How do you feel about FMGs???

[SteadyEddy]

I know that this might strike a nerve, but this has been eating away at me now for quite a while. Here's the story:
During my Ob/Gyn rotation last year, I was approached by a resident(FMG) who wanted to know if I knew anyone who had the list for programs that had gone unmatched (this was the Monday of the match mind you). She mentioned that her friend (another FMG), wanted the list to make an attempt at landing a job at one of these programas. I honestly didn't know anyone that hadn't matched so I said no. I finally caught on to what was going on later that evening (I was a third year...not giving a hoot about the match). Later on, I thought about the situation and wondered if I would've given the list to her even if I did have it. I can say that I have nothing against those that graduate from outside the US, but the thought of one of my classmates not matching because someone from outside the country landed that spot makes me feel a little easy. I know the sacrifice that we go through (time and financial), but must admit that I am ignorant to the constraints that are met in pursuing an MD outside of the US. I was just curious to know how you all felt about this situation?????

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rocker]

I feel that nobody, US med grad or foreign med grad, has a right to a residency position. A residency director should be able to select who is the best qualified and most appropriate for the position. In my opinion, I feel that the residency director should have complete 100% information about which candidates are available. Likewise, I am of the opinion that all candidates should have equal access to be able to compete for the residency position they choose.

 

[SteadyEddy]

My I ask if you are an FMG or a US grad? Thanks for your response.

I feel that nobody, US med grad or foreign med grad, has a right to a residency position. A residency director should be able to select who is the best qualified and most appropriate for the position. In my opinion, I feel that the residency director should have complete 100% information about which candidates are available. Likewise, I am of the opinion that all candidates should have equal access to be able to compete for the residency position they choose.

 

[rocker]

My I ask if you are an FMG or a US grad? Thanks for your response.

US grad. To be the best, you have to beat the best.

 

[CambieMD]

The truth of the matter is that US medical schools do not produce enough physicians to staff all of our medical institutions. This topic comes up this time every year. IMGs go to places were we don't want to go. I don't know if things have changed but none of my friends wanted to train at Cook County hospital in primary care. The bottom line is that we lack the domestic physician workforce to care for all of the patients that need to be seen.

A US medical student with "red flags" may find himself competing with FMGs.
Most programs prefer home grown docs.

CambieMD

 

[amuse]

i'm a US med school graduate, now in residency. IMGs have a lot more to prove than us to get into american residency programs. from what i've seen, they can have superior knowledge and clinical skills compared to american grads in the same program. among my cohort of residents, one of the IMGs has more medical knowledge than anyone else in the class. this IMG came straight to america after med school and was not one of those that had already finished residency in another country.

IMGs are great for american residency programs and american health care b/c they are the best and brightest of the foreign pool. but this must cause quite a brain drain on their home countries.

 

[amuse]

IMGs go to places were we don't want to go.

very true. but IMGs also comprised 19% of 2004's dermatology match while 135 US seniors who applied into derm didn't match at all. 17% of radiology's match was IMG, but 159 US seniors applying into radiology went unmatched.
i got the numbers from these 2 links:
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc/outside/spec/
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html

IMGs go both where we do and don't want to go.

 

[abu barney]

very true. but IMGs also comprised 19% of 2004's dermatology match while 135 US seniors who applied into derm didn't match at all. 17% of radiology's match was IMG, but 159 US seniors applying into radiology went unmatched.
i got the numbers from these 2 links:
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc/outside/spec/
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html

IMGs go both where we do and don't want to go.

Don't feel bitter. If an IMG got that spot, it's probably because he or she is more qualified. This is America, as many IMGs will tell you, so don't get mad, get even. Go publish an article or something, and stop wasting your time bitching about other peoples' accomplishments.

 

[roja]

Don't feel bitter. If an IMG got that spot, it's probably because he or she is more qualified. This is America, as many IMGs will tell you, so don't get mad, get even. Go publish an article or something, and stop wasting your time bitching about other peoples' accomplishments.

I am going to have to concur with this general philosophy. FMG's, like all MD's, can be great or can really stink. It has nothing to do with where they went to medical school.

They should have every opportunity we have. A PD will have the information and make the choice. Just because you 'hid' a list, doesn't mean anything. If your classmate didn't match, its not because a FMG 'stole' a spot, its because there was something in their file that kept them from matching. (bad grades, bad evals, mediocre letters).

The prevelance of FMG's=less qualified is the most inane thing I have seen. I almost choked one day in our ER when one of our Peds ED (thats Peds residency adn then 3 eyars of peds EM fellowship) was getting a surgery consult. He happened to be russian and obviously an FMG. The surgeon treated him like he was a *****. Little did he know that the attending had been a PEDIATRIC SURGEON in russia, was MUCH more qualified and had chosen when he came to the US to not be a surgeon.

