"How Private Equity Is Ruining American Health Care."

[Splenda88]

No, she's a lay person who's probably on television for the first time and a little nervous. And you're using one off anecdotes to condemn an entire swath of employment that happens to pay the best in our country compared to pretty much every other profession and I reiterate that it is BS and a waste of air. Or in this case, I guess entropy to type.

Since she is an expert, you should ask her what entropy is.

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[Lem0nz]

Since she is an expert, you should ask her what entropy is.

Maybe instead of deferring to ten second clips on twitter you should actually defend your stance with evidence. ****, I'll even accept some mildly informed opinion.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

Eh, few people have failed out at my school, as in very few. Almost all students, except a very small percentage, are essentially guaranteed 6 figure jobs, likely above $200,000. Meanwhile, coding is a big competition with significantly more competitors for fewer jobs paying that well. Lower barrier to entry, but higher barrier for physician level incomes.

You’re missing the biggest consideration of all: in software, you can get kicked to the curb at 45 years old in the blink of an eye. Then your savings starts bleeding while you desperately fight for the few openings that exist for a “management” position like you just had. And it bleeds fast, cause there’s only a handful of cities that really have lucrative opportunities, and they’re all brutally expensive. But there’s a dozen people just like you applying for each of those jobs, because software only needs so many managers. The military only needs so many generals, but at least when you get the boot you’re covered. You fall off the pyramid in software and it’s a never ending cycle of disappointment and relief. Repeat.

Then there’s medicine... where anyone who just makes it to the finish line from a us school can go FM and match those manager salaries as early as their late 20s. And they can do so anywhere their little heart desires, without worrying that one day they will be unemployed again for the 4th time in 10 years. I never got the grass is greener in software thing—the grass sucks over there.

 

[Splenda88]

Maybe instead of deferring to ten second clips on twitter you should actually defend your stance with evidence. ****, I'll even accept some mildly informed opinion.

There is no place for NP (not PA) in medicine until they get trained properly. Period.

 

[Lem0nz]

There is no place for NP (not PA) in medicine until they get trained properly. Period.

Like I said. When you're ready to add something useful to this discussion, I'll be ready to have an intelligent conversation with you. In the mean time I shall simply ask that pre-meds and medical students first ignore this kid who is tilting at windmills and then second strongly consider continuing to invest their youth and money into medicine if it is their passion, because with a lot of hard work and even a tenth of the situational awareness of an inanimate object, you will have a wonderful career that pays well and can have amazing job satisfaction doing something very few people in the world can do.

 

[Splenda88]

InvestigateTV - InvestigateTV

www.investigatetv.com

 

[Lem0nz]

InvestigateTV - InvestigateTV

www.investigatetv.com

How is this relevant? Use bigger words than a first grader who found the quote button in SDN.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

How is this relevant? Use bigger words than a first grader who found the quote button in SDN.

That assignment sounds sweet though. Glenn close was crazy as a bed bug in that movie. Paper writes itself.

 

[Lem0nz]

That assignment sounds sweet though. Glenn close was crazy as a bed bug in that movie. Paper writes itself.

I've had a touch to drink tonight and I'm being a little more aggressive than normal but I gotta say this reply made me happy.

 

[DrDooFenSchmirtZ]

Going into medicine in 2021 is the biggest career mistake you'll make in your life.

Re

How Private Equity Is Ruining American Health Care

Investors have been buying up doctor’s offices, cutting costs, and, critics say, putting pressure on physicians in ways that hurt patients. The pandemic could make things even worse.

www.bloomberg.com

Better think hard if you are a premed before 'wasting' your youth and $$$ on a medical degree...

What everyone posting here including the non-Physicians non-premeds, should be concerned, and really, be quite up in arms about is the carving out of the two-tiered healthcare as we speak. Hospitals that can “afford” Physicians will have Physicians caring for its community. The rest will have Non-Physicians. No other Western country has itself in such a predicament. And those who “execute” such laws prescribe these things to others, but not to themselves. The real great danger I see is really a total collapse of a transparent and level capitalist playing field paving the way for “mob rule”, “populists” stoking the anger and finally a collapse of everything we hoped to continue building upon. Medicine... is just one example of a deeper problem. But one that affects family members, real actual lives and souls in the most fundamental basic level- to live.

