"How Private Equity Is Ruining American Health Care."

[efle]

If you care about compensation, computer science is really a great field right now. Most of my friends in college and grad school went directly to big tech companies and make 200k plus options/stocks right after graduation.

Your friends are all well into the top decile for compsci. This would be like comparing other fields to Mohs surgeons making $1MM with great lifestyle.

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[hohxil_fr]

Your friends are all well into the top decile for compsci. This would be like comparing other fields to Mohs surgeons making $1MM with great lifestyle.

I think you are right. But coming from a decent college CS program, it's actually not very difficult to get into the top decile. I think it's much easier than getting into medical school.

 

[efle]

I think you are right. But coming from a decent college CS program, it's actually not very difficult to get into the top decile. I think it's much easier than getting into medical school.

I'd say depends on the school. Going to a newer DO program and matching rads, anesthesia, etc is more accessible than getting hired into FAANG type places that have you making 200k + stock within a few years. Where you go to college warps perceptions a lot too, your options coming out of a "top 20" are very different than the local State satellite. Not everyone has wall street recruiters on campus but everyone can take BCPM 101 and study for the MCAT

 

[Steve_Zissou]

But capitalism is the best and no one can question it!

What do you propose as an alternative economic system?

 

[voodoomagic]

I think you are right. But coming from a decent college CS program, it's actually not very difficult to get into the top decile. I think it's much easier than getting into medical school.

What everyone posting here including the non-Physicians non-premeds, should be concerned, and really, be quite up in arms about is the carving out of the two-tiered healthcare as we speak. Hospitals that can “afford” Physicians will have Physicians caring for its community. The rest will have Non-Physicians. No other Western country has itself in such a predicament. And those who “execute” such laws prescribe these things to others, but not to themselves. The real great danger I see is really a total collapse of a transparent and level capitalist playing field paving the way for “mob rule”, “populists” stoking the anger and finally a collapse of everything we hoped to continue building upon. Medicine... is just one example of a deeper problem. But one that affects family members, real actual lives and souls in the most fundamental basic level- to live.

 

[PikminOC]

Sure it is cake, but it is also competitive to get into. Plenty of people who are non-military have to do something to stand out which typically requires 1-4 years of basically living on the fringe of poverty (Americorps VISTA for example) just to be able to apply to a decent government job.

I make just over 6 figures now, but I started out with 90k in debt for my electrical engineering degree and a 55k/yr salary. Our field guys work their backsides to the bone in adverse conditions, and most only make $15-25/hr outside of the union, supers make around $35/hr. How long do you want to be bending 4" rigid pipe in sub-zero or sweltering conditions for? The idea that medicine is a bad profession to get into now just seems absolutely insane to me. I feel like most of the doctors I see are driving expensive vehicles and probably do not manage their money properly. That being said, I don't think anyone is arguing that family docs/NPs/PAs are being pushed to extreme levels of patient turnover. That being said, I don't have an MBA, nor do I own/run a business, and I do not want to, so how can anyone not expect a tradeoff for getting to focus strictly on patient care versus having to do that and run a practce?

Competition? My friend is a social worker for the county government. Not hard to get into at all.

 

[PikminOC]

Mostly all of this seems to miss a few intended points. I don’t think Pay/Salary is the gripe of most people making such warnings. The loss of control, oversight over their own patient safety parameters, dual standards within sub-specialties and attendant loss of professional camaraderie and respect, caused by non-clinicians (politicians, private equity, lawyers etc etc etc) have robbed some of satisfaction. Anyone who suggests that Physicians are underpaid have little idea of poverty. To suggest that Physicians are treated differently (even pay) is a more veritable argument. To minimize the “value” of what Physicians do, thereby ultimately affecting the quality of care and training for generations to come, that’s the greater problem of Medicine- which has turned it into a for-profit venture like never before.

Private Equity does not add value to Clinical care. While those types are out on team-building exercises listening to TED talks, they are stealing from Physicians (and Patients) engaged in the trenches grunting away.

