Hourly rate

[mihirtak]

In the process of looking for a job next year around the country. Just out of curiosity, was wondering what the hourly pay is on average (whether it’s base or base plus rvu) that y’all are getting. If you don’t mind sharing what region of country and if CMG or private, would be appreciated!

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[NYEMMED]

In the process of looking for a job next year around the country. Just out of curiosity, was wondering what the hourly pay is on average (whether it’s base or base plus rvu) that y’all are getting. If you don’t mind sharing what region of country and if CMG or private, would be appreciated!

CMG- southeast 250-270. Base + RVU

Obviously not USACS

 

[Mr. Vandemar]

Also SE, CMG, 210 + some meh RVU.

 

[miacomet]

Yeech, that's crappy

 

[cyanide12345678]

Was making $260/hr 1099 with team health last year in the midwest. Averaged 1.8 pph. Left that place in search of longevity.

Now making $200/hr averaging 1.1-1.3 pph in the Midwest in a critical access hospital in a rural town as part of one of the large university hospital systems. I also get $20k-ish as a performance bonus which is pretty easy to get. Plus some excellent university affiliated benefits (13k match, 5k cme, unlimited money for professional dues, and the usual benefits).

The hourly rate is important, but also important are benefits - 1099 vs w2, patients per hour etc. if someone is making $270/hr, are they seeing 2.5 patients per hour on average? I would personally pick 200/hr seeing 1.2 pph over 270/hr seeing 2.5 pph. The volume of patients is a very important metric that needs to be considered.

The metric i personally used when deciding between jobs was $/patient seen. If you are making around $150/patient seen, you’re being paid well since that is roughly around the average revenue collection per patient -but it varies by area, patient population, insurance type etc.

Good luck with your job search

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Know thy worth. $150/patient, $300/hour at 2 pph.

 

[gruemd]

Midwest SDG. Now partner. Pre-partner pay was only around $155 hourly (I know) but had some other benefits with retirement/reimbursement plans that brought it up to probably around $180. Harder to directly quantify because the group pays things like health care premiums and a couple other benefits that others would normally see come out of their gross pay, so maybe even a bit higher than that.

Partner pay (same hourly but with profit sharing several times yearly) will likely be about $275/hr but again doesn't account for some W2 benefits that aren't taken directly from my paycheck, so probably a bit higher than that with benefits. This actually made me run some reports and my PPH are averaging 1.8 the past 6-7 months, so with partner pay that's more in line with about $150 per patient.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Man I wish inhad the freedom to move to the SE

 

[Rekt]

Hourly rate is obviously important, but as a new grad you need to focus on the long term. The guys above in the SE pulling 270-300/hr at CMGs will either be pulling sub 200/hr or unemployed in 5-7 years.

Depends on each person's financial background. If you have no loans and can't see yourself outside of a desirable place. Go in knowing you won't break over 200/hr and eventually will make the same as mid levels once saturation hits. Or find an employed or SDG gig in a less desirable place to shield against the surplus.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Northeast. Approx 200/hr w2 with crappy match.

Prerty easy to slack off and see 1.4 to 1
6 pph though.

 

[NicksMD]

For RVU jobs does anyone know about how many RVUs they generate per hour or per patient? I know it’s about $34 per RVU.

 

[Groove]

In the process of looking for a job next year around the country. Just out of curiosity, was wondering what the hourly pay is on average (whether it’s base or base plus rvu) that y’all are getting. If you don’t mind sharing what region of country and if CMG or private, would be appreciated!

I'm in the SE. $250-270/hr. We see around 2pph as a group average. CMG/1099

 

[trackrunner321]

Hourly in large Midwest cities (Chicago, Indy, Milwaukee, etc.) is around $200/hr.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Hourly in large Midwest cities (Chicago, Indy, Milwaukee, etc.) is around $200/hr.

Not really. I’m in 1 of these and only make 200/hr because i work at a low volume critical access. There’s an SDG job 20 minutes away that pays 300-350, profit sharing on day 1, but you are seeing 2.5 to 3 pph and even calling the consultants for the PAs because the hospitalists don’t want to talk to them.

Literally a pseudo ED that’s mostly an urgent care with 1 percent admission 10 minutes from my house pays 220/hr plus quarterly bonuses. But you’re seeing 25-35 urgent care type patients a shift so id rather not do that job.

But yeah 200/hr is really not the only option in town.

 

[emdoc799]

Not really. I’m in 1 of these and only make 200/hr because i work at a low volume critical access. There’s an SDG job 20 minutes away that pays 300-350, profit sharing on day 1, but you are seeing 2.5 to 3 pph and even calling the consultants for the PAs because the hospitalists don’t want to talk to them.

