MD Heard a rumor that Step 1 (and maybe Step 2 CK) may change from scores to P/F. Is that true?

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Lol if you want to purposely ignore what I’m saying because it doesn’t fit what you want to think, then sure.

I think what he is trying to say is that even though 496 is the minimum to get an interview, you might get judged based on your score if your evaluator can see it pre-II. I’m very surprised that there is a med school out there that gives automatic interviews based on certain criteria :confused:

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I think he means to say it’s MCAT blind as long as you get a 496?

I would, however, argue that it’s not MCAT blind if an evaluator can see the score, even if they’re told not to consider it, because there might be unconscious bias.

There is one group who decides if you interview. I believe they see your score. The threshold is 496 for an interview. If you meet that number you will get an interview if your GPA meets the minimum, you have clinical experience, and you have good ECs. I know people with 510s who didn’t get an interview and multiple people with 496-500s who did. The MCAT is used as a minimum competency.

Once you are invited for an interview, your MCAT is blacked out if it is a 500+. The people who evaluate your app after the interview are different people and have never seen your score. They are the ones who decide if you get in.

I am sure that having a high MCAT will help you get an interview. But they do not reject pre-II based on MCAT if it’s above 496.

Obviously this isn’t true p/f but it’s pretty close and certainly a lot closer than any other school afaik. I know plenty of people who go here with 498-505 MCATs. I also know people with 99th %ile MCATs. *shrug*
 
I went through the match for surgical subspecialty this year and trust me if you're from a low/middle tier school appyling a surgical sub, you DEFINITELY do not want the match to be dependent only on school reputation/"networking" & "connections." you're going to have a bad time without step 1/2.

everybody want to be a bodybuilder but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights.
Yup.
 
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I think what he is trying to say is that even though 496 is the minimum to get an interview, you might get judged based on your score if your evaluator can see it pre-II. I’m very surprised that there is a med school out there that gives automatic interviews based on certain criteria :confused:

It’s not automatic. I know people with good MCATs who didn’t get interviews because they didn’t have good apps. It’s just that a low MCAT isn’t going to keep you from interviewing if you have a good app. If it’s a 496 and you have an otherwise good app, you’ll get an interview. You might not get in with a 496 because they will see that score, but if it’s a 500 the committee will have no idea what your actual score is. That’s my point. The MCAT is not looked at as more than a competency check.

Didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Was just responding to your question. We can drop it.
 
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It’s not automatic. I know people with good MCATs who didn’t get interviews because they didn’t have good apps. It’s just that a low MCAT isn’t going to keep you from interviewing if you have a good app. If it’s a 496 and you have an otherwise good app, you’ll get an interview. You might not get in with a 496 because they will see that score, but if it’s a 500 the committee will have no idea what your actual score is. That’s my point. The MCAT is not looked at as more than a competency check.

Didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Was just responding to your question. We can drop it.

I think what I’m trying to say is that if the pre-II evaluators can see the score, it’s not MCAT blind (simply by definition).

What you seem to be describing, however, is a committee that does not put emphasis on the MCAT, which is not the same as being score blind.

However, I do agree that this isn’t worth any further discussion.
 
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I think what I’m trying to say is that if the pre-II evaluators can see the score, it’s not MCAT blind (simply by definition).

What you seem to be describing, however, is a committee that does not put emphasis on the MCAT, which is not the same as being score blind.

However, I do agree that this isn’t worth any further discussion.

Yes I get what you’re saying and agree. :thumbup:
 
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I enjoyed our professional and productive debate :)

Lol I think it was mostly just a difference in terms. I said it’s pretty much treated as p/f which set up an expectation that was different from what I meant. No big.

But the point is the same, and I can see why people would not want step to be p/f. Having the committee not be able to see my MCAT score hurt me. If step is p/f they will put emphasis on other stuff, and it might not be things entirely under your control (eg, school rep). I can see why someone from a lower ranked school or who may not be pulling Hs might want to stand out with a stellar step score.
 
and it might not be things entirely under your control (eg, school rep).

You mean so the MCAT would be even more important. And on and on and on

There will always be a measuring stick and if MedEd wants to do away with the current measuring system it will flow downhill to even more useless measurements. Take away STEP, and the MCAT is that much more important. Take the MCAT, SAT and undergrad rep. Soon you'll have to have celebrity parents to get into med school.
 
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Lol I think it was mostly just a difference in terms. I said it’s pretty much treated as p/f which set up an expectation that was different from what I meant. No big.

But the point is the same, and I can see why people would not want step to be p/f. Having the committee not be able to see my MCAT score hurt me. If step is p/f they will put emphasis on other stuff, and it might not be things entirely under your control (eg, school rep). I can see why someone from a lower ranked school or who may not be pulling Hs might want to stand out with a stellar step score.

I actually wonder if some residency programs might consider looking at MCAT scores if the step becomes p/f?

