Any residents in hot spots being pulled out of the department?

[w00tz]

Survival of the fittest?

Yup, whatever it takes for our nation to get up and running to enjoy a nice Easter service at church! See ya there! (maybe?)

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[smq123]

I don’t think I would. There are not many instances in life to have none or close to having no responsibilities and the best times of my life were either in between jobs or the times following graduations.

I feel like the "best times of your life" are because you have the freedom to do stuff that you enjoy. If you were an MS4 right now, what would you do? Can't go to the beach (they're all barricaded off). Can't work out (most gyms are closed or severely restricting use). Can't travel. Even if you could travel, where would you go? Cruise ships are kind of floating petri dishes in the best of times, and now Europe and Asia are closed off. Just sit at home and watch Netflix all day?

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Harvard rad onc

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Harvard rad onc

Donating humans. Hospital administrators are totally out of control.

Of course it's the same instituation that had PD refer to medical students as "canaries", so I guess I'm not shocked.

Haaaaaaaavaaaard.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

 

[radoncgrad2019]

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Add to the discussion that residents don't even get to choose where they work or negotiate contracts to their market value or really have any control over their life.

It's an absurdity that wouldn't be allowed in literally any other profession.

You literally open an envelope stating, here's where you will report July 1st. They pay this much. They will use you for whatever they want. You have no recourse. Enjoy.

 

[deleted605854]

Maybe it's just time to dump medicine all together? I don't think anyone will emerge from this pandemic any wiser. Especially hospital administrators and other "leadership" people. They will continue to abuse and use their pawns (without adequate PPE). Because that's how leadership rolls.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I hope the guy who responded to her feels the same way if the United States Army drafts him to go fight in some war he didn't sign up for.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

In the meantime

Mount Sinai hospital leaders holed up in Florida vacation homes during coronavirus crisis

While heroic staffers beg for protective equipment and don garbage bags to treat coronavirus patients at a Mount Sinai hospital, two of the system’s top executives are waiting out the public …

nypost.com

 

[radoncgrad2019]

 

[deleted605854]

In the meantime

Mount Sinai hospital leaders holed up in Florida vacation homes during coronavirus crisis

While heroic staffers beg for protective equipment and don garbage bags to treat coronavirus patients at a Mount Sinai hospital, two of the system’s top executives are waiting out the public …

nypost.com

Thank you for posting this. I'm being sincere.

 

[Gfunk6]

Guys, I hate to be the nay-sayer here but we are physicians first. All of us took the Hippocratic Oath. In times of crisis there will always be cowards, hypocrites, and profiteers.

We owe our services to the greater good of society and humanity.

 

[deleted774703]

Guys, I hate to be the nay-sayer here but we are physicians first. All of us took the Hippocratic Oath. In times of crisis there will always be cowards, hypocrites, and profiteers.

We owe our services to the greater good of society and humanity.

Agree with above 2 posts. This isn’t residents fighting to avoid double coverage note scut

Right now about the greater good

 

[medgator]

Agree with above 2 posts. This isn’t residents fighting to avoid double coverage note scut

Right now about the greater good

If things were about the greater good, healthcare workers wouldn't be using hefty bags as PPE right now in NYC, while the CIC debates which governors to call up and assist

 

[deleted774703]

If things were about the greater good, healthcare workers wouldn't be using hefty bags as PPE right now in NYC, while the CIC debates which governors to call up and assist

I totally agree and what is going on in NYC and overall in RE to PPE and lack of testing is shameful

Doesn’t mean we can’t help when safe and we are potentially available

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Guys, I hate to be the nay-sayer here but we are physicians first. All of us took the Hippocratic Oath. In times of crisis there will always be cowards, hypocrites, and profiteers.

We owe our services to the greater good of society and humanity.

Always going to be pawns in the game. I just don’t want to be one.

 

[smq123]

Always going to be pawns in the game. I just don’t want to be one.

None of us want to be a pawn, but when push comes to shove, someone needs to help. Why is a rad onc physician any more valuable than a pathologist, dermatologist, or physiatrist that you shouldn’t have to help out?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

None of us want to be a pawn, but when push comes to shove, someone needs to help. Why is a rad onc physician any more valuable than a pathologist, dermatologist, or physiatrist that you shouldn’t have to help out?

All about one’s personal perspective and values. This is a job and I’m passionate about but I’m not going to be a soldier in this war.

