how can a family doc make it anymore?

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Hello,
If she wants the area that badly, she may just have to start completely from SCRATCH and go solo. There are a few good articles of docs who went into SOLO practice. It is challenging, but it can be done.

-Derek

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Originally posted by HamSandwich
i hope this link comes thru....check out the physicians per capita. you can do it for any city/state

http://www.bestplaces.net/html/ccheal.asp?lstat=NC&lcity=3712000&rstat=NC&rcity=3711800


wow, well, that pretty much sums up what we've been told. that FPs are closing practices because there aren't enough patients to go around. with four times the national average of physicians per capita.... wow.

anyway, opening a solo practice in a new location that you just moved into that has 4 times the national average of physicians per capita where the established physicians are closing their practices for lack of patients... hmm.. well that doesn't seem challenging. that seems improbable.
 
Here's a funky twist for you. You are worried about having patient volume in a saturated area?? She should open up shop and advertise as "Specializing in pain management and Anxiety disorders...and accepts MEDICAID". She'll have a line of patients from the door a MILE LONG. May not be the most savory patient population, but she will have no shortage of volume, and many of the docs in town would just LOVE to get rid of their chronic pain patients.
Study the area and see what niches are untapped. No matter what area you are in, there is ALWAYS different niches to tap into. Do something that ONLY a few people do...Like my aforementioned example...PEACE!!

-Derek Sampson, MD
 
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Originally posted by dksamp
Here's a funky twist for you. You are worried about having patient volume in a saturated area?? She should open up shop and advertise as "Specializing in pain management and Anxiety disorders...and accepts MEDICAID". She'll have a line of patients from the door a MILE LONG. May not be the most savory patient population, but she will have no shortage of volume, and many of the docs in town would just LOVE to get rid of their chronic pain patients.
Study the area and see what niches are untapped. No matter what area you are in, there is ALWAYS different niches to tap into. Do something that ONLY a few people do...Like my aforementioned example...PEACE!!

-Derek Sampson, MD

wow, take the patients that no one wants for the compensation that no one would do it for....

well, she's looking into some options now that aren't quite so unsavory but your advice is appreciated.
 
So you guys are basically saying that you can't live in a large city and practice family medicine?

I plan on living in a large city maybe not NYC, SF, Chicago or cities like that. But I at least plan on living in Austin, Houston, Phoenix, Seattle, Orlando or a city of that size.

Is it that difficult to join a smarll partnership group in a city of this size?
 
no, you're probably better off in a large city than in a mid size city. my friends in FP have zero problems finding jobs in LA.
 
lots of fp jobs in the pacific northwest too.
seattle/tacoma
portland/vancouver
lots of em positions looking for fp folks too, mostly low volume e.d,'s
 
Hello,
I practice Fp in a large city in the Southeastern US. and my group distinguishes itself by the niche market that we tap into that only a FEW people do. We see international patients with international insurance (canadian, South American, etc), tourists, and a WHOLE lot of French Canadians (VERY few practices cater to this market). A thorough study of your desired market should reveal niche markets that only a few people do. How about such things as cosmetic procedures?? (botox, laser hair removal, dermabrasion), many primary care docs are expanding their repertoire of skills to widen their patient base. Something to think about. PEACE!

-Derek
 
How much do you think an FP doctor should make if he could write his own ticket?

200000
250000
300000
350000
400000
Gross.

What do you think?
 
I have noticed that several people have come forward with advice for Neos' friend. What ever she does should be quick. She should by no means open up a practice catering to patients with anxiety disorders and chronic pain. She will end up a licensed drug pusher. To make matters worse someone said that she should focus on medicaid patients. The prescribing of narcotic analgesics is becoming a hot issue. Most physicians try to get rid of chronic pain patients or at least refer them to pain management. Riff raf from all over will show up at this unfortunate young ladies office. In time the DEA or ME( Medical Examiner) may show up also.

Something will open up for this physician , eventually. She has to keep looking.


CambieMD

p.s.

"Can you get me some of the blue ones?"
Statement attributed to Rush Limbaugh by his former housekeeper.
 
Dude,
I was being sarcastic/facetious when I was suggesting the anxiety/pain clinic...Can't you take a joke?? OF COURSE, most docs don't wanna touch that stuff with a 20 foot pole. I myself don't mess with that either. The $35-$65 I may make (net) from that visit is NOT WORTH me getting a long line of ding-dongs and drug seekers filing past my door driving me and the staff nuts, and potentially causing me to come under review from the DEA and the state medical board.

PEACE!