 

[mountaindew2006]

I know that this might strike a nerve, but this has been eating away at me now for quite a while. Here's the story:
During my Ob/Gyn rotation last year, I was approached by a resident(FMG) who wanted to know if I knew anyone who had the list for programs that had gone unmatched (this was the Monday of the match mind you). She mentioned that her friend (another FMG), wanted the list to make an attempt at landing a job at one of these programas. I honestly didn't know anyone that hadn't matched so I said no. I finally caught on to what was going on later that evening (I was a third year...not giving a hoot about the match). Later on, I thought about the situation and wondered if I would've given the list to her even if I did have it. I can say that I have nothing against those that graduate from outside the US, but the thought of one of my classmates not matching because someone from outside the country landed that spot makes me feel a little easy. I know the sacrifice that we go through (time and financial), but must admit that I am ignorant to the constraints that are met in pursuing an MD outside of the US. I was just curious to know how you all felt about this situation?????

I agree with you! I think caribbean grads and other FMGs are just a joke! Look at these schools, you will see ads for them all over SDN and the internet. How many US med schools actually have to advertise on the internet like they do.....NONE!

FMG med schools are FOR PROFIT. IN my opinion, I think if an IMG and a US grad competed for the same spot, the US grad should get it. Irrelevant of board scores, etc, we (US GRADS) put a lot more effort in and got accepted here. Yes, some of us have slacked a little perhaps, but thats because we have been busting our butts since day one. Its ridiculous how some FMGs that I have known in high school and later in college that were completely incompetent are in some off shore diploma mill med school (i dont even like referring to them as med schools).

At any rate...my two cents

 

[fourthyearmed]

I agree with you! I think caribbean grads and other FMGs are just a joke! Look at these schools, you will see ads for them all over SDN and the internet. How many US med schools actually have to advertise on the internet like they do.....NONE!
FMG med schools are FOR PROFIT.

Remember that not all FMGs are from Caribbean schools where you go when you can't get in US schools. A lot are from European schools which are very good and they have just made the decision to move to the US. I personally feel that US citizens should have some advantages over foreign grads because it is our home country and our schools but I do not think that they are any less well trained than we are when they have attended some of the good schools elsewhere in the world. I have met many FMGs who were very smart and more competent than some of my own classmates in my opinion.
P.S. - News Flash - We all pay to go to medical school!

 

[SteadyEddy]

I won't go as far as saying that FMG's are a joke...but that earlier post that 17% of Derm spots going to FMG's is a joke...Let me clarify what I posted earlier too. I didn't hide the list from this resident. Honestly, I didn't even know the logistics about the match as I was a 3rd year then. Just thinking back on the situation retrospectively, I don't know if I would've given her the the list even if I had it. Look...all I'm saying is that I know the sacrifice that we go through to get the MD. I'm not insecure (hell, I've got interviews from some of the more competitive surgery programs). All I'm saying is that I would hate for a classmate to lose out on a spot to an FMG..."qualified" or not. If they are so "qualified", stay in your country, why not stay there and practice. American medical students are across the board the most qualified students to practice the art of Medicine in the US. It's just a fact that many of the people that I'm interviewing with won't even think of going to a program that accepts FMGs...why is that? If you look at it, the programs that tend to accept FMGs are some of the least respected programs in the nation that nobody really wants.

I agree with you! I think caribbean grads and other FMGs are just a joke! Look at these schools, you will see ads for them all over SDN and the internet. How many US med schools actually have to advertise on the internet like they do.....NONE!

FMG med schools are FOR PROFIT. IN my opinion, I think if an IMG and a US grad competed for the same spot, the US grad should get it. Irrelevant of board scores, etc, we (US GRADS) put a lot more effort in and got accepted here. Yes, some of us have slacked a little perhaps, but thats because we have been busting our butts since day one. Its ridiculous how some FMGs that I have known in high school and later in college that were completely incompetent are in some off shore diploma mill med school (i dont even like referring to them as med schools).

At any rate...my two cents

 

[SteadyEddy]

how much do you pay? I'm ignorant to this topic and eager to learn.

.
P.S. - News Flash - We all pay to go to medical school!

 

[mountaindew2006]

I won't go as far as saying that FMG's are a joke...but that earlier post that 17% of Derm spots going to FMG's is a joke...Let me clarify what I posted earlier too. I didn't hide the list from this resident. Honestly, I didn't even know the logistics about the match as I was a 3rd year then. Just thinking back on the situation retrospectively, I don't know if I would've given her the the list even if I had it. Look...all I'm saying is that I know the sacrifice that we go through to get the MD. I'm not insecure (hell, I've got interviews from some of the more competitive surgery programs). All I'm saying is that I would hate for a classmate to lose out on a spot to an FMG..."qualified" or not. If they are so "qualified", stay in your country, why not stay there and practice. American medical students are across the board the most qualified students to practice the art of Medicine in the US. It's just a fact that many of the people that I'm interviewing with won't even think of going to a program that accepts FMGs...why is that? If you look at it, the programs that tend to accept FMGs are some of the least respected programs in the nation that nobody really wants.

To talk about what the previous poster said about paying for med school....yes I realize we have to pay, but our institutions here in the US have been established since whenever for the sole purpose of medical education (not strictly business as are caribbean schools).

