Getting into vet school with a high undergrad gpa and mediocre grad school gpa

[Ozzie295]

Hey guys I was interested in receiving some feedback on the situation I'm in as I couldn't seem to find much information anywhere else.

I graduated from my undergrad institution with dual bachelor's degrees in animal science and molecular/cellular biology with a 3.91 GPA. I decided to pursue a master's degree in ruminant nutrition so I would have a chance to gain more animal experience and gain another degree and more research experience in the meantime. I was also hoping it would prep me to apply for DVM/PhD work as I know it is extremely competitive and research is my main passion. However, my graduate GPA is mediocre (3.34). I had a rough first semester due to personal issues.

This is my second semester so I can definitely bring my GPA up but I was curious to know if anyone else had been in this situation. Were you able to get into vet school with a mediocre graduate school GPA or did you pursue another path? I know you have to include all institutional GPAs on vet school applications. I was just wondering if undergrad GPA counted more, if grad school GPA counted more, or if they counted equally. Hope that makes sense!

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[Jess Monster]

From what I have seen/experienced, your undergrad and graduate GPA will most likely be combined into a cumulative GPA at most schools. A high undergrad GPA will help you out in your current situation though.

You need to check with individual schools in how they specifically deal with graduate level coursework. There are schools that have weird policies/procedures regarding graduate studies - like, even if you have a Master's or PhD, your last 30/45 GPA will only be calculated on your last two years of undergrad coursework.

 

[Lab Vet]

From what I have seen/experienced, your undergrad and graduate GPA will most likely be combined into a cumulative GPA at most schools.

Not true. Many veterinary schools don't include graduate GPA at all in the admissions formula (Mizzou comes to mind). Sorry to say this, OP, but if you're interested in gaining admittance to a DVM/PhD program with a 3.3 GPA, I don't see that happening. Dual degree programs have their choice of 'cream of the crop' applicants, and I'd doubt you'd be chosen with a GPA in that range. That's not to say that you can't do research while in veterinary school (although some of the funded summer programs [Merial] will lock you out if you have substantial research experience upon entering veterinary school), it just may not be funded. If you have significant research experience, look into the availability of NIH T-32 training grants. These programs are designed for students who already have their feet wet with the process, unlike the Merial Vet Research Scholars program, which is meant to introduce veterinary students to empirical science.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. A career in research certainly isn't out of reach, you just may need to go about it via a different route. That being said, I see nothing lost by applying to dual degree programs. Who knows? It may work out in your favor. I just wouldn't bet my bank balance on an acceptance. Good luck![/QUOTE]

 

[shawarmafan]

I have a ~3.5 UG GPA overall, with a ~3.00 grad GPA over 13 credits, and then a ~3.9 UG GPA when I went back and finished 3 pre-reqs. Most schools just factored those 13 credits into my GPAs normally which gave me an overall "science/pre-req" GPA of ~3.7, but that is because I never received my master's degree. VMCAS will separate your UG/grad/sci/etc GPAs in the PDF version of the application, so this is likely what schools will be looking at as well.

Take with a grain of salt: I applied to 5 schools and received interviews from the 4 that offer interviews. No acceptances yet (*prays*), but grad GPA is definitely more important/equal to pre-req GPA because it's more indicative of a vet school curriculum, but I assume adcoms realize graduate school SHOULD be more difficult than undergrad and take that into account when evaluating people. For me at least, I would look far more favorably on someone with a 3.9 and a 3.3 masters in ruminant nutrition than someone with just a 3.9. Good luck!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Not true. Many veterinary schools don't include graduate GPA at all in the admissions formula (Mizzou comes to mind). Sorry to say this, OP, but if you're interested in gaining admittance to a DVM/PhD program with a 3.3 GPA, I don't see that happening. Dual degree programs have their choice of 'cream of the crop' applicants, and I'd doubt you'd be chosen with a GPA in that range. That's not to say that you can't do research while in veterinary school (although some of the funded summer programs [Merial] will lock you out if you have substantial research experience upon entering veterinary school), it just may not be funded. If you have significant research experience, look into the availability of NIH T-32 training grants. These programs are designed for students who already have their feet wet with the process, unlike the Merial Vet Research Scholars program, which is meant to introduce veterinary students to empirical science.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. A career in research certainly isn't out of reach, you just may need to go about it via a different route. That being said, I see nothing lost by applying to dual degree programs. Who knows? It may work out in your favor. I just wouldn't bet my bank balance on an acceptance. Good luck!

The T32 is for veterinarians (usually post-residency specialists but some generalists apply as well) and postdocs....not sure the OP would qualify. Also are insanely competitive.

Additionally, NIH grants require a human component and a major one at that. Ruminant nutrition will be laughed out the door (I know you know this, just bears repeating for OP). If you want to have a successful research career, is is much more advisable to be in animal models of human disease rather than veterinary research. Funding for the latter is absolutely abysmal.

 

[Lab Vet]

From what I have seen/experienced, your undergrad and graduate GPA will most likely be combined into a cumulative GPA at most schools. A high undergrad GPA will help you out in your current situation though.