You can’t discriminate against NPs for not being so privileged that they don’t have a medical degree. Everyone’s equal and doctors are elitist, boohooo

 

[Crayola227]

Tell that to the people grinding 60 hour weeks in meaningless corporate America making 60k to have the chance to make 6 figures one day, everything is relative

And tell me, do those people feel that they are literally grinding the very meat and bones, the actual flesh of other living human beings, while they are still alive, into grist for the capitalist industriomedical complex, knowing they are causing direct harm to another human being's body, for money? It's worse than prostitution that way, at least in that case when you **** the customer they actually enjoy it even while you give them HIV.

Yes, when people tell you how awful it is to work for corporate medicine compared to other industries, they often don't preface the statement saying what a mistake it is *for people who are altruistic to have to harm people directly*. How about not even particularly idealist types, just the normal human empathy the average bloke possesses, is severely challenged.

There is truly something degrading to the soul to day in day out put your hands on that many people a day, being forced to reduce them to someone else's increased profits and watching them suffer, like they're nothing, and for no reason than to save money to increase the bottom line. When I think of what medical school taught me, and I know is optimal care, and then I think of the way that is compromised and set aside in the actual practice of medicine today, it makes me physically ill.

The flavor of that is likely a touch less dramatic in say derm than in hospital IM, but the reality of what laying hands that hurt people who don't want to be hurt, for money, does to you, cannot be overstated.

To be honest, I felt more honor and dignity when I used to work sorting garbage for $6.10 an hour, or washing dishes, than a lot of days working in the hospital.

You ever work in a memory care center? The kinda places where you know people are breaking hips and getting bedsores just because you know you're understaffed and there isn't enough money to see that the residents are seen to? It's a few steps up from that inpatient, but being paid 15 times as much per hour doesn't actually make the emotional cost less, actually. Maybe it makes it worse. They've done studies to that effect, I'll save that for the next post.

For some people, it's really hard to know you've hurt another person that was trusting you, because you made a mistake, but you did your best. I can still sleep at night, but it's not as easy. It's not much easier when you know the right thing and can't do it, because you'll get in trouble with the hospital because of profits. The patient suffers. And you could do a better job in theory, but the way medicine is structured as a business, you can't.

The article points out that there's something special about the industry and applying the profit motive that doesn't exist the same way in other industries.

But sure, dismiss the article and tell yourself it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

Tell that to the people grinding 60 hour weeks in meaningless corporate America making 60k to have the chance to make 6 figures one day, everything is relative

stop being dramatic

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

Not entirely. Going to a hospital is like going to a movie theater. Everything's overpriced. PE sees this and are licking their chops at how instead of charging $30 for a pair of gloves, they can charge $25.

The bloat is the 100k salary for a nurse who has a bachelors degree and whose skills are not that technical.. You. And there are nothing but nurses around . Not to mention the salaries of other support staff that dont even treat or talk to patients. And last but not least, all the administrators who are utterly useless, who everything they try to engineer makes things worse..

 

[babagandu2424]

But capitalism is the best and no one can question it!

Well, equality or growth. Pick one.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

That is a perspective I fear most won't appreciate here. I believe its 100% correct though. "Non traditional" applicants or students are abundant but often means they did a masters program or some academic/research position before matriculating. My school lacks people that actually worked for a paycheck to pay a mortgage etc. I can only account for my school though. Most people that make complaints never worked any jobs besides medicine. Prior to starting medical school I was working 50-60 hours a week as a paramedic on an 911 ambulance, burnt out and stressed for less than 50k a year. I do admit that things aren't as rosy as before, but to call it "the biggest career mistake you'll ever make" is just ignorant. It compares it to what it used to be or some idea of what you thought it would be.

edit for typo

Medicine does not reward people who are just simply "really good" at their jobs financially. You can be really,really good or very mediocre and basically the rewards are the same.