The question to ask really is why take a almost half a million dollar loan for education while the lenders make money off you on the front end, and try to rip you off on the tail end too by saying you add little “value” as a Physician. Private equity, excessive Admin, Pharma, Health Insurance add to the costs and steal from everyone. Physicians though while we make a decent income are simply constantly targeted. The risk is just an erosion in quality of education, training and standards as we race to a lower level.. in the name of corporate profit and what’s become a total hypocrisy- the foundations of society. Problem is way beyond Medicine.. the Sociopaths are ruling. And we’re asking them to change. By logic, they won’t and the trajectory won’t- so choose carefully and if Medical School- choose your specialty based on these factors and your likes and dislikes. Make a balanced and informed decision.. which may include not going into Medicine.

That’s the undercurrent of the situation.. NOT “I wouldn’t go into Medicine in 2021”...

I think that's exactly why that poster is saying not to go into med. Also I think the mid-level proliferation is another reason.

 

[PikminOC]

If you care about compensation, computer science is really a great field right now. Most of my friends in college and grad school went directly to big tech companies and make 200k plus options/stocks right after graduation.

There are also coding boot camps some people go to that are difficult for five months or so but then have jobs waiting if they can hack it.

 

[PikminOC]

What everyone posting here including the non-Physicians non-premeds, should be concerned, and really, be quite up in arms about is the carving out of the two-tiered healthcare as we speak. Hospitals that can “afford” Physicians will have Physicians caring for its community. The rest will have Non-Physicians. No other Western country has itself in such a predicament. And those who “execute” such laws prescribe these things to others, but not to themselves. The real great danger I see is really a total collapse of a transparent and level capitalist playing field paving the way for “mob rule”, “populists” stoking the anger and finally a collapse of everything we hoped to continue building upon. Medicine... is just one example of a deeper problem. But one that affects family members, real actual lives and souls in the most fundamental basic level- to live.

It's not about afford. It's about having good margins for admin compensation. It will eventually get to the point where they only want the supervising doc and multiple mid-level like in gas

 

[Steve_Zissou]

There are also coding boot camps some people go to that are difficult for five months or so but then have jobs waiting if they can hack it.

Lol I remember looking at these when I wasn't sure if I was going to get accepted to med school. Real glad I got accepted and didn't have to jump into that rat race, because even though I am certain I would have done well, it feels like way more competition than what I am currently feeling for residency.

 

[PikminOC]

Lol I remember looking at these when I wasn't sure if I was going to get accepted to med school. Real glad I got accepted and didn't have to jump into that rat race, because even though I am certain I would have done well, it feels like way more competition than what I am currently feeling for residency.

I remember med school being very competitive and all the step and nbme exams. People failed out of med school. Had to prove yourself at every step with very smart and driven people.
And coding boot camp is only five months....

 

[hohxil_fr]

I remember med school being very competitive and all the step and nbme exams. People failed out of med school. Had to prove yourself at every step with very smart and driven people.
And coding boot camp is only five months....

I know some coding bootcamps are also tuition free. You pay until you get your first job, and they charge like 10% of you total compensation.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I remember med school being very competitive and all the step and nbme exams. People failed out of med school. Had to prove yourself at every step with very smart and driven people.
And coding boot camp is only five months....

Eh, few people have failed out at my school, as in very few. Almost all students, except a very small percentage, are essentially guaranteed 6 figure jobs, likely above $200,000. Meanwhile, coding is a big competition with significantly more competitors for fewer jobs paying that well. Lower barrier to entry, but higher barrier for physician level incomes.

 

[hohxil_fr]

If one spend months on LeetCode, they will nail the FAANG job interviews. Much much easier than you might think.

 

[whataschool_classof24]

But capitalism is the best and no one can question it!