Sorry to disappoint you guys. I’ll be the first to admit that I am not a hero. I never claimed to be one. My commitment is to my family and my cancer patients who I’m treating with radiation, not to be on the frontlines doing something I didn’t sign up for.

 

[medgator]

All about one’s personal perspective and values. This is a job and yes one I’m passionate about but I’m not going to be a soldier in this war.

Sorry to disappoint you guys. I’ll be the first to admit that I am not a hero. I never claimed to be one. My commitment is to my family and my cancer patients who I’m treating with radiation, not to be on the frontlines doing something I didn’t sign up for.

Especially ill-prepared without PPE... As they say, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Covid-19 is very high risk for healthcare providers.

Rad onc still needs to happen during the times of covid-19. Just ask the two cord compression patients i saw this week.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Especially ill-prepared without PPE... As they say, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Covid-19 is very high risk for healthcare providers.

Rad onc still needs to happen during the times of covid-19. Just ask the two cord compression patients i saw this week.

Did you give them 30/10?

 

[medgator]

Did you give them 30/10?

Haven't simmed them yet, but that was the plan. Both are high kps, not candidates for surgery.

Do i have your blessing?

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Haven't simmed them yet, but that was the plan. Both are high kps, not candidates for surgery.

Do i have your blessing?

Just wondering if you would consider shortening to 20/5 or 8/1 given covid. No right answers

 

[medgator]

Just wondering if you would consider shortening to 20/5 or 8/1 given covid. No right answers

I wouldn't do 8/1 to the spine personally, i do it to non spine locations.

I may switch to 20/5 though for one of the patients as he is more affected, the other one is walky talky though in pretty good shape.

If only i had done the inpatient palliative fellowship at Columbia...

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm a father, husband, son, and person before I'm a physician.

I've been through reprogramming though so YMMV.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

None of us want to be a pawn, but when push comes to shove, someone needs to help. Why is a rad onc physician any more valuable than a pathologist, dermatologist, or physiatrist that you shouldn’t have to help out?

Honestly, rad onc and pathologists are probably worth the least. We're crawling around everywhere.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The movie Speed would have been very different if Keanu Reeves kept calling for other bus drivers to be forced to jump on board.

If I need to, I'll make a moral call to jump in the fray or not. I'll have to live with that one way or another. However, I'm not going to let some ancient oath or administrator make the decision for me. "First, do no harm." Not applicable to me, or my kids, or my wife, or my parents?

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Guys, I hate to be the nay-sayer here but we are physicians first. All of us took the Hippocratic Oath. In times of crisis there will always be cowards, hypocrites, and profiteers.

We owe our services to the greater good of society and humanity.

Grandstanding? Encouragement to serve?

Not all of us took the oath; in the last decades many schools have dispensed with the practice. The original includes language (abortion e.g.) that is no longer relevant.

It is easy to stay on the high ground when you have no skin in the game and no one can command you to serve.

 

[deleted1002574]

Couple thoughts..

Doctors that are hospital employed may be the ones that are coerced to work the floor / icu. Mostly because hospital policy will essentially shut down a lot of cancer care and these folks can be “donated” (wtf).

Freestanding docs won’t be called in, plus many of them won’t stop seeing patients, start hypoFX, etc, they will see the patients the hospitals have delayed/temporized and will remain on average relatively busier than hospitals.

Will be a longer road back for the hospital based practice, I would imagine.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

"I will allow a hospital administrator who is holed up in some Florida beach side mansion, compel me mindlessly into service. Even if appropriate PPE are unavailable."

The Hippocratic Oath, 2020

 

[smq123]

Especially ill-prepared without PPE... As they say, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Covid-19 is very high risk for healthcare providers.

Rad onc still needs to happen during the times of covid-19. Just ask the two cord compression patients i saw this week.

Have you had any cancer patients who need urgent radiation, but also happen to be COVID positive? Would you still treat them?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

In the meantime:

Trump says he won’t comply with key transparency measures in the coronavirus stimulus bill — Vox

The administration says it won’t provide documentation for audits into $500 billion in corporate bailout funds.

apple.news

People making a lot of money as they do in any war.

 

[medgator]

Have you had any cancer patients who need urgent radiation, but also happen to be COVID positive? Would you still treat them?