Secondly, I agree with steadyeddy in the fact that if these 'FMGs" were soooo good why dont they stay in their own country? Bottom line is, about 50-60 years ago, if you were born in the US and you didnt get into a med school here, you were out of luck. It kept things 'in house' and kept the image and prestige of medicine. Look at it now as its dwindling. I think a lot of it has to do with us US med grads not regulating ourselves and allowing lawyers (malpractice, etc) and these FMGs taking what is ours! sorry to be sooo dramatic but its soo darn true! Another thing is that many of these caribbean ppl talk about how their Verbal section on the mcat or whatever wasnt good enough. Well HELLO.....I think verbal is an important section! In america we speak ENGLISH, having a mastery of verbal communication skills allows us to speak clearly to our patients. Yah you could find an FMG that may be brilliant, etc but if they dont have good communication skills and/or cant speak/relate to the patient, what good will he/she be ????

Sorry to be sooo conservative, but I think it's about time that we US grads stick up for OUR profession!

 

[Apollyon]

To talk about what the previous poster said about paying for med school....yes I realize we have to pay, but our institutions here in the US have been established since whenever for the sole purpose of medical education (not strictly business as are caribbean schools).

Secondly, I agree with steadyeddy in the fact that if these 'FMGs" were soooo good why dont they stay in their own country? Bottom line is, about 50-60 years ago, if you were born in the US and you didnt get into a med school here, you were out of luck. It kept things 'in house' and kept the image and prestige of medicine. Look at it now as its dwindling. I think a lot of it has to do with us US med grads not regulating ourselves and allowing lawyers (malpractice, etc) and these FMGs taking what is ours! sorry to be sooo dramatic but its soo darn true! Another thing is that many of these caribbean ppl talk about how their Verbal section on the mcat or whatever wasnt good enough. Well HELLO.....I think verbal is an important section! In america we speak ENGLISH, having a mastery of verbal communication skills allows us to speak clearly to our patients. Yah you could find an FMG that may be brilliant, etc but if they dont have good communication skills and/or cant speak/relate to the patient, what good will he/she be ????

Sorry to be sooo conservative, but I think it's about time that we US grads stick up for OUR profession!

You write like you're 20 years old. Your opinion is worthless, as is mine. Ipso facto, by seeing FMG's in good spots, the PD's have made the call. They have more perspective - almost infinitely - than you do. Your belief that the least qualified US grad should get a spot simply by being a US grad is not supported.

 

[euromd]

To talk about what the previous poster said about paying for med school....yes I realize we have to pay, but our institutions here in the US have been established since whenever for the sole purpose of medical education (not strictly business as are caribbean schools).

Many medical schools in Europe have been producing doctors since BEFORE the US was even a country. Get off the high horse!

-S

 

[OzDDS]

Wait.. everyone is mixing the terms FMG and IMG..

Doesn't FMG mean non US citizen who is a foreing grad and an IMG a US citizen who completed med school abroad?

Do you feel a difference between them? Is it about serving US grads or US citizens?

 

[Alexs42]

Not to mention the fact that there are immigrants who score on the verbal better than the vast majority of Americans. Would you deny them residency as well? Ppl who match in Derm or Rads in the US are clearly exceptional candidates. When IMGs get some of those spots, they are usually some of the best qualified ppl on the planet. And, in case you did not know it already, there is an inherent bias in the system against IMGs, since they require far more paperwork and a money commitment on part of the program. So, quit complaining, because those that get these residencies are clearly far and above the rest.
Maybe we should evict all the highly competent IMGs "from elite" residencies, and well, why stop there? Toss out the scientists as well... And next time the US needs a Manhattan project, well, what then?

2c from Alex

 

[CambieMD]

Graduate medical education is as the name implies a form of education. We must not forget however, residents are employees. PDs are free to and should hire the employee with the best best potential for making substancial contributions to their organizations.

The true danger to our ability to make a living is over regulation by the government and declining reimbursement from insurance companies. Increased competition in the open market benefits all of us.

CambieMD

 

[hammersmith]

Wait.. everyone is mixing the terms FMG and IMG..

Doesn't FMG mean non US citizen who is a foreing grad and an IMG a US citizen who completed med school abroad?

Do you feel a difference between them? Is it about serving US grads or US citizens?

Hope I am not bringing back a dead thread. I am an FMG (or IMG) myself. I don't think the two terms are used distinctively, like you mentioned. People invariably use either of the two terms to refer to someone who did his/her medical school outside US. That said, I am not a US citizen and I came to US only because my husband decided to move to US for his work and here I am. I feel bad that all of you are piling up debt, while some of my classmates, who were US citizens, came to India because they were not good enough to secure a spot here and they bought their way into my medical school.

 

[OzDDS]

Hope I am not bringing back a dead thread. I am an FMG (or IMG) myself. I don't think the two terms are used distinctively, like you mentioned. People invariably use either of the two terms to refer to someone who did his/her medical school outside US. That said, I am not a US citizen and I came to US only because my husband decided to move to US for his work and here I am. I feel bad that all of you are piling up debt, while some of my classmates, who were US citizens, came to India because they were not good enough to secure a spot here and they bought their way into my medical school.

I hope you did not misinterperate my post. I was not making any statements myself. I was just curious to find out how others felt. Because someone made a comment about having a US med graduate's spot taken away by a foreign grad.. and I was just trying to find out if that person's feelings were based on non citizens.. or if he/she felt the same about protecting spots in US residencies for US citizens who just happend to get their education outside the US.