It seems ridiculous and irrational and probably won’t happen given that the MCAT by no means is a test of medical knowledge. But people said the same thing when rumors first went around that Apple is getting rid of the headphone jack!

The only thing that it will do is give program directors a way of initially stratifying applications, which seems crucial to the efficiency of the evaluation process.

If by some chance this does pass and program directors no longer have a way of cutting out half their applicant pool instantly, I also wonder if the whole application process will become longer to give PD’s a longer time to evaluate applications. ERAS might open earlier and match day might get pushed to April or May? Who knows?

Ok i’m getting too far into “what ifs” so I’m gonna stop LOL
 
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I actually wonder if some residency programs might consider looking at MCAT scores if the step becomes p/f?

It seems ridiculous and irrational and probably won’t happen given that the MCAT by no means is a test of medical knowledge. But people said the same thing when rumors first went around that Apple is getting rid of the headphone jack!

The only thing that it will do is give program directors a way of initially stratifying applications, which seems crucial to the efficiency of the evaluation process.

If by some chance this does pass and program directors no longer have a way of cutting out half their applicant pool instantly, I also wonder if the whole application process will become longer to give PD’s a longer time to evaluate applications. ERAS might open earlier and match day might get pushed to April or May? Who knows?

Ok i’m getting too far into “what ifs” so I’m gonna stop LOL

Yeah I have no idea. If it passes then it passes and we just have to deal with it. Whinging on SDN isn't going to change it.
 
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I actually wonder if some residency programs might consider looking at MCAT scores if the step becomes p/f?

It seems ridiculous and irrational and probably won’t happen given that the MCAT by no means is a test of medical knowledge. But people said the same thing when rumors first went around that Apple is getting rid of the headphone jack!

The only thing that it will do is give program directors a way of initially stratifying applications, which seems crucial to the efficiency of the evaluation process.

If by some chance this does pass and program directors no longer have a way of cutting out half their applicant pool instantly, I also wonder if the whole application process will become longer to give PD’s a longer time to evaluate applications. ERAS might open earlier and match day might get pushed to April or May? Who knows?

Ok i’m getting too far into “what ifs” so I’m gonna stop LOL
p/f step1 is the equivalent of airpods
 
You mean so the MCAT would be even more important. And on and on and on

There will always be a measuring stick and if MedEd wants to do away with the current measuring system it will flow downhill to even more useless measurements. Take away STEP, and the MCAT is that much more important. Take the MCAT, SAT and undergrad rep. Soon you'll have to have celebrity parents to get into med school.
No PD in the world is going to give a rat's ass about the MCAT. It will behoove you guys well to stop thinking like pre-meds.
 
No PD in the world is going to give a rat's ass about the MCAT. It will behoove you guys well to stop thinking like pre-meds.

Without STEP the only way you have a shot in hell at ever standing out is to go to a top school with top connections. The MCAT is now indirectly the only tool of differentiation between students applying to residency. GME can flounder on this topic all they want, the correlation of specialty board pass rate and STEP is there, and PD's want top students that don't put their program on probation for failing boards.

GME can day dream about everyone being equal all they want but there will be a tool of measurement somewhere, and without STEP the MCAT is it.
 
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Without STEP the only way you have a shot in hell at ever standing out is to go to a top school with top connections. The MCAT is now indirectly the only tool of differentiation between students applying to residency. GME can flounder on this topic all they want, the correlation of specialty board pass rate and STEP is there, and PD's want top students that don't put their program on probation for failing boards.

GME can day dream about everyone being equal all they want but there will be a tool of measurement somewhere, and without STEP the MCAT is it.
I don't even know where to begin with this.

Why not just do SAT?
 
rip any student from outside top USMD applying to competitive specialties like neurosurg, plastics, etc... Research/networking and LORS are strongly dependent on the medical school of the student, not so much on the student themselves. Auditions can be very hit or miss experience depending on the away institution. I feel really really bad for future residency applicants with a Pass/Fail Step 1.
Patently incorrect. You fail to comprehend the underlying system of systems. The macro-machine still needs a workforce .
 
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it's an arms race, the only thing changing is the weapon

Step 2 will get crazy if step1 goes p/f and if that goes p/f get ready for something else to get absurd
Nature abhors a vacuum.
 
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idk. our dean is preaching how this is such a great thing for education; internally I am wondering why she hasnt thought through how such a change is screwing every student in the US other than the harvard/hopkins students.

One of my old attendings did a graph of the average step 1 score by school compared to the USMLE rank. Turns out, those who go to higher ranked schools tend to do better on Step 1.
If step 1 is p/f, the smart people will just do better on step 2 ck by focusing more on it. Maybe even from beginning of second year and study for it alongside step 1.
People love step 2 ck because the average is 240 (too lazy to check), so they think they did better on it than step 1. But the reality is most 230s on step 1 that become 240s on step 1 are the same percentiles. The score just looks higher. No doubt step 2 ck is much easier to study for which also makes it a more attractive test to some people. I did get concerned reading this initially but as long as there is 1 standardized test, it doesn't matter. The smart people will always stand out. The lazy, charismatic guy with a 205 on Step 1 but has family connections should never make it past the 250 hard working introvert (me). Hard work should always be rewarded.