It is the best, its not perfect but it is the best. Medicine would not be what it is and physicians would not be well off here in the usa without our capitalist system. I think medicine is great, but I would not put myself through the schooling, debt, and insane hours of training to make what docs in the uk or western europe make. And this is why you see docs from those countries trying to flee and work in the us

 

[PikminOC]

Eh, few people have failed out at my school, as in very few. Almost all students, except a very small percentage, are essentially guaranteed 6 figure jobs, likely above $200,000. Meanwhile, coding is a big competition with significantly more competitors for fewer jobs paying that well. Lower barrier to entry, but higher barrier for physician level incomes.

And the level of responsibility is much higher in medicine. You get sued in coding for death? The few who failed out of med school were high achievers. They had taken tons in loans.

 

[efle]

If one spend months on LeetCode, they will nail the FAANG job interviews. Much much easier than you might think.

Getting the interview is the biggest filter though, everyone who codes wants to be in the same handful of companies

 

[Steve_Zissou]

And the level of responsibility is much higher in medicine. You get sued in coding for death? The few who failed out of med school were high achievers. They had taken tons in loans.

I mean, we could go tit for tat here, but once you’ve gotten into med school, it’s not a bad place to be compared to the general workforce.

 

[PikminOC]

I mean, we could go tit for tat here, but once you’ve gotten into med school, it’s not a bad place to be compared to the general workforce.

I dont think so. Med school is difficult and you are competing with a group of highly competitive people. Then you are competing with them and all the steps. Med school is not easy. Then you are not earning money. Not saving for retirement. Then 3-7 years of residency.
I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you care about compensation, computer science is really a great field right now. Most of my friends in college and grad school went directly to big tech companies and make 200k plus options/stocks right after graduation.

Out of a highly ranked school, sure that'll happen. Most in computer science earn far less

 

[Lawpy]

It is the best, its not perfect but it is the best. Medicine would not be what it is and physicians would not be well off here in the usa without our capitalist system. I think medicine is great, but I would not put myself through the schooling, debt, and insane hours of training to make what docs in the uk or western europe make. And this is why you see docs from those countries trying to flee and work in the us

Capitalism is what's killing specialties and causing doctors to be unemployed

 

[Lem0nz]

Mostly all of this seems to miss a few intended points. I don’t think Pay/Salary is the gripe of most people making such warnings. The loss of control, oversight over their own patient safety parameters, dual standards within sub-specialties and attendant loss of professional camaraderie and respect, caused by non-clinicians (politicians, private equity, lawyers etc etc etc) have robbed some of satisfaction. Anyone who suggests that Physicians are underpaid have little idea of poverty. To suggest that Physicians are treated differently (even pay) is a more veritable argument. To minimize the “value” of what Physicians do, thereby ultimately affecting the quality of care and training for generations to come, that’s the greater problem of Medicine- which has turned it into a for-profit venture like never before.

Private Equity does not add value to Clinical care. While those types are out on team-building exercises listening to TED talks, they are stealing from Physicians (and Patients) engaged in the trenches grunting away.

The question to ask really is why take a almost half a million dollar loan for education while the lenders make money off you on the front end, and try to rip you off on the tail end too by saying you add little “value” as a Physician. Private equity, excessive Admin, Pharma, Health Insurance add to the costs and steal from everyone. Physicians though while we make a decent income are simply constantly targeted. The risk is just an erosion in quality of education, training and standards as we race to a lower level.. in the name of corporate profit and what’s become a total hypocrisy- the foundations of society. Problem is way beyond Medicine.. the Sociopaths are ruling. And we’re asking them to change. By logic, they won’t and the trajectory won’t- so choose carefully and if Medical School- choose your specialty based on these factors and your likes and dislikes. Make a balanced and informed decision.. which may include not going into Medicine.

That’s the undercurrent of the situation.. NOT “I wouldn’t go into Medicine in 2021”...

This is an extremely well thought out reply and much better worded than OP and some of the other kids who came after saying “waaahhh medicine is horrible midlevels don’t choose medicine”.

That said.