 

[awdc]

I agree with you! I think caribbean grads and other FMGs are just a joke! Look at these schools, you will see ads for them all over SDN and the internet. How many US med schools actually have to advertise on the internet like they do.....NONE!

FMG med schools are FOR PROFIT. IN my opinion, I think if an IMG and a US grad competed for the same spot, the US grad should get it. Irrelevant of board scores, etc, we (US GRADS) put a lot more effort in and got accepted here. Yes, some of us have slacked a little perhaps, but thats because we have been busting our butts since day one. Its ridiculous how some FMGs that I have known in high school and later in college that were completely incompetent are in some off shore diploma mill med school (i dont even like referring to them as med schools).

At any rate...my two cents

Dude, isn't the lack of oxygen up there suffocating you? Many of my classmates and myself were certainly in the range of competitiveness for U.S. med schools. Some well more than qualified than some of the U.S. med students I know. So I suggest that before you look like an idiot, you look into where each of your attendings went to school, especially if you're on the east coast. Granted the people you may have known were slackers in college and high school, it doesn't justify lumping all the carib students into that pool. I, as well as most of my friends, worked just as hard into getting a US med school as my friends who did get accepted into one.

 

[hammersmith]

I hope you did not misinterperate my post. I was not making any statements myself. I was just curious to find out how others felt. Because someone made a comment about having a US med graduate's spot taken away by a foreign grad.. and I was just trying to find out if that person's feelings were based on non citizens.. or if he/she felt the same about protecting spots in US residencies for US citizens who just happend to get their education outside the US.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my message. I was trying to answer your question about those two terms and at the same time, ended up expressing how badly I felt to see the debt that US grads incur while my classmates (some were so terrible) made it easy.

 

[Apollyon]

while some of my classmates, who were US citizens, came to India because they were not good enough to secure a spot here and they bought their way into my medical school.

What this means is either they suck, or you suck. If they bought their way in, and graduated with you, either your school is weak, or they were as strong as you are. Or do they pass failing students? Then again, even if they did, if these folks pass their steps and get residencies, then they're at least as smart as everyone else out there.

 

[roja]

What this means is either they suck, or you suck. If they bought their way in, and graduated with you, either your school is weak, or they were as strong as you are. Or do they pass failing students? Then again, even if they did, if these folks pass their steps and get residencies, then they're at least as smart as everyone else out there.

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

Look guys, some FMGs are really bad and some are really good. Some US DOs are really bad and some are really good. Some US MDs are really bad and some are really good.....get my point? It's all what you put into it. I will admit that I have seen more of the bad FMGs (IMG and carib grads both), but that has just been my obervation. You could go to the Acme School of Medicine for the Blind and Dickless, but if you have good board scores and know your stuff, no one can take that away from you. Just keep in mind that if you have a medical degree, regardless of what it is MD, DO, MBBS, MBBCh, etc. etc., you are no better than anyone else until proven otherwise. Realistically, my dog who is a mutt and licks his own privates could be a great physician - its not all that hard really. He could probably get accepted to one of the caribbean schools too - no joke....and that's the reason why they, in particular, get a bad rap. I don't judge people for going to those schools or think that they are any less of a physician, but I do think that they are DEFINITELY for profit ONLY, as are these new DO expansion schools. These are two seperate things that people easily confuse.

 

[swedcrip]

Are European out-of-medical school jobs/training as open to US graduates? That's where I think it might be unfair. Otherwise I have no problem with competing with anyone in this world.

This is a serious question cause I don't know. Are most foreign-trained non-US citizens here already before applying to residency. If so, does there acquiring a position have anything to do with staying in the country. I ask this cause I think I've heard of some law saying immigrants (without green cards) can only be hired if a US citizen/permanent resident that's qualified can't be found. If this is an issue at all, what then does "qualified" mean in regards to residency applications? Thanks.

 

[tecoboy]

Here is my two cents worth of input.............in response to those of you who are all for lining up all the IMG's/FMG's and shooting us until we are unidentifiable masses of pulp.

Some of us IMG's are Americans who for whatever reason, made mistakes earlier in our lives (perhaps we were "slackers" during college, perhaps we partied just a little too hard, perhaps we had to hold down full time jobs to make ends meet during college, perhaps we had family issues that distracted us from studying our little brains out to get straight A's). Whatever the reason, we still had a dream to become doctors, to help others in need, and to bring relief to those who suffer from an endless array of diseases.

We changed the error of our ways, matured, learned from our mistakes, etc and did sufficiently well in the medical school in a foreign land to qualify to enter residency (perhaps even did well enough on the USMLE to qualify for a good residency program).

Those of you who rag on the IMG's dont really need to waste your breath doing so. The residency selection system is already stacked against us IMG's. On the interview trail most US grads talk about applying to X number of programs and getting X-1 inerviews. We IMG's apply to 2X programs and get invited to 1/2 X interviews if we are lucky, even with top board scores mind you. Even then we have to sweat it out during Match time because we know we will be given lower positions on the rank lists that the programs send. In other words, we tend to be safety nets for programs to ensure that most of their spots will fill in the event that they cant fill them with US grads.