-Derek Sampson, MD
 
dksamp said:
Dude,
I was being sarcastic/facetious when I was suggesting the anxiety/pain clinic...Can't you take a joke?? OF COURSE, most docs don't wanna touch that stuff with a 20 foot pole. I myself don't mess with that either. The $35-$65 I may make (net) from that visit is NOT WORTH me getting a long line of ding-dongs and drug seekers filing past my door driving me and the staff nuts, and potentially causing me to come under review from the DEA and the state medical board.

PEACE!

-Derek Sampson, MD


um.... ok.
 
NEO, did your friend ever locate a position in Durham? If not, could she consider doing a fellowship? Could provide an edge over area competition. Just a thought.
 
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If a person desires to live in a rural area and isn't too worried about exactly where, aren't there loan repayment opportunities for FP? And couldn't these erase the school debt? Or are these limited in scope? I've heard of the NHSC, but are there others which are available to choose AFTER you finish schooling? There must be some good ways of lowering that debt. I am sure i want to go into FP and I am from the rural U.P. Michigan.

-dan
 
Good gracious, people! Why on earth are so many obsessed with money??? Are there that many of you that chose medicine because you thought you could make a ton of money? I will be delighted if I can make more than what I'm making now as a bookkeeper ($25k). If you can't make it or be satisfied with making $60-80k, then I do feel quite sorry for you. Granted, by the time you finish school, you've got a big debt. But anyone who expects to earn BIG bucks and live like a mini-Trump not long after school is either delusional or really, REALLY lucky. When I'm finished with school and residency (I'm planning on family medicine), I expect to live in the same house I do now - a smallish 27 yr old house - drive the same car (2 yr old nice car no where near the level of a Lexus et al), shop at Wal Mart, etc. If I can manage a retirement plan, great! If I can manage money to pay for my son's college education, GREAT! And no, I'm not so idealistic that I don't care at all about money....when you don't have much, it means a great deal. And since I've been in accounting for 25 years (12 of it in public accounting), I'm well aware of the business side of medicine. I understand you want to make a profit, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But, keep it in perspective, people. Money is not the be-all end-all. I can guarantee you that if that means more to you than the actual practice of medicine, then you'll never find satisfaction in your work, you'll never experience joy in the doing. And the sad thing is, that no matter what profession you end up choosing, it will end up being joyless. And even if you become the next Trump, that will not be living.

(Okay, getting off my soapbox now...)
 
Med school and residency is a huge sacrifice. You give up a high paying job you could have had after undergrad, you pay tuition and go in debt, you neglect yourself, your family, your friends, your world revolves around medicine and the hospital, and you're always under the pressure to do the best for your patients and do the best on some mulitple choice exam that NEVER seem to end... and that's assuming you just want to pass. And that's just the first 7 years.

Then when you get out, there's all the hassles, patients who don't get better, all the politics, all the crap. I mean, there has to be SOME reward. The pay HAS to be reasonable or else it's just not worth it to do it (I don't care how much you love your job).

<sigh> I'm in trouble. I'm bitter already.
 
This is a website from an Austin area FP with a 20 year established practice, full of patients.

His income has declined 50% since 1994!

He has a list of insurance companies and their reimbursement rates. It lists a column for total income and income minus overhead.

Medicare and most insurance companies give FPs NEGATIVE CASH FLOW RELATIVE TO OVERHEAD!

Wake up and smell the coffee:

http://home.austin.rr.com/austintxmd/Pages/insindex.html

Medicare patients result in a -$7.59 hourly loss for doctors. That is, doctors LOSE MONEY when they take Medicare patients.

If a doctor has a practice that is 100% Medicare, he will make only $14,000 a year.

Its not that much better for most of the other companies either.
 
you know i have been looking for this very type thing where someone takes these ins co's head to head and compare the reimbursements. thanks for posting the article. its a shame just how little docs get paid and just how much people are paying for these policies. insurance companies just suck. you think if i only say accepted the top 10 companies with either A,B, or C rankings that I would get enough pts to build a practice? i mean these are obviously the better companies, but just how many folks are out there getting these top insurance companies?
 
Mac, that's an excellent link. I think med students and residents could learna thing or two from what he has to say, and I'm taking the liberty of posting it over at the general residency forum.
 