To suggest you will have any of the things you’re talking about physicians losing in literally any other career, even the 1% top echelon: control, a sense of autonomy, a sense of self, a sense of value, a sense of purpose, is utterly laughable. Having acknowledged that salaries for physicians are still fantastic and will remain fantastic and to suggest otherwise is to be very ignorant (thank you), all of those other elements you listed are exponentially worse out of medicine in corporate America. Law, engineering, Comp Sci, take your pick. You are absolutely 1000% a replaceable widget who’s value to a company is how much we can abuse this resource before we must recycle it for a cheaper more efficient human? This does not mean all the problems the guy I quoted don’t exist: they do. But they are mild versions of SEVERE drawbacks from non medical careers that are *not* global in all jobs in medicine, even employed ones.

Is this happening in medicine to doctors now? Sort of. Is it nearly as bad as all of the other careers thrown around in this thread? Lolololol absolutely not.

tldr~ premeds and Med students reading this, you should *absolutely* go to medical school if this is your passion and you will still be well rewarded for your hard work. To suggest otherwise because medicine isn’t what it once was 10 or 20 years ago ignores so many down sides of other career choices in America.

 

[whataschool_classof24]

Capitalism is what's killing specialties and causing doctors to be unemployed

A socialized medical system would just exacerbate this. The government functions like a more disjointed and inefficient private sector. Not to mention the government is full of people who hate doctors such as Bernie Sanders and even former president Trump did not like doctors. Giving the profession to a government monopoly who has a bipartisian dislike of medicine is not good for the doctor or the patient. What is killing specialties are the expansion of residencies like rad onc and EM. Physician societies should be running studies to determine the perfect balance between supply and demand within fields. As of now policy of expansion is being run by people who are pushing there is a doc shortage when they know it is more of a misallocation problem and not a shortage

 

[Lawpy]

A socialized medical system would just exacerbate this. The government functions like a more disjointed and inefficient private sector. Not to mention the government is full of people who hate doctors such as Bernie Sanders and even former president Trump did not like doctors. Giving the profession to a government monopoly who has a bipartisian dislike of medicine is not good for the doctor or the patient. What is killing specialties are the expansion of residencies like rad onc and EM. Physician societies should be running studies to determine the perfect balance between supply and demand within fields. As of now policy of expansion is being run by people who are pushing there is a doc shortage when they know it is more of a misallocation problem and not a shortage

The government sucks because of corporate lobbying. Socialized system is not going to happen not because of efficiency issues but because US society is so rightwing that the capitalist system is fundamental to American identity.

 

[Neopolymath]

You don't really hear people that had real careers before medicine moaning about medicine, in my observations and experience as someone who has done both.

People in medicine who say "just go do business"... No, just no. Stop the convo. Say that after you have done both med school and owned a business/had a real career and we can have a different tone to the conversation and I will listen to how your experience was different than mine. Otherwise, no need.

As of now, you can be a relatively terrible student in college and go to a trash school and then be a completely mediocre med student and still reliably match into a field paying 200k. Ironically, the easiest to match fields are also the fields that give you the most control of your schedule not beholden to the hospital and let you work essentially anywhere in the country.

Go be a middle manager somewhere. Make your 90k. Maybe you make it to the big leagues in business but more than likely you arbitrarily get snubbed for a big promotion and must leave to progress in your career if possible at all.

As much as med school is trying to become a joke with no objective measures of performance, it is still arguably the most merit based system of pay scale in America. You do the minimum and you make your 200k. You don't get passed up on your big shot by asskissing Craig in outside sales which alters your career trajectory forever.

This is something a 24 year old whining about having to do Anki in the ac for 8 hours a day doesn't understand because they never dug ditches literally or proverbially.

 

[Type2Fiber]

You don't really hear people that had real careers before medicine moaning about medicine, in my observations and experience as someone who has done both.

People in medicine who say "just go do business"... No, just no. Stop the convo. Say that after you have done both med school and owned a business/had a real career and we can have a different tone to the conversation and I will listen to how your experience was different than mine. Otherwise, no need.

this has been my experience as well. I was making below the national average working a full-time dead end job, and the day I got accepted I was essentially given a sure ticket to the top 1% in this country. really one of the greatest things I've ever experienced

As far as the OP, the reality is that most physicians now deserve this, at least the younger ones I know. The majority of my classmates don't want to deal with the "business" of medicine and "aren't in it for the money" so they don't desire to own their practices. Take someone else's money, they get to tell you what to do

 

[efle]

You don't really hear people that had real careers before medicine moaning about medicine, in my observations and experience as someone who has done both.

