How the hell do you produce 1.5 MILLION a year???

[BroJoMoJo]

"Its ridiculous how many women are in medicine right now. Many of them are there because its part of the feminist dream-- their baby boomer mothers told them to go become a DOCTOR and yes they are smart enough and driven and they do care, but most will never practice more than a couple of years before they realize they were born to have children. Are these the people you want taking up spaces in med schools? Are these the people you want protecting and growing the stature and prestige of medicine? "

Rube, what kind of psychobabble is that? As a woman starting into the field of dentistry this fall, I take a certain amount of offense at those remarks. I'm not going into my career because I'm a feminist. I'm going because I honestly feel I can make a difference in the oral health care of our nation...and by doing so, hopefully the overall health as well! And yes, eventually I want kids...but I'm not going to abandon my practice. Give women of today a little credit. We can do it all--family, career, managing a home, etc.--, especially if our spouses are the considerate wonderful men we always brag to our friends that they are So do you think I'd be just "taking up space"? If so, you've got another think coming, Mr.!

That said, if you want quality work, you pay quality price--whether it be dentistry or medicine. Physicians do deserve proper compensation for their time, but dentists work hard too.

I love sex too but dont think that is going to stop me from going to the office in the morning. We women need to stick together and put an end to this idea that just because we have ovaries we are not going to contribute to dentistry or medicine.

Funny, I'm a girl going into dentistry solely for the financial independence it brings. Then if I so choose, I can have as many babies, husbands, lovers, etc. as I like and never have to depend on anyone for anything.

Suck on that.

I was going to reply to his rude comment (Yes, I realize how old this thread is, I don't care.), but I'm glad you girls beat me to it.

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[Avrelian]

Hours worked and years of training has nothing to do with income. Supply and demand for our services dictates income.

I agree wholeheartedly. Would you also agree that ADA got something to do with the income level also, at least in the supply part? And if you do, can you really tell us about the market laws in this instance?

 

[Frank22]

I have a question: if many dentists are making so much money, than why do few of them have million dollar homes (most dentists I know have $500,000 homes)?

 

[yappy]

because being home poor sucks.

I have a question: if many dentists are making so much money, than why do few of them have million dollar homes (most dentists I know have $500,000 homes)?

 

[Frank22]

because being home poor sucks.

I see, so even if a dentist making $300,000 a year could afford a million-dollar home, they wouldn't do so comfortably, as a a result they choose to buy less expensive homes.

 

[MentalFloss2012]

.

 

[7 Iron]

I have a question: if many dentists are making so much money, than why do few of them have million dollar homes (most dentists I know have $500,000 homes)?

I think because some of their income goes to paying down practice loans and other things related to their practice, right?

 

[Daurang]

I have a question: if many dentists are making so much money, than why do few of them have million dollar homes (most dentists I know have $500,000 homes)?

...because you don't live in coastal California. If the dentist live near Tampa or Atlanta, you only need to pay $150K for an equivalent $1Million home in San Jose.

 

[Frank22]

...because you don't live in coastal California. If the dentist live near Tampa or Atlanta, you only need to pay $150K for an equivalent $1Million home in San Jose.

I noticed that a lot of dentists in CA have million dollar homes (I know several that have six-million dollar ones, but they're only about 4,000 or 5,000 square feet)--I live in Michigan, where one can purchase a mansion (8,000 square feet or more) for about $1,500,000.

Does that mean that most dentists in California are house poor, or are they making more?

 

[Daurang]

I noticed that a lot of dentists in CA have million dollar homes (I know several that have six-million dollar ones, but they're only about 4,000 or 5,000 square feet)--I live in Michigan, where one can purchase a mansion (8,000 square feet or more) for about $1,500,000.

Does that mean that most dentists in California are house poor, or are they making more?

Everyone have to live somewhere. The burgers flipper and assemblers live in the $400k shack. The engineers live in decent $700k house with practically no yard. The dentists have to live in a $1Mil home, which isn't a lot to speak of in coastal area. There is no choice even if they make more, because an awesome nice home for $150K simply don't exist.

 

[yappy]

right. 300k/yr doesnt warrant a 1mil mortgage (to me). Though, if living in a super nice home is important, you can save for a sizable down payment over the years so you can take out a sm mortgage. I guess it's about priorities. Just dont bite off more than you can chew and realize while you cannot have it all you can get those few things that might be important to you.

Everything has an opportunity cost.

I see, so even if a dentist making $300,000 a year could afford a million-dollar home, they wouldn't do so comfortably, as a a result they choose to buy less expensive homes.

 

[Frank22]

right. 300k/yr doesnt warrant a 1mil mortgage (to me). Though, if living in a super nice home is important, you can save for a sizable down payment over the years so you can take out a sm mortgage. I guess it's about priorities. Just dont bite off more than you can chew and realize while you cannot have it all you can get those few things that might be important to you.

Everything has an opportunity cost.

