How the hell do you produce 1.5 MILLION a year???

[jk5177]

1 hygiene assistant
1 receptionist
2 schedulers
1 finance coordinator

1 hygiene assistan? Wow, I've never heard that before.
And you need two schedulers? Couldn't you combine all that with the receptionist?

It seems that you have all sorts of personnel, so what about an associate?

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[Happy2th]

1 hygiene assistan? Wow, I've never heard that before.
And you need two schedulers? Couldn't you combine all that with the receptionist?

It seems that you have all sorts of personnel, so what about an associate?

Yes, a hygiene assistant. I have three hygienists that work out of 4 operatories (they are not "locked" to one operatory, they rotate operatories during the day.) The hygiene assistant helps seat patients, take x-rays, clean the and set up the operatories, and sterilize equipment so that the hygienists can rotate without skipping a beat.

I have 4 front desk ladies. The receptionist takes incoming calls and routes them to the proper person (either the dental scheduler, the hygiene scheduler, or the finance coordinator). She greets patients as they come in and gets them to fill out their paperwork. The dental scheduler is in charge of scheduling my patients, the hygiene scheduler is in charge of filling holes in the hygiene schedule. Both schedulers discuss treatment plans with the patient and then schedule treatment (after the finance coordinator has made financial arrangements). The finance coordinator deals with anything financial in the office (insurance, payment arrangements, credit checks, outside financing, etc.) All four of them have their hands full all day long......sometimes they don't leave until 6 PM because they have so much to do during the day and get behind. When one is out sick, the rest suffer and you can tell.

I work out of three rooms and utilize three assistants. My brother is graduating from dental school this May and will join me as an associate, but I'm not sure where to put him.....perhaps I'll have to take the fourth room away from the hygienists and let him use it. Hygiene production will probably suffer, but I would think my brother's production would make up for it.....we'll see.

 

[ktcook83]

But don't forget that general dentists can and do earn incomes that eclipse those of specialists. Because of this, money ought to not be your deciding factor, and you *really* ought to choose something that interests you. If you can't decide then practice for a couple of years, or do a GPR/AEGD and apply to specialties.

amen

I hate when people say, "you ONLY want to be a gp?" or you're "just doing general"

 

[jmill0]

That looks like it came from Heartland.

That's a fairly safe bet.

 

[a_student]

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

 

[DcS]

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

It's not unfair, it just reflects the fact that dentistry and the ADA has been able to keep managed care out of the field in contrary to medicine. Thank your predecessors for that one.

 

[briansle]

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

It's only unfair if you equate money = happiness.

In the end money can't buy you respect, love, or happiness. which is what everybody wants out of life.

If you're having the time of your life working towards being a pediatric cardiologist then you've found something most people never do.

Obviously, the path you've chosen in life is 10X harder than becoming a GP dentist. And I don't know about you, but I go out of my way to face challenges in life. Otherwise I'd die from boredom. If I had your brains, I definitely would have gone your route.

 

[a_student]

It's not unfair, it just reflects the fact that dentistry and the ADA has been able to keep managed care out of the field in contrary to medicine. Thank your predecessors for that one.

i'm actually glad managed care entered the system to keep the costs down for that patients, i'm a supporter of universal health-care, and i do wish every sick person could goto the hospital w/o worrying about the costs of medicine (even if it does mean my paycheck would be slashed),

one of my school's affiliated hospitals is a county hospital, and i see alot of really sad cases where ppl didn't goto the doctor because they couldn't afford it and ended up w/ late stage life-threatening disease because of the system.

the far majority of health care costs do not goto the doctor but goto the extremely expensive pharmaceuticals and equipment the various fields require.

last week i learned about an effective chemo-therapy drug called anti-VEGF that costs $100,000/ regimen, we do need a system to keep costs down otherwise many more sick ppl would go w/o adequete healthcare

 

[drhobie7]

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

Not all do. It takes a special person to be able to create a top performing dental practice. Getting your DDS provides no guarantee you'll have a $1.5 mil practice.

 

[aphistis]

i'm actually glad managed care entered the system to keep the costs down for that patients

...Am I seeing this right?

 

[Rezdawg]

In the end money can't buy you respect, love, or happiness. which is what everybody wants out of life.

No, you need the money to buy the Porsche (turbo).

 

[TucsonDDS]

i'm actually glad managed care entered the system to keep the costs down for that patients, i'm a supporter of universal health-care, and i do wish every sick person could goto the hospital w/o worrying about the costs of medicine (even if it does mean my paycheck would be slashed),

one of my school's affiliated hospitals is a county hospital, and i see alot of really sad cases where ppl didn't goto the doctor because they couldn't afford it and ended up w/ late stage life-threatening disease because of the system.

the far majority of health care costs do not goto the doctor but goto the extremely expensive pharmaceuticals and equipment the various fields require.

last week i learned about an effective chemo-therapy drug called anti-VEGF that costs $100,000/ regimen, we do need a system to keep costs down otherwise many more sick ppl would go w/o adequete healthcare

I don't know how you can say that it is not fair in one post and then support the salary decreases and universal health care in the next. I am a firm believer in that physicians are no longer getting paid what they deserve, but it really is the fault of the AMA and the introduction of managed care that has decreased the reimbursements. Dentistry will continue to flourish as long as the ADA and the independent practitioners are able to keep managed care to a minimum. I think that the downfall of medicine has proven that managed care does not work and I believe that if you truely believe that socialized medicine is the way to go then you are going to continue to watch physicians salaries drop.