Just remember, many experts have predicted that there will be a shortage of doctors in the next 20 years especially in the underserved communities and regions of the country. Where do you think a large proportion of IMG's go when we finish our residency? A dysproportionate number of us go take care of Ma & Pa Smith in Middle-of-Nowhere, South Dakota or Muckwater, Mississippi. Somebody has to take care of them.

I for one am proud that I made changes in my life that have brought me to this point on verge of starting a residency. Instead of wasting your time and energy bi***ing about how the IMG's are stealing a residency position that you you wanted, why dont you divert that energy to improving yourself and the competitiveness of your application so that you dont have to worry about losing out on a residency that you want. Like one of the posts said, most program directors prefer home grown talent over the foreign educated. But if you dont take measures to meet their standard, the only one who is hurting you....................is you.

Bitterness towards the IMG's serves no purpose other than to feed upon itself in an endless cycle and promote misconceptions and misinformation.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Here is my two cents worth of input.............in response to those of you who are all for lining up all the IMG's/FMG's and shooting us until we are unidentifiable masses of pulp.

Some of us IMG's are Americans who for whatever reason, made mistakes earlier in our lives (perhaps we were "slackers" during college, perhaps we partied just a little too hard, perhaps we had to hold down full time jobs to make ends meet during college, perhaps we had family issues that distracted us from studying our little brains out to get straight A's). Whatever the reason, we still had a dream to become doctors, to help others in need, and to bring relief to those who suffer from an endless array of diseases.

We changed the error of our ways, matured, learned from our mistakes, etc and did sufficiently well in the medical school in a foreign land to qualify to enter residency (perhaps even did well enough on the USMLE to qualify for a good residency program).

Those of you who rag on the IMG's dont really need to waste your breath doing so. The residency selection system is already stacked against us IMG's. On the interview trail most US grads talk about applying to X number of programs and getting X-1 inerviews. We IMG's apply to 2X programs and get invited to 1/2 X interviews if we are lucky, even with top board scores mind you. Even then we have to sweat it out during Match time because we know we will be given lower positions on the rank lists that the programs send. In other words, we tend to be safety nets for programs to ensure that most of their spots will fill in the event that they cant fill them with US grads.

Just remember, many experts have predicted that there will be a shortage of doctors in the next 20 years especially in the underserved communities and regions of the country. Where do you think a large proportion of IMG's go when we finish our residency? A dysproportionate number of us go take care of Ma & Pa Smith in Middle-of-Nowhere, South Dakota or Muckwater, Mississippi. Somebody has to take care of them.

I for one am proud that I made changes in my life that have brought me to this point on verge of starting a residency. Instead of wasting your time and energy bi***ing about how the IMG's are stealing a residency position that you you wanted, why dont you divert that energy to improving yourself and the competitiveness of your application so that you dont have to worry about losing out on a residency that you want. Like one of the posts said, most program directors prefer home grown talent over the foreign educated. But if you dont take measures to meet their standard, the only one who is hurting you....................is you.

Bitterness towards the IMG's serves no purpose other than to feed upon itself in an endless cycle and promote misconceptions and misinformation.

Wow! Very eloquently stated tecoboy. Bravo.

 

[snithyas]

I agree with you! I think caribbean grads and other FMGs are just a joke! Look at these schools, you will see ads for them all over SDN and the internet. How many US med schools actually have to advertise on the internet like they do.....NONE!

FMG med schools are FOR PROFIT. IN my opinion, I think if an IMG and a US grad competed for the same spot, the US grad should get it. Irrelevant of board scores, etc, we (US GRADS) put a lot more effort in and got accepted here. Yes, some of us have slacked a little perhaps, but thats because we have been busting our butts since day one. Its ridiculous how some FMGs that I have known in high school and later in college that were completely incompetent are in some off shore diploma mill med school (i dont even like referring to them as med schools).

At any rate...my two cents

. HI, I just wanted to clarify that all fmg schools are not paid. 100 percent of Govt run universities and med schools are purely on merit. Those who cannot get in do join med schools which accept payment. The govt run med schools usually are affliated to huge state run hospitals which provide free treatment . (so the no of pts going to these hospitals are really enormous--the clinical experience is really wonderful). Remember insurance industries are relatively nonexistent ,so either people pay or go to govt hospitals.
The payment to private medschools are humungous--unless you are filthy rich you won't be able to make it. Also the pt population ,except for a few schools is not large or diverse.
Recently govt have insisted that these private schools allot 10 percent of the seats on the basis of marks.
So next time you meet an FMG ask him if he is from a private med school or a govt run med school. If he is from a govt school the poor lad probably worked his butt off to get into med school. But then again he may be one of the 10 percent i mentioned or may be FILTHY rich.

Also Money is not the only reason people come here. If you are a physician in my country you make tons of money and the risk of getting sued comparitively is less.

Besides money there are a number of wonderful things about USA-which if I list may sound trivial to US citizens but matter a lot to me.
Iam from India and the above mentioned stuff about medschools may be different elsewhere.

