How do you determine a good vs bad surgeon?

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As a patient, how would you determine if your surgeon is technically skilled and trustworthy? What would you guys as experts rely on if it’s someone you haven’t ever scrubbed with? Are like complication and success rates readily available? Can’t a surgeon just exaggerate if asked by a patient? Interested in your insights.

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As a patient, how would you determine if your surgeon is technically skilled and trustworthy? What would you guys as experts rely on if it’s someone you haven’t ever scrubbed with? Are like complication and success rates readily available? Can’t a surgeon just exaggerate if asked by a patient? Interested in your insights.
I think there are two components to being a good surgeon: technical skill and good judgment. Lots have one but not the other. I would rely on professional word of mouth and ask “would you let Dr SoandSo operate on you or your family?” To me, that is the true litmus test.

Complication rates can be misleading because a doctor that operates on only complex patients is going to have higher complication rates as compared to private practice doc who cherry picks the easy cases and refers everything else to a tertiary center.
 
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I think there are two components to being a good surgeon: technical skill and good judgment. Lots have one but not the other. I would rely on professional word of mouth and ask “would you let Dr SoandSo operate on you or your family?” To me, that is the true litmus test.

Complication rates can be misleading because a doctor that operates on only complex patients is going to have higher complication rates as compared to private practice doc who cherry picks the easy cases and refers everything else to a tertiary center.

That is a poor test, healthcare is a delicate field, alliances and rivalries, your answers would vary wildly depending who you ask.

In my opinion, a good gold standard for technical skills and operator judgment would be scrubbing in and seeing the work close up. Alas that is not feasible. A video of surgery would be a close second, not only laparoscopic camera or close up, but the whole surgical field, there would be need for multiple videos of mundane surgeries, no cuts in video, and random samples, very difficult to do.
Complication rates graded by complexity and risk are very good evaluations, despite some people arguing against it. But these studies are often done poorly with no sense whatsoever of impartiality.
 
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Thank you both for your insights. You bring up interesting points which I think illustrates the difficulty in selecting a surgeon, particularly for a patient unaware of the nuances of the field. At the end of the day, how would you determine which surgeon to fix, for example, your inguinal hernia? Since as a patient you won’t have access to surgical video and as mentioned above asking others could be misleading. Would you just base it on their bedside manner and how comfortable you feel with them? It seems a difficult decision.
 
Thank you both for your insights. You bring up interesting points which I think illustrates the difficulty in selecting a surgeon, particularly for a patient unaware of the nuances of the field. At the end of the day, how would you determine which surgeon to fix, for example, your inguinal hernia? Since as a patient you won’t have access to surgical video and as mentioned above asking others could be misleading. Would you just base it on their bedside manner and how comfortable you feel with them? It seems a difficult decision.

Seeing video wouldn’t help anyone but another surgeon anyway. The lay public and even non surgical doctors have very little idea of what good surgical technique looks like. All they see is the skin closure.

I agree with @Jolie South. It somewhat depends on the type of Surgery one is having but in general, the highest compliment a surgeon can give another is to say they’d let that person operate on themselves or their family. Non surgeon docs may not know what goes on in the OR but If they have referred that patient to that surgeon before they will know about bedside manner and followup. This is the best you can do really.
 
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Yea unfortunately there’s isn’t a good way for a physician to find a good surgeon... the only people who know how good or bad a surgeon is are people that scrub with that person and see how they perform and how they deal with surprises and complications. Some scrub techs might have an idea. Most circulating nurses don’t. Senior residents and other surgeons are really the only people who know how good a surgeon is. So, if you know residents in a certain field, a chief resident can’t tell you which faculty to send a patient to. Otherwise, surgeons who are part of M&M might have an idea of how other surgeons perform, but that can easily be skewed. Finally, rank or popularity don’t correlate. I’ve seen many division chiefs that i’d never send a patient to.

Overall, most people blindly trust their doctor. Sometimes you have no choice. It’s what we did both times in selecting an OB when my wife was pregnant.
 
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Well, what are we defining as a good surgeon, to begin with? The obvious answer is the guy who will do your surgery without any complications, but that guy doesn't exist. So then you're looking for the guy who is most likely to do your surgery without any complications. But, what if he's an @$$hole? So then you have a complication, and he isn't really interested in holding your hand while you recover. That'd probably make him a bad surgeon. So now you're looking for a guy who can do your surgery who is unlikely to have a complication and who has a good bedside manner. And for some patients they also want someone who really fluffs their ego. Some people want a guy who spends a lot of time with them, other people don't care about that at all. Some people think a good surgeon only uses the most advanced techniques, and other people would prefer that he do whatever the gold standard is. Do you know how often I have patients ask me if I do a laser tonsillectomy? Happens all of the time, yet there's no real, significant, proven benefit to doing it that way.