I would love to have a practice that produced 1.5 million/year with 70% overhead. That would leave me with $450,000 a year. But in order to have a practice that is able to produce that you need to have many more skills than your average dentist. You need to have people skills and the knowledge of how to run a successful practice. You have to be willing to work long hard hours building the practice. You need to invest serious money into the practice and you need to be well liked by your patients. You also need to have the skills that will make patients want to utilize your services. The majority of dentists either don't have all of these skills or don't want the stress that is involved with such an endeavor.

Now your average pediatric cardiologist may just be making under $200K but there are some that are making considerably more. I would be willing to bet that there are many, many more physicians making more than than 200K/year than there are dentists. But these are the physicians that have the drive to build a practice, have people skills and have amazing surgical skills. I worked with one in Tucson who is making considerably more. Both from his practice and from a company that he owns, Cardiowest. Cardiowest just became the first FDA approved artificial heart as a bridge to transplant. Now he could have just sat back and been happy with his 200K but he wanted more, just like these high producing dentists.

And as far as the costs of drugs, yes they are getting more expensive, but they are also getting better, a lot better. Ten years ago having a diagnosis of HIV was basically a death sentence. Now with the drugs and regimins that are available having a diagnosis of HIV still really sucks but many people are living happy productive lives. Now these drugs don't cost all that much to produce but they do cost millions upon millions to develop. If drug companies are not able to recoup these costs then new drugs will not be developed. Sure there are plenty of people making money off of these drugs but it is just like anything else. The people who spend the money make the money, just like everything else in this world. If there was no money to be made and no possibility on a return on the investment then nobody would be willing to take the chance of spending millions of dollars with the possibility of never perfecting a drug.

So really from your posts I can't figure out if you want cheep ineffective drugs and socialized healthcare and a small salary or great, effective drugs for people that can afford it and a good salary. Which is it?

 

[TucsonDDS]

No, you need the money to buy the Porsche (turbo).

Yeah, thats is what my wife wants.

 

[Rezdawg]

Yeah, thats is what my wife wants.

oh oh, good luck with that one. Odds are she eventually gets what she wants.

 

[TucsonDDS]

oh oh, good luck with that one. Odds are she eventually gets what she wants.

Odds Are, at least it has a back seat for the kids.

 

[Rube]

i'm actually glad managed care entered the system to keep the costs down for that patients, i'm a supporter of universal health-care, and i do wish every sick person could goto the hospital w/o worrying about the costs of medicine (even if it does mean my paycheck would be slashed),

one of my school's affiliated hospitals is a county hospital, and i see alot of really sad cases where ppl didn't goto the doctor because they couldn't afford it and ended up w/ late stage life-threatening disease because of the system.

the far majority of health care costs do not goto the doctor but goto the extremely expensive pharmaceuticals and equipment the various fields require.

last week i learned about an effective chemo-therapy drug called anti-VEGF that costs $100,000/ regimen, we do need a system to keep costs down otherwise many more sick ppl would go w/o adequete healthcare

Oh, you like universal heathcare?... And I was ALMOST starting to feel sorry for your crying about being an underpaid cardiologist.

I have an excellent idea. Why don't you go stick to the medical forums where you can lay out your plan to socialize medicine and decide for yourself how much everyone else should get paid.

 

[a_student]

I don't know how you can say that it is not fair in one post and then support the salary decreases and universal health care in the next. I am a firm believer in that physicians are no longer getting paid what they deserve, but it really is the fault of the AMA and the introduction of managed care that has decreased the reimbursements. Dentistry will continue to flourish as long as the ADA and the independent practitioners are able to keep managed care to a minimum. I think that the downfall of medicine has proven that managed care does not work and I believe that if you truely believe that socialized medicine is the way to go then you are going to continue to watch physicians salaries drop.

I would love to have a practice that produced 1.5 million/year with 70% overhead. That would leave me with $450,000 a year. But in order to have a practice that is able to produce that you need to have many more skills than your average dentist. You need to have people skills and the knowledge of how to run a successful practice. You have to be willing to work long hard hours building the practice. You need to invest serious money into the practice and you need to be well liked by your patients. You also need to have the skills that will make patients want to utilize your services. The majority of dentists either don't have all of these skills or don't want the stress that is involved with such an endeavor.