I'd think a dentist would be able to afford a far more expensive home after they've payed off their student loans, and especially the loan for their practice. Unfortunately, the loan for a practice can take up to ten years to pay off.

I'd think you'd need to have a pre-tax net income of about $700,000, a down payment of $196,000, and payed off your student loans to afford a house like this, for example:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5200-Coventry-Ln-Oakland-MI-48306/2131319976_zpid/#3

While a dentist could probably afford a home like this will still paying off their practice and student loans will little to no down payment:

http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...rnes-Ct_Troy_MI_48098_M46964-54235?source=webhttp://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1914-Barnes-Ct-Troy-MI-48098/24521118_zpid/

It seems that most of any given dentist's wealth comes after about ten years in practice, unless they take a practice that's grossing relatively little (e.g., $500,000 a year) and build it into a much larger practice (e.g., $1,200,000 or more a year).

 

[DrJeff]

The thing is that nowadays, what a bank is willing to lend a potential client for a mortgage vs. what they were willing to lend pre housing bust is different, and smaller. Heck, just a refinance these days is way more cumbersome and nitpicky than it used to be a few years ago (as my wife and I recently found out on both our regular and ski houses) That being said, a dentist to most mortgage lenders is still viewed as a very good "risk" and as such what they'll offer you as a maximum lending amount may very well suprise you with how much it is! That being said there very often is a definite difference between what a mortgage lender thinks you can pay maximum for a house and what you can actually pay to both afford the house and still live a lifestyle that you're comfortable with.

Best mortgage advice I ever heard was that the price point of a house that realistically you should look at is between 2/3rds and 3/4ths of what the maximum is that you're approved for. That way you have a good amount of monthly cash flow left for the rest of your living expenses

 

[Frank22]

Dr.Jeff, I've heard that any given doctor can afford a mortgage 28% to 36% of their gross income. So for example, a doctor grossing $300,000 a year can afford a monthly mortgage of $7,000.00 to $9,000.00 a month. I don't know much about financing so I'll trust your explanation more lol.

 

[DrJeff]

Dr.Jeff, I've heard that any given doctor can afford a mortgage 28% to 33% of their gross income. So for example, a doctor grossing $300,000 a year can afford a monthly mortgage of $7,000.00 to $8,333.33 a month. I don't know much about financing so I'll trust your explanation more lol.

The key thing to remember is that there really aren't any rules, since each person has different financial obligations. You could have 2 docs both grossing 300k a year, one doc with all of his/her student loan/practice loans/car loans paid off/no kids/etc where he/she might be able to afford a 10k monthly mortgage and have plenty of cashflow left for regular living expenses. The other doc might have 150k of student loan debt to still pay off, still in the middle of a practice buy in, 2 car loans, 3 young kids in the family (trust me when I say as a parent of a 6 and an 8 year old its scary sometimes how much $$ you spend on them a month!! )/etc where for them a 3k a month mortgage is appropriate for them to be able to have the cashflow left for regular expenses.

You really need to sit down and have a good solid grasp of what your monthly cashflow is like to allow you to handle all your regular expenses, and preferably have some left over at months end to save each and every month, and then YOU determine what your comfortable with monthly for a mortgage, rather then some mortgage lender taking a look at your cashflow and then telling you what he/she thinks you'd be comfortable with as a monthly mortgage payment. They'll almost always try and "max you out" since they larger a mortgage they "sell" typically the larger the commission they get. That's all fine and dandy, since that's how the free business market works.

 

[toofache32]

Dr.Jeff, I've heard that any given doctor can afford a mortgage 28% to 36% of their gross income. So for example, a doctor grossing $300,000 a year can afford a monthly mortgage of $7,000.00 to $9,000.00 a month. I don't know much about financing so I'll trust your explanation more lol.

Hmmm....that percentage of gross would equal about half your take-home pay. The rule of thumb I have read is no more than 25% of your take-home (after tax) pay. Mine is currently about 15%. Also remember that the more you spend now, the less you can put away for retirement. Don't be one of those doctors in their late 60s who is still working because they have to.

 

[Frank22]

Hmmm....that percentage of gross would equal about half your take-home pay. The rule of thumb I have read is no more than 25% of your take-home (after tax) pay. Mine is currently about 15%. Also remember that the more you spend now, the less you can put away for retirement. Don't be one of those doctors in their late 60s who is still working because they have to.

I read a book in the past that said you should save 20% of your income, pocket and spend freely 30%, and use 50% on "needs" (mortgage, etc...).

To clarify, the total debt for the house (mortgage, homeowner insurance, property taxes, and whatever fees may be associated with it) should not exceed 28% of gross income, which is the equivalent of about 35% (this can obviously vary somewhat by state) of your income after taxes. Your total debt (the debt associated with the house, plus student loans, car payments, credit cards, and et cetera) should be no more than 36% of your gross income.