You’re making this argument because you feel you should be rewarded for a high step 1 exam. Allow me to paint an alternative picture. (FWIW, I’m also an introvert).

I got a 219 on Step 1. I got a 258 on Step 2 (and studied for half the time). My in training exam (ITE) score my intern year of residency (and for reference, we take the ITE in July in my specialty, so this was literally 2 weeks after I started residency) was in the top 20% nationwide. My score both second and third year was above the passing cutoff (as in, had I taken boards that year, I would have passed). I passed boards with flying colors. I was also named a chief resident and did multiple projects during residency, one of which was considered fellow-Level by the fellowship directors who interviewed me for fellowship. My mentor in fellowship is already recruiting me to take over her position when I graduate in 2 years.

My score of 219 didn’t at all represent my ability to do well in residency, or how hard working I was. I am just much, much better at remembering things when I have stories (I.e. patients) to connect them. You may be quantitatively smarter than me, but just because someone scores well on Step 1 doesn’t mean that they are going to be a rockstar resident. And scoring below average on Step 1 doesn’t mean they will be a borderline resident. It’s a tool, but it’s not the whole picture.

Well how do you suggest they get through 500 apps for 2-3 spots? Its not perfect, but its the best thing we got. Why would you take someone who scores 220 over someone who scores 260? Its obvious the 220 had a poorer knowledge base. People should know how competitive things are and should keep that in mind when studying for step.

I don’t have a solution for filtering applications. But just because something is currently used doesn’t mean it’s the best tool there is and should be the gold standard. We should be striving to find a tool that allows us to select for the characteristics we want in residents. And scoring well on an exam might be one of those characteristics, but it should not be everything.
GME can flounder on this topic all they want, the correlation of specialty board pass rate and STEP is there, and PD's want top students that don't put their program on probation for failing boards.

Yes, PDs want to recruit people who can pass boards. But differentiating between a 230 and a 260 doesn’t mean that one is at a high risk of failing the boards while the other will pass—they are both likely to pass (both could also fail... I know a number of people who thought they were smart enough to take boards without proper studying...). So why not minimize the focus in that differentiation and ask that selection committees focus on things that will make one a good physician, not just a good test taker?
 
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Just another day feeling sorry for people starting medicine behind me. It seems to be a pathology of many doctors to need to “improve” things constantly, often to the detriment of future doctors. Doctors love to eat their young.

This is just another product of lots of education and intellect - without an ounce of wisdom.
 
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I don't even know where to begin with this.

Why not just do SAT?

I'm not sure how to make my point more clear. If scores are done away with and everyone just does everything P/F there is no way to differentiate the thousands of applicants PD's sift through to to interview for their 3-15 residency slots. If I am a PD with 2000 applicants with "Pass" on all the same useless metrics, I am filtering them from the top schools down and sending interviews that way. Which is exactly what will happen.

I have already taken all of these exams, matched, and don't really care anymore but the whole concept of this is ridiculous. There is no stronger motivator to learn the material tested on Step 1/2 than the pressure that comes with it. You can not replicate that in any other way. If it didn't matter if I got a 205 or 250 on Step I can assure you I would not have studied nearly as hard as I did and I wouldn't have the knowledge base I do.

But what do I know, I only took MCAT, COMLEX 1/2/PE, Step 1/2, and every NBME shelf exam available within the last 4 years. Then matched into the only specialty based on a standardized letter of clinical apptitude.
 
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If step 1 is p/f, the smart people will just do better on step 2 ck by focusing more on it. Maybe even from beginning of second year and study for it alongside step 1.

True... that would then become the stat that divides

People love step 2 ck because the average is 240 (too lazy to check), so they think they did better on it than step 1. But the reality is most 230s on step 1 that become 240s on step 1 are the same percentiles. The score just looks higher.

I recently met a student who scored low on Step 1 (around 207), but in his words, “ did so much better” on Step 2 since he scored in the mid 230s.
Yes, you’re right, the score just looks bigger. These students think that the higher step 2 score shows improvement, like an upwards trend GPA. That can be a real problem if the student’s residency app list is based on a belief that the applicant is stronger than he or she is.

No doubt step 2 ck is much easier to study for which also makes it a more attractive test to some people. I did get concerned reading this initially but as long as there is 1 standardized test, it doesn't matter. The smart people will always stand out. The lazy, charismatic guy with a 205 on Step 1 but has family connections should never make it past the 250 hard working introvert (me). Hard work should always be rewarded.
 
