Having a kid

[ziggy-G]

Hello everyone! I would like to get everyones take on my problem. I have absolutely nothing to do with the medical profession, but my G/F is in nursing school. We plan on moving in together after her last semester and trying to live together for awhile. I have been dating her for 2 years now, and we are planning on tying the knot if living together works well. We get along very well, and I am crazy about her. I love her very much, and I think she is my soulmate. The problem I have is that she wants children, and I do not. I have seen what happens to people when they have kids, and it terrifies me. No time, no money, no freedom. I personally get the trapped deer-in-the-headlights feeling whenever she talks about children. We get along great except for that issue. We have almost broken up over that issue on several occasions, but I have always managed to bring the broken pieces back together. She says that she will be alright if we do not have children, but I can see that it really bothers her. Call me mean, but I cannot stand the thought of having children in my life. I want to spend all of my time with her, not most of it raising a kid. I feel that I am not good father material. I am worried that if we do get married that she is going to resent me for not having children. Also, if we have an oops, she is adamant (sp?) about not terminating the pregnancy (her beliefs). If that happens, I would probably flip out. Do you think that a marriage is feasable? The only reason that we are still going out is that I told her that in 10 years, I will reasess the situation, and maybe we will. What do you think about my situation?

-Trapped in the midwest

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[younghorses]

Well obviously you are looking for opinions by the sound of your question, and not some kind of objective commentary. I can tell you that your marriage will not be successful if you cannot agree on this one issue.

If you absolutely refuse to have a child (or participate if there is an "oops" as you call it), and your girlfriend refuses to go her entire life without having children, you will NOT make it. Plain and simple. Don't waste your time together if both of you are unwilling to compromise.

 

[ziggy-G]

Will I ever change my mind about having children? I do not know if this is a common issue among young men. Will the so called 'biological clock' ever kick in? Right now I am very firm about not having children.

 

[HollyJ]

As much as you may love someone, it's essential to have a shared vision of the future if you're going to be married. Kids are maybe the single biggest thing that will influence the future. It sounds like you two are in very different places in terms of how you see the rest of your lives.

Please don't do this ten-year reconsideration thing. If you are really adamant about not having children, and if she really wants children, do the right thing and be honest about that.

Also, if you couldn't handle an oops and she is very clear about not terminating the pregnancy, you need to get out of the relationship before there is any further chance of an "oops" happening.

 

[StealthFille]

How old are you? I only ask because I have a LOT of friends in their early 20's who feel the same about children as you. They're terrified at the prospect of diapers and minivans and soccer practice. They don't want kids because then the "party's over". I also know people in their 30's who felt that way at 25 and then later decided they were ready for a family. (And a lot of these people are cool parents who bring up their kids their own way and make time to have their own life don't feel the need to fit the scary perfect-parent-mold.) And I know older people who never did have kids and that was the perfect choice for them.
All I'm saying is that just because you feel this way now doesn't necessarily mean you always will. You may, but you may not. And you don't have to make the choice now.
Why not start with moving in together, take it slow, see how that works out, and then discuss this again? You may decide you don't even want to marry her after all. If both of you continue to communicate openly with each other, things will work out for the best for both of you, whether you stay together or not.

 

[Teufelhunden]

I feel your pain, brother. I'm 32, wy wife 31, and we've been married for >6 years and have no kids.

A few years back this became a major issue, and our marriage was really "on the rocks" for a while. However, I asked for a "stay of execution" on the topic back in 1999, and she agreed. Basically I said, "Hey, we disagree now., but maybe I'll change my mind. Let's revisit the topic later on down the road."

Well, luckily for me, over the years her urge to have children has waned considerably, and I have remained adimantly anit-child. So, we're actually becoming more in agreement on the issue. So, the strategy of "putting it off" (the topic) worked for me. It also could have back-fired.

My reasons are similar to yours. Most of our friends have kids and their lives suck...seriously...they don't come out and directly admit: "My life sucks because I have little snot-nosed kids running around," but we can tell they're miserable. They're always complaining that they "Don't have any time to themselves," that they can "never go out," etc, etc.

In addition, they're always broke...kids are DAMN expensive!

For me, it's like this: I've busted my ass for years...6 years in the Marines, 4 years of college, now I'm an MS-III in medical school. When I finally graduate from residency and have some time and money, I want to be able to enjoy it!

My wife and I have never really had the chance to do much world travel....we both have interests we've never had time to pursue because of school/work. I look forward to a time in my life when I have the free time and financial freedom to start doing the things I've always wanted to do. Having kids would utterly destroy that dream. Parenting is HUGE responsibility!

The way I look at it, when I'm done with residency, I want to be able to come home after a days' work and do whatever the hell I want. If that means meeting my wife out for dinner every night of the week, then so be it. The last thing I want to have to do is drive to day-care, pick up the screaming brats, come home, feed them, get them to brush their teeth, bathe....the list of crap you have to do goes on and on...

Call me crazy...but after years and years of sacrifice, I want to be able to relax and actually ENJOY my free time.

Plus, last I heard, there's no shortage of kids in the world...so no harm done in my not propogating.

Sorry for the rant...my advice...don't be pressured into having kids if you don't want them...it's not fair to you or the kids.

 

[Elysium]

As a 30 year old woman, I can see where Teufelhunden is coming from. I've seen the tragedy and the joys of my married friends' kids and I've really had a debate about what I'll personally do in the future.

It's totally a personal choice and I DO think that people change as they get older. I think I've come to the conclusion that I want to have children (I actually like some of them, but I'm NOT one of those "oh my god, that baby is so cute!" kind of chick), but on my terms and with someone who is supportive and who wants to be a dad.

I think children are a huge sacrifice (I suppose current parents could testify to this), one that you should never be forced into. Never say never. Both of you might change your minds.

 

[ziggy-G]

Well, we discussed it seriously last night. My take is that I do not want to make the commitment to children. I WANT TO LIVE FOR CHRISSAKES! Like the guy said in the previous post, I have been in school for 16 years, and I would like a break without children. On the other hand, I can completely understand where my G/F is coming from. Most girls do want kids. I can understand that she wants to hold her own bundle of joy. She is in the ped's part of her clinicals right now, and the urge for a child has really kicked in, making my life difficult. She said she would be fine not having kids, with much regret. She told me that if she did, she was afraid that I would hate her or leave her. I do not know if I want to be a party to having an oops. Once again, discussion, with no answers.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wifty]

This is a MAJOR area where the two of you should agree.....or you will never be able to have a completely close relationship because there will always be the hurt on one of your parts.
Seeing a good relationship go down the tubes would be a very hard thing to deal with and recover from.

That said, I met my soulmate at 27 and both of us didn't actually want children because we wanted to have our spare time be for each other.
However, a couple years later after getting married, we started thinking that it would be nice to maybe have a child. So, it IS possible to change your perspective - but you shouldn't count on it!
Then, I had physical problems and it looked like we wouldn't be able to have children - there is no guarantee and your girlfriend should also realize that.

