Guessing # unmatched spots

[deleted947887]

Can we guess how many programs went unmatched this year and see who guesses right for a prize?

I'm gonna say 8 programs and 16 spots.

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[udrag14]

Can we guess how many programs went unmatched this year and see who guesses right for a prize?

I'm gonna say 8 programs and 16 spots.

Looks like 26 spots [no guess needed].

 

[evilbooyaa]

Looks like 26 spots [no guess needed].

Wowza. If this isn't fake news, hopefully it wakes up somebody in leadership.

EDIT - Just confirmed on the spreadsheet. IIRC, posting the names of the programs is against NRMP rules, so please do not mention the programs by name. For those interested in reading, the names of the programs are listed in the google spreadsheet.

 

[deleted947887]

Wowza. If this isn't fake news, hopefully it wakes up somebody in leadership.

What an embarrassment. Great work, Lisa and Paul.

 

[RO2019]

More like great work SDN?

This is exactly what you guys wanted.

 

[deleted947887]

More like great work SDN?

This is exactly what you guys wanted.

Great work radiation oncology. This is exactly what academic rad oncs caused. Glad some people are pursuing stable careers.

 

[seper]

students are listening - good

 

[deleted947887]

students are listening - good

Roach formula part 2: if you take the number of unmatched spots and subtract it from 100, you get the pass rate for our board exam biology section.

 

[Neuronix]

Looks like 26 spots [no guess needed].

 

[deleted947887]

Welcome to pathology

 

[RadOncMegatron]

How things have deteriorated so from even 10 years ago is amazing - but I think the right thing has been done. It was naive to think current programs expanding residency spots like crazy all over the country, allowing new small center to obtain residents, and ASTRO saying "umm, we can't do nothing about it" that this wouldn't happen. Glad to see students are getting the message.

 

[medgator]

More like great work SDN?

This is exactly what you guys wanted.

Can't handle the red pill?

 

[deleted947887]

For those that matched, do not despair, there are still opportunities to change specialties before PGY2.

 

[Gfunk6]

More like great work SDN?

This is exactly what you guys wanted.

No worries, there will still be spots available in the scramble (or whatever it is called now) for folks who were not competitive enough to match in FM, pathology, or nuclear medicine.

 

[domestique]

I haven't looked at the spreadsheet because I don't have ready access to the link but I have it from multiple sources that's 26 spots across 21 programs most of which are johnny-come-latelies and by that I mean this year or 2-3 years in existence. Arguably only one or two of any significance among all 21. For those that just opened up shop, they should probably just do the right thing and shut-er-down.

 

[deleted947887]

No worries, there will still be spots available in the scramble (or whatever it is called now) for folks who were not competitive enough to match in FM, pathology, or nuclear medicine.

Move over pathology, rad onc is the new H1 visa specialty.

 

[deleted947887]

From what perspective is that the right thing? This is a business. Whoever doesn't understand that, is fooling themselves. No chair will pass up the opportunity for free labor-integrity be damned!

I haven't looked at the spreadsheet because I don't have ready access to the link but I have it from multiple sources that's 26 spots across 19 programs most of which are johnny-come-latelies and by that I mean this year or 2-3 years in existence. Arguably only one or two of any significance among all 19. For those that just opened up shop, they should probably just do the right thing and shut-er-down.

 

[littleemma]

what a joke? our lovely rad onc leaders!

29 unmatched?

Feel sorry for myself, worked so hard to get in this field years ago.

 

[domestique]

From what perspective is that the right thing? This is a business. Whoever doesn't understand that, is fooling themselves. No chair will pass up the opportunity for free labor-integrity be damned!

I appreciate the sentiment and perhaps some will act according to these motives. But does one really want to see one's program go unfilled year after year? Depending on the institution, I would expect some deans and/or GME leaders to have a problem with that.

 

[fiji128]

Wow astounding. 10 to 15% of offered spots going unfilled. PDs of the world will need to lower that bar next year if they want to fill!

 

[evilbooyaa]

I have confirmed with more senior SDN staff. Public discussion of exactly which programs are on the SOAP list is not permitted on SDN due to NRMP legality issues. Please refrain from naming programs specifically on SDN.

 

[medgator]

Basically @domestique does not know wtf they are talking about.

Still, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

When was the last RO match this unfilled? 3+decades ago?

 

[Krukenberg]

So is this the canary in the coal mine that Zeitman predicted? It came way sooner than I think anyone would have expected.

