you even see a dime. That's like working January through August for nothing! With the leftover money you gotta pay for your property tax, gasoline tax, greenhouse tax, telephone tax, mortgage with a proposed 28% deduction cap, excise fees, etc., and you suddenly realize Big Brother is forcefully taking 75% of the money you bust your @ss everyday sweating for. Suddenly a new Republican is born; but it's years too late because "there's a sucker born every minute."

hahaha i'll cry a tear for every jaguar/ beemer/ sport car driving dentist in the world because of the tax bracket they're in. give me a break. who cares why poor people are poor? maybe they made bad decisions, maybe they didn't, but that doesn't really matter. just like it doesn't matter if you hit the lottery, worked hard and went to school, or inherited your place in the world from your parents. in the end, you are still well off so quit the whining and get a better accountant! hahaha

 

[Oracle DMD]

Game. Set. Match.

USA! USA! hahaha you gotta be kidding me. we couldn't be califonians if we didn't kill all the native americans from sea to shining sea either, that doesn't mean we should celebrate the point. death and taxes friends.

 

[Cold Front]

The area in which this country's health care system performs best over other developed countries (like Australia, Canada, Germany, the UK, etc) is preventive care. Our current system peforms poorly on its ability to promote healthy lives, and on the provision of care that is safe and coordinated, as well as accessible, efficient, and equitable. I am not suggesting a government plan to be a better alternative than a private insurance, but we have to improve on innovations to catch up with other countries. No system in the world is perfect, but we have a long way to go (and need plenty of more money to spend) to improve the delivery, coordination, and equity of responsible health care system by drawing from best practices both within the U.S. and around the world. These tasks should not be left in the hands of the government, but to the public and their providers. Obama will never see his bill passed, ultimately some sort of compromise will slowly kill his/democrat's BIG idea.

 

[jmick101]

hahaha i'll cry a tear for every jaguar/ beemer/ sport car driving dentist in the world because of the tax bracket they're in. give me a break. who cares why poor people are poor? maybe they made bad decisions, maybe they didn't, but that doesn't really matter. just like it doesn't matter if you hit the lottery, worked hard and went to school, or inherited your place in the world from your parents. in the end, you are still well off so quit the whining and get a better accountant! hahaha

Well, I agree with Dr. Jeff on this one. We will just have to wait a few years and then talk again after you have actually paid some of these taxes you are so happy about.

"Who cares why poor people are poor?" that is a good question if the poor serve only as a reason to hike taxes and get votes. It sure is nice to collect votes from a whole bunch of folks who owe you their rent/food money. Last time I checked liberal types were the worst about donating to the poor they are so enthusiastic about helping (someone from the NYT wrote a good op ed on this last Christmas). Maybe that is why they like taxes, that way they can feel good about spending money on the poor... other peoples money that is.

Furthermore, if you don't care about why poor people are poor, then how can you help them? Just shoving money at them isn't helping, that much is sure. So what then, in your infinite wisdom, do you suggest to remedy this poverty/health care problem.

 

[aphistis]

hahaha i'll cry a tear for every jaguar/ beemer/ sport car driving dentist in the world because of the tax bracket they're in. give me a break. who cares why poor people are poor? maybe they made bad decisions, maybe they didn't, but that doesn't really matter. just like it doesn't matter if you hit the lottery, worked hard and went to school, or inherited your place in the world from your parents. in the end, you are still well off so quit the whining and get a better accountant! hahaha

I'm genuinely curious: have you ever had to pay a bill out of your own resources (that you actually had to acquire through your own effort)? Or are you still living off mom and dad? Your posts in this thread suggest one very, very strongly over the other.

 

[mirk3]

Defense spending is a tricky thing and I really dont know enough to say how much could be cut. It is a fine line. You need the world to know that if push comes to shove, the US is ready and willing to take care of business (literally!). That is the crux of the whole Pax Americana idea, its all an idea really. How much capital does it take to maintain this image? If there was room to trim, what should be done then? Should we use that money to pay for another government program? I dont think so. If they cut defense spending in half, then the government should pass the savings along in the form of a tax cut.

Obama's plan (I just read it) has some good things and some not so good things. I think mandating electronic records is a wonderful idea. The plan reads like a Communist manifesto health care tract though. I half expected the thing to end by saying "workers of the world unite... for healthcare!" Yes there is a problem, but... throwing the tax dollars in the form of more (LOTS MORE) government at it is his best solution? What a laugher. "OK, here is the problem" I hear Obama saying in my head "healthcare is a bloated, convoluted mess. We are going to fix it with..." and I add "another bloated convoluted mess."