Now your average pediatric cardiologist may just be making under $200K but there are some that are making considerably more. I would be willing to bet that there are many, many more physicians making more than than 200K/year than there are dentists. But these are the physicians that have the drive to build a practice, have people skills and have amazing surgical skills. I worked with one in Tucson who is making considerably more. Both from his practice and from a company that he owns, Cardiowest. Cardiowest just became the first FDA approved artificial heart as a bridge to transplant. Now he could have just sat back and been happy with his 200K but he wanted more, just like these high producing dentists.

And as far as the costs of drugs, yes they are getting more expensive, but they are also getting better, a lot better. Ten years ago having a diagnosis of HIV was basically a death sentence. Now with the drugs and regimins that are available having a diagnosis of HIV still really sucks but many people are living happy productive lives. Now these drugs don't cost all that much to produce but they do cost millions upon millions to develop. If drug companies are not able to recoup these costs then new drugs will not be developed. Sure there are plenty of people making money off of these drugs but it is just like anything else. The people who spend the money make the money, just like everything else in this world. If there was no money to be made and no possibility on a return on the investment then nobody would be willing to take the chance of spending millions of dollars with the possibility of never perfecting a drug.

So really from your posts I can't figure out if you want cheep ineffective drugs and socialized healthcare and a small salary or great, effective drugs for people that can afford it and a good salary. Which is it?

first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less

secondly if you follow the history, managed care came into existence during WWII when companies could no longer hike up wages to attract employees so they started offering healthcare plans for ppl

the government got involved and established medicare and medicaid to help the elderly and those who could not afford healthcare

during the 70's and 80's the costs of healthcare were going through the roof with an increase of about 13% per year, medicare saw that it would go bankrupt if it continued w/ the trend and changed its policies towards reimbursments, private insurance seeing medicare's success and also being close to bankruptcy followed their example

yes i understand there are plastic surgeons making $3million/yr doing "breast augmentation" but i am very glad that the majority of my colleagues do not go into the field for the money

 

[Rezdawg]

dentists deserve less

That would suck...if Im going to be working 32 hours a week, I better get paid like it!!

 

[Rube]

first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more...

I call bullsh*t.

 

[Happy2th]

first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less

Um, this isn't class warfare here. That above quote just reeks of liberalism.

You have no idea whether dentists deserve less or not. You have not walked in any dentist's shoes.

Despite the stories you hear of the salaries of high producing dentists, the national average salary for a dentist is around $130K per year, significantly less than the $200K you quoted above for a pediatric cardiologist. Those dentists that have put in the hard work and dedication to figure out how to make more than the national average definitely deserve it and I'm happy for them. Just as I'm happy for any MD whose figured out how to make significantly more than the national average for an MD, it shows spirit and determination and shouldn't be something that you wish them less prosperity for.

 

[TucsonDDS]

first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less

secondly if you follow the history, managed care came into existence during WWII when companies could no longer hike up wages to attract employees so they started offering healthcare plans for ppl

the government got involved and established medicare and medicaid to help the elderly and those who could not afford healthcare

during the 70's and 80's the costs of healthcare were going through the roof with an increase of about 13% per year, medicare saw that it would go bankrupt if it continued w/ the trend and changed its policies towards reimbursments, private insurance seeing medicare's success and also being close to bankruptcy followed their example

yes i understand there are plastic surgeons making $3million/yr doing "breast augmentation" but i am very glad that the majority of my colleagues do not go into the field for the money

So what do you think that dentists should make, 120K, 60K or how about the average household income of $42,000 or whatever it is. Well, if that is the case maybe school shouldn't be $200,000. And opening a practice shouldn't be another $250000. Oh, and maybe someone should guarentee that your loans will get paid, your staff will get paid and that you will be able to support your family after you pay the 40% in small business taxes. Oh wait, I am going to be a rich dentist, lets raise that to 50% so we can fund all of this managed care for the people of this country who don't work.
Now that I am only making the national household income maybe, just maybe I can afford to buy a house and live next to the drug dealers making 50K a week with their meth labs.

Now what I don't understand is how you are equating being a Pediatric Cardiologist means that you should make more money than a dentist. I am not saying that pediatric cardiologists don't do a lot of good in this world. All of the TOF, coarctations, TAPVR and all other anomolies are important to take care of but I can guarentee that there are many, many more people in this world whose health is directly related to their dental concerns than the poor children with cardiac problems. So maybe dentists should make more because we are affecting the health of many more people than your average pediatric cardiologist.

Sounds like you want a socialized society, oh wait, that isn't what this this country is all about. Maybe you should practice in the Phillipines and Tailand where garbage men make more than your average physician.

So I can assume that you aren't going into Healthcare for the money and that you are going to practice in a very remote and underserved part of the country?

What I am trying to say is that both dentists and physicians devote a very large amount of time to their education and learning the skills in order to help people. If you don't think that your time and life is worth anything then work pro-bono. Eat top raman and drive a Kia. For me, I feel that my time is worth something. Is it worth $200,000/year, only if my patients value my services and are willing to pay for them.

 

[psiyung]

a-student has a history of trolling. I was wondering why I had him under my ignore list, but after I read a few quotes that you guys did on him, I remember why

 

[drhobie7]

You have no idea whether dentists deserve less or not. You have not walked in any dentist's shoes.