 

[NYC Girl]

I just finished a rotation at a hospital with a large proportion of FMG's - it is an academic affiliate of Columbia, my home program. There are residents and fellows who graduated from schools in India, Iran, Europe (England, Germany, etc), South America, Africa, and without a doubt, many or most of these are on par with or much better than the residents/fellows from Columbia. Obviously this is not true across the board, but as someone mentioned already, FMG's have "more to prove" in order to get spots. Many had board scores that were off the charts, etc., and their clinical acumen was outstanding as well.

Also remember that some FMG "residents" were actually attendings in their own countries, but had to re-do residency upon entering the U.S. One of my senior residents in medicine was from Iran, had been an attending for 7 years, and knew more than any attending in the hospital.

 

[roja]

I just finished a rotation at a hospital with a large proportion of FMG's - it is an academic affiliate of Columbia, my home program. There are residents and fellows who graduated from schools in India, Iran, Europe (England, Germany, etc), South America, Africa, and without a doubt, many or most of these are on par with or much better than the residents/fellows from Columbia. Obviously this is not true across the board, but as someone mentioned already, FMG's have "more to prove" in order to get spots. Many had board scores that were off the charts, etc., and their clinical acumen was outstanding as well.

Also remember that some FMG "residents" were actually attendings in their own countries, but had to re-do residency upon entering the U.S. One of my senior residents in medicine was from Iran, had been an attending for 7 years, and knew more than any attending in the hospital.

I have a sneaking suspicion I know which hospital you are referring to (as I think its the one I work at.. ) and I would have to concur.

 

[awdc]

Realistically, my dog who is a mutt and licks his own privates could be a great physician - its not all that hard really. He could probably get accepted to one of the caribbean schools too - no joke....and that's the reason why they, in particular, get a bad rap. I don't judge people for going to those schools or think that they are any less of a physician, but I do think that they are DEFINITELY for profit ONLY, as are these new DO expansion schools.

True, but one shouldn't make the assumption that for-profit and "easy to get in" means that everyone who gets in will end up with a degree. For example, Ross will take sub-par applicants and give you that chance to prove yourself. Some will shine and some won't. But they're not going to hold your hand and make sure you pass every semester if you don't have what it takes. Eventually, those who are unprepared for medical school will be dismissed whether by basis of too many failures or inability to pass step I.

 

[Doctor B.]

Bitterness towards the IMG's serves no purpose other than to feed upon itself in an endless cycle and promote misconceptions and misinformation.

Right on. As has been posted several times above, there are good and bad residents in both groups (US grads and FMGs). I want to work with intelligent, hard-working, amiable residents no matter where they trained or where they're from.

 

[leorl]

If they are so "qualified", stay in your country, why not stay there and practice. American medical students are across the board the most qualified students to practice the art of Medicine in the US. It's just a fact that many of the people that I'm interviewing with won't even think of going to a program that accepts FMGs...why is that? If you look at it, the programs that tend to accept FMGs are some of the least respected programs in the nation that nobody really wants.

I'm sorry... Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Cleveland Clinic? even other top 50 university-associated hospitals like Ohio State? Those are the least respected programs in the nation? They, among many others, accept IMGs. Research before you say something and try not to let sentiment/bias exaggerate your statements.

It's perfectly understandable to feel threatened by IMGs. Especially if they're more qualified. That's the only way an FMG will get a spot over an IMG - if their qualifications are better. Yeah, US students have to work Damn hard. *News Flash* - ALL medical students ANYWHERE have to work hard. IMGs who succeed in landing US residency HAVE WORKED THE HARDEST. Why? They have to take the USMLE steps which their schools don't cater for, thus had to spend hours outside their own lecture time to study for it. And possibly, English isn't even their native language. In order to land a good US residency, IMGs have to rock the USMLE, earning far more than the US national average. So if you're telling me that an average US grad with average USMLE scores deserves more of a place than a foreign grad who has overcome language obstacles and curriculum differences to score way higher on the USMLE and proven competent on the Step 2 CS or the CSA, then you're very nepotistic, my friend...and subconciously prejudiced.

So you want them to stay in their own country if they're so smart. Why do you think they come here? Just to take spots from US medical students? If everything was rosy at home, do you think they'd be so keen to come to the US? Could it possibly be because the US enjoys at the moment, the greatest standard of living, is the land of opportunity, yada yada yada? Do you think someone from a 2nd or 3rd world country would really want to stay at home just for the sake of staying home and lessening the "brain drain" instead of pursuing a brighter life in the US if they have the ability to do it? Just think about it.

 

[leorl]

Are European out-of-medical school jobs/training as open to US graduates? That's where I think it might be unfair. Otherwise I have no problem with competing with anyone in this world.

This is a serious question cause I don't know. Are most foreign-trained non-US citizens here already before applying to residency. If so, does there acquiring a position have anything to do with staying in the country. I ask this cause I think I've heard of some law saying immigrants (without green cards) can only be hired if a US citizen/permanent resident that's qualified can't be found. If this is an issue at all, what then does "qualified" mean in regards to residency applications? Thanks.

I'm not quite sure I understand your questions correctly. I'm not sure if European residencies are open to US graduates, for instance. But I know a lot of times, if the US student trained in that country, then they would have a fair chance of earning an internship/residency in that country. But to answer your question, probably no - Europe may be more closed than we are, but to some extent I think this is because their countries are a lot smaller.