Now, I am expecting our one and only in 4 weeks and we are both excited about it.

There is NO way I would have had children before this (I am 33 now). I wanted to have freedom and fun. However, being with my soulmate, I want to also share what we have with our child.

This is simply right for us now but being soulmates, having a child is an extra.....not a necessity because we have one another.

So, that probably didn't help. But I just thought I would give you the perspective from one that didn't want children, and is now having one.

Good luck!!!!
Wifty

 

[younghorses]

Wow, those of you who see parenting as all of the things mentioned in the above posts such as "snotty nosed brats taking up my precious time" should not even consider having children and we would all be grateful if you tried your hardest to prevent parenting from happening to you. Also, it would be in your best interest to say in such vivid details, all the above mentioned to your significant other to make sure they know EXACTLY where you stand.

It would be best not to waste your S.O.'s time in a relationship if you both feel strongly. And don't expect someone to change their minds. That is RARE. Neither of you will be happy if you can't decide on this together. All other PRIORITIES in your life may very well stem from this one decision.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by younghorses
Wow, those of you who see parenting as all of the things mentioned in the above posts such as "snotty nosed brats taking up my precious time" should not even consider having children and we would all be grateful if you tried your hardest to prevent parenting from happening to you.

Oh believe me, "prevention" is my middle name. Not only is my wife on OCP, but whenever possible at work I "pretend" to "forget" my lead vest whenever we're doing Xrays

Originally posted by younghorses
It would be best not to waste your S.O.'s time in a relationship if you both feel strongly. And don't expect someone to change their minds. That is RARE.

Well, you're probably right about it being rare. However, 4-5 years ago my wife wanted kids really bad, and we faught vehimently over the issue. I somehow convinved her to give me a "stay of execution" on the issue, i.e. she agreed to postpone the discussion for a few years. Well, now it's years later and she's almost 90% anti-kid...she's fairly certain she doesn't want kids now (perhaps years and years of wispering to her while she's sleeping: "Kids are evil...kids are bad...pregnancy is painful...kids will break your heart..." <-- maybe that worked after all!

People do change their minds. I don't think disagreement on this issue has to be a deal-breaker in a relationship.

 

[smc927]

Whether or not to have children is indeed a major decision. Definitely worth talking about and working through. For what it is worth - if you ever do reconsider whether or not you have children - I'm in my mid twenties with a two-year-old daughter. Seeing others deal with children (especially the ones you pass screaming in the grocery store) is so much different than dealing with your own. The shrill scream of excitement from a toddler is enough to raise the blood pressure at times, but from my own daughter it is different. She is hard to deal with at time, but she is so much fun - and such a miracle to watch grow - I will never regret having her! <br>
Either way - good luck to you. I'm glad to read that you are so dedicated to your girl.

 

[commymommy]

Choosing to have a child is really a very personal decision that you and your significant other will need to agree on. My honest opinion is that if you are unable to agree on this issue that the relationship won't last...in other words, I don't see a successful marriage in your future...sorry! Teufelhunden and his wife have been able to reach a good understanding on this issue, but many people in this same situation do end up with a spouse who feels pressured and another who feels privately quite angry and resentful.

It's too bad that you all feel so strongly about the 'snot-nosed kids'. My husband and I also spent our entire lives in school....he added 8 years of residency and fellowship to his schooling on top of it all.

We just had baby #4 and though we do have less one on one time, we have a very, very happy and fulfilling life together. Our house is always active...always busy...full of voices and laughter...and yes, sometimes snotty noses and sassy talking back...but we take it all in stride. For us, there is no greater gift. Only on really bad days do we throw up our hands and say "what the hell were we thinking" and most of our friends would argue that we are both happy people and happy parents. What do you think happens to people when they have kids? Sure, there are the bad days...even bad weeks sometimes.....but you'll have bad days at work...even in your relationship or marriage without children....

If your girlfriend feels strongly about having a baby, she is likely sticking it out on the chance that you will change your mind.....that is neither fair to you or to her.
Sorry to be the a breath of negativity.

kris

 

[Teufelhunden]

I posted this on another thread and thought it would be appropriate here:

Recently, after hearing the authors (mother & daughter) interviewed on NPR, I read the book The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke. Here's an excerpt:

"Our research eventually unearthed one stunning fact. The families in the worst financial trouble are not the usual suspects. They are not the very young, tempted by the freedom of their first credit cards. They are not the elderly, trapped by failing bodies and declining savings accounts. And they are not a random assortment of Americans who lack the self-control to keep their spending in check. Rather, the people who consistently rank in the worst financial trouble are united by one surprising characteristic. They are parents with children at home. Having a child is now the single best predictor that a woman will end up in financial collapse."

click --> here <-- to read online excerpt.

I have to admit, when I first read this I was pretty shocked. With the overabundance of financial advice floating around out there, you'd think that someone whould share this fact: that children are the #1 detriment to your financial future.

I'm not saying people should stop having kids; I'm saying people should be fully aware of the enormity of the financial strain they're going to bear.

More from The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke:

"A family with children is now 75 percent more likely to be late on credit card payments than a family with no children. The number of car repossessions has doubled in just five years. Home foreclosures have more than tripled in less than 25 years, and families with children are now more likely than anyone else to lose the roof over their heads."

Simply stated, having children is one of the worst financial moves you could ever make. You're essentially committing to variable monthly payments for a duration of at least 18 years (and possibly more if they go to college). In addition, having children also usually prevents one or both parent(s) from furthering their careers as the responsibilities of parenting can prevent parents from dedicating the same amount of time towards career-advancement as their single colleagues.

Well, I've ranted enough. Stay tuned to future post where I address the "time sink" aspect of children. I have to admit, the time-loss associated with children scares me more than the financial doom. After putting in grueling hours at the hospital I want to come home to "my time," i.e. I wan't to enjoy my limited free-time. For my wife and me, that means going out to dinner with my wife on a Tuesday, enjoying a few cocktails after work with friends, going to the gym, taking night classes, traveling...all the stuff most couples with children can't do.

Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference in your paradigm: DINKs view life as a journey of self fulfillment, hence wanting to use free time to pursue other interests, e.g. master a classical guitar piece, run a marathon, learn a new language, go back to school and earn another degree, etc, etc. Also, some parents seem to almost brag about the sacrfices of parenting, proudly wearing their parent-status as a badge of courage. Well, sorry...but I've sacrificed enough in other areas of my life...I don't feel this overwhelming urge to add more sacrifice and hardship to my life.

The DINK lifestyle is the way to go for us. Although many people would label DINKS as selfish, the word "selfish" is defined as "concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others."

That last phrase, "without regard for others," is what excludes DINKS from that definition, as there are no "others" in the family to exclude. The true definition of "selfish" appropriately describes couples (or individuals) who although they don't have sufficient time or money to be effective parents, still have children anyway, in order to fulfill some inner desire to have children.

In fact, having children is explicitly a selfish act, as the yet-to-be-born child is certainly not requesting to be born...no, but rather people have children in order to fulfill their desires for children.