That's right. Try working as an orthodontist for half a week.




ok, that was a joke.


Seriously though, I don't think Britney Spears deserves $50 mil a year (or whatever) but she earns it fair and square by providing a product that is highly desired (by some 12year old girls) at a price determined by the market. You may not think dentists deserve $500K but they offer a product just like any other businessperson. They earn that money by working their asses off. The price is determined by the market. And that's fair.

Over the course of your (a_student's) life you will meet many people who make more money than you and may have had an easier time achieving it. Better get used to it. The alternative, like other posters said, is moving to Cuba or North Korea.

 

[a_student]

So what do you think that dentists should make, 120K, 60K or how about the average household income of $42,000 or whatever it is. Well, if that is the case maybe school shouldn't be $200,000. And opening a practice shouldn't be another $250000. Oh, and maybe someone should guarentee that your loans will get paid, your staff will get paid and that you will be able to support your family after you pay the 40% in small business taxes. Oh wait, I am going to be a rich dentist, lets raise that to 50% so we can fund all of this managed care for the people of this country who don't work.
Now that I am only making the national household income maybe, just maybe I can afford to buy a house and live next to the drug dealers making 50K a week with their meth labs.

Now what I don't understand is how you are equating being a Pediatric Cardiologist means that you should make more money than a dentist. I am not saying that pediatric cardiologists don't do a lot of good in this world. All of the TOF, coarctations, TAPVR and all other anomolies are important to take care of but I can guarentee that there are many, many more people in this world whose health is directly related to their dental concerns than the poor children with cardiac problems. So maybe dentists should make more because we are affecting the health of many more people than your average pediatric cardiologist.

Sounds like you want a socialized society, oh wait, that isn't what this this country is all about. Maybe you should practice in the Phillipines and Tailand where garbage men make more than your average physician.

So I can assume that you aren't going into Healthcare for the money and that you are going to practice in a very remote and underserved part of the country?

What I am trying to say is that both dentists and physicians devote a very large amount of time to their education and learning the skills in order to help people. If you don't think that your time and life is worth anything then work pro-bono. Eat top raman and drive a Kia. For me, I feel that my time is worth something. Is it worth $200,000/year, only if my patients value my services and are willing to pay for them.

just a little comment on this:

- well considering a peds-cards person spends about three times in the education process and works about twice the hours a week i think its reasonable to say that they deserve more, not including the fact that the training is alot more rigorous than a dentists (i'm sure you'll disagree on that)
- secondly i think i should have stated that its not fair for a dentist to earn 1.5million a year and shouldn't have talked about dentists at large, i apologize for that. My mother is a dentist of 20yrs i know how much the average dentist makes, and i basically grew up in her practice while she babysat me in her practice, so please don't give me the bull**** that you dunno what ur talking about, most of the dentists that do make the high incomes, screw their patients into getting unneccessary upgrades
- finally i've been part of sdn for a couple of years now, and sure sometimes i do get bored and say antagonistic comments, as i'm most of u have in the past, doesn't mean that every single comment of mine is a joke, only a minority

 

[Alpha13]

the national average salary for a dentist is around $130K per year

Really? I thought the average was around $150K (just an assumption) If the average is really $130k then there must be a lot of dentists around the $100k mark to counter the big producers. I have never heard of a dentist making $100k a year

 

[TucsonDDS]

just a little comment on this:

- well considering a peds-cards person spends about three times in the education process and works about twice the hours a week i think its reasonable to say that they deserve more, not including the fact that the training is alot more rigorous than a dentists (i'm sure you'll disagree on that)
- secondly i think i should have stated that its not fair for a dentist to earn 1.5million a year and shouldn't have talked about dentists at large, i apologize for that. My mother is a dentist of 20yrs i know how much the average dentist makes, and i basically grew up in her practice while she babysat me in her practice, so please don't give me the bull**** that you dunno what ur talking about, most of the dentists that do make the high incomes, screw their patients into getting unneccessary upgrades
- finally i've been part of sdn for a couple of years now, and sure sometimes i do get bored and say antagonistic comments, as i'm most of u have in the past, doesn't mean that every single comment of mine is a joke, only a minority

I will wholeheartidly agree that a pediatric cardiologist will work many more hours than your average dentist. I also will say that they require more schooling than your average dentist. Do they deserve to make more money than they do, most definitely. However that doesn't mean that Dentists shouldn't make the money that they do. You have to realize that dentists aren't only healthcare professionals, they are also small business owners. Being the owner of a small business is the main reason why dentists make decent money. Physicians for the most part are not small business owners, most are involved in group practice or work directly for the hospitals. The ones that are probably bring in more money than the average, and rightly so.

Now have you discussed with your mom how you don't think that deserves what she makes? Does she really know that you don't feel that her time is worth anything? No, I didn't think that you have.