In sales or any other similar profession, if you are really, really, good at what you do my guess is you will far exceed anybody's income including the 1 percent and you will can find a job anywhere. This notion that people outside of medicine are all making 60k for 60 hours per week is nonsense. All the big houses in my neighborhood are not owned by people in healthcare.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

I'd say depends on the school. Going to a newer DO program and matching rads, anesthesia, etc is more accessible than getting hired into FAANG type places that have you making 200k + stock within a few years. Where you go to college warps perceptions a lot too, your options coming out of a "top 20" are very different than the local State satellite. Not everyone has wall street recruiters on campus but everyone can take BCPM 101 and study for the MCAT

you are forgetting about talent.. If you are really talented, it doesn't matter where you went to school you will be sought after everywhere.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

To be honest, I felt more honor and dignity when I used to work sorting garbage for $6.10 an hour, or washing dishes, than a lot of days working in the hospital.


But sure, dismiss the article and tell yourself it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere.

Your post is on the F****ing money.. You need to expand on it..

Every morning my trip into the hospital I experience Nausea and it really doesnt go away until I am walking out. Its weird.

 

[Splenda88]

Thinking about it now, I think physicians are undervalued. Healthcare facilities use our license to make the payroll. I think PCP should get paid 500k-600k working 40 hrs/wk

 

[efle]

you are forgetting about talent.. If you are really talented, it doesn't matter where you went to school you will be sought after everywhere.

If you say so. If you look through the list of supreme court justices for the last century you wont see much in the way of third tier toilets. Medicine is better at least.

 

[Lawpy]

If you say so. If you look through the list of supreme court justices for the last century you wont see much in the way of third tier toilets. Medicine is better at least.

Aren't law schools outside of T14 or so generally crap anyways? Law market sucks to the point that going T14 is a necessity. So i agree that even EM/radonc >>>>>> law

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'd say depends on the school. Going to a newer DO program and matching rads, anesthesia, etc is more accessible than getting hired into FAANG type places that have you making 200k + stock within a few years. Where you go to college warps perceptions a lot too, your options coming out of a "top 20" are very different than the local State satellite. Not everyone has wall street recruiters on campus but everyone can take BCPM 101 and study for the MCAT

Agreed. I went to natty lite U. There’s essentially zero connections to these crazy high earning careers everyone on here is always talking about.

 

[Lawpy]

Agreed. I went to natty lite U. There’s essentially zero connections to these crazy high earning careers everyone on here is always talking about.

Yet even more tragic evidence of how popular SDN is for the elitist, top 1% folks

 

[Redpancreas]

The bloat is the 100k salary for a nurse who has a bachelors degree and whose skills are not that technical.. You. And there are nothing but nurses around . Not to mention the salaries of other support staff that dont even treat or talk to patients. And last but not least, all the administrators who are utterly useless, who everything they try to engineer makes things worse..

I disagree. I think nurses deserve high salaries. The extent is debatable.

Nurses do all the following:

1.) Start IVs, draw blood in urgent settings. Some physicians can do this, but not all are willing/able to. Phlebotomists only come qAM and oftentimes mess up.
2.) Serve as a human in the otherwise automated medical world we have developed. We order labs and there's a glitch. Who realizes it? The nurse who then makes the right decision. We order fluids and lasix on a HF patient. Who realizes it?
3.) Communicate with the patients on our behalf. When patients are upset with their care, nurses know their patients extremely well and can communicate 90% of the care plan and know when to contact a physician.
4.) Serve as our eyes and ears. They are always the first to detect when things are off.

Nurses have technical skills:

1.) They have structured clinical skills evaluations before they're allowed to place lines, carry their own patients, etc. These supercised clinical evaluations are way more robust than what we have in medical school.
2.) Nurses have several standardized protocols and knowledge about different hospital hardware that most IM residents still don't know even after they graduate residency.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

I disagree. I think nurses deserve high salaries. The extent is debatable.

Nurses do all the following:

1.) Start IVs, draw blood in urgent settings. Some physicians can do this, but not all are willing/able to. Phlebotomists only come qAM and oftentimes mess up.
2.) Serve as a human in the otherwise automated medical world we have developed. We order labs and there's a glitch. Who realizes it? The nurse who then makes the right decision. We order fluids and lasix on a HF patient. Who realizes it?
3.) Communicate with the patients on our behalf. When patients are upset with their care, nurses know their patients extremely well and can communicate 90% of the care plan and know when to contact a physician.
4.) Serve as our eyes and ears. They are always the first to detect when things are off.

Nurses have technical skills:

1.) They have structured clinical skills evaluations before they're allowed to place lines, carry their own patients, etc. These supercised clinical evaluations are way more robust than what we have in medical school.
2.) Nurses have several standardized protocols and knowledge about different hospital hardware that most IM residents still don't know even after they graduate residency.