PREACH Sista, PREACH ON!!!!! Welllll....Can I get a witness...hmm..hmmmm!!


drlisa0318 said:
Good gracious, people! Why on earth are so many obsessed with money??? Are there that many of you that chose medicine because you thought you could make a ton of money? I will be delighted if I can make more than what I'm making now as a bookkeeper ($25k). If you can't make it or be satisfied with making $60-80k, then I do feel quite sorry for you. Granted, by the time you finish school, you've got a big debt. But anyone who expects to earn BIG bucks and live like a mini-Trump not long after school is either delusional or really, REALLY lucky. When I'm finished with school and residency (I'm planning on family medicine), I expect to live in the same house I do now - a smallish 27 yr old house - drive the same car (2 yr old nice car no where near the level of a Lexus et al), shop at Wal Mart, etc. If I can manage a retirement plan, great! If I can manage money to pay for my son's college education, GREAT! And no, I'm not so idealistic that I don't care at all about money....when you don't have much, it means a great deal. And since I've been in accounting for 25 years (12 of it in public accounting), I'm well aware of the business side of medicine. I understand you want to make a profit, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But, keep it in perspective, people. Money is not the be-all end-all. I can guarantee you that if that means more to you than the actual practice of medicine, then you'll never find satisfaction in your work, you'll never experience joy in the doing. And the sad thing is, that no matter what profession you end up choosing, it will end up being joyless. And even if you become the next Trump, that will not be living.

(Okay, getting off my soapbox now...)
 
dksamp said:
PREACH Sista, PREACH ON!!!!! Welllll....Can I get a witness...hmm..hmmmm!!

Thank you! Now, Brother DKSAMP, if you wouldn't mind passing the plate... :laugh:
 
Hello everyone,
Dr. Sampson here. I'd like to make a few points with regards to that website. My office manager and I combed through that website and found it interesting. However, there are a few point to be made here.

1-The AGE of the data. All I see is fugures and data from 1997-1998. THAT WAS 6 YEARS AGO. A WHOLE LOT has changed in 6 years. How come nothing CURRENT is posted??? :confused:

2-Medicine is REGIONAL !!! Whatever goes on TEXAS, does NOT necessarily go on in other states. For example the insurance reimbursement. Here in my state, Medicare is the BEST payer, the only higher payers are PHCS and Canadian insurance plans (Des Jardins, Trent, SSQ, etc) ,all others pay a PERCENTAGE of the medicare rate (between 70-90%). Blue Cross for example, pays 80% of the medicare rate. On the FLIP side, insurance on the Beech Street network is one of the WORST payers around. Beech Street is somewhere between 50-60% of the Medicare rate, which is why my group does not take anything in the beech street network. I found it interesting that on his site, ,Medicare was the worst reimburser, but the stuff on Beech Street were one of the best payers.

3-NOWHERE on his site do I see anything about hospitalizations. In the private practice world where I am at, Doing inpatient hospital admissions is a GOOD source of income. Most months, I make more from my hostpializations then I do my outpatients, especially during the winter season. Now the KEY is to do hospitalizations and do "unassigned on call" in private hosptials that have a high yield of insured patients. If you do the same at "county" hosptials, your income yield won't be good, because you will admit a higher percentage of uninsured patients.

4-How come the Physician who runs his site doesn't post his NET/TAKE HOME PAY?? I see the expenses, and what the insurance reimburses, maybe I am not looking thoroughly enough, but I don't see a gross and a net income. Even better would be some 2003 figures and not some 1998 figures.

**and finally**
5-Simple equation...MD =/= MBA (MD DOES NOT EQUAL MBA)
I will reiterate a point made by a previoius poster. Just because you had the scientific acumen to finish medical school and residency, DOES NOT MEAN, you have the buisiness and financial acumen to RUN A PROFITABLE BUSINESS. Too many people falsely assume that since they are of a certain specialty, that the money should just be rolling in. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If you don't make the proper "buisinessman" decisions after your training, you can find youself in a financial situation that is NOT rewarding. In my same town, ther are FP's that are doing GREAT financially, and on the flip side, I know of one that was losing his shirt. These ppl are both in the same region, but one is doing well, and the other wasn't. The LAUNDRY LIST of factors that determine how much $$$ you will make is TOO long and extensive to list here completely (maybe I will list them one day, but even then it wouldn;t be complete).

Anyway, enough of my rambling. By the way Macgyver, why is it that you are so damn evasive about giving your credentials?? (I already gave mine in a previous post)..hmmmmm :cool:

-Derek


MacGyver said:
This is a website from an Austin area FP with a 20 year established practice, full of patients.

His income has declined 50% since 1994!

He has a list of insurance companies and their reimbursement rates. It lists a column for total income and income minus overhead.

Medicare and most insurance companies give FPs NEGATIVE CASH FLOW RELATIVE TO OVERHEAD!

Wake up and smell the coffee:

http://home.austin.rr.com/austintxmd/Pages/insindex.html

Medicare patients result in a -$7.59 hourly loss for doctors. That is, doctors LOSE MONEY when they take Medicare patients.

If a doctor has a practice that is 100% Medicare, he will make only $14,000 a year.

Its not that much better for most of the other companies either.
 
Hi,

I could post a long response to dksamps' post but what he wrote supports my point nicely.