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My score of 219 didn’t at all represent my ability to do well in residency, or how hard working I was. I am just much, much better at remembering things when I have stories (I.e. patients) to connect them. You may be quantitatively smarter than me, but just because someone scores well on Step 1 doesn’t mean that they are going to be a rockstar resident. And scoring below average on Step 1 doesn’t mean they will be a borderline resident. It’s a tool, but it’s not the whole picture.



I don’t have a solution for filtering applications. But just because something is currently used doesn’t mean it’s the best tool there is and should be the gold standard. We should be striving to find a tool that allows us to select for the characteristics we want in residents. And scoring well on an exam might be one of those characteristics, but it should not be everything.


Yes, PDs want to recruit people who can pass boards. But differentiating between a 230 and a 260 doesn’t mean that one is at a high risk of failing the boards while the other will pass—they are both likely to pass (both could also fail... I know a number of people who thought they were smart enough to take boards without proper studying...). So why not minimize the focus in that differentiation and ask that selection committees focus on things that will make one a good physician, not just a good test taker?

You realize it is the program directors using Step 1 as a metric to judge students and not the other way around. If Step 1 is such a useless metric then it would be my assumption that PDs are intelligent enough to realize this and adjust their recruiting priorities accordingly.

Every year, the program director survey goes out (to the program directors) who rank Step 1 as their most important metric in interviewing applicants. In their quest to be the best residency applicant they can be, medical students focus on the most important aspects of their application. There is no student lobby group marching in DC pushing a Step 1 agenda. Residency selection committees have done this on their own and students responded accordingly.

I know mediocre scoring students who matched top EM programs because they are incredible clinically and EM has a system to reward these people. How about instead of just rage quitting Step 1 scores, specialties take the time to actually figure out a way to measure the intangible qualities they are looking for in a resident and reward students who excel in those categories
 
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One of my old attendings did a graph of the average step 1 score by school compared to the USMLE rank. Turns out, those who go to higher ranked schools tend to do better on Step 1.

Sure they do, but you're lumping all students together only according to school.

What about the students that decided to go to a lower-ranked school in the interest of cost? Those students rationalized the decision by saying "I'll just crush step 1 and the outcomes will be identical".

With this change, that will no longer be the case.

Have they now screwed themselves out of a competitive residency, because "People at higher ranked schools tend to do better on Step 1"?

I truly from the bottom of my heart do not like step 1 changing to p/f.
 
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What do you guys think about oral boards replacing STEP1? Assuming we could get over the logistical hurdles, at first glance oral boards with a scaled numerical score seem like the best of both worlds. Less cramming for testable minutiae and potentially more emphasis on clinical reasoning and communication. It would add more subjectivity to a system already full of complaints of arbitrariness, though.

Terrible idea imo, oral boards are the most subjective crap ever. It'd be a nebulous joke similar to the 2CS except graded instead of p/f making it even worse. Examiner doesn't like the cut of your jib? Low pass. Someone with exact same responses but dressed impeccably with flowing hair and jives well with the examiner? Honors!

Standardized multiple choice testing is the only way to get 100% unbiased, objective data that stratifies applicants across every medical school. There is literally nothing else in existence that can do that, and making USMLE pass/fail would turn residency applications entirely into a contest of school reputation, nepotism, and sucking up the most. Programs get 1000 applications for 10 spots, how do you think they are going to narrow that down to something manageable without any quantitative grades or step scores? Oh you're from Stanford/Ivy League School? Straight to the top even though you barely passed any of your exams but since it's p/f we can't see any of that! Oh you're from Generic Low Tier University? No interview for you even though you have a 260 because we can't see that score so we're going to assume you're a below average chump just like your medical school.

If you completely remove the only objective metric in residency applications, PDs will be forced to start stereotyping; whether it be based on your med school or other candidate characteristics. They will have literally nothing else to go off of. This seems very regressive and will emphasize and reward nepotism and privilege of those who have the right connections even more than they are already favored.
 
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Step 1 (of my master, super-creative bombastically titled plan-not to be confused with the standardized test): restrict # of applications so that you don't have to differentiate between a thousand applicants

This is similar to my biggest fix for residency apps: let programs see how many programs total you're applying too. Rewards people who apply to fewer places and gives applicants an honest way of telling programs, "You are important to me." This also gives programs better pre-screening in determining who to interview, instead of staring into this vague crystal ball and asking it "Is this person actually likely to come here?"
 
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I don't even know where to begin with this.

Why not just do SAT?


That is sort of his point exactly. People will continue to grasp for objective/standardized measures, to the point of absurdity.

You enjoy spiking the football in your own endzone on a routine basis it seems.
 
That is sort of his point exactly. People will continue to grasp for objective/standardized measures, to the point of absurdity.

You enjoy spiking the football in your own endzone on a routine basis it seems.

Why is it "absurd" to desire objectivity?
 
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Maybe it's time to just have the algorithm randomly assign people to residency programs regardless of performance, school, specialty choice or location preference. Welcome to the future.