I got this idea from the following link: http://loan.yahoo.com/m/basics6.html

Dr. Jeff, that does sound very reasonable (hell, some people can live in the woods making under $1,000 a year and be more comfortable than a millionaire), I was just hoping that as a dentist we could really afford the large luxurious homes we so often hear of doctors having while growing up. I hope I'm not coming off as selfish--I going under the assumption that most of us are pursuing (or have achieved) a career as a dentist to contribute to society but also to make money.

 

[DrJeff]

I read a book in the past that said you should save 20% of your income, pocket and spend freely 30%, and use 50% on "needs" (mortgage, etc...).

To clarify, the total debt for the house (mortgage, homeowner insurance, property taxes, and whatever fees may be associated with it) should not exceed 28% of gross income, which is the equivalent of about 35% (this can obviously vary somewhat by state) of your income after taxes. Your total debt (the debt associated with the house, plus student loans, car payments, credit cards, and et cetera) should be no more than 36% of your gross income.

I got this idea from the following link: http://loan.yahoo.com/m/basics6.html

Dr. Jeff, that does sound very reasonable (hell, some people can live in the woods making under $1,000 a year and be more comfortable than a millionaire), I was just hoping that as a dentist we could really afford the large luxurious homes we so often hear of doctors having while growing up. I hope I'm not coming off as selfish--I going under the assumption that most of us are pursuing (or have achieved) a career as a dentist to contribute to society but also to make money.

Just keep in mind that while many dentists EVENTUALLY end up living in that big home, most of them started off buying a much smaller home and then, if they so choose, upsize (or add on) at a later date when the cash flow, and very often spacial needs that a growing family may desire, have changed.

Personally with my "comfort level" of financial risk, i'd much rather start off, and be in a home for a while where I might be wishing that I had some more square feet, but yet have a decent amount of $$ left over after paying all my bills each month, than start off with a home with a bunch of excess square feet (do most folks really right away need that 400 sq. ft. dining room that they might use once or twice a year? etc) and be wishing at the end of some months that I had less square feet and more $$ left over for other things??

By no means am I saying live like a pauper. But what I strongly advocate is to live responsibily within a comfortable budget. The earlier and the more $$ you can put away towards retirement, the sooner you can achieve the financial independence that so many people only dream about these days

 

[yappy]

I get the feeling that frank is going to be bankrupt 4 years post grad lol.

j/k Frank.

 

[Frank22]

I get the feeling that frank is going to be bankrupt 4 years post grad lol.

j/k Frank.

Well, I'd like to think dentistry is what you make it: some people would be happy making 150K a year on a three or four day workweek, others are more interested in building that $2-million+ practice with low overhead that nets them a mill or more a year on a five day workweek.

 

[KAIN DDS]

I was going to reply to his rude comment (Yes, I realize how old this thread is, I don't care.), but I'm glad you girls beat me to it.

Is he crazy it's not the mothers it's the fathers trying to protect there daughters from being taking adv by sexist men

 

[TheToothsayer]

Wonder what his overhead is!

 

[KAIN DDS]

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

Holy crap 200k for that! U should get double!

 

[Jillian91]

I was chatting with one of our part time faculty who does over one and a half million a year!!! 4 day work week, solo, 3 hygenist and he helps out in our clinic one day a week.

I'm guessing:
He has to be producing $7500 a Day! Hygiene maybe $2500-$3000 that leaves him $5000.
How realistic is this?

It is very possible. I work at MPDental, that is in Menlo Park, CA and I think we make even more than that. It all depends on the clients you work with. Keep in mind, Tom Cruise pays more for the same work than a regular client

 

[corymartin2012]

Keep in mind, Tom Cruise pays more for the same work than a regular client

Thats just not right. Thats inequality at its finest. You shouldn't charge any patient more than another unless you are supplying even higher quality. Charges should not be income-based.

 

[yappy]

Avg salary from 2010 MGMA survey for interventional cardiology was $537,624. A far cry from <200k. As the above poster pointed out - he will earn more than double. In fact, if he makes it into the 90th percentile of earners, a percentile consistent with 1.5mil dental practice, the earnings were $811,697.

i'm in medschool and this thread caught my eyes, so i'm just writing out my thoughts

i'm an MS3 at a top 20 medical school and plan on going to pediatric cardiology which requires:

4years of medschool
3years of pediatric residency
3years of a cardiology fellowship + 1yr interventional training

after this the average pediatric cardiologist works about 60-70hours a week and makes less than 200grand/year

i know i'd be insane if i entered this field for the money, and i truly do love being around kids and helping them, but it does seem a little unfair that dentists are making this much money

 

[trinstudent]

Avg salary from 2010 MGMA survey for interventional cardiology was $537,624. A far cry from <200k. As the above poster pointed out - he will earn more than double. In fact, if he makes it into the 90th percentile of earners, a percentile consistent with 1.5mil dental practice, the earnings were $811,697.

He said pediatric cardiology, not adult.