I agree that you can't always (or even usually) trust it when a non-surgeon recommends a surgeon. The only evidence that they usually have is that they've sent a lot of people to said surgeon, and they come back in better shape. But that doesn't even cover all the bases I mentioned above. I also agree that the best bet would be to have another, competent surgeon who has seen your surgeon in action tell you that he thinks the guy is a good surgeon. But, you've got to know the guy giving the recommendation actually knows what he's talking about, don't you? And if he's working with your surgeon, he either knows the guy or he's his partner, so of course he's going to recommend him. I'd say it's much more accurate if a surgeon who has worked with your surgeon tells you that your surgeon ISN'T a good surgeon. That's probably something you should take to the bank, unless there's reason to suspect defamation.

My thought: look for a guy who doesn't have a bad reputation, who does the procedure you're going to have on a semi-regular basis (if possible), and who has complication rates within the acceptable average, and who you get along with personally. Assuming you can find his complications rates, and assuming you know what the average is. If you're a super-high risk patient, you're going to find your way to the only guy who will touch you either way, so it's a moot point.

What I also see a lot is that everyone wants to go to Mayo (or maybe not since they're ruthlessly kidnapping children now) or other (insert big name facility). And here's the thing about that:
- If you need an experimental neurosurgery, go to the guy who is doing those experiments.
- If you need a high risk, complex surgery that is otherwise established for your situation as a standard of care: go to a tertiary care center where they do the most of those cases
- If you need an appendectomy/inguinal hernia, etc.: go to the guy down the road who does hernias so that he can pay his mortgage and feed his kids. He's doing a ton of them. As long as he meets the criteria above (you get along with him, no bad rep, and his complication rates are wnl), then he's your guy. You don't need to dig up the guy who invented the hernia repair to have yours done. If you go to Mayo, the guy doing experimental surgeries isn't going to be the guy doing your hernia. Probably a resident. Maybe with very minimal supervision. And there's NOTHING wrong with that (it's kind of commendable), but only if you're going there because you want to enhance resident training. This idea that your bread-and-butter case is going to be done in a far superior fashion because you paid $5,000 to take a trip to Minnesota to have it done is just misguided.


From the perspective of someone in the medical field, I think there are other guiding factors in choosing a good surgeon (most of these aren't extremely relevant to the lay person):

One of my mentors always said “It’s better to be a good surgeon than it is a fast surgeon, but it’s even better to be a good, fast surgeon.”

In other words, yes you have to concentrate on doing things correctly, but once you’re there, why not try to be better than that? A good surgeon is always trying to improve. That includes staying up-to-date on treatments. So sometimes going to the ancient surgeon is a good thing. If he's keeping up on his research and he's not having the jitters, then there's a lot of experience to draw from there. BUT, sometimes it's not a good thing at all because he's doing things the way he always has even though it might not really be the standard of care anymore. This is especially noticeable when you're way out in the communities.

My mentor also said “the enemy of good isn’t great, its bad.”

Same general idea, but also: you can do a great job 10 times and make a bad impression once and be thought of as a bad surgeon. At least for a while and by certain people. So records do matter, but as mentioned above the guy who does routine procedures on the sickest patients will often have a higher complication rate than The guy who does complicated cases on routine patients. So you can’t take that data out of context, like many insurers try to do. Those complication rates can be stratified to an extent, but I don't buy the idea that even those numbers are accurate. There are a lot of intangibles that just don't show up. For example, I have one clinic in an area with a lot of GD hippies. That's just the patient population. They're not unhealthy, per say, but they are very non-compliant. I'll send them home with a medication, and they'll use it one time and then stop because they feel like it effected their aura or some BS. Well, turns out they do the same thing after surgery. And I try to adjust for that, but ultimately you're sometimes forced to treat them, and I really don't see a way that you can accurately identify non-compliance when stratifying risk in a research study. (and that's just one example).
 
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I really appreciate all the insights especially given how busy you all are. I guess the takeaway is that for a routine procedure (hernia) it really doesn’t matter all that much given the complication rates are reasonable. Only question would be do patients have access to those or are they hidden by the physician or hospital administrators in some secret vault?
 