Literally a pseudo ED that’s mostly an urgent care with 1 percent admission 10 minutes from my house pays 220/hr plus quarterly bonuses. But you’re seeing 25-35 urgent care type patients a shift so id rather not do that job.

But yeah 200/hr is really not the only option in town.

this describes my job exactly.
2.5-3 pph, SDG, it is expected that I call every consultant and wrap the patient in a nice package before they will ever consider admitting. Some of our hospitalists are so whiny and weak. Others are good.
However, compared to the jobs our residency graduates are getting, I am in a relatively good position minus the standard problems that come with being in a small group.

 

[lucid_leprechaun]

this describes my job exactly.
2.5-3 pph, SDG, it is expected that I call every consultant and wrap the patient in a nice package before they will ever consider admitting. Some of our hospitalists are so whiny and weak. Others are good.
However, compared to the jobs our residency graduates are getting, I am in a relatively good position minus the standard problems that come with being in a small group.

220/hr W2 with benefits, Midwest. 3-5 pts/hr with midlevels. It’s pretty brutal

 

[Tenk]

PNW: $250/hr w-2 with benefits/retirement. Employee of the healthcare system.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

220/hr W2 with benefits, Midwest. 3-5 pts/hr with midlevels. It’s pretty brutal

This is a sweat shop.

 

[GatorCHOMPions]

Usual pay in areas just outside NYC are like 200-225/hour fixed for hospital employed, CMG ICs range from 100% RVU at $24/RVU to $215/hour with $34/RVU after you meet your base. PPH seems to be like 2-2.5/hour

 

[alpinism]

Docs looking for jobs should always remember that 150 is the golden number you should be earning on average for each patient.

The most common way corporate groups take advantage of their docs is by increasing patients without increasing payments.

Perfect example of an horrible exploitative job from Vituity that was just posted on emdocs.

Level 3 trauma center with 50k volume 1 hr from Portland to see 3 per hr for 250 hourly.

 

[Prehealth1011]

This thread will definitely lead to an uptick in EM applicants next year

 

[CajunMedic]

Border of Midwest and Northeast: SDG. 180/hr days 200/hr nights. W-2 with paid benefits and 401k w/match.

My PRN gigs are both 250/hr. One is CMG 1099, the other is Employed W-2

 

[cyanide12345678]

This thread will definitely lead to an uptick in EM applicants next year

Med students dont realize how difficult it is to see 2.5-3 pph. It’s not fun by any means.

 

[miacomet]

Border of Midwest and Northeast: SDG. 180/hr days 200/hr nights. W-2 with paid benefits and 401k w/match.

My PRN gigs are both 250/hr. One is CMG 1099, the other is Employed W-2

Yikes, that better not be after you make partner?!

How many PPH?

 

[PianoMedic]

Midwest, SDG. We cover all EDs in the health system, includes trauma centers, one high volume penetrating. Also critical access hospitals, so a weird mix. We are staffed for 1.5-1.7 pph, but surges it’ll get much higher obviously. I usually see about 1.8-2 pph overnights. $225/ hr days, $240/hr nights, W-2 initially with profit sharing after two years. Partner possible at 5 but not guaranteed (gotta help the group out on committees, time is often reimbursed though). Get half our hsa paid for, no 401k match but often an annual bonus, have access to cash balance plan, lots of other benefits that are difficult to quantify. Profit sharing doubles if you don’t want partner or don’t get voted in as partner.

 

[Rekt]

Midwest, SDG. We cover all EDs in the health system, includes trauma centers, one high volume penetrating. Also critical access hospitals, so a weird mix. We are staffed for 1.5-1.7 pph, but surges it’ll get much higher obviously. I usually see about 1.8-2 pph overnights. $225/ hr days, $240/hr nights, W-2 initially with profit sharing after two years. Partner possible at 5 but not guaranteed (gotta help the group out on committees, time is often reimbursed though). Get half our hsa paid for, no 401k match but often an annual bonus, have access to cash balance plan, lots of other benefits that are difficult to quantify. Profit sharing doubles if you don’t want partner or don’t get voted in as partner.

5 year track in the Midwest and not even a guarantee.

Mega yikes

 

[miacomet]

5 year track in the Midwest and not even a guarantee.

Mega yikes

Right?
The profit sharing and benefits better be out of this world.

 

[Tiger26]

$252 in the Midwest at each of our sites. Maybe 1.2 per hour at the main site, maybe 0.5-1.0 at our critical access hospital. Full benefits, $6800 CME, full pension

 

[emdoc799]

5 year track in the Midwest and not even a guarantee.