People in medicine who say "just go do business"... No, just no. Stop the convo. Say that after you have done both med school and owned a business/had a real career and we can have a different tone to the conversation and I will listen to how your experience was different than mine. Otherwise, no need.

As of now, you can be a relatively terrible student in college and go to a trash school and then be a completely mediocre med student and still reliably match into a field paying 200k. Ironically, the easiest to match fields are also the fields that give you the most control of your schedule not beholden to the hospital and let you work essentially anywhere in the country.

Go be a middle manager somewhere. Make your 90k. Maybe you make it to the big leagues in business but more than likely you arbitrarily get snubbed for a big promotion and must leave to progress in your career if possible at all.

As much as med school is trying to become a joke with no objective measures of performance, it is still arguably the most merit based system of pay scale in America. You do the minimum and you make your 200k. You don't get passed up on your big shot by asskissing Craig in outside sales which alters your career trajectory forever.

This is something a 24 year old whining about having to do Anki in the ac for 8 hours a day doesn't understand because they never dug ditches literally or proverbially.

Bingo. I have classmates that came from big 4 consulting, wall street finance, STEM PhDs...they all applied to residency instead of going back.

 

[Lawpy]

Bingo. I have classmates that came from big 4 consulting, wall street finance, STEM PhDs...they all applied to residency instead of going back.

Ugh Wall Street finance and consulting make me want to smack my head against the wall to avoid this masochistic, soulless torture

 

[Neopolymath]

this has been my experience as well. I was making below the national average working a full-time dead end job, and the day I got accepted I was essentially given a sure ticket to the top 1% in this country. really one of the greatest things I've ever experienced

As far as the OP, the reality is that most physicians now deserve this, at least the younger ones I know. The majority of my classmates don't want to deal with the "business" of medicine and "aren't in it for the money" so they don't desire to own their practices. Take someone else's money, they get to tell you what to do

Your second paragraph is my experience as well. We are our own worst enemy and will help end our own profession...

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I dont think so. Med school is difficult and you are competing with a group of highly competitive people. Then you are competing with them and all the steps. Med school is not easy. Then you are not earning money. Not saving for retirement. Then 3-7 years of residency.
I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Sounds fair to me

 

[Neopolymath]

Bingo. I have classmates that came from big 4 consulting, wall street finance, STEM PhDs...they all applied to residency instead of going back.

I encourage anyone worried about the grass being greener to go experience death by PowerPoint a tier above med school for a few weeks lol.

 

[roller48]

You don't really hear people that had real careers before medicine moaning about medicine, in my observations and experience as someone who has done both.

People in medicine who say "just go do business"... No, just no. Stop the convo. Say that after you have done both med school and owned a business/had a real career and we can have a different tone to the conversation and I will listen to how your experience was different than mine. Otherwise, no need.

As of now, you can be a relatively terrible student in college and go to a trash school and then be a completely mediocre med student and still reliably match into a field paying 200k. Ironically, the easiest to match fields are also the fields that give you the most control of your schedule not beholden to the hospital and let you work essentially anywhere in the country.

Go be a middle manager somewhere. Make your 90k. Maybe you make it to the big leagues in business but more than likely you arbitrarily get snubbed for a big promotion and must leave to progress in your career if possible at all.

As much as med school is trying to become a joke with no objective measures of performance, it is still arguably the most merit based system of pay scale in America. You do the minimum and you make your 200k. You don't get passed up on your big shot by asskissing Craig in outside sales which alters your career trajectory forever.

This is something a 24 year old whining about having to do Anki in the ac for 8 hours a day doesn't understand because they never dug ditches literally or proverbially.