My point is: It doesnt take long to train a nurse,

 

[ACSurgeon]

- bad behavior from physicians is partly responsible for rules and oversight and admin proliferation. This includes being wasteful, abusive billing practices, and being ignorant/naive.

- there are often physicians within hospital administrations. Yes they become more admin than clinical and loose touch, but it’s not like you have people from Wall Street actually running the hospitals.

- for everyone talking about the guaranteed income: part of the problem is there is no guarantee. Once you become a cog in the wheel you loose autonomy, respect but you also lose ability to influence how much you get paid, how you get paid, how many training spots are available etc etc. I agree that our current affairs is mostly great pay, work life balance, and overall working conditions.... if it stays like this for the rest of my career I’d be happy to work for decades to come.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I disagree. I think nurses deserve high salaries. The extent is debatable.

Nurses do all the following:

1.) Start IVs, draw blood in urgent settings. Some physicians can do this, but not all are willing/able to. Phlebotomists only come qAM and oftentimes mess up.
2.) Serve as a human in the otherwise automated medical world we have developed. We order labs and there's a glitch. Who realizes it? The nurse who then makes the right decision. We order fluids and lasix on a HF patient. Who realizes it?
3.) Communicate with the patients on our behalf. When patients are upset with their care, nurses know their patients extremely well and can communicate 90% of the care plan and know when to contact a physician.
4.) Serve as our eyes and ears. They are always the first to detect when things are off.

Nurses have technical skills:

1.) They have structured clinical skills evaluations before they're allowed to place lines, carry their own patients, etc. These supercised clinical evaluations are way more robust than what we have in medical school.
2.) Nurses have several standardized protocols and knowledge about different hospital hardware that most IM residents still don't know even after they graduate residency.

There’s a lot of variability in quality of nursing education and nursing capabilities... some just execute the orders that pop up on the computer. Some actually think and identify problems. Some are skilled with lines and tubes. Some don’t know how to place an NG and always blame the veins for rolling. The good ones often go back to school and leave bedside nursing....

the debate of who gets paid how much is vast. I think the construction worker lifting heavy things and taking a risk standing at high elevations in a construction site should get paid a lot. But, we all know who makes the real money from building a house.

 

[GastriqueGraffin]

Private equity is a necessary evil that allows most private practices to exist because of how reimbursement is set up (initially by CMS). If there was no need for it then it wouldn’t exist. Plain and simple.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

Private equity is a necessary evil that allows most private practices to exist because of how reimbursement is set up (initially by CMS). If there was no need for it then it wouldn’t exist. Plain and simple.

PE is necessary as a way to ratchet down our salaries down to nothing. In the 70s and 80s and even 90s our salaries to some were an obcenity. They felt we did not deserve our pay and felt we were ripping the system off.
fast forward to today... They aint done with the fixin yet.. And most of the players(physicians) from back then are long gone. and many of them are still racing towards the door.
It is NOT a good gameplan and it will not end well..

 

[GastriqueGraffin]

PE is necessary as a way to ratchet down our salaries down to nothing. In the 70s and 80s and even 90s our salaries to some were an obcenity. They felt we did not deserve our pay and felt we were ripping the system off.
fast forward to today... They aint done with the fixin yet.. And most of the players(physicians) from back then are long gone. and many of them are still racing towards the door.
It is NOT a good gameplan and it will not end well..

Then don’t get PE. Try opening a practice today (clinic but especially ASC) with the current requirements by yourself without private investment. Try to negotiate insurance reimbursements. And you’ll be crawling to your nearest hospital to be one of their bit... I mean ‘valued employees’

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

Then don’t get PE. Try opening a practice today (clinic but especially ASC) with the current requirements by yourself without private investment. Try to negotiate insurance reimbursements. And you’ll be crawling to your nearest hospital to be one of their bit... I mean ‘valued employees’

That's exactly what i said

 

[Crayola227]

My favorite trust fund babies coming out to bash medicine in 2021 like it makes you a beggar when you finish.

Can you guys just quit already and have mommy come pay off your student loans and go back to yachting, or whatever tf it is you guys do that makes 300k salaries somehow seem completely insignificant? Why do you even hang around these forums?