I prefer the Mitt Romney approach. Romney has the interesting distinction of being someone who actually managed to pass significant healthcare legislation in the modern era.

You've drunk the kool aid since the military industry is so intertwined with the mainstream media. The fact is, most of the 8/10 of a trillion dollars we spend EVERY YEAR (and ppl complain about a trillion dollars over ten years for health care) goes to WASTE. Pie in the sky robots and enormously expensive war machines that are not designed for the type of wars that we are fighting right now, but are designed for WW2 millitary vs. military combat. We could cut the defense budget in half and we would be at our lates 90's levels and it would NOT take away any necessary equipment and support for our brave men and women in uniform who I FULLY SUPPORT. Just be reallocating/reprioritizing we could probably get them far better and far more equipment than they currently have.

Point is, we can't afford this waste and, as John McCain says, we have to cut it. And those cuts SHOULD NOT go to tax cuts, but to reduce the deficit/debt.

 

[jmick101]

You've drunk the kool aid since the military industry is so intertwined with the mainstream media. The fact is, most of the 8/10 of a trillion dollars we spend EVERY YEAR (and ppl complain about a trillion dollars over ten years for health care) goes to WASTE. Pie in the sky robots and enormously expensive war machines that are not designed for the type of wars that we are fighting right now, but are designed for WW2 millitary vs. military combat. We could cut the defense budget in half and we would be at our lates 90's levels and it would NOT take away any necessary equipment and support for our brave men and women in uniform who I FULLY SUPPORT. Just be reallocating/reprioritizing we could probably get them far better and far more equipment than they currently have.

Point is, we can't afford this waste and, as John McCain says, we have to cut it. And those cuts SHOULD NOT go to tax cuts, but to reduce the deficit/debt.

Whoa, easy there killer. Did you actually read my post there or what? I admitted that cutting defense spending is a viable option, the only question being how much. I also agree that paying off the national debt with leftover money is a good thing. But so are tax cuts, and we are just going to have to disagree on that.

By the way, I was in the military in the late 90's. It was a skeleton crew that needed major overhaul when 9-11 hit, so I wouldn't go around saying that gutting the military to those levels is such a swell idea. At least not around people who know better.

 

[jmick101]

I'm genuinely curious: have you ever had to pay a bill out of your own resources (that you actually had to acquire through your own effort)? Or are you still living off mom and dad? Your posts in this thread suggest one very, very strongly over the other.

Or livin off Uncle Sam and his generous loans. Point being, an earned paycheck is pretty theoretical at this point for him.

 

[jmick101]

USA! USA! hahaha you gotta be kidding me. we couldn't be califonians if we didn't kill all the native americans from sea to shining sea either, that doesn't mean we should celebrate the point. death and taxes friends.

Troll much?

 

[aphistis]

You've drunk the kool aid since the military industry is so intertwined with the mainstream media. The fact is, most of the 8/10 of a trillion dollars we spend EVERY YEAR (and ppl complain about a trillion dollars over ten years for health care) goes to WASTE. Pie in the sky robots and enormously expensive war machines that are not designed for the type of wars that we are fighting right now, but are designed for WW2 millitary vs. military combat. We could cut the defense budget in half and we would be at our lates 90's levels and it would NOT take away any necessary equipment and support for our brave men and women in uniform who I FULLY SUPPORT. Just be reallocating/reprioritizing we could probably get them far better and far more equipment than they currently have.

Point is, we can't afford this waste and, as John McCain says, we have to cut it. And those cuts SHOULD NOT go to tax cuts, but to reduce the deficit/debt.

You FULLY SUPPORT them enough to cut their funding in half?

Gosh, with friends like you, who needs enemies?

 

[Oracle DMD]

. double post

 

[Oracle DMD]

I'm genuinely curious: have you ever had to pay a bill out of your own resources (that you actually had to acquire through your own effort)? Or are you still living off mom and dad? Your posts in this thread suggest one very, very strongly over the other.

mom and dad? lol i've been on my own since i was 18. i think my mom still owes me 20 bucks though. a lot of dentists grew up w/ money though.....you know....the kind of guys who were born on 3rd and act like they hit a triple.

 

[Oracle DMD]

Well, I agree with Dr. Jeff on this one. We will just have to wait a few years and then talk again after you have actually paid some of these taxes you are so happy about.

"Who cares why poor people are poor?" that is a good question if the poor serve only as a reason to hike taxes and get votes. It sure is nice to collect votes from a whole bunch of folks who owe you their rent/food money. Last time I checked liberal types were the worst about donating to the poor they are so enthusiastic about helping (someone from the NYT wrote a good op ed on this last Christmas). Maybe that is why they like taxes, that way they can feel good about spending money on the poor... other peoples money that is.