Sorry for the book...I have lots of opinions on this subject

 

[StealthFille]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
I

Simply stated, having children is one of the worst financial moves you could ever make. You're essentially committing to variable monthly payments for a duration of at least 18 years (and possibly more if they go to college). In addition, having children also usually prevents one or both parent(s) from furthering their careers as the responsibilities of parenting can prevent parents from dedicating the same amount of time towards career-advancement as their single colleagues.

Well, I've ranted enough. Stay tuned to future post where I address the "time sink" aspect of children. I have to admit, the time-loss associated with children scares me more than the financial doom. After putting in grueling hours at the hospital I want to come home to "my time," i.e. I wan't to enjoy my limited free-time. For my wife and me, that means going out to dinner with my wife on a Tuesday, enjoying a few cocktails after work with friends, going to the gym, taking night classes, traveling...all the stuff most couples with children can't do.
Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference in your paradigm: DINKs view life as a journey of self fulfillment, hence wanting to use free time to pursue other interests, e.g. master a classical guitar piece, run a marathon, learn a new language, go back to school and earn another degree, etc, etc. Also, some parents seem to almost brag about the sacrfices of parenting, proudly wearing their parent-status as a badge of courage. Well, sorry...but I've sacrificed enough in other areas of my life...I don't feel this overwhelming urge to add more sacrifice and hardship to my life.
In fact, having children is explicitly a selfish act, as the yet-to-be-born child is certainly not requesting to be born...no, but rather people have children in order to fulfill their desires for children.

Okay, listen. I understand that society can be pretty harsh on childless by choice couples. And there is nothing wrong with choosing to not to have kids. Nothing.
But you are NOT superior to people who do choose to have kids. Nope, you're NOT. Be with that for a moment, please.
I understand that people get defensive when their choices aren't universally accepted, and I also agree with you that it is ridiculous for people to say childless people are selfish.
But by this vicious, STUPID attack on people who do have kids, you are lowering to the level of the same people who call YOU selfish. You are being NO DIFFERENT from them.
Having children is not selfish, or financial suicide. It won't keep you from running a marathon, or traveling. It is not necessarily a sacrifice. (In fact I can name about 50 people who would say training for said marathon is a bigger sacrifice.) For many people, raising a child well is the ULTIMATE self-fulfillment. Your post is a reactionary piece of drivel.
If you don't want other people to slam your choices, don't slam theirs. BASIC respect.
What is a reproductive system for if having kids is so freaking awful?
If you don't have enough self confidence in your choice that you don't have to be nasty to those who choose differently, I highly doubt that you ARE comfortabe with not having kids.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by StealthFille
But you are NOT superior to people who do choose to have kids. Nope, you're NOT. Be with that for a moment, please.

Whoa! When did I ever say I was superior to those who have kids? I never said nor implied that? I apologize if that?s what you read into my post. I certainly didn?t mean to convey that message. I respect each individual?s choice in this matter. To each his/her own, I say.

Originally posted by StealthFille
Having children is not selfish, or financial suicide.

I?m sorry you read ?selfish? as having a negative connotation. My only point was, that the desire to have children is self-serving, in that it only serves the interests and desires of the parents. Just because it is self-serving doesn?t mean it?s bad. Buying a new plasma screen TV is self-serving, but not necessarily bad. Hell, starting an exercise program is self-serving, and definitely not bad. My only point was that having children serves the interest of self.

As far as ?financial suicide,? yes I would agree that that is pretty strong language. I was only quoting a very well-referenced book that stated facts which demonstrated that having children is, in fact, financially detrimental. Again, the facts are clear:

"Our research eventually unearthed one stunning fact. The families in the worst financial trouble are not the usual suspects. They are not the very young, tempted by the freedom of their first credit cards. They are not the elderly, trapped by failing bodies and declining savings accounts. And they are not a random assortment of Americans who lack the self-control to keep their spending in check. Rather, the people who consistently rank in the worst financial trouble are united by one surprising characteristic. They are parents with children at home. Having a child is now the single best predictor that a woman will end up in financial collapse."

Does that mean that people shouldn?t have kids? Of course not. It just means that people need to definitely take this into account when they make the decision to have children. Few could argue the fact that many young couples have children far too early. It?s not only the parents? financial outlook that suffers, but more importantly the children who are brought into a home that is less than suited to support them.

Originally posted by StealthFille
It won't keep you from running a marathon, or traveling. It is not necessarily a sacrifice. (In fact I can name about 50 people who would say training for said marathon is a bigger sacrifice.)

Of course it won?t completely prevent you from doing these things. But the fact is, time is a limited resource, and with increasing demands of our professional lives, there is only so much time in the day, and when you add kids into the picture there is simply even less time, period?you can?t argue that, right? So, with less time, that means less time to pursue your personal goals and interests. For some people, that tradeoff is acceptable. Hell, some people desire that tradeoff as their personal goal IS to be a parent, and that is wonderful and I respect that.

What I was trying to say, is that for some people, that tradeoff is too expensive. Myself, for example?.I have barely enough time now to do the things I like. In fact, I don?t have enough time now to do them all, and I don?t have any kids! My interests and hobbies require a lot of time?time I simply wouldn?t have if I were a parent.

Also, my wife and I are very familiar with the limitations imposed on couples with children as almost EVERYONE WE KNOW has kids! Let me tell you, these people simply can?t just up and decide to go out on a Wednesday night, know what I mean? The logistics are just too difficult. My wife and I like spontaneity ? the freedom to decide on a Friday afternoon to travel to another city for the weekend; the freedom to decide at 4:30pm on a Tuesday to meet after work for Sushi and a few beers; the freedom to sleep in until noon on any given Sunday. I?m sorry, but I don?t know any couples with children that enjoys these luxuries. Again, it comes down to the individual couple and what?s important to them. There?s no need to pass judgment either way; to each his own.

Originally posted by StealthFille
For many people, raising a child well is the ULTIMATE self-fulfillment.

I totally agree. I?ve seen people change entirely (for the better) after having children. In fact, I think some people are meant to be parents ? it just seems to natural to some people, whereas other people (like myself) seem to be almost allergic to children. Again, I apologize if I came across as ?slamming? the choice to have children. I honestly did not intend that. I simply wanted to state my case for not having kids, and to counter some of the accusations made against the choice to not have kids.

 

[younghorses]

I have found this discussion so far to be very interesting and thought-provoking.

I believe that my natural desire to have children is God-given and the best way for me to improve myself into becoming a more God-like person, is by experiencing the role of parent. There are, without doubt, certain attributes you cannot obtain without this experience. I also believe that it is only through feeling this incredible love for a child, that we can understand God's love for us. I think that sacrifice is an issue, but not the only one. When you begin to love someone else more than yourself... there is something to be said about that emotion and how it can change a person.

Sure there are a lot of bad parents out there, and there are a lot of bad kids too. Parents experience hardship, and have less money than they would without kids. But it all comes down to this: what is the purpose of life? If it is to fulfill your own desires and needs first, and then leave what's left to those around you? (I believe this is the meaning of selfishness).