Mega yike

Midwest, SDG. We cover all EDs in the health system, includes trauma centers, one high volume penetrating. Also critical access hospitals, so a weird mix. We are staffed for 1.5-1.7 pph, but surges it’ll get much higher obviously. I usually see about 1.8-2 pph overnights. $225/ hr days, $240/hr nights, W-2 initially with profit sharing after two years. Partner possible at 5 but not guaranteed (gotta help the group out on committees, time is often reimbursed though). Get half our hsa paid for, no 401k match but often an annual bonus, have access to cash balance plan, lots of other benefits that are difficult to quantify. Profit sharing doubles if you don’t want partner or don’t get voted in as partner.

How many in the last decade have not made partner? Are you eligible for repeat vote if you don’t get in?
I talked with a guy about a job in the SE that was a 2 year partnership track but you did only nights. Nope.

 

[EctopicFetus]

$252 in the Midwest at each of our sites. Maybe 1.2 per hour at the main site, maybe 0.5-1.0 at our critical access hospital. Full benefits, $6800 CME, full pension

What is “full pension”. Quantify that.

 

[qwerty89]

With all these 401k matches how much $$$ are you able to put away pre tax total including match? As a 1099 you can put up to $61,000.

 

[Janders]

Docs looking for jobs should always remember that 150 is the golden number you should be earning on average for each patient.

The most common way corporate groups take advantage of their docs is by increasing patients without increasing payments.

Perfect example of an horrible exploitative job from Vituity that was just posted on emdocs.

Level 3 trauma center with 50k volume 1 hr from Portland to see 3 per hr for 250 hourly.

I agree that a rough $150/pt for all-comers, nationally, profession-fee-only is ROUGHLY what the group will get for seeing a patient.

However there is SOME overhead that must be accounted for… coding/billing, some degree of group admin, some minimal banking/accounting/HR, some payroll. Are you using PAs, but taking their billing under your name? If so you need to pay their salaries (but it should still earn you some profit).

So, as always, open books tell the truth. The overhead might be reasonably in the 10-20% range, depending on factors above.


Its like comparing hourly rates when one job is a 1099, the other has medical dental umbrella insurance 13% 403b matching and sundry minor benefits… apples and candied apples.

 

[GatorCHOMPions]

I agree that a rough $150/pt for all-comers, nationally, profession-fee-only is ROUGHLY what the group will get for seeing a patient.

However there is SOME overhead that must be accounted for… coding/billing, some degree of group admin, some minimal banking/accounting/HR, some payroll. Are you using PAs, but taking their billing under your name? If so you need to pay their salaries (but it should still earn you some profit).

So, as always, open books tell the truth. The overhead might be reasonably in the 10-20% range, depending on factors above.


Its like comparing hourly rates when one job is a 1099, the other has medical dental umbrella insurance 13% 403b matching and sundry minor benefits… apples and candied apples.

I was always confused about the $150 per patient figure, so it is on average what is collected in professional fees per patient? Then yeah overhead is definitely cutting into that figure before it winds up in your pocket. Is typical EM overhead really only 10-20%? I can only speak to the private practice pain world as a comparison, but overhead in that arena is usually quoted as like 40-50%, and if you're part of a high-performance orthopedics group it can be 60-70%.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Depends on the group. Fwiw the leaked app investor presentation showed their avg collection per patient was 165. I have heard similar for USACS. Unsure if their number includes subsidies. Let’s assume it does.
now the “overhead”.
med mal - roughly $5 per patient.
billing and coding $8 a patient.
medical director. - depends a lot but for a normal sized Ed it’s $2-3 per patient. $100k a year roughly.
what other overhead is there?
also don’t forget MLPs make way less and depending on how they are used are a major profit center.
i have been told by CMG execs that they staff 1 pph for MLP hour. So collect 165 pay 100?

assuming you collect $165/ pt your expenses are $15-16/ pt.
maybe I missed something. Thoughts? Again keep in mind plenty of MLP profit we didn’t even take into account.

 

[Janders]

Rough Ballparks—>
Coding/Billing 5-8%
HR services payroll retirement account set up 2.5%
All other “admin” (doc admin positions, scheduling, scheduling software, some accountant attention, etc) 5%

I think thats about as cheap as you could cut it.

Then if you have PAs they might eat anough 10% in “cost” but also earn you more money on top of that (their patients assigned to you).

 

[EthylMethylMan]

CMG, Midwest, $216/hr (per-diem). Haven't started yet, but from what I hear it's around 1.3-1.5 pph.

 

[Tiger26]

What is “full pension”. Quantify that.