Um, those people don't go into medicine and make those comments. They go into business.

 

[Crayola227]

It really isn't. Working in corporate finance including as an analyst in PE is awful. It's residency levels of stress with little to no job security. Corporate medicine is far far better

Nope nope nope. In finance you can't be pushed by your superiors to be directly responsible for an innocent vulnerable human being's death. People who underestimate the stress of this just have no idea.

 

[michaelrack]

this has been my experience as well. I was making below the national average working a full-time dead end job, and the day I got accepted I was essentially given a sure ticket to the top 1% in this country. really one of the greatest things I've ever experienced

As far as the OP, the reality is that most physicians now deserve this, at least the younger ones I know. The majority of my classmates don't want to deal with the "business" of medicine and "aren't in it for the money" so they don't desire to own their practices. Take someone else's money, they get to tell you what to do

you got a sure ticket to the top 5%, not 1% (360 k for individual, 530 k for household)

 

[PikminOC]

Are physicians in the top one percent? All of them?
$538,926

Nationwide, it takes an annual income of $538,926 to be among the top 1%. Among the approximately 1.4 million taxpayers who meet this threshold, the average annual income is about $1.7 million – about 20 times the average income of $82,535 among all taxpayers.Jul 1, 2020

Income inequality: The top 1% in the US and what they make ...​

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

you got a sure ticket to the top 5%, not 1% (360 k for individual, 530 k for household)

Fine, top 2% then.

 

[Lem0nz]

Nope nope nope. In finance you can't be pushed by your superiors to be directly responsible for an innocent vulnerable human being's death. People who underestimate the stress of this just have no idea.

You keep saying this like this is normal. If your boss is making you do things that are hurting, and even killing people, you need to quit and find another job and then report them to the medical board in that order.

I’m not going to white knight and pretend like SNFs and LTACs are well staffed and great places to receive care but staffing issues =/= your boss making you commit battery or murder.

 

[Mad Jack]

What everyone posting here including the non-Physicians non-premeds, should be concerned, and really, be quite up in arms about is the carving out of the two-tiered healthcare as we speak. Hospitals that can “afford” Physicians will have Physicians caring for its community. The rest will have Non-Physicians. No other Western country has itself in such a predicament. And those who “execute” such laws prescribe these things to others, but not to themselves. The real great danger I see is really a total collapse of a transparent and level capitalist playing field paving the way for “mob rule”, “populists” stoking the anger and finally a collapse of everything we hoped to continue building upon. Medicine... is just one example of a deeper problem. But one that affects family members, real actual lives and souls in the most fundamental basic level- to live.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- no other developed nation in the world believes that their citizens deserve the care of anything less than a fully trained physician in 99.9% of situations

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I've said it before and I'll say it again- no other developed nation in the world believes that their citizens deserve the care of anything less than a fully trained physician in 99.9% of situations

Nope: Nurses to be trained to perform surgery to ease waiting times

 

[Mad Jack]

Nope: Nurses to be trained to perform surgery to ease waiting times

Like I said, 99.9% of situations. Only the UK and Canada have experimented with NPs and both of them in extremely limited capacities

 

[Redpancreas]

My point is: It doesnt take long to train a nurse,

True. It's essentially an undergraduate degree. That said, they fill a vital role, do a lot of hard work, and deserve to be compensated fairly.

There’s a lot of variability in quality of nursing education and nursing capabilities... some just execute the orders that pop up on the computer. Some actually think and identify problems. Some are skilled with lines and tubes. Some don’t know how to place an NG and always blame the veins for rolling. The good ones often go back to school and leave bedside nursing....

the debate of who gets paid how much is vast. I think the construction worker lifting heavy things and taking a risk standing at high elevations in a construction site should get paid a lot. But, we all know who makes the real money from building a house.

I completely agree with this and can't help but chuckle at the bolded point because it's so true. At my place, a majority of the young nurses (especially in the MICU) are like navy seals. Almost all of them are honestly using their RN experience as clinical experience to go to PA/NP school. Going from the ICU to the floor can be disorienting at times because the floor RNs are definitely slower on the uptake. There are plenty of great floor nurses, but they are the exception.
---

There's really 3 types of floor nurses.
1.) Floor veteran: The one that's worked on XYZ floor for 30+ years and is so ingrained into doing things XYZ way that they're kind of difficult to work with.
2.) Pager-Happy RN: The one who's always documenting stuff and seems super stressed when you talk to them.
3.) Kind/Knowledgeable RN: Every floor has one of these RNs. They know how everything works, are extremely competent and know when to call, are always reliable. Best of all, they're not the ones to bite off an intern's head.