 

[emt409]

So is this the canary in the coal mine that Zeitman predicted? It came way sooner than I think anyone would have expected.

There are obviously multiple factors contributing to and culminating in these results. Probably overhyped job concerns (largely from this message board) as well as the massive ABR cluster****ery by Kachnic and Wallner in instead of addressing obvious concerns about the exam process, doubling down and ****ting on the residents that know far more physics, radbio, cancer bio, immuno, and trials than they could have even dreamed of at similar stages of their training.

Programs not interviewing residents with high PTP of wanting to be at their program

 

[medgator]

overhyped job concerns (largely from this message board)

Vs the underhype from pretty much everywhere else

Probably balances out

 

[deleted950463]

I am sure folks with step score of low 200s and scrambling into radonc due to not matching internal medicine will really ace the physics and rad bio test.

Also, would be interesting to see more DOs and FMG in the field. I think that’s a good thing to bring diverse values and experiences in.

 

[metview]

I'm glad students are listening and seeing the signs. Maybe now the so called leaders in this field will as well...but I doubt it. The reasons for this are 1. Less applicants (smart students who know what's going on), 2. Too many programs (not so smart PDs and Chairman), and 3. Programs that are not top-10 thinking they are top-10 and interviewing top applicants. I really hope the majority of these programs wise up and DON'T participate in SOAP or else it will be filled by DOs, Foreign and Caribbean graduates

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Rad onc as we know it is DONE. THANKS PAUL AND LISA!! You sure showed them!

 

[Haybrant]

We already know the world has been disrupted by social media and the internet. Information flows are increasingly perfect. If something doesn’t change (ABR leadership reform [starting w paul/lisa], board exam reform, reform of job placement, limit on 70 year olds practicing 30 year old techniques, limits on exclusionary hiring etc) just expect that 26 unfilled spots to jump by another 26 next year and attrition of prelim/1st years. Markets react quickly now. Demonstrating change may bring people back just as fast too

 

[deleted950463]

I really hope the majority of these programs wise up and DON'T participate in SOAP or else it will be filled by DOs, Foreign and Caribbean graduates

Whats wrong with that?

 

[medgator]

Whats wrong with that?

Depends on the scenario... But some of them are weak, clinically and otherwise. Not all, but some and that creates a stigma around them.

Why else do people go the DO or IMG route coming from undergrad in the states?

 

[deleted947887]

Depends on the scenario... But some of them are weak, clinically and otherwise. Not all, but some and that creates a stigma around them.

Why else do people go the DO or IMG route coming from undergrad in the states?

The ideal situation would be spots go to foreign grads without permanent residency or go unfilled.

 

[Radiator20]

I have confirmed with more senior SDN staff. Public discussion of exactly which programs are on the SOAP list is not permitted on SDN due to NRMP legality issues. Please refrain from naming programs specifically on SDN.

Does that also apply to the spreadsheet?

 

[Neuronix]

Does that also apply to the spreadsheet?

SDN has no ownership or control over the spreadsheet.

 

[PointA]

Since >10% of all slots went unfilled, can we all finally agree to halt residency expansion? Does it make sense to expand when there are more positions available than US applicants?

 

[DucoNonducor]

I'm glad students are listening and seeing the signs. Maybe now the so called leaders in this field will as well...but I doubt it. The reasons for this are 1. Less applicants (smart students who know what's going on), 2. Too many programs (not so smart PDs and Chairman), and 3. Programs that are not top-10 thinking they are top-10 and interviewing top applicants. I really hope the majority of these programs wise up and DON'T participate in SOAP or else it will be filled by DOs, Foreign and Caribbean graduates

We had a couple of medical students at our institution who were strong clinically and with great board scores. They were engaged in research with us but voiced job market concerns and the direction that the field is taking as the main factor that made them decide to pursue IR as an alternative.

 

[metview]

We had a couple of medical students at our institution who were strong clinically and with great board scores. They were engaged in research with us but voiced job market concerns and the direction that the field is taking as the main factor that made them decide to pursue IR as an alternative.

It's encouraging to see that medical students are paying attention to the market. It would be amazing if leadership sees that as well and stops expansion and stops creating brand new programs.

 

[deleted947887]

A couple of lives saved.

We had a couple of medical students at our institution who were strong clinically and with great board scores. They were engaged in research with us but voiced job market concerns and the direction that the field is taking as the main factor that made them decide to pursue IR as an alternative.