I believe that you cannot grow spiritually, or fulfill your divine potential, without exercising some kind of unselfishness and complete love for something besides yourself. No books you read or talents you pursue can bring about a change in your heart that having a child can bring to you if you work on it and attempt to promote this attribute within yourself.

If you feel you never want to have children, then don't. If you already have children, be sensitive not to brag to or belittled those who don't. Everyone has their own opinions on the matter- and it is a personal one- but each side should consider this: when you are lying on your death bed, who will be there with you and what will you say you wished you had done differently?

If you believe that at that time, you will feel no regrets, then you can live confident that the decision you made on this matter is the right one for you. And you won't have to try to convince everyone else that they're bad for choosing another way.

P.S. And I do not believe it is the act of having children that makes you poor. I believe it is the inability to manage money differently than your childless days or spending excessively on your children, that will dig you into a hole.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by younghorses
But it all comes down to this: what is the purpose of life? If it is to fulfill your own desires and needs first, and then leave what's left to those around you? (I believe this is the meaning of selfishness).

Listen...if I don't have kids, then there are no "those around you" for me to neglect. Why can't my purpose in life be to be a good husband to my wife, a good doctor to my patients, and a good owner to my pets? I am glad that you feel having children will bring you closer to God. I, however, am agnostic so I obviously can't relate to this reasoning. However, for you having children seems to be the right thing to do for your reasons, and I respect that.

Originally posted by younghorses
I believe that you cannot grow spiritually, or fulfill your divine potential, without exercising some kind of unselfishness and complete love for something besides yourself.

Again, I am not a spiritual person and do not believe in "divine" potential. However, I do believe we were all born with potential that should be fulfilled. It just happens that my potential happens to not include children.

As far as exercising some kind of unselfish and complete love for something besides yourself, that can be fulfilled in a multitude of ways WITHOUT children. For example, I love my wife completely and unselfishly. I love my nieces and nephew. Heck, I love all my close friends and family. Please don't insinuate that you can't experience "complete" love without having children, because I assure you...you can.

 

[saiyagirl]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Please don't insinuate that you can't experience "complete" love without having children, because I assure you...you can.

i think loving your children provides a different experience, one that's not duplicable through any other member of your family. doesn't make your love for your wife or nephews any less complete, just different.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by saiyagirl
i think loving your children provides a different experience, one that's not duplicable through any other member of your family. doesn't make your love for your wife or nephews any less complete, just different.

Okay. Loving a pet lizard is probably a unique experience not duplicable through anything else either, but I'm not gonna run out and do it just do I can say I've experienced it.

I'm sorry to respond so acerbically, but it bothers me when proponents of parenthood try to convince the rest of us that we're somehow "missing out" on some secret, unique experience that we'll NEVER understand unless we experience it for ourselves.

Well, let me tell you this, I've seen ditch diggers at work, and I can tell you I don't want to do it, although I've never experienced it myself.

Likewise, I've witnessed enough parents in action to know that I don't ever want any part of that.

Listen, my wife and I have both had friends with kids confide in us that, although they love their kids, that in retrospect they wish they wouldn't have had them. They regret the lost opportunities, the lost free time. They regret the de-emphasis of their own marriage that ultimately occurs when you have a whole bunch of kids.

They've admitted that parenting is work, and that now their life consisits of constant work....getting the kids off to school in the morning, working all day, picking up the kids from school, feeding them, helping them do their homework, getting them to bed...it's a constant unrelenting cycle. There are very few nights out alone. In fact, there almost is never quality time alone, just husband and wife. Having kids becomes an 18-year full-time job in addition to your full-time job. There's simply no time left for YOU....no time left for YOUR OWN NEEDS...FOR YOUR OWN FULFILLMENT.

Again, to each his own....but I plan to enjoy my life...dinners out, weekend get-aways with the wife, free-time to pursue other interests.

 

[saiyagirl]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Okay. Loving a pet lizard is probably a unique experience not duplicable through anything else either, but I'm not gonna run out and do it just do I can say I've experienced it.

I'm sorry to respond so acerbically, but it bothers me when proponents of parenthood try to convince the rest of us that we're somehow "missing out" on some secret, unique experience that we'll NEVER understand unless we experience it for ourselves.

Well, let me tell you this, I've seen ditch diggers at work, and I can tell you I don't want to do it, although I've never experienced it myself.

Likewise, I've witnessed enough parents in action to know that I don't ever want any part of that.

Listen, my wife and I have both had friends with kids confide in us that, although they love their kids, that in retrospect they wish they wouldn't have had them. They regret the lost opportunities, the lost free time. They regret the de-emphasis of their own marriage that ultimately occurs when you have a whole bunch of kids.

They've admitted that parenting is work, and that now their life consisits of constant work....getting the kids off to school in the morning, working all day, picking up the kids from school, feeding them, helping them do their homework, getting them to bed...it's a constant unrelenting cycle. There are very few nights out alone. In fact, there almost is never quality time alone, just husband and wife. Having kids becomes an 18-year full-time job in addition to your full-time job. There's simply no time left for YOU....no time left for YOUR OWN NEEDS...FOR YOUR OWN FULFILLMENT.

Again, to each his own....but I plan to enjoy my life...dinners out, weekend get-aways with the wife, free-time to pursue other interests.

thats totally fine, i wasn't saying you should experience it or anything. people should do what they feel is best for them.

 

[commymommy]

Teufelhunden,

It's too bad that your friends with children are so miserable. Having children is challenging and there are those times where we throw up our hands in exasperation but.....as an ID doc, my husband throws his hands up in the air on a regular basis as well. The 'dream' of the practice of medicine hasn't exactly matched up with the realities of lower incomes, higher uninsured populations, lower medicare payments, patients who can't afford drugs, lawsuits, incredible malpractice premiums, paperwork out the ass, unappreciative families, long hours, etc, etc. But he still enjoys what he does for the most part. I love teaching at the college level, but I can tell you that I have my moments....even my weeks...where I ask myself how I got where I am...where I wish I had taken a different path...because I get tired of gunners, grade-grubbers, butt-kissers, whiners, paperwork, etc. But at the end of the day, I am still passionate about science and working with students.....I really love teaching for the most part....but sometimes the bad days can be overwhelming. BTW, because I have children I work very, very part-time...and that is a sacrifice that I am proud to make for the sake of my children. When I was younger it was hard not to feel resentful when I saw my friends w/o children achieving professional successes, etc. But now the tables are turned. I am very slowly developing a respectable career that I will continue to slide into as my children get older and this phase of my life ends. As a matter of fact, the time that I have taken off now for my children has taken my career in new directions that I would have never imagined. I have found ways to be creative about maintaining my career. I am working on an MS in marine sciences in a distance learning format, I have developed several websites that are a source of joy for me but have also helped me to develop new skills/talents that will be marketable later. I have had the chance for growth and self-exploration that many of my contemporaries have not...My professional friends now have a different financial/career success, but more than 1/2 of them are now struggling with infertility after deciding that maybe there is more to life than just their careers and 'self-fulfillment'. It might have been hard at times for me to 'suck it up' and delay my own gratification...sure..I'd love to be a full-time faculty member doing my own research with my own lab.....BUT my time will come. For many of my friends...that time has past. I find that to be sad.