CambieMD
 
After finding this old thread and reading through it I have become very depressed about the prospects of FP since I will be coming out with $240-250K in debt. There is a lot of good information in this thread and I would recommend taking a look at it if you haven't already.
 

Yeah I agree this topic is discussed quite frequently on SDN, but it is one that affects/will affect all of us. Not to mention the new bill before the Senate that will reduce Medicare payments by 10.1%. It is something worth talking about, at least to me.
 
My brother is a FP who has his own clinic in a small rural town. He also has a NP who works there 4 days per week. He takes approx. 45 24-hr ER calls per year at $125/hr. This works out to be 135K per year for an additional 45 calls. The next day he only works a few days in the clinic and the NP covers or he does them on the weekend. Not for everyone I guess, but an extra 135K is nice.
 
My brother is a FP who has his own clinic in a small rural town. He also has a NP who works there 4 days per week. He takes approx. 45 24-hr ER calls per year at $125/hr. This works out to be 135K per year for an additional 45 calls. The next day he only works a few days in the clinic and the NP covers or he does them on the weekend. Not for everyone I guess, but an extra 135K is nice.

Working a few shifts a month at an ER sure would help pay back the student loans easier. If you are in a practice where each physician takes their own call, what would one do in the case of working at the ER and being called? Just have them come into the ER? I also know that most ERs require that the physician be board certified except in the rural areas that gladly take FP docs to work in the ER. Is there a general size of the town that will take a FP for the ER? Lets say like >30k?
 
I plan on:

1. working in a HPSA area (eradicates, hopefully, 120k of my loans)
2. moonlight on weekends at the ER
3. possibly starting my own clinic
4. having my thumbs in others' pies
 
I also know that most ERs require that the physician be board certified except in the rural areas that gladly take FP docs to work in the ER. Is there a general size of the town that will take a FP for the ER? Lets say like >30k?

I live in a town of >300K and the largest level one trauma center in town has mainly FM docs as the ER docs with the head of the ER department being med/peds. Of course Trauma surgeons handle all level 2 and 1 traumas.
 
I live in a town of >300K and the largest level one trauma center in town has mainly FM docs as the ER docs with the head of the ER department being med/peds. Of course Trauma surgeons handle all level 2 and 1 traumas.

I don't think it is as hard to get a job workin in the ER as the EM folks would have you believe. Running an ER might be tough job to get but who wants that job anyway? :)
 
I live in a town of >300K and the largest level one trauma center in town has mainly FM docs as the ER docs with the head of the ER department being med/peds. Of course Trauma surgeons handle all level 2 and 1 traumas.

Interesting. Are they recent FM graduates, or older? I know a lot of the FM docs that practiced EM got grandfathered in when there was the switch to board certified/trained EM physicians. Wonder if that is the case at that hospital.
 
They ran the spectrum of ages. The youngest I would say was in her early thirties so not that far out of residency/school.
It's all about the environment really. If a city is oversaturated with ER docs then a hospital can easily say they only want ER trained docs. If the city is not then they are very open to FM, Peds, or IM docs to fill the positions. If it's not a big city with an ER program there is probably a lot smaller ER trained population than you think.
 
http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/publications/otherpubs/debtmgmt/graduation/income.html

Income

Determining your future income is a complicated process. Numerous variables, such as the region, practice setting and number and mix of patients in the practice, contribute to the income formula. Examining the contributing factors to income can help you sift through the myths and find the truth.

Separate Fact from Fiction: Your Future Income Potential

A recent study indicates that students often misjudge the typical income of physicians, especially physicians working primary care settings. For example, it isn't unusual for students to hear that physicians working in family medicine don’t make enough to pay off their loans. However, the truth is that family physicians make enough money to pay off student loans and have the lifestyle they want.

New family medicine residency graduates can expect to make around $125,000 after expenses, which compares favorably to the average starting salaries in internal medicine ($128,000) and pediatrics ($120,000). According to one of the nation’s largest physician recruitment agencies, the average salary offer made to family physicians in 2004 grew from $144,000 to 146,000.

Family physician income is highly dependent on region, practice setting and the number and mix of patients. A family physician's flexibility to tailor clinical services offered to patients can shape income. For example, family physicians who see more patients and see patients in the hospital will have a higher income. In the future, incomes for family physicians are projected to increase as much as 25% in practices that use new technologies and new care models, such as chronic disease management

In 2003, the median level of educational debt of family medicine graduates was $93,438 compared with $102,452 for all medical school graduates in 2003.

The best thing you can do to evaluate income potential is to consult credible sources for physician income, such as national and regional specialty societies. Compare median and mean data to get an accurate view of the market. Keep in mind that the mean, or average, can be affected by extreme values. The median is the midpoint with half of the responses above that number and half fall below. Keep in mind that in salary data, the median will almost always be lower than the mean.
 
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