 

[Type2Fiber]

you got a sure ticket to the top 5%, not 1% (360 k for individual, 530 k for household)

133 posts and this statement was the one that went too far for you. But in any case, if I match the specialty I want, I'll likely get there

 

[PikminOC]

True. It's essentially an undergraduate degree. That said, they fill a vital role, do a lot of hard work, and deserve to be compensated fairly.


I completely agree with this and can't help but chuckle at the bolded point because it's so true. At my place, a majority of the young nurses (especially in the MICU) are like navy seals. Almost all of them are honestly using their RN experience as clinical experience to go to PA/NP school. Going from the ICU to the floor can be disorienting at times because the floor RNs are definitely slower on the uptake. There are plenty of great floor nurses, but they are the exception.
---

There's really 3 types of floor nurses.
1.) Floor veteran: The one that's worked on XYZ floor for 30+ years and is so ingrained into doing things XYZ way that they're kind of difficult to work with.
2.) Pager-Happy RN: The one who's always documenting stuff and seems super stressed when you talk to them.
3.) Kind/Knowledgeable RN: Every floor has one of these RNs. They know how everything works, are extremely competent and know when to call, are always reliable. Best of all, they're not the ones to bite off an intern's head.

Yeah but I'm talking about the minimal trained np who are competing with md in private practice.

 

[Aheadbyacentury]

quit and find another job and then report them to the medical board in that order.

What dream world are you living in? You cant report the abusers to the abusers!!! On top of that, they are all the same.
I know exactly what the person wrote this is speaking of and it aint pretty.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

What dream world are you living in? You cant report the abusers to the abusers!!! On top of that, they are all the same.
I know exactly what the person wrote this is speaking of and it aint pretty.

Dr. Esther Choo? Is that you?

Edit: this is a reference to OHSUs Dr. Esther Choo, an outspoken women’s advocate and racist, who advised a woman who came to her asking her how she could report sexual assault that it is “never worth it” to report.

 

[Lem0nz]

What dream world are you living in? You cant report the abusers to the abusers!!! On top of that, they are all the same.
I know exactly what the person wrote this is speaking of and it aint pretty.

I live in the world where if you insinuate battery or murder either from negligence or *actively harming someone through medicine deliberately* you blow the whistle and, you know, find a job that isn’t assaulting people. Medicine is not some giant scheme of murder for money. Ya’ll are sick for even suggesting it.

You are either wildly exaggerating in which case it isn’t funny or you aren’t in which case you’re really, really stupid for continuing to practice medicine as you are.

 

[Lawpy]

Dr. Esther Choo? Is that you?

Edit: this is a reference to OHSUs Dr. Esther Choo, an outspoken women’s advocate and racist, who advised a woman who came to her asking her how she could report sexual assault that it is “never worth it” to report.

Esther Choo is a sadistic psychopath who's worshipped by braindead woke medtwitter idiots and virtue signaling med students

 

[Redpancreas]

@sunshinefl Interested in where you disagree given your background.

 

[sunshinefl]

@sunshinefl Interested in where you disagree given your background.

Well, #1 disagree that 100K should be the salary for nurses. And if it was I would never have gone to medical school. I was/am an RN.

#2 I thought lemonz made that post until you just asked this, and he is in a surgical subspecialty and I was pissed about the comparison to internal medicine residents specifically.

 

[Redpancreas]

Well, #1 disagree that 100K should be the salary for nurses. And if it was I would never have gone to medical school. I was/am an RN.

#2 I thought lemonz made that post until you just asked this, and he is in a surgical subspecialty and I was pissed about the comparison to internal medicine residents specifically.

I know where you're headed. IM's awesome. I will say IM residents can lack a lot of practical information that advances patient care on the wards from my experience. What do you think nurses deserve to earn?

 

[NicMouse64]

I just came here to say, as a regular SDN user who has read lots of threads, that this thread is a cesspool.