It is true that the free money that we have does tend to get spent on our children...but lets be clear...we live in a nice house, have two nice cars, have new furniture, a computer, 2 television sets and 2 VCRs, our kids go to good public schools as well as a private weekend german immersion school, we have a date night 3 nights a month...We are not behind on our bills and btw..parenthood is not an 18 year job...it is lifelong.

Do we travel less..yes. Could we have even MORE money to spend on ourselves for clothes, etc....YES. Wow...think of the Christmas that I could be having this year if only I didn't have kids. As it stands, I'm getting a $20 Atari game......but absolutely nothing brought my huband and I more joy than finding the screaming harry potter diary this weekend for my son as well as the fib finder for my daughter and a remote-controlled spiderman car for my preschooler.

There will also be no price tag, no paycheck that will match the joy we will feel as they open up these gifts on christmas morning.

In other words,money can't buy happiness for everyone...We also have time for self-fulfillment and sex, btw. As a matter of fact, we've been married for nearly 10 years and have a sex life that many of our friends without children would envy....having children actually has brought us closer together....

I'm glad that you all came to the decision that you did. It appears to be the right one for you. Being a good father and doctor is an admirable goal. For those of us who chose to have families....why don't you hold back on commenting about something that you only have second hand knowledge about. For us, being a good wife/husband and parent is an admirable goal. Our decision to have children is no more selfish than your choice not to. At least we are producing future workers for this country...future people to pay taxes to support our government's policies, our military, our social system (what's left of it), etc.

You and your wife will likely reap the benefits of my children in some form or another...The taxes that they will pay someday will support our military that protects you or fund the social security that you get, or may provide NIH grant money etc, etc. They will work someday in a company to help make it more productive or maybe one of my children will even be your doctor someday...helping you when you are sick...you never know.

If there are not those of us brave enough to have children...selfless enough to give up the "I" for the collective "we"of society, then there is also no future. It is the children being born now that will be paying for the 'war on terror' later....that will be working in the stores of the future, will be future doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists, pharmacists, etc. Without our children...there is no future.

kris

 

[commymommy]

Teufelhunden,

I'm curious. You keep saying "To Each His Own"....but if you really feel that way, why do you feel the need to consistently (in this thread and others) knock the idea of having children in a vehement way? You do not need to justify your decision to not have children. We can respect your choice...and would hope that you would simply respect ours as well.


I really have nothing else to add to this discussion so I'm going to let it go from here....I'd much rather use my time for myself in a way that brings me a little more enjoyment.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by mommd2b
Teufelhunden,

I'm curious. You keep saying "To Each His Own"....but if you really feel that way, why do you feel the need to consistently (in this thread and others) knock the idea of having children in a vehement way? You do not need to justify your decision to not have children. We can respect your choice...and would hope that you would simply respect ours as well.

I do respect your decision, and I apoligize if I ever suggested I didn't. Our society, of course, needs to procreate for the many reasons you mentioned above. However, luckily, there's no apparent shortage of kids, so our choice to not have kids certainly won't have a negative effect on society.

I've only gone on the defensive because others, on different threads, had suggested that living the DINK lifestyle was selfish, and somehow inferior to those who had children.

Again, we're all different and all have different priorities/goals in life. I respect and appreciate those differences, and only ask that people, in return, respect ours.

With that....this thread can die a peaceful death

 

[Teufelhunden]

Childless by choice can be a positive

Published November 7, 2003

When the U.S. Census Bureau speaks, I listen -- especially when it reports further evidence that the modern woman is turning into the old-fashioned man.

The most recent research to support this trend is that more women are deciding to forgo child-bearing in favor of maintaining their existing quality of life.

It might sound selfish, but anyone who has ever been to a four-star restaurant and has been subjected to a screaming Mimi can understand that there are places children do not belong. With the rise of double-income couples who can afford such child-excluding outings, it shouldn't be surprising that people are examining their reproductive options and wondering what's in it for them.

Traditionally, it has been the province of the male to waffle when faced with the responsibility of bringing up the youth of tomorrow. That isn't to say men have become less reticent about the life-altering prospect of parenthood.

I was reassured of this fact on a visit with married friends whose wives, they say, are pushing for babies.

"I've never been less turned on in my whole life," one of them claims. The idea that, as a married man, he's required to perform a reproductive function unnerves him a little.

It makes sense. Bringing youth into the world can seem like a surefire way to lose the rest of yours.

Whether that's true or not, I can't say because my child-raising experience has been limited to wrestling with feisty 3-year-olds, then slipping away for a nap while their parents clean up the mess.

While sour men may contribute to the growing number of childless women, a bigger reason is options.

The Associated Press reports that the latest numbers reflect the well-established trend of more women going to college and entering the work force, then delaying motherhood or deciding not to have children.

In fact, the number of childless women has reached a record high, according to recent census reports. Nearly 26.7 million women ages 15 to 44 are dismissing or postponing motherhood, a number that has grown nearly 10 percent since 1990, when 24.3 million women did the same.

I bet many of these women simply look at their lives and see no reason to change. They have careers and lifestyles they have carved out for themselves, and no biological urge is going to keep them in on a Saturday night.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Couples who can agree that their partnership is all they require for personal fulfillment exhibit a tremendous honesty. I personally would rather know a happy childless couple than a miserable couple that spawn like salmon.

While this trend may be disconcerting to some, I'm confident that the human race will continue.

Many of the women I know in their late 20s and early 30s either have babies or are deep into the planning stages.

It's refreshing to know that while their mothers may be pressuring them to have babies, society at large is not.

These days, friends and co-workers have more to worry about than whether other people are getting pregnant. That makes the decision to have children a very personal one -- as it should be.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by mommd2b
Teufelhunden,

It's too bad that your friends with children are so miserable. Having children is challenging and there are those times where we throw up our hands in exasperation but.....as an ID doc, my husband throws his hands up in the air on a regular basis as well. The 'dream' of the practice of medicine hasn't exactly matched up with the realities of lower incomes, higher uninsured populations, lower medicare payments, patients who can't afford drugs, lawsuits, incredible malpractice premiums, paperwork out the ass, unappreciative families, long hours, etc, etc. But he still enjoys what he does for the most part. I love teaching at the college level, but I can tell you that I have my moments....even my weeks...where I ask myself how I got where I am...where I wish I had taken a different path...because I get tired of gunners, grade-grubbers, butt-kissers, whiners, paperwork, etc. But at the end of the day, I am still passionate about science and working with students.....I really love teaching for the most part....but sometimes the bad days can be overwhelming. BTW, because I have children I work very, very part-time...and that is a sacrifice that I am proud to make for the sake of my children. When I was younger it was hard not to feel resentful when I saw my friends w/o children achieving professional successes, etc. But now the tables are turned. I am very slowly developing a respectable career that I will continue to slide into as my children get older and this phase of my life ends. As a matter of fact, the time that I have taken off now for my children has taken my career in new directions that I would have never imagined. I have found ways to be creative about maintaining my career. I am working on an MS in marine sciences in a distance learning format, I have developed several websites that are a source of joy for me but have also helped me to develop new skills/talents that will be marketable later. I have had the chance for growth and self-exploration that many of my contemporaries have not...My professional friends now have a different financial/career success, but more than 1/2 of them are now struggling with infertility after deciding that maybe there is more to life than just their careers and 'self-fulfillment'. It might have been hard at times for me to 'suck it up' and delay my own gratification...sure..I'd love to be a full-time faculty member doing my own research with my own lab.....BUT my time will come. For many of my friends...that time has past. I find that to be sad.