I really appreciate all the insights especially given how busy you all are. I guess the takeaway is that for a routine procedure (hernia) it really doesn’t matter all that much given the complication rates are reasonable. Only question would be do patients have access to those or are they hidden by the physician or hospital administrators in some secret vault?

At this time, this data is not published. Even if it were public, it would be difficult to interpret; as stated earlier, comparing the complication rates of 2 surgeons for similar procedures won’t tell the whole story. You have to consider this data in light of a patient population’s complexity and risk factors, which can be profoundly different.
 
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If they won't stfu about the patient not being relaxed enough they are a crap surgeon
 
If they won't stfu about the patient not being relaxed enough they are a crap surgeon
Yeah, I used to be that guy. I had a patient sit upright on the operating table when I was doing an ossicular chain reconstruction. I felt like such a jerk for saying anything.
 
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There are several categories of bad surgeons IMO:
1. Bad technical skills. Complications include recurrences, enterotomies, leaks, bleeds, etc. at higher rates.
2. Bad judgment. Poor patient selection, possibly combined with overestimation of skill (ego). Complications include infections, medical complications set off by surgery, healing problems, death, etc. because they didn't know when NOT to operate. Judgment is a lot harder, if not impossible, to fix and hardest for people in a different field to recognize as the underlying problem.
corollary: bad intraop judgment. Does great until the unexpected happens, after which things derail due to not knowing what to do next or simply panicking. Unable to think clearly on the fly. Needs someone to come help bail them out, but may not recognize they need help or ever ask for it.
3. The jerk. Bad bedside manner. Correlates to patients not having realistic expectations as to outcomes, risks, etc. or possibly no understanding of what is recommended and why, or if there are other options. Complications, while quite possibly managed appropriately, are not explained leading to patient mistrust and frustration.
4. The old dog. Won't learn new tricks or refer patients to those who do, and puts patients through maximally invasive surgery when other options would have given equivalent or better outcomes. Insists that what they learned in residency "back in the day" is still standard of care.

Really, I want someone who is the opposite of the above working on me. Which I guess means someone with good judgment and technical skills, able to troubleshoot, conscientious, who cares about outcomes while following current treatment guidelines and evolving their surgical techniques over time.
 
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There are several categories of bad surgeons IMO:
1. Bad technical skills. Complications include recurrences, enterotomies, leaks, bleeds, etc. at higher rates.
2. Bad judgment. Poor patient selection, possibly combined with overestimation of skill (ego). Complications include infections, medical complications set off by surgery, healing problems, death, etc. because they didn't know when NOT to operate. Judgment is a lot harder, if not impossible, to fix and hardest for people in a different field to recognize as the underlying problem.
corollary: bad intraop judgment. Does great until the unexpected happens, after which things derail due to not knowing what to do next or simply panicking. Unable to think clearly on the fly. Needs someone to come help bail them out, but may not recognize they need help or ever ask for it.
3. The jerk. Bad bedside manner. Correlates to patients not having realistic expectations as to outcomes, risks, etc. or possibly no understanding of what is recommended and why, or if there are other options. Complications, while quite possibly managed appropriately, are not explained leading to patient mistrust and frustration.
4. The old dog. Won't learn new tricks or refer patients to those who do, and puts patients through maximally invasive surgery when other options would have given equivalent or better outcomes. Insists that what they learned in residency "back in the day" is still standard of care.

Really, I want someone who is the opposite of the above working on me. Which I guess means someone with good judgment and technical skills, able to troubleshoot, conscientious, who cares about outcomes while following current treatment guidelines and evolving their surgical techniques over time.

So well said, and I agree with all of it!


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I think it's a really hard question, lots of good advice above, but honestly there isnt a good answer. Even asking their cosurgeons is probably not all that great, how often do attending surgeons really operate with each other, and is that minimal experience enough to outweigh the biases(both positive and negative) likely to exist in any professional environment?

The classic answer is to ask the scrub nurses, which perhaps may have some value for very experienced scrub nurses but the majority of the time this just correlates with "what surgeon is nice to me, takes the least time, and doesnt let the residents do anything?"