Furthermore, if you don't care about why poor people are poor, then how can you help them? Just shoving money at them isn't helping, that much is sure. So what then, in your infinite wisdom, do you suggest to remedy this poverty/health care problem.

in my infinite wisdom i know that there will always be poor people and there will always be rich people, and rich people will always have to pay more taxes, and they'll whine about it. universal healthcare is a humanitarian imperative. as a world leader, its embarassing that tens of millions of people can't get access to healthare.

 

[Oracle DMD]

Or livin off Uncle Sam and his generous loans. Point being, an earned paycheck is pretty theoretical at this point for him.

you're right! i'm in school and i'm livin off loans....livin the american dream! but at least i know what a hard days work is all about. i served my 4 in the Marine Corps infantry, what have you done for the country? besides smarmy internet posts?

 

[DrJeff]

in my infinite wisdom i know that there will always be poor people and there will always be rich people, and rich people will always have to pay more taxes, and they'll whine about it. universal healthcare is a humanitarian imperative. as a world leader, its embarassing that tens of millions of people can't get access to healthare.

So then why in Canada are there thousands and thousands of folks each and every year that choose to forgo their national healthcare system and come "South of the Border" to seek care in the US??

Also, please tell me, how with our current healthcare system which is in many places busting at the seems with a shortage of docs and a wealth of patients is going to absorb the likely 35 or so more million patients that Obama wants (tyypical utilization of folks that have insurance is 80% give or take a few points) without adversely affecting the standard of care that the 250 odd million americans that currently have coverage have come to expect??? Then to pay for it, what let's just tax the heck out of the top wage earners, many of whom will be the same folks that Obamacare will want to screw over with making them absorb all those extra patients when they're already saturated with current patients???

 

[DrJeff]

mom and dad? lol i've been on my own since i was 18. i think my mom still owes me 20 bucks though. a lot of dentists grew up w/ money though.....you know....the kind of guys who were born on 3rd and act like they hit a triple.

Umm last I checked, atleast at UCONN where I teach, there's way more dental students taking out ALOT of loan $$ to get through d-school after having taken out ALOT of loan $$ to pay their way through college, who grew up as just "regular" folks far from the McMansion and mutliple BMW driving familes that you may think they came from.

 

[Oracle DMD]

So then why in Canada are there thousands and thousands of folks each and every year that choose to forgo their national healthcare system and come "South of the Border" to seek care in the US??

Also, please tell me, how with our current healthcare system which is in many places busting at the seems with a shortage of docs and a wealth of patients is going to absorb the likely 35 or so more million patients that Obama wants (tyypical utilization of folks that have insurance is 80% give or take a few points) without adversely affecting the standard of care that the 250 odd million americans that currently have coverage have come to expect??? Then to pay for it, what let's just tax the heck out of the top wage earners, many of whom will be the same folks that Obamacare will want to screw over with making them absorb all those extra patients when they're already saturated with current patients???

you're talking about thousands wanting better care when MILLIONS go without care all together.

i don't know how to make it work, but at the least it must be pursued.

A lot of dentists come from dentist and physician families... although I'm sure UCONN is adequately diverse.

 

[banana23]

you're talking about thousands wanting better care when MILLIONS go without care all together.

i don't know how to make it work, but at the least it must be pursued.

A lot of dentists come from dentist and physician families... although I'm sure UCONN is adequately diverse.

This presupposes that those people who are uninsured are not receiving care which is inaccurate. Every minute of every day a child is delivered to parents with no insurance and ERs are flooded with uninsured people with no means to pay for their treatment. No one is ever turned away from any hospital in this country or passed by an ambulance because of inability to pay. Therefore, it is false to argue that we face some sort of moral imperative to offer free healthcare. The real agenda of hammering out this reform is that it is well known that the longer the senate has to debate the issue, the popularity of a nationalized health insurance plan will decrease. Also, as someone has already pointed out even though countries with the best socialized healthcare programs such as Canada and England regularly deny treatment that could save lives. The US has the most advanced healthcare system in the world and I believe it is kind of insulting to insinuate that we are otherwise.

By the way, my dad is a physician and I will be graduating with 200k of debt.

 

[DrJeff]

you're talking about thousands wanting better care when MILLIONS go without care all together.

Nope, I'm talking how will you convince the millions that currently have a level of care that they're accustomed too (and generally like), that in all likelyhood, they're going to have to give up some of what their used to - this will be a situation where it won't just be the "top 5%" that will be affected

i don't know how to make it work, but at the least it must be pursued.