It is true that the free money that we have does tend to get spent on our children...but lets be clear...we live in a nice house, have two nice cars, have new furniture, a computer, 2 television sets and 2 VCRs, our kids go to good public schools as well as a private weekend german immersion school, we have a date night 3 nights a month...We are not behind on our bills and btw..parenthood is not an 18 year job...it is lifelong.

Do we travel less..yes. Could we have even MORE money to spend on ourselves for clothes, etc....YES. Wow...think of the Christmas that I could be having this year if only I didn't have kids. As it stands, I'm getting a $20 Atari game......but absolutely nothing brought my huband and I more joy than finding the screaming harry potter diary this weekend for my son as well as the fib finder for my daughter and a remote-controlled spiderman car for my preschooler.

There will also be no price tag, no paycheck that will match the joy we will feel as they open up these gifts on christmas morning.

In other words,money can't buy happiness for everyone...We also have time for self-fulfillment and sex, btw. As a matter of fact, we've been married for nearly 10 years and have a sex life that many of our friends without children would envy....having children actually has brought us closer together....

I'm glad that you all came to the decision that you did. It appears to be the right one for you. Being a good father and doctor is an admirable goal. For those of us who chose to have families....why don't you hold back on commenting about something that you only have second hand knowledge about. For us, being a good wife/husband and parent is an admirable goal. Our decision to have children is no more selfish than your choice not to. At least we are producing future workers for this country...future people to pay taxes to support our government's policies, our military, our social system (what's left of it), etc.

You and your wife will likely reap the benefits of my children in some form or another...The taxes that they will pay someday will support our military that protects you or fund the social security that you get, or may provide NIH grant money etc, etc. They will work someday in a company to help make it more productive or maybe one of my children will even be your doctor someday...helping you when you are sick...you never know.

If there are not those of us brave enough to have children...selfless enough to give up the "I" for the collective "we"of society, then there is also no future. It is the children being born now that will be paying for the 'war on terror' later....that will be working in the stores of the future, will be future doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists, pharmacists, etc. Without our children...there is no future.

kris

Absolutely phenominal!!!!

 

[commymommy]

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Childless by choice can be a positive

Published November 7, 2003

When the U.S. Census Bureau speaks, I listen -- especially when it reports further evidence that the modern woman is turning into the old-fashioned man.

The most recent research to support this trend is that more women are deciding to forgo child-bearing in favor of maintaining their existing quality of life.

It might sound selfish, but anyone who has ever been to a four-star restaurant and has been subjected to a screaming Mimi can understand that there are places children do not belong. With the rise of double-income couples who can afford such child-excluding outings, it shouldn't be surprising that people are examining their reproductive options and wondering what's in it for them.

Traditionally, it has been the province of the male to waffle when faced with the responsibility of bringing up the youth of tomorrow. That isn't to say men have become less reticent about the life-altering prospect of parenthood.

I was reassured of this fact on a visit with married friends whose wives, they say, are pushing for babies.

"I've never been less turned on in my whole life," one of them claims. The idea that, as a married man, he's required to perform a reproductive function unnerves him a little.

It makes sense. Bringing youth into the world can seem like a surefire way to lose the rest of yours.

Whether that's true or not, I can't say because my child-raising experience has been limited to wrestling with feisty 3-year-olds, then slipping away for a nap while their parents clean up the mess.

While sour men may contribute to the growing number of childless women, a bigger reason is options.

The Associated Press reports that the latest numbers reflect the well-established trend of more women going to college and entering the work force, then delaying motherhood or deciding not to have children.

In fact, the number of childless women has reached a record high, according to recent census reports. Nearly 26.7 million women ages 15 to 44 are dismissing or postponing motherhood, a number that has grown nearly 10 percent since 1990, when 24.3 million women did the same.

I bet many of these women simply look at their lives and see no reason to change. They have careers and lifestyles they have carved out for themselves, and no biological urge is going to keep them in on a Saturday night.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Couples who can agree that their partnership is all they require for personal fulfillment exhibit a tremendous honesty. I personally would rather know a happy childless couple than a miserable couple that spawn like salmon.

While this trend may be disconcerting to some, I'm confident that the human race will continue.

Many of the women I know in their late 20s and early 30s either have babies or are deep into the planning stages.

It's refreshing to know that while their mothers may be pressuring them to have babies, society at large is not.

These days, friends and co-workers have more to worry about than whether other people are getting pregnant. That makes the decision to have children a very personal one -- as it should be.

 

[younghorses]

It's kind of like, why do people get married?

You could just live together. When you think about it, there isn't much difference between two people exchanging rings and the same two people just being boyfriend / girlfriend. What is it inside of us (not all people, but most) that pushes even the commitment-phobic to pursue a marriage that has a more than 50% chance of ending prematurely?

It is the same with having children. Everybody knows about the chances of failure you're taking, the life changes you're making. But there must be something of value there to make us want to do it- through all the odds....

 

[smc927]

Originally posted by younghorses
It's kind of like, why do people get married?

You could just live together. When you think about it, there isn't much difference ...

Marriage is a contract. You don't just go to the bank, ask for a loan and just promise to pay it back. And you especially don't just stop paying when it gets hard. I don't mean to make marriage a simple contractual agreement - I believe it is a lot more. I believe eternity, symbolized by the wedding band, is the point here. You make the commitment - a real, long-term, for better or worse commitment. When it gets difficult, you figure it out and work together. Selflessness - thinking of the other before self- is what creates the love that brings two people together into deep devotion. Then they think about marriage. Selfishness is what destroys marriages. I sincerely believe that if people would look back to the days of their courtship, and the efforts made to woo and wow their love interest, they would see that marriage, even a decade into it, requires effort and selfless devotion to the other. And it can be even better than courtship because of the depth of the relationship that has developed.

 

[younghorses]

Um, I don't think you understood the post. My point was that deciding to have kids (the subject of this forum) is a lot like deciding to get married. Some people don't see the point. For others, it's the next level of deepening love and commitment- personally, and in a relationship. And it's a way to learn things about yourself and other people that is not possible without taking this "leap of faith".