 
Why is it "absurd" to desire objectivity?

Why would you think I said that when I didn’t?

I am very much against making Step I pass/fail, and I took the test nearly a decade ago.

What would indeed be absurd is to go back to something like the SAT or your middle school report card in this situation. Which is the kind of absurd measures it seems people would want to take (I’m being hyperbolic here) were Step I to become P/F.
 
To people saying there's a correlation between Step 1 score and board passage rates - it's a little disingenuous because you don't have to absolutely crush Step 1 to have a good chance of passing your boards in quite a few specialties. Dr. Carmody's blog at: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification notes that:
  1. Pediatrics - once Step 1 is over 210, you have about a 90% chance of passing the pediatrics boards.
  2. Internal Medicine - 99% of residents with Step 1 scores over 211 passed the IM boards.
  3. General Surgery - 85.7% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed on their surgery boards on their first try.
  4. Ob/Gyn - 100% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed their ob/gyn boards.
  5. Orthopedics - with Step 1 score of 205, 90% chance of passing ABOS Part 1 Exam (only residents with >50% chance of failing are those that failed Step 1 on first try).
  6. Anesthesiology - once Step 1 is over 210, >90% chance of passing the anesthesiology boards.
So sure, it's better to have some kind of metric to differentiate the thousands of applicants some programs get, but to say an applicant with a higher Step 1 score is more likely to pass their boards isn't entirely truthful. As you can see above in those specialties, once you hit certain thresholds--which happen to be on the lower side and below the average Step 1 score--you've got pretty good odds of passing your specialty boards. Is a 260 Step 1 impressive? No question. Are they just as likely to pass boards as someone that scored around average to even below average? That's what the data suggest.
 
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To people saying there's a correlation between Step 1 score and board passage rates - it's a little disingenuous because you don't have to absolutely crush Step 1 to have a good chance of passing your boards in quite a few specialties. Dr. Carmody's blog at: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification notes that:
  1. Pediatrics - once Step 1 is over 210, you have about a 90% chance of passing the pediatrics boards.
  2. Internal Medicine - 99% of residents with Step 1 scores over 211 passed the IM boards.
  3. General Surgery - 85.7% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed on their surgery boards on their first try.
  4. Ob/Gyn - 100% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed their ob/gyn boards.
  5. Orthopedics - with Step 1 score of 205, 90% chance of passing ABOS Part 1 Exam (only residents with >50% chance of failing are those that failed Step 1 on first try).
  6. Anesthesiology - once Step 1 is over 210, >90% chance of passing the anesthesiology boards.
So sure, it's better to have some kind of metric to differentiate the thousands of applicants some programs get, but to say an applicant with a higher Step 1 score is more likely to pass their boards isn't entirely truthful. As you can see above in those specialties, once you hit certain thresholds--which happen to be on the lower side and below the average Step 1 score--you've got pretty good odds of passing your specialty boards. Is a 260 Step 1 impressive? No question. Are they just as likely to pass boards as someone that scored around average to even below average? That's what the data suggest.
Cool stats, but I think the central argument is that PDs use Step 1 scores merely to filter candidates. For example, certain schools with a strict Step 1 minimum automatically reduce the number of residency applications to review from 2500 to say 250. I don't think it's about only selecting candidates that will pass boards.

So really, it seems as though making Step 1 P/F would not really help out PDs...it's more about making med school less stressful for med students, I think.
 
Cool stats, but I think the central argument is that PDs use Step 1 scores merely to filter candidates. For example, certain schools with a strict Step 1 minimum automatically reduce the number of residency applications to review from 2500 to say 250. I don't think it's about only selecting candidates that will pass boards.

So really, it seems as though making Step 1 P/F would not really help out PDs...it's more about making med school less stressful for med students, I think.

You're absolutely right that PDs use Step 1 scores to filter candidates. They can use a bunch of filters... Step 1 cutoffs, whether to consider IMGs or not, etc. It's an onerous process and it's not helped that people are applying to so many programs in the past 5-10 years.

And, having spoken to several PDs, there's definitely a concern that they want to select well-rounded residents who can pass boards, and Step 1 is a surrogate because there's too much variance across schools and curriculums. The truth of the matter is that the Step 1 is not being used the way it was intended, which was as a criterion-referenced test to ensure a level of competence for licensure, not to stratify applicants into varying tiers of competitiveness for different specialties.
 
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I suppose if Step 1 was originally designed to measure competency for a medical license, it really should be P/F.

Besides, that would make med school way less stressful for me! :D

I know some people don't like it because apparently it makes it so that people who don't have connections can't get into a top position...but medicine isn't exactly the most meritocratic field out there. Nepotism is within human nature.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean we can't do something to minimize it either, so I can see the argument for keeping Step 1 as is.