 

[DukeNukem]

What do you call 15% of rad onc not filling?

A good start.

Greedy academic chairs ruined this specialty.

Get the specialty back down to 100 residency grads per year for a few years and let's see where we are.

I have been looking for a new job for almost a year now, willing to move almost anywhere in the country for a good position. Zero interviews. Meanwhile, med oncs are having a party all over my state. They are being hired at double to triple the going rate for rad oncs and being heavily recruited out of fellowship.

 

[Sheldor]

What do you call 15% of rad onc not filling?

A good start.

Greedy academic chairs ruined this specialty.

Get the specialty back down to 100 residency grads per year for a few years and let's see where we are.

I have been looking for a new job for almost a year now, willing to move almost anywhere in the country for a good position. Zero interviews. Meanwhile, med oncs are having a party all over my state. They are being hired at double to triple the going rate for rad oncs and being heavily recruited out of fellowship.

So Med Oncs are getting hired for 600-900k starting salaries? If so that's insane.

 

[DukeNukem]

600k out of fellowship, yes. The most I was offered out of residency was 300k.

Several years later and my pay has barely increased. The same med oncs on partnership tracks are now making on the order of triple my salary.

 

[RickyScott]

Since >10% of all slots went unfilled, can we all finally agree to halt residency expansion? Does it make sense to expand when there are more positions available than US applicants?

Obviously that is on point, but the issue here is greed. Path shows us the future.

 

[Lamount]

... and yet the sun still rose this morning. Everyone needs to take a deep breath

 

[RadOncMegatron]

Does anyone remember when this forum used to regularly get posts like "I am an MD, PhD with a +250 Step I, with 5 publications, but only 3 cancer related. Do I have chance of matching?" These people were sincerely concerned about getting any spot in our field.

I remember being so annoyed by those posts, but alas, when will we see another post like that again?

 

[RickyScott]

... and yet the sun still rose this morning. Everyone needs to take a deep breath

No, it will get worse next year. Never try to catch a falling knife is a good piece of advice for medstudents and stock pickers.

 

[multitudes]

ARRO started a nice discussion on Twitter in which many of our shining leaders are talking about getting folks from ASTRO, ABR, ACGME, SCAROP, and ARRO to do... something. Perhaps, I don’t know, maybe we need fewer residency spots? Where have I heard this before?

It’s really something else to see this discussion take place when many of us have been begging for answers for years, only to be met with “medical students will decide” or “the market will correct itself.” Now that medics students have voted (by choosing other jobs), many of these same people are somehow surprised.

Fascinating.

 

[medgator]

ARRO started a nice discussion on Twitter .

No nice discussion on Twitter about RO can happen without bashing SDN... Seems to have occurred a few times on the replies

 

[RickyScott]

ARRO started a nice discussion on Twitter in which many of our shining leaders are talking about getting folks from ASTRO, ABR, ACGME, SCAROP, and ARRO to do... something. Perhaps, I don’t know, maybe we need fewer residency spots? Where have I heard this before?

It’s really something else to see this discussion take place when many of us have been begging for answers for years, only to be met with “medical students will decide” or “the market will correct itself.” Now that medics students have voted (by choosing other jobs), many of these same people are somehow surprised.

Fascinating.

It would be great if this could happen, but again the issue is greed, and residencies will just fill with FMG/DOs. You dont have to be that smart to be a good radiation oncologist (my IQ<100 based on wonderlic) . With all the instituitional policies and protocols, a warm body will suffice, especially in a setting like MDACC where there is a rule for everything.

 

[seper]

No leaders in sight on Twitter. They are busy trying to quickly judge scramblers' CV's.

ARRO started a nice discussion on Twitter in which many of our shining leaders are talking about getting folks from ASTRO, ABR, ACGME, SCAROP, and ARRO to do... something. Perhaps, I don’t know, maybe we need fewer residency spots? Where have I heard this before?

It’s really something else to see this discussion take place when many of us have been begging for answers for years, only to be met with “medical students will decide” or “the market will correct itself.” Now that medics students have voted (by choosing other jobs), many of these same people are somehow surprised.

Fascinating.

 

[bluebubbles]

What do you call 15% of rad onc not filling?
Get the specialty back down to 100 residency grads per year for a few years and let's see where we are.

Unlikely. The chairs of these unfilled programs will recruit...somebody... Then in a few years they'll see that "you get what you pay for" and then, maybe the # of positions will come down. Not until then.