 

[Runtita]

mommd2b, your last post is brilliant!

I chuckle when reading T$ comments, as my husband and I have good friends who are very self-centered and we sometimes comment about how they should never have children.

Well, OOPS! happened- one of these couples just had a baby and now they are learning a new definition of love. And it's amazing to see their metamorphosis from completely self-centered, free-spirited, stay-out-all-night career-is-#-1 people into the gentlest, most thoughtful and devoted parents who are now putting their child before everything. They really underestimated themselves.

If you don't want kids, then do your darnedest not to have them. If you REALLY don't want kids, then get fixed or don't have sex.

It makes me sad to read of your friends who wish they had never had children. I feel sorry for their kids, because children are so perceptive; they'll pick up on their parent's true feelings and could have a difficult time developing their own sense of self.

I guess a big difference between me calling a non-parent-by-choice selfish and someone like T$ calling any parent selfish is that the parent was childless once and knows what that was like. A non-parent doesn't know what it means to have children, to see the faces of your loved ones in the face of your child, to watch your child sleeping and KNOW that there is nothing anywhere as perfect as your child.

Being a good parent is more than making a great paycheck and paying into a college fund. It's more than buying the right house or sending your kid to the right schools. It's a responsibility that must be taken very seriously, to respectfully nurture and encourage small minds and hearts to fulfill their potential, to teach them to treat others with kindness and compassion, and always to be true to themselves.

If you are not willing to accept this great responsibility, more power to you for realizing this.

Every child should be a wanted child.

But you may be underestimating your own depths of selflessness.

 

[DrWuStar]

mommd2b, you are the best.

 

[younghorses]

Here! Here!

 

[commymommy]

Wow...thanks! This has made my day you guys!

kris

 

[mellybell]

Wow, interesting thread, and although I am chiming in WAY late here, I wanted to add my 2 cents and experience on this issue. IMHO I think that no one can expect to change a person on this issue. Nor can they go into a marriage expecting and hoping that their spouse will change their mind.....and this works both ways. I think this is a very fundamental issue and a HUGE one, and personally I can't imagine marrying someone who did not share my feelings about having a family. (maybe the number of children is a point of discussion, but not IF)

If it were me that didn't want children, I would be very wary of possibly entering into a marriage knowing the other person did. This is not an urge or feeling that goes away lightly I don't think. I would hate to feel nagged for the rest of my life to have kids when I made it clear in the beginning that I didn't want them.

Nor would I ever marry someone who didn't want kids if I strongly did. Not having been in that circumstance though, it is hard to imagine loving someone deeply and wanting to be with them for the rest of my life but not agreeing on that issue. Its tough.

As far as whether it is selfless or selfish to have children or not to, I don't think there is a clear line on that one. Sure it may be seen as selfish to fulfill ones OWN personal desires to have children, but speaking from the "trenches" here, NOTHING about being a parent is selfish. 99% of my day involves doing somthing for the kids whether directly or indirectly. Is it taxing on me? Sure, but it is more of a joy than I could have ever fathomed it being. Now, that is not to say that I don't know parents who have nannies who are essentially raising their children. DO I think that is selfish? Without a doubt. They have no energy to spend on their kids, nor do they feel like they want to get home from work to be with them. That is a crying shame.

So in the sense that there are those who can identify their desires NOT to have children, and resist socieites pressure, I comend you. It is doing everyone a favor, mostly the children you never have. As someone here posted, every child should be a wanted child. I don't think it makes one selfish for wanting the DINK lifestyle, I think it identifies to me that those individuals know themselves well and are living the life they want, just like those of us WITH kids.

Kids are tons of hard work, they are expensive and require so much devotion, energy, time and love if their parents want to do it right, and there are people out there (like me!) who love it.

I will say that I do know some couples who are BOTH in training and have kids, and I don't think it is fair to the children. One parent....fine, and if the other one works......fine, but not while still in training......I can't say that I have seen that work well.

But then again, to each his own, and if we all shared the same opinions, values and desires, the world sure would be a boring place.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Runtita
If you REALLY don't want kids, then get fixed or don't have sex.

This is some FUNNY **** !!!

Runita and Mommd2b, I think you guys are prusuing the wrong profession. Perhaps philosophy would be a better choice

 

[Runtita]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Runita and Mommd2b, I think you guys are prusuing the wrong profession. Perhaps philosophy would be a better choice

Thank you.

 

[k's mom]

Just can't hold my tongue on this one. Although I am very disturbed and somewhat offended by many of the comments on this thread, I am perfectly content with my decision to have children and be married, so I have no need to defend my lifestyle decision. My personal belief is that if you are truly content with your choices, you have no need to defend your position, or denigrate the choices of others, so....well, just something to ponder for those of you so quick to offer your 2 cents on how "horrible" parenting is.
Now, for those of you, again, who are anti-child rearing, or anti-any-lifestyle-choice for that matter, consider your relationship with your significant other. When you moved in together, or got married, how did your friends and family react? Or better yet, how did you react to friends making the same decision before you made yours? I guarantee that even if you did not say, or will not admit to saying "They are crazy," "What a stupid decision," "It will ruin their "freedom"," etc.... your friends were saying it behind your back. YEP. Someone, somewhere, thought you were an IDIOT.

Now, fastforward. Are you unhappy? Do you feel trapped? Isolated? Is life pointless? Where you, or your friends, right?
If so, you are in the wrong relationship, with or without children.
So, try the same logic on this issue of children and
stop rationalizing your life choices by making inane, innaccurate comments about "How horrible life would be if....."

 

[smkoepke]

this is totally late but to the original poster who seems awfully concerned about an "oops" happening.... YOU need to be responsible for making sure that it doesn't happen. Just because your GF wants kids someday doesn't mean that it will be her fault if she gets pregnant. (takes two ya know!) Accidents happen even on birth control and if it does happen and you act like it is her problem or that she got pregnant on purpose that won't help matters. (not saying you would but you seem extremely concerned about a slip-up) in any case get thee to a vasectomy clinic right away if you really are this opposed to having a kid. You don't want them so it is YOUR responsibility to do everything you can to make sure that it doesnt happen.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by younghorses
It's kind of like, why do people get married?

You could just live together. When you think about it, there isn't much difference between two people exchanging rings and the same two people just being boyfriend / girlfriend. What is it inside of us (not all people, but most) that pushes even the commitment-phobic to pursue a marriage that has a more than 50% chance of ending prematurely?

Well, for me it's more symbolic than anything. My committment to my wife stands alone, i.e. it does not need a piece of paper to make it any more legitimate or real. A marriage is a bond between two people, nothing more. The piece of paper doesn't add anything to that.

However, getting married does impart certain benefits that our society has deemed for married folks only. So, it would be stupid for two people in a committed relationship not to get married. Why forego the the benefits of spousal health insurance, etc? Not to mention, it more more societally 'acceptable' for two people to live together as a married couple than for two people to simply shack up.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Runtita
But you may be underestimating your own depths of selflessness.