The best answer is definitely to find a chief resident, give them 3 beers, and then ask them. This is hard to do for most patients
 
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There are several categories of bad surgeons IMO:
1. Bad technical skills. Complications include recurrences, enterotomies, leaks, bleeds, etc. at higher rates.
2. Bad judgment. Poor patient selection, possibly combined with overestimation of skill (ego). Complications include infections, medical complications set off by surgery, healing problems, death, etc. because they didn't know when NOT to operate. Judgment is a lot harder, if not impossible, to fix and hardest for people in a different field to recognize as the underlying problem.
corollary: bad intraop judgment. Does great until the unexpected happens, after which things derail due to not knowing what to do next or simply panicking. Unable to think clearly on the fly. Needs someone to come help bail them out, but may not recognize they need help or ever ask for it.
3. The jerk. Bad bedside manner. Correlates to patients not having realistic expectations as to outcomes, risks, etc. or possibly no understanding of what is recommended and why, or if there are other options. Complications, while quite possibly managed appropriately, are not explained leading to patient mistrust and frustration.
4. The old dog. Won't learn new tricks or refer patients to those who do, and puts patients through maximally invasive surgery when other options would have given equivalent or better outcomes. Insists that what they learned in residency "back in the day" is still standard of care.

Really, I want someone who is the opposite of the above working on me. Which I guess means someone with good judgment and technical skills, able to troubleshoot, conscientious, who cares about outcomes while following current treatment guidelines and evolving their surgical techniques over time.
If you had to rank these, how would you?
 
As a patient, how would you determine if your surgeon is technically skilled and trustworthy? What would you guys as experts rely on if it’s someone you haven’t ever scrubbed with? Are like complication and success rates readily available? Can’t a surgeon just exaggerate if asked by a patient? Interested in your insights.

As a lay patient, it is literally impossible.
 
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As a lay patient, it is literally impossible.
Honestly, trying is probably worse than just flipping coins. That's why people who are dismissive of patients preference for good bedside manner (if I was sick, all I care about is how good they are, I dont care if they are a dick!) miss the point. Good bedside manner is the only thing patients can actually select for.

I think its debatable whether bedside manner correlates with knowledge and skill (probably a little, definitely not a lot) but at least they might be nice and respectful if you have a complication. Getting the double whammy of crappy surgeon who is also a dick is no good
 
The best way, honestly, is to do as much research as you can on Google and WebMD and natural medicine websites. Then, go to your surgeon's office and have an evaluation. If what he or she recommends is exactly what you read on www.hollisticcare.org, then you have a good surgeon. If it isn't, you should tell them that you are quite well educated on the subject at hand, possibly as much as they are even if you weren't handed some fancy piece of paper to prove it. Give them a chance to correct themselves. If they do, you have a decent (but not good) surgeon. If they don't come to their senses, then you should try to reeducate them by explaining what a poison modern medicine is, and then let them know what the appropriate treatment for your condition is. If they won't argue with you, then they're a bad surgeon. If they won't agree with you, then they're a charlatan. You should keep going to different surgeons until you find someone who will give you what you want, and then you know that you have a good surgeon.
 
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If you had to rank these, how would you?

Hmm...good question. The reality is there are surgeons out there who fit into more than one category so it's not that simple.
I'd say:
4. Old dog.
3. Jerk.
2. Bad technical skills.
1 (worst). Bad judgment.

I say this because I've seen young patients die and have life-changing complications for no good reason because someone went and did something that wasn't indicated or properly thought out. At least with bad technical skills, most patients eventually recover from their complications and had a surgery that was indicated to begin with. Plus technical deficiencies can be corrected with mentoring or education, whereas bad judgment is incredibly hard, if not impossible to fix. Those with bad judgment generally don't realize they have bad judgment.
 
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So for those who have had family that needed surgery or if you yourself needed a surgery, how did you pick your surgeon? I realize it’s going to be impossible for an average patient to be able to determine good vs bad surgeons but have you guys done anything different from your own experience?
 
Oh, I don't believe in surgery. Only natural, homeopathic treatments.

Seriously, though, that is a difficult issue. In some cases, I've known the surgeon. I'm not exactly sure that made things easier. After all, that puts more pressure on the surgeon because we have some kind of relationship. In most cases, I simply tell my family to do exactly what most people are describing here: ask how often they do a certain procedure. Ask about complications. Nothing wrong with asking those questions. Make sure you get along with your surgeon.
 