International graduates from foreign countries usually have graduated from foreign schools and have not stayed in the US prior to their residency. What happens is that in order to complete residency in the US, they have to get a J1 or an H1B working visa. If they want to stay in the US, they'd have to go through the lottery system for a green card or whatever else is the normal way of being naturalized. Some IMGs come to the US for residency because it speeds up their career (i.e. they'll become a specialist faster and get training in the most advanced equipment, etc.), and then they'll return home.

To my knowledge, there is no difference between FMG and IMG. FMG is a more dated term, which was changed to IMG to be more politically correct. US citizens are called USIMGs, to separate them out from IMGs but it really doesn't make a difference.

 

[presidiomd]

Dude, isn't the lack of oxygen up there suffocating you? Many of my classmates and myself were certainly in the range of competitiveness for U.S. med schools. Some well morundefinede than qualified than some of the U.S. med students I know. So I suggest that before you look like an idiot, you look into where each of your attendings went to school, especially if you're on the east coast. Granted the people you may have known were slackers in college and high school, it doesn't justify lumping all the carib students into that pool. I, as well as most of my friends, worked just as hard into getting a US med school as my friends who did get accepted into one.

Lets see here just for a moment. Why do you think there are no Carribean med grads occupying the best residency positions? It's because you were to stupid to get into a US med school, and thus, too stupid to be accepted. Furthermore, while you have spent all your time studying, out of fear, for the Step exams, i was drinking beer and having relations with my girlfriend. As a result, I did just OK on my board exams, and will be accepted into a residency positions that you, and your top board scores, will not. Face it! its the way it works. If you don't like it, maybe you should have done a little better in college. And by the way, all the attendings I know are graduates of US med schools.

 

[prominence]

It's because you were to stupid to get into a US med school, and thus, too stupid to be accepted.

Its a joke that the SDN moderators refuse to take a "zero policy" against this kind of disrespectful BS against FMGs, but defends DOs until there is no tomorrow. i guess SDN doesn't view all MDs, DOs, and FMGs as equals either.

To ALL the FMG bashers, like this idiot:

"GO **** YOURSELF, ***HOLE!!!"

 

[Winged Scapula]

Its a joke that the SDN moderators refuse to take a "zero policy" against this kind of disrespectful BS against FMGs, but defends DOs until there is no tomorrow. i guess SDN doesn't view all MDs, DOs, and FMGs as equals either.

To ALL the FMG bashers, like this idiot:

"GO **** YOURSELF, ***HOLE!!!"

Please do not believe that we have a "zero policy" which applies to all groups except IMGs/FMGs. As a matter of fact, as an IMG myself I am especially sensitive to it but try not to let that color my reactions as Moderator. The truth is I haven't not had a chance to check this forum or its threads in depth for awhile.

I agree the post above is offensive and not in keeping with SDN policy. The poster will be reprimanded.

 

[Shock]

Over the last few years I have noticed a major difference between foreign students and US students who post on forums such as this.

I have yet to meet a foreign student who sounds so arrogant as some US students do when they comment on these forums. Perhaps, having gone to an offshore school has humbled many of us and we have become better human beings as a result. That pre-med mentality, I believe very rarely stays with IMGs whereas, some US students never seem to lose this mentality.

 

[PairODocs]

As a fourth year applying to residency, I can say I look at the number of DOs and FMGs at a program. The more FMGs and DOs, the more I consider that the program may not be as strong or competitive as I would like. This is not the only thing I look at, but it is absolutely a consideration. To think I am the only one in the country doing this would be ridiculous.

At my med school one of the programs did not fill last year and they sent out a survey to people who had interviewed there. Those who responded said the number of DOs and FMGs in the program was a negative in their decision making process. For that reason, the program is making a concerted effort to recruit American grads with MDs. Most of my friends look at this as well, as do many American grads. It is just a fact.

It is also a fact that the Columbias and Dukies and Hopkins geeks with similar boards as mine are getting more interviews just because of the big name schools. Am I angry about it? Not really, but I know for a fact it is true. Again, "tier" of school is also a factor that is looked at to determine quality of applicant. Right or wrong, it happens.

One program director I know prints out the applications of every American grad who applies- this year, approx 250. The same number of FMGs applied, and only a handful with super-stellar numbers ever got printed out and put on his desk. The rest were rejected without any consideration. There are filters on ERAs for this very reason. Whether they were even offered interviews, I do not know. There are a couple of FMGs in the residency, and I can honestly say many of the attendings give them a hard time. Some of these residents are my good friends. I know for a fact they have fared worse in finding fellowships because-even though the residency is strong- the bias continues.

I rotated with some 4th years from a Caribbean school last year, and they were very well aware of the bias and had to make up for it by applying to larger numbers of programs and programs with records of taking FMGs.

That is just the way it is, right or wrong. Would I prefer to match at a program with all American MDs? Yes, I would, and I'm certainly not alone.

 

[Adam_K]

As a fourth year applying to residency, I can say I look at the number of DOs and FMGs at a program. The more FMGs and DOs, the more I consider that the program may not be as strong or competitive as I would like. This is not the only thing I look at, but it is absolutely a consideration. To think I am the only one in the country doing this would be ridiculous.