As a 24 year old planning to apply next year, you really hit the nail on the head. I’ve been scribing and doing research for the past 2 years (and most likely one more) and all I keep getting is negativity regarding medicine and its future.

Two of my cousins who just finished residency in the last 1-3 years keep telling me it’s the biggest mistake I’ll make and how they love what they do, but if given the choice to go back they wouldn’t do it again. They keep telling me how our other family members working in IB are pulling in 300k yearly with no lost opportunity costs; or comp sci with 200k + stock options.

As someone who’s been working towards this for so long, I have to say it has been really discouraging and is giving me second thoughts. I never even thought about all the ‘risks’ of mid levels, admin bloat, etc. until I kept hearing the same complaints from so many physicians and residents. Even the 3rd year resident ENT physician I scribed for said, ‘Save yourself. This **** is awful’. Like, I get it’s bad but wow I can’t believe I’ve just gotten such negative responses from the younger doctors. The 60+ ones are the complete opposite and tell me how amazing of a field it is. Just makes me worried to start now while the medical landscape is changing daily but its all I’ve ever wanted. That combined with MCAT anxiety have really ruined me.

Point being, reading your last point made me realize it can’t be THAT bad and I think I’m going to go for it.

 

[whataschool_classof24]

The government sucks because of corporate lobbying. Socialized system is not going to happen not because of efficiency issues but because US society is so rightwing that the capitalist system is fundamental to American identity.

No, governments are inherently corrupt with or without lobbying. Look at politicians banking in, whether its on insider trading, book deals, etc. I'd rather not give these people total control over my career.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Going into medicine in 2021 is the biggest career mistake you'll make in your life.

Going into emergency medicine in 2021. Fixed it for you.

 

[RRRozzi]

I’m an non-trad and just got accepted to DO. I’ve spent 20 years in hospitals as RT and then as informatics. I’ve heard so many iterations of this post throughout those years, and all I can say is do what you think will make you happy. Happy isn’t the same for everyone, some think money will make them happy, some think autonomy, some think helping people will make them happy.
For me I can say that healing people and fixing things makes me happy, and physicians have an opportunity to do that everyday. Medicine is not for everyone, and the types of reward or compensation will not be universal either, but I know if I make it all the way through and do FP, IM or Med/Psych I’ll still end up making triple what I make now.
I appreciate the perspectives, they help to give one pause and evaluate, but if you’ve got a passion for something you don’t give it up because it’s too hard or the reward isn’t good enough. Neopolymath, you should definitely do medicine if that’s your passion. All of the comments about difficulty or negativity of one type or another throughout this thread point to different passions motivating different people. Having spent years working alongside physicians has only reinforced my passion, and being a physician will only allow me to further apply myself to what I’m passionate about.
So do that and screw everyone whose passions are obviously not the same.

 

[Kuratz]

I felt much more appreciated when I was coaching my collegiate sport during gap year than as a physician. Medicine feels cold and corporate. Cant imagine things changing for the better. I would go back to making $60k as a coach “working” 40 hours a week in a heartbeat if I didn’t have the debt. It’s not about money, really. Physicians just don’t seem to be appreciated by society, imo

 

[efle]

I felt much more appreciated when I was coaching my collegiate sport during gap year than as a physician. Medicine feels cold and corporate. Cant imagine things changing for the better. I would go back to making $60k as a coach “working” 40 hours a week in a heartbeat if I didn’t have the debt. It’s not about money, really. Physicians just don’t seem to be appreciated by society, imo

Retire or cut back to part time young. You can have all the stress insulation and unlocked experiences that come with wealth, and still do what you want with your time.

 

[Lem0nz]

As a 24 year old planning to apply next year, you really hit the nail on the head. I’ve been scribing and doing research for the past 2 years (and most likely one more) and all I keep getting is negativity regarding medicine and its future.

Two of my cousins who just finished residency in the last 1-3 years keep telling me it’s the biggest mistake I’ll make and how they love what they do, but if given the choice to go back they wouldn’t do it again. They keep telling me how our other family members working in IB are pulling in 300k yearly with no lost opportunity costs; or comp sci with 200k + stock options.