How about then, and you as a passed military guy might appreciate this, fix the VA healthcare system 1st and then if successful use that as the model and scale it up to a national level - why not play with this monsterous system with a smaller, more cost effective, much more controlled model 1st before spending trillions on the unknown??

A lot of dentists come from dentist and physician families... although I'm sure UCONN is adequately diverse.

My graduating class had 1 student out of 39 that had a parent who was a dentist. And I'd bet that it's safe to say that nationwide the percentage of folks who graduate d-school that have a dentist parent is atmost in the 10-15% range.

 

[OceanDMD]

you're talking about thousands wanting better care when MILLIONS go without care all together.

i don't know how to make it work, but at the least it must be pursued.

A lot of dentists come from dentist and physician families... although I'm sure UCONN is adequately diverse.

Pursued is one thing, but demanding a bill passed by the end of the year that will make the biggest change in our lives arguably in a 100 years is CRAZY. This president is trying to jam everything down our throats without any true thought and debate as quiclky as possible. Just like that ******ed stimulus package that we needed soooooooo quickly or the country was falling off a cliff. Have you looked to see how much money from the package has actually been spent?

This president is a crooked conceited arrogant politician. His policies are purely based on maneuvering for another term. Look at his idea of taxing health insurance benefits employees recieve (another frickin tax), guess who would be exempt from this tax? UNION WORKERS. Why do you think union workers would be exempt. Why dont you think about that.


I love how you try to generalize all dentists and physicians as coming from money, living a childhood of riches. It makes me sick that a person can bust his ass through the schooling required to get a dmd, md, or dds, taking out loans for school, loans for a practice, paying the insurances required to practice, and then being required to pay EVEN HIGHER FRICKIN TAKES BECAUSE OF OUR INCOME WHICH ALREADY HAS LITTLE IF ANY DISCRETIONARY LEFT. You have got to be crazy where your thoughts about quit whining is coming from. Ignorant. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like with a career of a garbage collector, no student loan payment, no disability, malpractice, practice loan, the stress of picking up garbage rather that digging for a root tip. The bottom line is people work harder in life, and DESERVE TO BE COMPENSATED FOR IT. IT IS NOT FAIR TO BE KILLED WITH TAXES BECAUSE YOU WORK HARDER. There are classes in this country, not everyone can afford great healthcare, just like not everyone can afford to go to Ruth's Chris for dinner. This is not a communist/socialist country, and you need to get your head out of your arse with those thoughts.

 

[jmick101]

i served my 4 in the Marine Corps infantry, what have you done for the country? besides smarmy internet posts?

Glad you asked. I have been in the Army, in one form or another, since 97, including 3 years with the Airborne Infantry. Since then it has been ROTC, missionary work, and then dental school. I think I have done my fair share for this country.

If I knew you where a Marine, I would have just stopped right there, because there just aint no use in trying to reason with a Jarhead.

Let me be clear though:

I agree that we can and should fix some things about the health care system. I differ on how exactly we should go about it, specifically using free market forces, capping lottery size lawsuits on doctors (which Obama knows he should do, but wont because of the Tort lobby), and making insurance portable, just to name a few.

I don't mind paying for good programs. I do mind paying for programs that are detrimental to the common good (i.e. welfare programs, redundant pork barrel projects, etc). You make is sound like we just ignore the plight of the poor because we don't think it is a good idea to trust the government in this matter. Well, I think you are stone cold crazy if you think they aren't going to make this situation worse when they take over, since they are doing such a bang up job with everything else.

 

[Oracle DMD]

Glad you asked. I have been in the Army, in one form or another, since 97, including 3 years with the Airborne Infantry. Since then it has been ROTC, missionary work, and then dental school. I think I have done my fair share for this country.

If I knew you where a Marine, I would have just stopped right there, because there just aint no use in trying to reason with a Jarhead.

Let me be clear though:

I agree that we can and should fix some things about the health care system. I differ on how exactly we should go about it, specifically using free market forces, capping lottery size lawsuits on doctors (which Obama knows he should do, but wont because of the Tort lobby), and making insurance portable, just to name a few.

I don't mind paying for good programs. I do mind paying for programs that are detrimental to the common good (i.e. welfare programs, redundant pork barrel projects, etc). You make is sound like we just ignore the plight of the poor because we don't think it is a good idea to trust the government in this matter. Well, I think you are stone cold crazy if you think they aren't going to make this situation worse when they take over, since they are doing such a bang up job with everything else.

hahaha hooah! Aint Ready to be a Marine Yet

at the very least, all children should have access to healthcare. they can't work for it and pay for insurance and when they get sick it drags down entire working families. and local programs can't do the job because they never have the funding and there's a whole lot of small town america that don't have access to the city programs.