My goal in life is not to achieve selflessness. I am, in fact, very selfish and am not ashamed of it (read Atlas Shrugged).

What is so wrong with indentifying the things that will make me happy, and pursuing them? If having children is what makes you happy, them by all means...spawn like salmon!

However, for me...my goals are purely financial at this point in my life. And why should they be? I mean...hell...where is it written that we're all supposed to have kids? My priorities are 1) family 2) career 3) wealth/material possessions.

Well, I already have #1 and #2, so what's wrong with being solely committed to #3? My wife and I have expensive tastes. Our idea of a nice living room set costs more than most peoples' cars. We get all the home decorating magazines, the Crate & Barrel and Pottery Barn catalogs...we like nice things and are very committed to procuring them. You people act like wanting kids is the only noble desire!

There's nothing wrong with amassing wealth for the sole purpose of accumulating the things you want! Some of you want kids, so great...enjoy spending your money on them. My wife and I don't want kids...we want a home theater with a plasma screen TV and surround sound...industrial stainless steel kitchen appliances...a couple SUVs...frequent vacations abroad. We want to eat out at 5-star restaurants on a regular basis...a home filled with high-end furniture...walls decorated with art...a home gym with top-of-the-line equipment.

These things aren't cheap, people! And kids are nothing but money-sinks. Every dollar I'd have to spend on some snot-nosed kid is one less dollar we can spend on the things we want. Not to mention, those kids require something more valuable than money....TIME! I can't imagine giving up all my free time. As a physician, my time will be limited...and the last thing I want to do at the end of a hard day's work is come home to little screaming brats. No thank you. I'd rather meet my wife out for coctails and dinner.

I'll be the first to admit, I would be a horrible parent. Luckily I realize that and am not having kids. There is no negative consequence to my choice, though. Our over-populated world certainly won't miss a few less kids. My not having kids doesn't hurt anyone.

I just hate it when parents feel that their choice was "selfless" while my choice is "selfish." What a load of crap! Newsflash for you parents out there: BOTH OF OUR CHOICES IS SELFISH.

That's right. Your choice to have kids is just as selfish as my choice not to. You had kids because YOU WANTED THEM! That is purely 100% selfish. You aren't having kids for any other reason than the fact that YOU WANT THEM.

"Selfish" simply describes actions that fulfill your own desires and wants. Nothing wrong with that at all, in my opinion. However, please quit with the "parents are more selfless" moral superiority crap. You're no less selfish than me. We just want different things.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
we want a home theater with a plasma screen TV and surround sound...industrial stainless steel kitchen appliances...a couple SUVs...frequent vacations abroad. We want to eat out at 5-star restaurants on a regular basis...a home filled with high-end furniture...walls decorated with art...a home gym with top-of-the-line equipment.

Thank goodness, I won't have to choose. I'm marrying well enough to have the pampers AND the Prada's!

 

[commymommy]

If having children is what makes you happy, them by all means...spawn like salmon!

OK..you made me laugh, Teufelhunden!!!

 

[johnk]

I feel the same as you about children. Women often look at the superficial but never pay much attention to the responsibility down the road. Children have & always will come between two people in a relationship. One thing I think both of you are overlooking here is the direction our country is heading in. The United States used to be a good place to raise a child but now its arrived at a very corrupt & uncertain future. The employment issue is heading in a very permanently negative direction in the United States. With NAFTA, free world trade & all the immigration going on in this country plus a lot of the affirmative action & employment standards things are not looking very good at all. I personally believe anyone who brings a child into this world is cold hearted and only thinking of themselves & not looking down the road with what the child may have to face. Anyone who argues this subject is flat out in denial and doesn't t want to face reality. If your significant other is having a difficult time with your decision and you're convinced she won't get over it then you might have to get over her and move on. Life is sad that way but some people are just fixed on certain things and you can't change them. They have to change themselves & only attitude determines that. If you don't deal with this issue swiftly & she is convinced its a hopeless cause but yet your the one she wants she might just pull an old tactic that women have been doing for centuries. Watch out for a trap & think with your mind.

 

[commymommy]

Women often look at the superficial but never pay much attention to the responsibility down the road.

Didn't you mean to say that Men often look at the superficial and not pay much attention to the responsibility down the road? Or do we need to have a discussion here about absentee dads, deadbeat dads, etc, etc. Hate to break it to you, but at the end of the day it is usually the woman who has to be responsible...even in a married couple..it is the woman who usually makes the career and personal sacrifices to raise the children...not the man. There are exceptions to this though and I applaud the men...particularly the husbands of docs who stay at home to raise their children.

The United States used to be a good place to raise a child but now its arrived at a very corrupt & uncertain future. The employment issue is heading in a very permanently negative direction in the United States. With NAFTA, free world trade & all the immigration going on in this country plus a lot of the affirmative action & employment standards things are not looking very good at all.

I agree

I personally believe anyone who brings a child into this world is cold hearted and only thinking of themselves & not looking down the road with what the child may have to face. Anyone who argues this subject is flat out in denial and doesn't t want to face reality.

Lets all go and commit suicide right now. You first .

There is hope out there....and though things are bad right now, I think we do have the power to make them better for our children.

kris

 

[Runtita]

T$ and johnk, more power to you for not reproducing.

As far as the selfish/selfless debate and which is "better"...

I'll admit that having children can be a selfish fulfillment of one's own desires. I never said it wasn't. But one can be both selfish and selfless.

And just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, wealth is individually defined. I am a richer person for having had kids...no plasma TV or SUV is worth my children's existence. Money doesn't mean $hit when you're old and alone...


And the world is a better place for having my children in it. Without hope, existence is meaningless. johnk, if you truly believe that this country and world are going down the tubes, why don't you do something about it?

 

[Kashue]

Originally posted by Runtita
T$ and johnk, more power to you for not reproducing.

As far as the selfish/selfless debate and which is "better"...

I'll admit that having children can be a selfish fulfillment of one's own desires. I never said it wasn't. But one can be both selfish and selfless.

And just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, wealth is individually defined. I am a richer person for having had kids...no plasma TV or SUV is worth my children's existence. Money doesn't mean $hit when you're old and alone...


And the world is a better place for having my children in it. Without hope, existence is meaningless. johnk, if you truly believe that this country and world are going down the tubes, why don't you do something about it?

 

[radspouse]

The way I look at it: Since progressively less and less people are having children in our society the more likely my own children and, subsequently my grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be in charge when they grow up. If my direct descendants progressively become larger percentages of the population my genes as well as my cultural teachings will influence a larger portion of human life on the earth - making me ultimately more powerful - mwahahahaha. So, by all means everyone else: DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.

Seriously, my purpose for having children was to positively shape society and my world - I think it is quite debatable as to whether that motive is a selfish one for creating human beings.

 

[Elsie]

my kids' pediatrician is a woman, who's husband stays home with their 4 kids. She's an AWESOME doctor.