Based on years of service--can either take a lump sum or annuity. I'll make like 12-14k month in today's money after 25 years of being there but you can draw when you leave. One guy had about 8 years and took a 500k lump sum, another had about 15 and took about 1.5 million

 

[EctopicFetus]

Issues that complicate Things are subsidies.
i couldn’t imagine working for under 100/ pt. Agreed with the rest around 150/ pt is fair but hard to find.
fwiw I would rather see 2 pph than 1.3 if I was getting paid per pt.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Based on years of service--can either take a lump sum or annuity. I'll make like 12-14k month in today's money after 25 years of being there but you can draw when you leave. One guy had about 8 years and took a 500k lump sum, another had about 15 and took about 1.5 million

Yeah but it sounds like full pension is worth may 60-70k a year (not including returns).

 

[cyanide12345678]

Based on years of service--can either take a lump sum or annuity. I'll make like 12-14k month in today's money after 25 years of being there but you can draw when you leave. One guy had about 8 years and took a 500k lump sum, another had about 15 and took about 1.5 million

I want your job. Are you guys hiring 😂

 

[oldtown]

I was always confused about the $150 per patient figure, so it is on average what is collected in professional fees per patient? Then yeah overhead is definitely cutting into that figure before it winds up in your pocket. Is typical EM overhead really only 10-20%? I can only speak to the private practice pain world as a comparison, but overhead in that arena is usually quoted as like 40-50%, and if you're part of a high-performance orthopedics group it can be 60-70%.

Overhead in EM is a lot less because most of the typical high cost line items either don’t exist or are covered by the hospital (Facility related costs/rent, supplies, nurses and other support staff).

A private practice with patient continuity has to pay rent, pay utilities, pay for medical supplies, hire receptionist, MA’s, RN’s). EM practices just have to pay for malpractice and administrative costs (billing, financial bookkeeping, etc.), hence the lower overhead

 

[WildEMDoc]

Yo been looking for a gig in the SE area and haven't seen any rates close to these. If any of you guys sweet gigs happen to be in GA/SC/NC/TN happen to be looking for docs PM me lol.

Currently in the upland south/midwest-ish academic/community split. 200/hr at the academic shop, 240/hr at community sites.

 

[bravotwozero]

Yeah but it sounds like full pension is worth may 60-70k a year (not including returns).

Add another 30k in social security when you hit 65, not a bad deal…

 

[emergentmd]

Doesn't seem like EM pay is going down looking at this thread.

 

[Rekt]

Doesn't seem like EM pay is going down looking at this thread.

It's only been a year since the workforce study. Give it time.

 

[Tiger26]

I want your job. Are you guys hiring 😂

Let me know if you're interested. We've had a few retirements and are hiring. We have a great group and are 2 hours from Minneapolis with a regional airport, in a college town on the Mississippi. All specialists available either locally or via our main hospital. When a lot of other places were cutting pay after covid, we got a 10% raise.

 

[Kryptocoin]

I make $375 hourly at one facility as a 1099. That rate was not advertised. I negotiated that directly with the group bypassing locums (I don't use locums). I see 3pph, and most are nursing home trainwrecks. The gig is not sustainable long-term, so I pick up just a few shifts a month to pad my wallet.

They probably get rid of me soon when they find someone who can do the job cheaper. I'd miss the pay but not the job.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Add another 30k in social security when you hit 65, not a bad deal…

I don’t count on social security in my plan. They will means test it and squeeze “the rich”. Maybe it will be 100%, maybe 70. For me it will be a bonus.

It’s not bad for sure. My main point is there is a value right now for that money. Need to figure that out so you can sort out hourly pay today.

Keep in mind the VA has a pension too.

Invest wisely the rest handles itself. My kids 529s have returned more than what we put in. That’s why we all do and should invest.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Doesn't seem like EM pay is going down looking at this thread.

Takes time. And in pockets it definitely has. I know a few local shops who cut pay 10-15%.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I make $375 hourly at one facility as a 1099. That rate was not advertised. I negotiated that directly with the group bypassing locums (I don't use locums). I see 3pph, and most are nursing home trainwrecks. The gig is not sustainable long-term, so I pick up just a few shifts a month to pad my wallet.

They probably get rid of me soon when they find someone who can do the job cheaper. I'd miss the pay but not the job.

The really good really high paying jobs don’t advertise that they are good or high paying. They don’t need to.

I know a guy who made 180k in a month. He worked a lot. Sdg on the west coast. Been there forever. Sustainable (for him) and a busy job but 180k in a month.

Avg partner in that group makes $1m +/- 200k.

In the end the advertised jobs are $160-250/hr. Better jobs are out there but word of mouth only.