The AMA has shot themselves in the foot by accepting partial payments from Medicare and insurance companies. This has made a lot of physicians really bitter and it shows in your case. I don't know of any other industry that would accept 30 cents on the dollar for their services and I can only hope that it never becomes the case in Dentistry.

My last point is that it is slander for you to say that a dentist is providing sub-standard and fraudulent care just because they are successful. I think that you owe the above dentist an appology.

And one last question for you. Have you ever had a job or has everything been given to you?

 

[guest]

to a_student and others:

i found offense in your:

"first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less"

I'm a third year dental student and you don't know what it's like to go through dental school. we take a lot of the same classes you do and top it off with preclinical craps and lab stuff, as well as manage our own patients and try to meet graduation requirements.

have you ever try to cut a crown prep without putting any undercuts in it and at the same time not overtapering it? can you tell the difference between 6 degrees and 10 degrees?

how about cutting that ideal class II prep? You start measuring in mm's.

you also forget one thing, it's not just about the money. it's about the glamour. around here, I find that saying I'm a dental student gets a little bit of status, but med students tend to get more glamour. and look at the tv shows, you get ER, grey's anatomy and stuff like Discovery Health. You'll have a nice sexy status in addition to your high income.

and about your comment about dentist overtreating to make 1.5 million. first of all the dentist's take home money is probably somewhere closer to 450K-500K. 1.5Million is the practice's gross. i think claiming that dentists overtreat to make 1.5 million gross is not a reflection of truth. you might be surprised by how ethical and professional we really are, we're taught in school to provide a treatment plan with risk, benefits and options and the patient decides what he/she wants. and heck sometimes patients just walk in and says I want my teeth bleached, or i want veneers on all my front teeth!

my gf is interested in PEDS, she's MS1. she shadowed a pediatrician, they charge at that practice 60 some odd dollars or so for their visits. And obviously he's with one patient at a time. A dentist charges i don't know 120 or so dollars for a class II amalgam, i'm not even sure. And a GP will stay busy, usually working with 2 or even more patients at once. GP's work hard for their money!! But we also PLAY HARD!!!

Sometimes our back gives out, sometimes our eyes give out, we stare into a brightly lit hole day in day out, with our backs (hopefully, minimally) bent over, trying to finish that chamfer margin on the distal lingual of #2 and we do this backwards in the mirror. This justifies why we get fridays off

forgot to mention. i'm glad some people decide to take the long and arduous paths on becoming doctors (my gf for one). there's alot to be said for those that choose to become doctors, the time and effort that they put in. but i suspect that some of the rewards are not just monetary, you'll certainly have that and status, but I'm sure the work doctors do also bring them sastifaction. a_student, you're alright.

 

[a_student]

to a_student and others:

i found offense in your:

"first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less"

I'm a third year dental student and you don't know what it's like to go through dental school. we take a lot of the same classes you do and top it off with preclinical craps and lab stuff, as well as manage our own patients and try to meet graduation requirements.

have you ever try to cut a crown prep without putting any undercuts in it and at the same time not overtapering it? can you tell the difference between 6 degrees and 10 degrees?

how about cutting that ideal class II prep? You start measuring in mm's.

you also forget one thing, it's not just about the money. it's about the glamour. around here, I find that saying I'm a dental student gets a little bit of status, but med students tend to get more glamour. and look at the tv shows, you get ER, grey's anatomy and stuff like Discovery Health. You'll have a nice sexy status in addition to your high income.

and about your comment about dentist overtreating to make 1.5 million. first of all the dentist's take home money is probably somewhere closer to 450K-500K. 1.5Million is the practice's gross. i think claiming that dentists overtreat to make 1.5 million gross is not a reflection of truth. you might be surprised by how ethical and professional we really are, we're taught in school to provide a treatment plan with risk, benefits and options and the patient decides what he/she wants. and heck sometimes patients just walk in and says I want my teeth bleached, or i want veneers on all my front teeth!

my gf is interested in PEDS, she's MS1. she shadowed a pediatrician, they charge at that practice 60 some odd dollars or so for their visits. And obviously he's with one patient at a time. A dentist charges i don't know 120 or so dollars for a class II amalgam, i'm not even sure. And a GP will stay busy, usually working with 2 or even more patients at once. GP's work hard for their money!! But we also PLAY HARD!!!

Sometimes our back gives out, sometimes our eyes give out, we stare into a brightly lit hole day in day out, with our backs (hopefully, minimally) bent over, trying to finish that chamfer margin on the distal lingual of #2 and we do this backwards in the mirror. This justifies why we get fridays off

forgot to mention. i'm glad some people decide to take the long and arduous paths on becoming doctors (my gf for one). there's alot to be said for those that choose to become doctors, the time and effort that they put in. but i suspect that some of the rewards are not just monetary, you'll certainly have that and status, but I'm sure the work doctors do also bring them sastifaction. a_student, you're alright.

i see, i don't mean to offend you or any other person on this board, actually i do really find it disturbing when i'm talking to some punk MS1 and they're like yah i wanna go into plastics and live in so-cal, its just disturbing, i got a sense of that in this thread

have i ever worked for a living? hehe well my mom is a dentist

 