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So for those who have had family that needed surgery or if you yourself needed a surgery, how did you pick your surgeon? I realize it’s going to be impossible for an average patient to be able to determine good vs bad surgeons but have you guys done anything different from your own experience?
Went to one that was in my insurance network and decided if I felt like they explained their reason for selecting the operation well versus other options. Hadn't heard anything bad about the guy and he had a fellowship appropriate for what I was getting done. Asked another surgeon of the same type who I worked with in the hospital for a curbside based on my imaging and symptoms and they agreed the plan was the way to go and that the guy was a fine option for doing it. For someone who isn't a doctor, they can google treatment options for the thing they are being sent to a surgeon for to see if the surgeon discusses them (obviously there may be some search results that are ridiculous but they may not know it so it isn't a matter of the surgeon addressing every single thing or quizzing them on anything they don't bring up, but if there are two major things that pop up on multiple reputable sites and the surgeon doesn't mention one I think it would be fine to ask) including why surgery instead of something nonoperative. Lay people can check the training of the surgeon and can look for things like board certification. They can look at reviews (keeping in mind even great people get bad reviews sometimes). They won't be able to ask another surgeon at work about stuff, but they can get a second opinion and at that they can ask about the opinion of the first surgeon (may not get an answer or they may not know, but mostly just looking to see if there is something bad they say about them or if it seems like they want to say something bad but feel like they can't).
 
As a patient, how would you determine if your surgeon is technically skilled and trustworthy? What would you guys as experts rely on if it’s someone you haven’t ever scrubbed with? Are like complication and success rates readily available? Can’t a surgeon just exaggerate if asked by a patient? Interested in your insights.

Technical skills are only so important, as most board-certified surgeons possess adequate technical skills in their area of expertise.

Judgment and grace under fire are much more important. Unfortunately, very few people observe outpatient decision making...peers and residents really only get a snapshot of this....outcomes are very hard to track as well. Most people, including referring MDs/residents/nurses/scrub techs/anesthesiologists don't know true complication rates, and instead focus on who is the nicest, most timely, fastest, does the coolest cases, etc. PCPs generally consider a surgeon the "best in town" if that surgeon communicates well and sits with the PCP at the lunch table in the doctor's lounge.

An anecdote that I commonly share with my residents: nothing comes out easier than a healthy colon, so if I choose to do a lap sigmoid on a patient that doesn't need it, the case will be very fast and slick, the patient will go home in 1-2 days, and everyone will be talking about what a great surgeon I am....
 
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Technical skills are only so important, as most board-certified surgeons possess adequate technical skills in their area of expertise.

Judgment and grace under fire are much more important. Unfortunately, very few people observe outpatient decision making...peers and residents really only get a snapshot of this....outcomes are very hard to track as well. Most people, including referring MDs/residents/nurses/scrub techs/anesthesiologists don't know true complication rates, and instead focus on who is the nicest, most timely, fastest, does the coolest cases, etc. PCPs generally consider a surgeon the "best in town" if that surgeon communicates well and sits with the PCP at the lunch table in the doctor's lounge.

An anecdote that I commonly share with my residents: nothing comes out easier than a healthy colon, so if I choose to do a lap sigmoid on a patient that doesn't need it, the case will be very fast and slick, the patient will go home in 1-2 days, and everyone will be talking about what a great surgeon I am....
That's fantastic. See, if I did a lap sigmoid on a healthy colon, I'd probably still kill the guy.

But I'm not a general surgeon, so that probably factors in.
 
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Technical skills are only so important, as most board-certified surgeons possess adequate technical skills in their area of expertise.

Judgment and grace under fire are much more important. Unfortunately, very few people observe outpatient decision making...peers and residents really only get a snapshot of this....outcomes are very hard to track as well. Most people, including referring MDs/residents/nurses/scrub techs/anesthesiologists don't know true complication rates, and instead focus on who is the nicest, most timely, fastest, does the coolest cases, etc. PCPs generally consider a surgeon the "best in town" if that surgeon communicates well and sits with the PCP at the lunch table in the doctor's lounge.

An anecdote that I commonly share with my residents: nothing comes out easier than a healthy colon, so if I choose to do a lap sigmoid on a patient that doesn't need it, the case will be very fast and slick, the patient will go home in 1-2 days, and everyone will be talking about what a great surgeon I am....

Echo the above. The only people privy to a surgeon’s all-around skill and decision making is a senior surgical resident or fellow. There’s just no way any lay person can get that information is any reliable way.
 
So I guess all we can do even as healthcare professionals is trust our colleagues and hope that they’re acting in the patients best interest. I guess this is why choosing caring, compassionate, and ethical students to become doctors is so important. Thanks for all the insights they’re very appreciated.
 
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