As someone who’s been working towards this for so long, I have to say it has been really discouraging and is giving me second thoughts. I never even thought about all the ‘risks’ of mid levels, admin bloat, etc. until I kept hearing the same complaints from so many physicians and residents. Even the 3rd year resident ENT physician I scribed for said, ‘Save yourself. This **** is awful’. Like, I get it’s bad but wow I can’t believe I’ve just gotten such negative responses from the younger doctors. The 60+ ones are the complete opposite and tell me how amazing of a field it is. Just makes me worried to start now while the medical landscape is changing daily but its all I’ve ever wanted. That combined with MCAT anxiety have really ruined me.

Point being, reading your last point made me realize it can’t be THAT bad and I think I’m going to go for it.

It is fantastic. I made more in residency than either of my parents made until they passed 50. I took international vacations with my one week vacations in surgical residency every year. I did have a working spouse but she made WAY less than me as a teacher. I had a house. We got a dog. I made new friends. My job is freaking awesome. I’ll get PSLF. My paycheck starting next year is obscene to me. I’m currently working 40-60 hours a week at most in fellowship but have an operative log that is double what most fellows graduate with.

There are so many opportunities in medicine to do whatever you want, however you want to, and you’ll get paid extremely handsomely. You DO have to work hard for it. You DO have to make careful financial decisions, and you need to plan on how to deal with loans, and you need to make sacrifices (like I sacrificed location at every turn). But the doom and gloom is a gajillion times magnitude overhyped. The opportunities are still nearly limitless. The opportunity to do minimal work for 500k a year in any specialty in NYC for 30 hours a week is not real, but except for a handful of humans, that was bull**** anyway.

I have serious questions about the expectations of doctors my age on what life is ‘supposed to look like’.

 

[deleted1095841]

It's getting flooded with mid-levels and patients don't care about the difference. Think about kids in med school now, it will be worse for them. I'm already feeling it.
Np have started private practicing too so they are directly competing for patients

Is this also true in academic settings? Or only in private practice?

 

[Neopolymath]

I felt much more appreciated when I was coaching my collegiate sport during gap year than as a physician. Medicine feels cold and corporate. Cant imagine things changing for the better. I would go back to making $60k as a coach “working” 40 hours a week in a heartbeat if I didn’t have the debt. It’s not about money, really. Physicians just don’t seem to be appreciated by society, imo

I understand where you are coming from and everyone needs to evaluate themselves for what motivates them and burns them out IMO.

 

[Rekt]

Going into emergency medicine in 2021. Fixed it for you.

Being an EM resident, that's 100% true, but EM is just the beginning. Derm, hospitalists, and critical care are next. Very shortly.

Never think you are safe. Live frugally, save as much money as you can, pay off loans asap, then you can freely exit upon your specialities collapse.

 

[Lem0nz]

Being an EM resident, that's 100% true, but EM is just the beginning. Derm, hospitalists, and critical care are next. Very shortly.

Never think you are safe. Live frugally, save as much money as you can, pay off loans asap, then you can freely exit upon your specialities collapse.

I'm sorry but someone has to speak up against this. Your advice is fine, even good. It is. Living frugally, saving as much as you can, paying off your loans, financial freedom an independence - 100%. FANTASTIC advice, for EVERY specialty and every doctor.

But the tone of fear is just wrong man. I get that I'm saying this from not EM while you're in EM, and that the EM future is bleak. But it isn't collapsed. It is perhaps collapsing... in ten years. And medical students and pre-meds should absolutely be aware of the job market of every specialty, particular those they're interested in. We definitely need to overhaul this and do a better job at making people aware.

But the fear mongering from midlevels has been taken to an extreme. EM is a special beast that did that mostly to itself through residencies, not midlevels. And if we're being perfectly honest and a little frank, a job market that is 100% saturated is the goal. That means that salaries will go down slightly, and that rural locations and 'undesirable jobs' should in fact be jobs we are filling because we still need doctors in places that aren't major cities.