[superchris147]

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

that's the most ignorant post i've ever seen, as well as the "i'm really glad there's managed care blah blah". First of all, i know its already been said by someone else but we take the same classes as the med students at my school this semester as well as 4 more dental related classes. so don't act like dental school is a breeze/easy way to gold

second of all, two of my best friends in my class as well as myself are children of physicians (radiology, either cardiology or vascular surgeon, and Perinatology) you want to know the reason why we're all in dentistry? our parents who are physicians told us to go into dentistry because its a better field in their opinion. you know why they think that? because of managed care and they'r constantly scared of getting sued, all the time. my dad is in a specialty like yours and i'm sure he would love to have a conversation with you about how he gets paid practically nothing for doing a C-section assist at 4 am on saturday morning. or how poor people give him fake numbers/addresses and escape collections and there's nothing he can do about it for political reasons.

if you really think its so unfair then switch your residency while there's still time or point your finger to the AMA or better yet CEOs of health insurance companies.

 

[jdude]

Really? I thought the average was around $150K (just an assumption) If the average is really $130k then there must be a lot of dentists around the $100k mark to counter the big producers. I have never heard of a dentist making $100k a year

I know a dentist who made $55,000 one year.

 

[toofache32]

I know a dentist who made $55,000 one year.

So do I...he works one day a week and fishes the other 6.

 

[toofache32]

first off saying its not fair that dentists make a higher income does not mean that i think doctors should get paid more, but that dentists deserve less

...based on what reasoning?

 

[maksidaa]

at one point i was pre-med and decided to switch to pre-dent mostly due to all the stuff mentioned about being sued and not wanting to get screwed by insurance companies and the gov.'t. i can't think of any other profession that goes through so much trouble to have so little control over their own jobs. if you go into medicine and love it great, but don't blame any one else for your problems or lack of income. my wife works at the er of a hospital and comes home everyday telling me how much she hates the government for the way it's health care system is set up. all day everyday she sees people with colds coming in with their entire families asking somebody "why hasn't the doctor seen me yet?" and then they ask for a work excuse (like they're still in high school or something) for everyone that came with them and then they flip our their gov't info while they buy chips and coke for their kids dressed in name brand gear from head to toe. as long as the gov't supports this type of lifestyle the healthcare system in this country will only get worse.
as for making money by telling people they need certain op.'s when they really don't, the dentist i shadowed made plenty of money b/c he was honest and tried to help his patients get the care they needed. if he did a bad job, he re-did it for free. if the procedure they needed was gonna be too much money, he planned with the patient how to get the best care for the least amount of money and helped them determine how to pay for it all. his most ungrateful patients were the ones carrying gov't cards in their pockets.

 

[a_student]

at one point i was pre-med and decided to switch to pre-dent mostly due to all the stuff mentioned about being sued and not wanting to get screwed by insurance companies and the gov.'t. i can't think of any other profession that goes through so much trouble to have so little control over their own jobs. if you go into medicine and love it great, but don't blame any one else for your problems or lack of income. my wife works at the er of a hospital and comes home everyday telling me how much she hates the government for the way it's health care system is set up. all day everyday she sees people with colds coming in with their entire families asking somebody "why hasn't the doctor seen me yet?" and then they ask for a work excuse (like they're still in high school or something) for everyone that came with them and then they flip our their gov't info while they buy chips and coke for their kids dressed in name brand gear from head to toe. as long as the gov't supports this type of lifestyle the healthcare system in this country will only get worse.
as for making money by telling people they need certain op.'s when they really don't, the dentist i shadowed made plenty of money b/c he was honest and tried to help his patients get the care they needed. if he did a bad job, he re-did it for free. if the procedure they needed was gonna be too much money, he planned with the patient how to get the best care for the least amount of money and helped them determine how to pay for it all. his most ungrateful patients were the ones carrying gov't cards in their pockets.

i know, it is really unfortunate that some abuse the system. i don't know what to say to that. but it still is a very scary thought to me of someone not going to the doctor with a lump on their breast because they don't have health insurance, something i have personally seen

there has to be a better way to control medicaid and medicare, i know many of my mother's colleagues don't accept these policies, and that many of the ppl that use them abuse the system, its pretty sad

i think in the end though when someones sick, as a being they deserve to see a doctor

 

[adamlc18]

i know, it is really unfortunate that some abuse the system. i don't know what to say to that. but it still is a very scary thought to me of someone not going to the doctor with a lump on their breast because they don't have health insurance, something i have personally seen

there has to be a better way to control medicaid and medicare, i know many of my mother's colleagues don't accept these policies, and that many of the ppl that use them abuse the system, its pretty sad

i think in the end though when someones sick, as a being they deserve to see a doctor

I think in the end though, doctors should be paid for their work and time, just like every other profession.