Perhaps limiting the number of residencies people can apply to is a good alternative, I'm not tryna take out extra loans just for residency apps and interviews...and then take out loans again to move to my new residency location...

oy-vey, what have I gotten myself into?

I think part of it too is the supply of residency spots and student demands for specialty...if there are 5000 applicants for 200 derm spots...well then everyone who is applying to derm should know what they're signing up for.

Like me, I have no interest in doing anything surgical or derm. I would be happy with psych or FM, maybe even IM or Peds. So the way I see it, I'm really chillin.

It's the people that are maturing Zanki in the summer before MS1 so that they can get into top-tier ortho, those are the students that are more stressed than they need to be...but it's their choice at the end of the day. No one is forcing them gun for derm, ortho, plastics, etc.
 
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To people saying there's a correlation between Step 1 score and board passage rates - it's a little disingenuous because you don't have to absolutely crush Step 1 to have a good chance of passing your boards in quite a few specialties. Dr. Carmody's blog at: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification notes that:
  1. Pediatrics - once Step 1 is over 210, you have about a 90% chance of passing the pediatrics boards.
  2. Internal Medicine - 99% of residents with Step 1 scores over 211 passed the IM boards.
  3. General Surgery - 85.7% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed on their surgery boards on their first try.
  4. Ob/Gyn - 100% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed their ob/gyn boards.
  5. Orthopedics - with Step 1 score of 205, 90% chance of passing ABOS Part 1 Exam (only residents with >50% chance of failing are those that failed Step 1 on first try).
  6. Anesthesiology - once Step 1 is over 210, >90% chance of passing the anesthesiology boards.
So sure, it's better to have some kind of metric to differentiate the thousands of applicants some programs get, but to say an applicant with a higher Step 1 score is more likely to pass their boards isn't entirely truthful. As you can see above in those specialties, once you hit certain thresholds--which happen to be on the lower side and below the average Step 1 score--you've got pretty good odds of passing your specialty boards. Is a 260 Step 1 impressive? No question. Are they just as likely to pass boards as someone that scored around average to even below average? That's what the data suggest.
there are ortho residents who failed step 1 on their first try??
 
Tell that to people forced into specialties they have no interest in. The ortho (or any other specialty) or bust crowd loses their mind. Im just glad I was interested in FM anyway. I like OB but I am really not even competitive enough for that anymore.

It sucks having your entire career outcome being dictated by an exam score.
I reiterate yet again that it seems that NBME doesn't care about your career aspirations, only that you are competent for Medicine.
 
This P/F change was made to the National Dental Board Examination for us tooth mechanics a few years back. PDs probably complained about the difficulty in ranking applicants for specialty residencies. So a few years after the change, the American Dental Association created a new scored exam that’s an abbreviated amalgamation of NBDE parts 1 and 2. How’s this system working out? I don’t know, but the ADA probably likes that extra $400 testing fee.

Big Hoss

Edit: I should have clarified that this new test, the Advanced Dental Admission Test, does not replace the NBDE. It’s in addition to it. Furthermore, the ADAT is not even universally required by specialty programs, which further muddies the waters.
 
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I reiterate yet again that it seems that NBME doesn't care about your career aspirations, only that you are competent for Medicine.

I know. That’s just how it works. Oh well
 
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There's a similar thread in the Pre-MD forum that's worth a read.

To people saying there's a correlation between Step 1 score and board passage rates - it's a little disingenuous because you don't have to absolutely crush Step 1 to have a good chance of passing your boards in quite a few specialties. Dr. Carmody's blog at: The Mythology of USMLE Step 1 Scores and Board Certification notes that:
  1. Pediatrics - once Step 1 is over 210, you have about a 90% chance of passing the pediatrics boards.
  2. Internal Medicine - 99% of residents with Step 1 scores over 211 passed the IM boards.
  3. General Surgery - 85.7% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed on their surgery boards on their first try.
  4. Ob/Gyn - 100% of residents with Step 1 scores over 200 passed their ob/gyn boards.
  5. Orthopedics - with Step 1 score of 205, 90% chance of passing ABOS Part 1 Exam (only residents with >50% chance of failing are those that failed Step 1 on first try).
  6. Anesthesiology - once Step 1 is over 210, >90% chance of passing the anesthesiology boards.
So sure, it's better to have some kind of metric to differentiate the thousands of applicants some programs get, but to say an applicant with a higher Step 1 score is more likely to pass their boards isn't entirely truthful. As you can see above in those specialties, once you hit certain thresholds--which happen to be on the lower side and below the average Step 1 score--you've got pretty good odds of passing your specialty boards. Is a 260 Step 1 impressive? No question. Are they just as likely to pass boards as someone that scored around average to even below average? That's what the data suggest.