Yup. Better me do that than try to intubate them, don't you think?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Yup. Better me do that than try to intubate them, don't you think?

Agree, we have a protocol set up for this situation. Granted, it’s likely for the extreme emergency and I would deliver only one fraction.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Have you had any cancer patients who need urgent radiation, but also happen to be COVID positive? Would you still treat them?

Yes!!!! A million times yes. THIS is what I signed up for.

 

[deleted956486]

His chair posted that the residents volunteered. That's not what it sounds like.

 

[smq123]

Yup. Better me do that than try to intubate them, don't you think?

Well, to be fair, I think that the expectation is not that rad onc (or derm or PMR or ophtho) residents would be asked to run an ICU. They would probably be doing triage/rule outs/etc.

So you're saying that you're not afraid of the coronavirus, you're afraid that you'll be asked to do something that you haven't been trained to do?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Well, to be fair, I think that the expectation is not that rad onc (or derm or PMR or ophtho) residents would be asked to run an ICU. They would probably be doing triage/rule outs/etc.

So you're saying that you're not afraid of the coronavirus, you're afraid that you'll be asked to do something that you haven't been trained to do?

Yes. And Yes. Tort reform is not a thing in this country.

I wouldn't be happy if someone's life depended on my ability to knit a sweater right now either.

 

[smq123]

Yes. And Yes. Tort reform is not a thing in this country.

I wouldn't be happy if someone's life depended on my ability to knit a sweater right now either.

I understand that. I wouldn't want to intubate someone either.

That being said, though, I think that a lot of the anguish about residents being pulled out of their department "because we're not trained in airway management" is overblown. I think that there was some talk about orthopedic surgeons in Italy being asked to intubate, but a) I'm not clear how much truth there was in that, and b) I don't think that would happen here. But I DO think that it would be useful to have trained physicians help with ER triage, which is probably what you (or your residents, if you have them) would be doing. Any reasonably trained physician with a decent amount of clinical experience can do that.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I understand that. I wouldn't want to intubate someone either.

That being said, though, I think that a lot of the anguish about residents being pulled out of their department "because we're not trained in airway management" is overblown. I think that there was some talk about orthopedic surgeons in Italy being asked to intubate, but a) I'm not clear how much truth there was in that, and b) I don't think that would happen here. But I DO think that it would be useful to have trained physicians help with ER triage, which is probably what you (or your residents, if you have them) would be doing. Any reasonably trained physician with a decent amount of clinical experience can do that.

I would still need proper PPE and not just a surgical mask and a garbage bag.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Yeah, I think it's more about a human being, being compelled to do something they don't wan't to do and didn't volunteer for being coerced to do it rather than anything else.

Just because you have an MD doesn't mean you have no rights.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Cutbacks for some doctors and nurses as they battle on the front line - The Boston Globe

These financial cutbacks, coming in response to sudden shortfalls during the coronavirus outbreak, have triggered an outcry from doctors and nurses who are already working grueling shifts in demanding working conditions.

www.bostonglobe.com

Meanwhile in Boston. (at Haaaaaavaaaaard)

“Like many other health care and physician organizations, the economics of the care we provide has changed quickly and dramatically,” wrote Dr. Alexa B. Kimball, chief executive of the Harvard Medical Faculty Physicians group practice at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, in an e-mail Thursday to doctors that was obtained by the Globe. “I wish I had better news to convey as I know all of you are making sacrifices every day in all sorts of ways.”

“It’s a privilege and an honor to have this job,” said one ER doctor. “It seems crazy that we’ll be compensated less as we work more and put ourselves in harm’s way.”

“We’re human, too,” another ER doctor said simply. “It’s just blow after blow after blow, on top of showing up for work and feeling potentially like I could not come home, too.”




Keep fighting the good fight Boston (Harvard) residents, your "oath" (aka financial considerations for your paymaster) compel you.

 

[smq123]

Yeah, I think it's more about a human being, being compelled to do something they don't wan't to do and didn't volunteer for being coerced to do it rather than anything else.

Sure, I get that.

That being said, I don't find it to be a compelling argument.