 

[Unemployed]

Really? I thought the average was around $150K (just an assumption) If the average is really $130k then there must be a lot of dentists around the $100k mark to counter the big producers. I have never heard of a dentist making $100k a year

I remember reading on the ADA website that the national average income of GP is around $170,000, while specialist hover near $260,000. I haven't discovered the national average for physicians, but would it be safe to guess that it's around $210,000?

 

[Rezdawg]

I remember reading on the ADA website that the national average income of GP is around $170,000, while specialist hover near $260,000. I haven't discovered the national average for physicians, but would it be safe to guess that it's around $210,000?

According to the ADA,

"In 2002, the average independent general practitioner's net income from primary private practice was $174,350. The average independent specialist’s net income was $291,250. These figures represent a 0.7 percent and a 5.8 percent increase over the 2001 average net incomes for independent general practitioners and specialists, respectively."

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.asp#private


Based on trends, its safe to assume those numbers have risen slightly from 2002. Wow, thats a lot of money.

 

[a_student]

According to the ADA,

"In 2002, the average independent general practitioner's net income from primary private practice was $174,350. The average independent specialist’s net income was $291,250. These figures represent a 0.7 percent and a 5.8 percent increase over the 2001 average net incomes for independent general practitioners and specialists, respectively."

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.asp#private


Based on trends, its safe to assume those numbers have risen slightly from 2002. Wow, thats a lot of money.

Anesthesiology
Compensation ranges from $255,000 to $380,714
Cardiology (noninvasive)
Compensation ranges from $267,500 to $380,000
Emergency Medicine
Compensation ranges from $167,621 to $246,760
Family Practice
Compensation ranges from $146,000 to $170,682
General Surgery
Compensation ranges from $232,500 to $297,208
Hospitalist
Compensation ranges from $139,900 to $186,500
Internal Medicine
Compensation ranges from $147,417 to $212,000
Neurology
Compensation ranges from $169,304 to $246,636
Obstetrics/Gynecology
Compensation ranges from $221,286 to $295,200
Oncology
Compensation ranges from $228,141 to $389,167
Pathology
Compensation ranges from $204,698 to $360,000
Pediatrics
Compensation ranges from $131,000 to $172,058
Psychiatry
Compensation ranges from $145,000 to $202,800
Radiology
Compensation ranges from $201,699 to $445,333
Urology
Compensation ranges from $251,974 to $437,818

 

[a_student]

Anesthesiology
Compensation ranges from $255,000 to $380,714
Cardiology (noninvasive)
Compensation ranges from $267,500 to $380,000
Emergency Medicine
Compensation ranges from $167,621 to $246,760
Family Practice
Compensation ranges from $146,000 to $170,682
General Surgery
Compensation ranges from $232,500 to $297,208
Hospitalist
Compensation ranges from $139,900 to $186,500
Internal Medicine
Compensation ranges from $147,417 to $212,000
Neurology
Compensation ranges from $169,304 to $246,636
Obstetrics/Gynecology
Compensation ranges from $221,286 to $295,200
Oncology
Compensation ranges from $228,141 to $389,167
Pathology
Compensation ranges from $204,698 to $360,000
Pediatrics
Compensation ranges from $131,000 to $172,058
Psychiatry
Compensation ranges from $145,000 to $202,800
Radiology
Compensation ranges from $201,699 to $445,333
Urology
Compensation ranges from $251,974 to $437,818

pediatrics takes the cake

 

[TKD]

pediatrics takes the cake

Dude are you seriously in med school? I don't have the time, so instead ask any attending what there thoughts are re: managed care.
Once you're in practice, think of us dentists next time you wanna order some lab tests and/or radiography and then find out you can't b/c "it's not covered" unless you write a freakin 10-page long explanation, or the disease/disorder is not severe enough to warrant further evaluation according to some insurance rep.

On a side note, I went out to dinner with a burnt out (after 3 yrs only ) family practice MD who explained to me that he is so caught up with bureaucratic HMO's and managed care that in order to make a decent income he's employing 2 PA's to basically to a lot of his work.....unsupervised. what's up with that????

 

[toofache32]

pediatrics takes the cake

What the hell does this have to do with dentistry?

 

[Sprgrover]

What the hell does this have to do with dentistry?

Exactly.

 

[a_student]

Exactly.

someone asked the averages for physicians

 

[Rube]

i know, it is really unfortunate that some abuse the system. i don't know what to say to that. but it still is a very scary thought to me of someone not going to the doctor with a lump on their breast because they don't have health insurance, something i have personally seen

there has to be a better way to control medicaid and medicare, i know many of my mother's colleagues don't accept these policies, and that many of the ppl that use them abuse the system, its pretty sad

i think in the end though when someones sick, as a being they deserve to see a doctor

Can we just cut the bs. Medicine sucks as a carrier and it has for the last 20 years. Every physician I know has whined to me about not being a professional anymore. I'm not going to waste my breath trying to be balanced here--the medical profession frankly doesn't deserve it anymore. Medicine has become where a bunch of liberals go now to have a carrier. Its ridiculous how many women are in medicine right now. Many of them are there because its part of the feminist dream-- their baby boomer mothers told them to go become a DOCTOR and yes they are smart enough and driven and they do care, but most will never practice more than a couple of years before they realize they were born to have children. Are these the people you want taking up spaces in med schools? Are these the people you want protecting and growing the stature and prestige of medicine? Most of these women docs now support some sort of socialized medicine. As an example, the AMA used to be one of the most kick-a*s conservative professional associations in America. Now it is one of the most unguided groups around taking liberal political positions on irrelevant issues like abortion, for example.