Anytime this is discussed, this blog post comes up. I can only speak to the IM "facts" listed above. This is based upon a single residency program, in a single location, over 8 years. It's a huge step to extrapolate that to everyone. I can tell you that in my program, this is certainly not true. Also the minimum pass for S1 has been increasing, so a 211 10+ years ago may not be the same as one now. It's often also claimed that S1 doesn't correlate well with ABIM exams scores, but different people disagree on how much correlation is enough to be useful, and a poor S1 score --> poor ITE score --> remediation --> improvement --> improved ABIM score might explain some of the disconnect also.

I reiterate yet again that it seems that NBME doesn't care about your career aspirations, only that you are competent for Medicine.

This is certainly true. I met with them at AAIM week. They made it 100% clear that the USMLE was a joint project of the NBME and the FSMB, and it wasn't clear that anyone else had a seat at the table.

Overall, my thoughts:

1. There are a limited number of competitive spots. "Competitive" means that more people want them than spots available. PD's will need to make some sort of decision upon whom gets them. If S1 is made P/F, then PD's will latch onto something else. That shuffles the winners and losers -- some people will gain an advantage, some will lose. Whether this is "good" or "bad" depends upon how you look at the situation.

2. Creating score quartiles or ranges is similar. There will always be a cutoff -- one more point pushes you into the next category, that person is a "loser". If one less point drops you a category, you're a "winner".

3. People talk about USMLE cutoffs. The truth for most programs is probably much more flexible. For example, let's say my target S1 score is 250 (I'm making this up, it's an example!). I'd probably take everyone below a 230 and reject them -- they are not getting an interview regardless. For those 230 - 249, I'd review their app -- if something else in the app interests me, they might get an interview. So the difference of a point or five doesn't make a huge difference -- if you get a 229, you get rejected. If you have a 234 (5 points higher), I will look at your app but you'll still probably get rejected unless you have something amazing.

4. If S1 goes P/F, PD's will probably demand S2CK scores at the time of application.

5. If all Steps go P/F, my guess is that fields will create their own standardized exam you'll need to pay for and take. So now you'll have the steps, and a specialty specific exam. And, if you're interested in multiple fields, you'll need to take multiple exams. Perhaps this is better -- the exams can be targeted to the skills programs are interested in. You could be required to tie knots in a deep hole for GS. You'd (perhaps) also be able to retake these exams if you wanted to try to do better, although then you could do worse and there's no guarantee that programs would look at your "best" score.

There's no easy solution. Limiting applications has been discussed but seems unlikely. More realistically, you might get 10 "gold" apps, 10 "silver" apps, and then unlimited "bronze" apps. This would require some way for applicants to actually see how they "stacked up" to current residents in the program, so you know if you're "in the zone" or "a total reach". This then leads to an interesting question for programs -- would they rather have people with high scores but lower interest, or higher interest and lower scores.
 
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The more important question is...if Step 1 goes to pass/fail how else can we brag to each other on SDN about how smart we are?
 
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There's a similar thread in the Pre-MD forum that's worth a read.



Anytime this is discussed, this blog post comes up. I can only speak to the IM "facts" listed above. This is based upon a single residency program, in a single location, over 8 years. It's a huge step to extrapolate that to everyone. I can tell you that in my program, this is certainly not true. Also the minimum pass for S1 has been increasing, so a 211 10+ years ago may not be the same as one now. It's often also claimed that S1 doesn't correlate well with ABIM exams scores, but different people disagree on how much correlation is enough to be useful, and a poor S1 score --> poor ITE score --> remediation --> improvement --> improved ABIM score might explain some of the disconnect also.



This is certainly true. I met with them at AAIM week. They made it 100% clear that the USMLE was a joint project of the NBME and the FSMB, and it wasn't clear that anyone else had a seat at the table.

Overall, my thoughts:

1. There are a limited number of competitive spots. "Competitive" means that more people want them than spots available. PD's will need to make some sort of decision upon whom gets them. If S1 is made P/F, then PD's will latch onto something else. That shuffles the winners and losers -- some people will gain an advantage, some will lose. Whether this is "good" or "bad" depends upon how you look at the situation.

2. Creating score quartiles or ranges is similar. There will always be a cutoff -- one more point pushes you into the next category, that person is a "loser". If one less point drops you a category, you're a "winner".

3. People talk about USMLE cutoffs. The truth for most programs is probably much more flexible. For example, let's say my target S1 score is 250 (I'm making this up, it's an example!). I'd probably take everyone below a 230 and reject them -- they are not getting an interview regardless. For those 230 - 249, I'd review their app -- if something else in the app interests me, they might get an interview. So the difference of a point or five doesn't make a huge difference -- if you get a 229, you get rejected. If you have a 234 (5 points higher), I will look at your app but you'll still probably get rejected unless you have something amazing.