At my med school one of the programs did not fill last year and they sent out a survey to people who had interviewed there. Those who responded said the number of DOs and FMGs in the program was a negative in their decision making process. For that reason, the program is making a concerted effort to recruit American grads with MDs. Most of my friends look at this as well, as do many American grads. It is just a fact.

It is also a fact that the Columbias and Dukies and Hopkins geeks with similar boards as mine are getting more interviews just because of the big name schools. Am I angry about it? Not really, but I know for a fact it is true. Again, "tier" of school is also a factor that is looked at to determine quality of applicant. Right or wrong, it happens.

One program director I know prints out the applications of every American grad who applies- this year, approx 250. The same number of FMGs applied, and only a handful with super-stellar numbers ever got printed out and put on his desk. The rest were rejected without any consideration. There are filters on ERAs for this very reason. Whether they were even offered interviews, I do not know. There are a couple of FMGs in the residency, and I can honestly say many of the attendings give them a hard time. Some of these residents are my good friends. I know for a fact they have fared worse in finding fellowships because-even though the residency is strong- the bias continues.

I rotated with some 4th years from a Caribbean school last year, and they were very well aware of the bias and had to make up for it by applying to larger numbers of programs and programs with records of taking FMGs.

That is just the way it is, right or wrong. Would I prefer to match at a program with all American MDs? Yes, I would, and I'm certainly not alone.

Why? Because a couple of your fellow residents might have a skin color a shade or more darker than yours? Or speak English a little less fluently? Or went abroad and returned?

I don't judge physicians by the name of the medical school that appears on their diploma.

I think it takes a lot more than the name of a "good" school to prove that the physician is dedicated to their patients.

 

[AMG_MD]

Why? Because a couple of your fellow residents might have a skin color a shade or more darker than yours? Or speak English a little less fluently? Or went abroad and returned?

I don't judge physicians by the name of the medical school that appears on their diploma.

I think it takes a lot more than the name of a "good" school to prove that the physician is dedicated to their patients.

Here we go again.... yet another FMG with a chip on his shoulder. For God's sake, don't spend all ths energy in trying to defend your skill set - you're not going to get believed anyway. I've seen some of the quote unquote foreign medical schools, and most americans would be shocked speechless.

does a school matter? of course! don't kid yourself

 

[lodger]

while it may suck for FMG, I will not apply to a residency program that are mostly FMG. The one exception to this rule is for preliminary programs. I have noticed that for many programs around NYC have all FMG for categorical medicine programs and all AMG for preliminary. I take this this into account when it comes to ranking programs and will rank these programs lower. Hey the world is not fair live with it.

 

[Adam_K]

Here we go again.... yet another FMG with a chip on his shoulder. For God's sake, don't spend all ths energy in trying to defend your skill set - you're not going to get believed anyway. I've seen some of the quote unquote foreign medical schools, and most americans would be shocked speechless.

does a school matter? of course! don't kid yourself

Actually, it seems that you're the one with a chip on your shoulder. Looking at your posts on the IMG forum, you seem to be trolling for a fight with FMGs.

Why is it that you are so insecure?

 

[Adam_K]

while it may suck for FMG, I will not apply to a residency program that are mostly FMG. The one exception to this rule is for preliminary programs. I have noticed that for many programs around NYC have all FMG for categorical medicine programs and all AMG for preliminary. I take this this into account when it comes to ranking programs and will rank these programs lower. Hey the world is not fair live with it.

What will you do once you obtain your residency? Refuse to work with FMG attendings?

 

[carve em up]

I personally love FMGs!! They have done an excellent job of filling out empty Family Med spots at my school, and then consistently copying my pt notes while on their off-service rotations. They're also good for crazy laughs, like the one FMG who was on my OB rotation who 'forgot' to put on gloves for a delivery, then the next day volunteered to first assist on a c-section of twins without ever having seen a c-section. Then there was the one on my cardiology rotation who on the first night of call asked, 'what are cardiac enzymes?' These guys are hilarious!!!

 

[tangents]

You sound like you will make an excellent and compassionate MD someday with all of your empathy and understanding. I cannot believe this is even a discussion, clearly all of us should know at this point that where you go to school just means that you got in there, not much more. There are all types out there in all schools. I go to a great US school, and have met some pretty unimpressive people as well as superstars.

If you are labelling people as "they" rather than individuals, I worry. I find your post offensive.

 

[toxin]

It's because you were to stupid to get into a US med school, and thus, too stupid to be accepted.

I just love that statement

 

[MasterintuBater]

I think many american medical graduate elitists are lucky that their residency positions are somewhat protected by NRMP, etc. from the business market that rules the rest of the civilized world. In business, the best candidates get the opportunities, and money talks. In the REAL world, an FMG who is smarter than you and would work for less money would get your job from you in a heartbeat. An FMG who isn't on the ball would not. the real business market doesn't care about the color of your skin. Medicine can be very sheltering to it's american members. In other circumstances, however, medicine can be as cold and cruel as the finance industry. Just realize that you are lucky to be protected, in a sense, from those who would have your job under realistic market conditions, which know no ethnic or geographical boundaries.
p.s. I'm an american grad.