A radiation oncology resident is, at the youngest, 27 or 28, right? They're an adult. They're old enough to understand that this is an extremely urgent, very unusual situation. They're also old enough to understand that unusual situations will require unusual measures - i.e. mobilizing every warm body in the hospital to help. They're all physicians, so they're educated enough to understand why so many people are so sick all at once. They also should be able to understand that people are not just a little sick, but very ill, and will require more than just a few additional nurses to help out. We're not asking toddlers to please understand why mommy and daddy have to work; we're asking adult, nearly fully educated physicians to step outside of their comfort zone because of the severe situation at hand.

Yeah, I know - "I didn't sign up for this." Well, none of us did, except maybe the epidemiologists. High school seniors didn't expect to have the fun part of senior year (prom, graduation, etc.) taken away from them. Working parents didn't expect that they'd have to work from home while also wrangling toddlers or home schooling their kids. Waiters and bartenders didn't expect that they'd have zero work opportunities nearly overnight because all the restaurants and bars and clubs closed abruptly, all at the same time. This situation sucks for nearly everyone.

As for the claim that they're upset by the language, but would have been perfectly happy to volunteer - please. Look at the responses in this thread. If the average radiation oncologist/dermatologist/physiatrist/etc. wasn't "volun-told" by their PD or their employer that they would have to do this, truly, how many would ACTUALLY have volunteered? Very few, if any, I would guess.

I get it. You're scared. I'm scared, too. I'm scared every time I am asked to evaluate a possible rule out COVID. But I do it without whining because....what else are we going to do? This is the hand we were dealt, all we can do now is put on our big boy panties and do it. If I don't do it, then one of my colleagues will have to, and I couldn't live with knowing that someone else got sick because I was too big of a ***** to do my job.

At the very least, I hope that those residents who complain are not also those residents who made sure to get their free coffee at Starbucks, or their free pair of AllBirds, or their free pair of Crocs (although I don't think I would take a pair of Crocs, even if they WERE free) because "I'm a healthcare worker! I'm on the front lines!"

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Hey man. Feel free to staff all the ICUs you feel comfortable staffing.

 

[deleted1002574]

I completely feel the opposite of Mandelin Rain, but feel very strongly that no one should give anyone a hard time. Not everyone agrees about the responsibility. It’s very divisive to try to shame someone into it.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I completely feel the opposite of Mandelin Rain, but feel very strongly that no one should give anyone a hard time. Not everyone agrees about the responsibility. It’s very divisive to try to shame someone into it.

Nah. We have to shame each other into service or the whole thing breaks down... AND the hospital admins don't win.

 

[medgator]

Cutbacks for some doctors and nurses as they battle on the front line - The Boston Globe

These financial cutbacks, coming in response to sudden shortfalls during the coronavirus outbreak, have triggered an outcry from doctors and nurses who are already working grueling shifts in demanding working conditions.

www.bostonglobe.com

Meanwhile in Boston. (at Haaaaaavaaaaard)

“Like many other health care and physician organizations, the economics of the care we provide has changed quickly and dramatically,” wrote Dr. Alexa B. Kimball, chief executive of the Harvard Medical Faculty Physicians group practice at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, in an e-mail Thursday to doctors that was obtained by the Globe. “I wish I had better news to convey as I know all of you are making sacrifices every day in all sorts of ways.”

“It’s a privilege and an honor to have this job,” said one ER doctor. “It seems crazy that we’ll be compensated less as we work more and put ourselves in harm’s way.”

“We’re human, too,” another ER doctor said simply. “It’s just blow after blow after blow, on top of showing up for work and feeling potentially like I could not come home, too.”


Keep fighting the good fight Boston (Harvard) residents, your "oath" (aka financial considerations for your paymaster) compel you.

Yup, many other systems aren't doing that:

Massachusetts General Hospital and Brigham and Women’s Hospital are not currently contemplating financial cutbacks for health care providers, according to a spokesman for their parent company, Partners HealthCare. Tufts Medical Center says it has not taken such steps. And at UMass Memorial Health Care, where many departments are closed, downsized, or operating remotely, staff can be redeployed to areas where the need is greatest, or take paid time off or accrued earned time off, according to a spokesman.

Some health care providers who spoke to the Globe wondered whether company financial reserves could be used to help weather the crisis, instead of dipping into their paychecks.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Any Rad Onc resident or attending that is being reassigned is NOT going to be intubating anyone. It’s like ward or ICU notes and orders they want from you.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

 

[Palex80]

Harvard rad onc

Replace "Radiation Therapists" with "Certain Radiation Oncology Residents"...


Meme is not mine...