4. If S1 goes P/F, PD's will probably demand S2CK scores at the time of application.

5. If all Steps go P/F, my guess is that fields will create their own standardized exam you'll need to pay for and take. So now you'll have the steps, and a specialty specific exam. And, if you're interested in multiple fields, you'll need to take multiple exams. Perhaps this is better -- the exams can be targeted to the skills programs are interested in. You could be required to tie knots in a deep hole for GS. You'd (perhaps) also be able to retake these exams if you wanted to try to do better, although then you could do worse and there's no guarantee that programs would look at your "best" score.

There's no easy solution. Limiting applications has been discussed but seems unlikely. More realistically, you might get 10 "gold" apps, 10 "silver" apps, and then unlimited "bronze" apps. This would require some way for applicants to actually see how they "stacked up" to current residents in the program, so you know if you're "in the zone" or "a total reach". This then leads to an interesting question for programs -- would they rather have people with high scores but lower interest, or higher interest and lower scores.
Just wanted to say that I really appreciate your posts in general! They tend to be very well thought out and insightful. They add some great perspective.
 
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Haven’t read too many good ideas for changing the tests. What’s kind of laughable is that so many probably rocked their mcats and told everyone who put down the test “sucks to suck”. I’ve always been amazed that med school admissions were like “Sorry you got a 29. A 30 is competitive. Come back when you have 2 brain cells to rub together.” Not everyone even knew they wanted to go to med school. Or even what goes into making an app,

But there’s no reason for excuses at this point. Literally 100% of us knew we have to show up on step 1. Even if they’re was a better way to evaluate future physicians, the awesome ones would find a way to game that too.
 
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Haven’t read too many good ideas for changing the tests. What’s kind of laughable is that so many probably rocked their mcats and told everyone who put down the test “sucks to suck”. I’ve always been amazed that med school admissions were like “Sorry you got a 29. A 30 is competitive. Come back when you have 2 brain cells to rub together.” Not everyone even knew they wanted to go to med school. Or even what goes into making an app,

But there’s no reason for excuses at this point. Literally 100% of us knew we have to show up on step 1. Even if they’re was a better way to evaluate future physicians, the awesome ones would find a way to game that too.
Not just MCAT, undergrad GPA, high school GPA, every single test anyone ever takes since the start of schooling is what brought them to med school. But those things are OK, it's just the challenging step 1 that's the problem. Step 1 is the best and most fair way to stratify applicants. If you don't do well, you still have lots of specialities open for you. Do better after

There is nothing in else in medical school that comes close to step 1 in evaluating applicants in a practical manner. A close 2nd is away rotations which are already the norm for surgical subspecialties but they also come with bias and depend on where the applicant does the away rotations and whether the personalities match with the residents in the away rotation. A third are clinical grades which is fine with me since I got pretty much all honors in third year, but I don't think are necessarily the most accurate representation of a medical student's knowledge base. They can be gamed.

Extra curricular activities and leadership are the most useless crap that should not be used in any meaningful way to stratify applicants. Research also falls into that category except that a medical student needs to know how to do a project from IRB approval to manuscript (which most medical students don't do). Most medical students research consists of doing useless chart reviews and being a 3rd or 4th author which is meaningless and waste of time in terms of doing real research. Real research comes after doing the chart reviews which is analyzing that data, coming up with a research question, writing a manuscript and convincing people that your research is worthy to be published.
 
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Haven’t read too many good ideas for changing the tests. What’s kind of laughable is that so many probably rocked their mcats and told everyone who put down the test “sucks to suck”. I’ve always been amazed that med school admissions were like “Sorry you got a 29. A 30 is competitive. Come back when you have 2 brain cells to rub together.” Not everyone even knew they wanted to go to med school. Or even what goes into making an app,

But there’s no reason for excuses at this point. Literally 100% of us knew we have to show up on step 1. Even if they’re was a better way to evaluate future physicians, the awesome ones would find a way to game that too.
Agreed on this, 100%. Plus the resources for step are a million times better than the MCAT
 
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Step 2 CK.
I actually like Step 1 better because it's a more challenging test. But sure it doesn't really matter. Step 2 ck is an easier test and I am sure it won't change anything. The high step 1 scorers will be the high step 2 scorers.
 
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Not everyone takes it prior to the match. You would have to move that up so that everyone takes it. By doing that, we're in the same position as before

If Step 1 goes P/F and Step 2 CK retains numeric scoring, then everyone will take Step 2 CK well before the match.

Were that to happen, we would not be in the same position as before. The pre-clinical curriculum could be reclaimed as something other than 18-24 months of Step 1 prep. And preparing for Step 2 CK is currently better aligned with the normal daily activities of M3 students. Don't get me wrong, there would be unintended consequences, but it may be an improvement over the current situation.

InCUS is the third time the scoring system for Step 1 has been revisited, and it's important to understand why it was arranged. It isn't because Step 1 itself has changed - it's the same imperfect measure of basic science knowledge it was 5-10 years ago. What has changed is the environment, which has converted Step 1 from being an important event to one that is all consuming. A lot of the problem stems from over-application to residency programs, but there is little appetite for addressing that issue.
 
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