 

[Oracle DMD]

Pursued is one thing, but demanding a bill passed by the end of the year that will make the biggest change in our lives arguably in a 100 years is CRAZY. This president is trying to jam everything down our throats without any true thought and debate as quiclky as possible. Just like that ******ed stimulus package that we needed soooooooo quickly or the country was falling off a cliff. Have you looked to see how much money from the package has actually been spent?

This president is a crooked conceited arrogant politician. His policies are purely based on maneuvering for another term. Look at his idea of taxing health insurance benefits employees recieve (another frickin tax), guess who would be exempt from this tax? UNION WORKERS. Why do you think union workers would be exempt. Why dont you think about that.


I love how you try to generalize all dentists and physicians as coming from money, living a childhood of riches. It makes me sick that a person can bust his ass through the schooling required to get a dmd, md, or dds, taking out loans for school, loans for a practice, paying the insurances required to practice, and then being required to pay EVEN HIGHER FRICKIN TAKES BECAUSE OF OUR INCOME WHICH ALREADY HAS LITTLE IF ANY DISCRETIONARY LEFT. You have got to be crazy where your thoughts about quit whining is coming from. Ignorant. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like with a career of a garbage collector, no student loan payment, no disability, malpractice, practice loan, the stress of picking up garbage rather that digging for a root tip. The bottom line is people work harder in life, and DESERVE TO BE COMPENSATED FOR IT. IT IS NOT FAIR TO BE KILLED WITH TAXES BECAUSE YOU WORK HARDER. There are classes in this country, not everyone can afford great healthcare, just like not everyone can afford to go to Ruth's Chris for dinner. This is not a communist/socialist country, and you need to get your head out of your arse with those thoughts.

hahaha perhaps there is still time to follow your dreams?

not communist/ socialist? a lot of our country's programs are socialist in nature (see social security) and china, a communist entity, apparently owns a good part of our country. stop having communist/socialist thoughts? how incredibly.......fascist.......hmmmm.

 

[Oracle DMD]

This presupposes that those people who are uninsured are not receiving care which is inaccurate. Every minute of every day a child is delivered to parents with no insurance and ERs are flooded with uninsured people with no means to pay for their treatment. No one is ever turned away from any hospital in this country or passed by an ambulance because of inability to pay. Therefore, it is false to argue that we face some sort of moral imperative to offer free healthcare. The real agenda of hammering out this reform is that it is well known that the longer the senate has to debate the issue, the popularity of a nationalized health insurance plan will decrease. Also, as someone has already pointed out even though countries with the best socialized healthcare programs such as Canada and England regularly deny treatment that could save lives. The US has the most advanced healthcare system in the world and I believe it is kind of insulting to insinuate that we are otherwise.

By the way, my dad is a physician and I will be graduating with 200k of debt.

excellent arguement. i don't insinuate that we don't have an advanced healthcare system.....it's great....if you can pay for it. and herein lies the problem. it doesn't matter how you got rich or how you got poor. what matters is that (at the very least) kids can see a friggn doctor or dentist without thrusting their family into dire straights.

what i've learned about jumping up a couple tax brackets is that as soon as you make a bunch of money, you learn how to leagally hide it. perhaps taxes wouldn't need to be raised if the current tax shelters were erased?

 

[DrJeff]

excellent arguement. i don't insinuate that we don't have an advanced healthcare system.....it's great....if you can pay for it. and herein lies the problem. it doesn't matter how you got rich or how you got poor. what matters is that (at the very least) kids can see a friggn doctor or dentist without thrusting their family into dire straights.

In most states, there's systems in place via medicaid for this, the problem is that what many states reimburse fee wise is often less than 50 cents on the dollar compared to your normal fees and your overhead will very often exceed the reimbursement levels - so you can't see too many and still remain in business

what i've learned about jumping up a couple tax brackets is that as soon as you make a bunch of money, you learn how to leagally hide it. perhaps taxes wouldn't need to be raised if the current tax shelters were erased?

And there's a few things like the Alternative minimum Tax to help prevent this already inplace. Plus there's tax incentives (corporately) in the form of rapid depreciation of major purchases that basically encourages you to invest $250,000 a year into your business that you can right off your taxes, and that $250,000 goes directly back into the economy. If you eliminate some of the "loopholes", the gov't will get more $$, at what is often the expense of the general economy and that's not a good thing either!