I'm not saying this to be a dick or to belittle EMs plight because the **** facing EM in the next decade is super real and super awful. But it is still a decade out (ish) and ignores that 80% of EM doctors graduating in that time will still have jobs which is quite frankly not that bad compared to other job markets. The problem with medicine is that is isn't transferable so that will be a HUGE issue that we have to address.

But let's set aside EM, because, no - other specialties are NOT in EMs position. This tone of fear and the end of the world stuff is just not real and is BS. Someone has to say it so I will. You do not have to go into medicine afraid. You SHOULD go into medicine aware.

 

[Rekt]

I'm sorry but someone has to speak up against this. Your advice is fine, even good. It is. Living frugally, saving as much as you can, paying off your loans, financial freedom an independence - 100%. FANTASTIC advice, for EVERY specialty and every doctor.

But the tone of fear is just wrong man. I get that I'm saying this from not EM while you're in EM, and that the EM future is bleak. But it isn't collapsed. It is perhaps collapsing... in ten years. And medical students and pre-meds should absolutely be aware of the job market of every specialty, particular those they're interested in. We definitely need to overhaul this and do a better job at making people aware.

But the fear mongering from midlevels has been taken to an extreme. EM is a special beast that did that mostly to itself through residencies, not midlevels. And if we're being perfectly honest and a little frank, a job market that is 100% saturated is the goal. That means that salaries will go down slightly, and that rural locations and 'undesirable jobs' should in fact be jobs we are filling because we still need doctors in places that aren't major cities.

I'm not saying this to be a dick or to belittle EMs plight because the **** facing EM in the next decade is super real and super awful. But it is still a decade out (ish) and ignores that 80% of EM doctors graduating in that time will still have jobs which is quite frankly not that bad compared to other job markets. The problem with medicine is that is isn't transferable so that will be a HUGE issue that we have to address.

But let's set aside EM, because, no - other specialties are NOT in EMs position. This tone of fear and the end of the world stuff is just not real and is BS. Someone has to say it so I will. You do not have to go into medicine afraid. You SHOULD go into medicine aware.

There's so much misinformation here I don't even know where to start.

 

[Lem0nz]

There's so much misinformation here I don't even know where to start.

You're a looney tune

Then start because I disagree with you. You're burying your head in the sand and crying instead of working to achieve something with your career.

 

[Splenda88]

Then start because I disagree with you. You're burying your head in the sand and crying instead of working to achieve something with your career.

I don't know what specialty you are in, but I would not lecture an EM resident that is actually in the job market about the job market.

 

[Lem0nz]

I don't know what specialty you are in, but I would not lecture an EM resident that is actually in the job market about the job market.

I am not. I am fighting your absolutely ridiculous thread that says "don't go into medicine because the sky is falling" and the narrative that is building around it. I specifically cited all of the reasons I think EM does not conform to this discussion. Would you like to add something useful?

 

[Splenda88]

ICU NP can not explain what PEEP is on Chris Cuomo show.

and we are losing our jobs to these people.

 

[Lem0nz]

ICU NP can not explain what PEEP is on Chris Cuomo show.

and we losing our jobs to these people.

You're probably one of those residents who thinks med students know more in 3rd year than a PA ever will in their career. Would you like me to find some med students that can't explain what PEEP is? It will take me thirty seconds.

Edit: If you can't find a job because of that NP, you probably were never going to be employed anyway. If you think every tik toc doctor, PA, or NP represents all of medicine you need to go outside.

 

[Splenda88]

@Lem0nz

Like the bean counter cares about MD/DO qualifications


She is an expert

 

[Lem0nz]

Like the bean counter cares about MD qualifications


She is an expert

No, she's a lay person who's probably on television for the first time and a little nervous. And you're using one off anecdotes to condemn an entire swath of employment that happens to pay the best in our country compared to pretty much every other profession and I reiterate that it is BS and a waste of air. Or in this case, I guess entropy to type.