Back 35 years ago medicine used to be where smart men went who wanted to help but also too get rich. That's not the case anymore. Its going down hill and will continue to go down hill because frankly because the aggressive, professionally-oriented people aren't going into medicine anymore. The MD is becoming the new law degree for the smart and talented.

My apologies to the exceptions in my above generalization, especially to any of the few talented women who don't fit that category, but I think there is a whole lotta truth to what I've said.

So, a_student, medicine has suffered enough and frankly it doesn't need another bleeding-heart liberal diluting the profession even more. If you've got a problem with what's happening to money and prestige in medicine, don't come trolling the dental boards. Medicine's demise is the fault of attitudes like yours and its those attitudes that allow the democratic politicians, trial lawyers and the general public to b*tch-slap your profession around stealing the hard earned dollars from MDs.

As I said, I'm not going to waste my breath explaining all the good things about medicine. We all know them and we are all thankful for them.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Can we just cut the bs. Medicine sucks as a carrier and it has for the last 20 years. Every physician I know has whined to me about not being a professional anymore. I'm not going to waste my breath trying to be balanced here--the medical profession frankly doesn't deserve it anymore. Medicine has become where a bunch of liberals go now to have a carrier. Its ridiculous how many women are in medicine right now. Many of them are there because its part of the feminist dream-- their baby boomer mothers told them to go become a DOCTOR and yes they are smart enough and driven and they do care, but most will never practice more than a couple of years before they realize they were born to have children. Are these the people you want taking up spaces in med schools? Are these the people you want protecting and growing the stature and prestige of medicine? Most of these women docs now support some sort of socialized medicine. As an example, the AMA used to be one of the most kick-a*s conservative professional associations in America. Now it is one of the most unguided groups around taking liberal political positions on irrelevant issues like abortion, for example.

Back 35 years ago medicine used to be where smart men went who wanted to help but also too get rich. That's not the case anymore. Its going down hill and will continue to go down hill because frankly because the aggressive, professionally-oriented people aren't going into medicine anymore. The MD is becoming the new law degree for the smart and talented.

My apologies to the exceptions in my above generalization, especially to any of the few talented women who don't fit that category, but I think there is a whole lotta truth to what I've said.

So, a_student, medicine has suffered enough and frankly it doesn't need another bleeding-heart liberal diluting the profession even more. If you've got a problem with what's happening to money and prestige in medicine, don't come trolling the dental boards. Medicine's demise is the fault of attitudes like yours and its those attitudes that allow the democratic politicians, trial lawyers and the general public to b*tch-slap your profession around stealing the hard earned dollars from MDs.

As I said, I'm not going to waste my breath explaining all the good things about medicine. We all know them and we are all thankful for them.

Sad but true, very true.

 

[phremius]

Can we just cut the bs. Medicine sucks as a carrier .... a bunch of liberals go now to have a carrier.

it doesn't need another bleeding-heart liberal diluting the profession even more.

1) How smart does one have to be in order to differentiate CAREER and CARRIER?

2) Better to be a bleeding heart than a no-heart. "Dilute the profession"??! Hell then watch out dentistry here I come!

 

[jpollei]

Boy, this thread is going nowhere fast!

If I had $100 for every time a MD (of whatever specialty flavor you like) commented to me that he/she wished he/she had chosen dentistry instead of whatever aspect of medicine he/she practices now, I'd have made money during dental school!

 

[Bifid Uvula]

Boy, this thread is going nowhere fast!

If I had $100 for every time a MD (of whatever specialty flavor you like) commented to me that he/she wished he/she had chosen dentistry instead of whatever aspect of medicine he/she practices now, I'd have made money during dental school!

I'm an oral surgery resident... a buddy of mine finished his residency in General Surgery and he keeps telling me that if he had to do it all over again, he would have chosen the lifestyle of a dentist. He still thinks I'm crazy for wearing that stupid pager and having to deal with all this crap for the sake of being a surgeon when i could just be a happy general dentist who gets to stay home and sleep at night.

 

[drengineer]

Man, that's a lot of serious money we are talking about.

 

[bkwash]

For some strange reason Dentistry has a negative stigma attached to it. I wish I knew where it came from...a dentist makes more money, works less, and has control over their work. When deciding between the two dentistry was an easy choice. However, I did find opposition from my family and professors, who would always pose the question "why not medicine?" It seems that for the baby boomer generation the MD is the more "accepted" health profession. I wonder if the trend will be reversed in 20 years?