You need to check with individual schools in how they specifically deal with graduate level coursework. There are schools that have weird policies/procedures regarding graduate studies - like, even if you have a Master's or PhD, your last 30/45 GPA will only be calculated on your last two years of undergrad coursework.

I have a ~3.5 UG GPA overall, with a ~3.00 grad GPA over 13 credits, and then a ~3.9 UG GPA when I went back and finished 3 pre-reqs. Most schools just factored those 13 credits into my GPAs normally which gave me an overall "science/pre-req" GPA of ~3.7, but that is because I never received my master's degree. VMCAS will separate your UG/grad/sci/etc GPAs in the PDF version of the application, so this is likely what schools will be looking at as well.

Take with a grain of salt: I applied to 5 schools and received interviews from the 4 that offer interviews. No acceptances yet (*prays*), but grad GPA is definitely more important/equal to pre-req GPA because it's more indicative of a vet school curriculum, but I assume adcoms realize graduate school SHOULD be more difficult than undergrad and take that into account when evaluating people. For me at least, I would look far more favorably on someone with a 3.9 and a 3.3 masters in ruminant nutrition than someone with just a 3.9. Good luck!

Also not true. Veterinary school is nothing like graduate school, especially for those grad students who completed thesis research. Veterinary school curricula are much more similar to undergrad classes with respect to structure and execution. Graduate school and veterinary school teach very different skills. They're not comparable.

 

[Lab Vet]

The T32 is for veterinarians (usually post-residency specialists but some generalists apply as well) and postdocs....not sure the OP would qualify. Also are insanely competitive.

Additionally, NIH grants require a human component and a major one at that. Ruminant nutrition will be laughed out the door (I know you know this, just bears repeating for OP). If you want to have a successful research career, is is much more advisable to be in animal models of human disease rather than veterinary research. Funding for the latter is absolutely abysmal.

Thanks, WTF. I wasn't exactly sure how the T-32 system worked. I could have sworn I had classmates at NCSU who did have substantial research experience who piggy-backed off of a faculty member's standing T-32. That's the only way I know of (at least here), to gain paid research experience through a formalized program if you're not new to the research game. There's always the possibility that OP could gain a paid position in a faculty member's lab. I myself am employed part-time by a faculty member in a research support position. You're right, of course, about the NIH mandate for human applicability. Unless OP could draw some strong parallels between the proposed work and human health outcomes, that would be a no go.

 

[Lab Vet]

Thanks, WTF. I wasn't exactly sure how the T-32 system worked. I could have sworn I had classmates at NCSU who did have substantial research experience who piggy-backed off of a faculty member's standing T-32. That's the only way I know of (at least here), to gain paid research experience through a formalized program if you're not new to the research game. There's always the possibility that OP could gain a paid position in a faculty member's lab. I myself am employed part-time by a faculty member in a research support position. You're right, of course, about the NIH mandate for human applicability. Unless OP could draw some strong parallels between the proposed work and human health outcomes, that would be a no go.

Hold on...we just got an email about this year's funding programs. It's a T-35, not a T-32. My bad. Apologies.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thanks, WTF. I wasn't exactly sure how the T-32 system worked. I could have sworn I had classmates at NCSU who did have substantial research experience who piggy-backed off of a faculty member's standing T-32. That's the only way I know of (at least here), to gain paid research experience through a formalized program if you're not new to the research game. There's always the possibility that OP could gain a paid position in a faculty member's lab. I myself am employed part-time by a faculty member in a research support position. You're right, of course, about the NIH mandate for human applicability. Unless OP could draw some strong parallels between the proposed work and human health outcomes, that would be a no go.

Or you could do what I did and work with a faculty member to write a private foundation grant to acquire funding. Way more work than the summer research stipend applications, but it was super rewarding.


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[WhtsThFrequency]

Hold on...we just got an email about this year's funding programs. It's a T-35, not a T-32. My bad. Apologies.

Ah yes, that explains it. The T35 is for the summer programs for vet students and such, which are still competitive but are short term.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Also not true. Veterinary school is nothing like graduate school, especially for those grad students who completed thesis research. Veterinary school curricula are much more similar to undergrad classes with respect to structure and execution. Graduate school and veterinary school teach very different skills. They're not comparable.

Absolutely. As someone who has experienced both sides of the coin, vet school is very structured and, IMO, easier than a hardcore PhD program by miles.

My PhD is proving harder than vet school or even residency - no question. It requires a completely different mindset - VERY self-driven, requiring a huge degree of innovation. I am going balls to the wall every day. Vet school was a frickin breeze compared to this. I have learned so much more about myself, my work ethic, and my ultimate goals doing this than I ever did in vet school. Not to tout graduate school itself, because I still believe a PhD in the sciences by itself is worth crap in this economy. But it is very different schools of thought.

 

[last_rnd]

Wait...Vet school is "easier" than a PhD??
Well, that's a relief because I didn't think graduate work was that difficult. (Not saying what you are doing is easy, it's all work) The part I had a hard time with was the indentured servant clause.

 

[DVMDream]

Wait...Vet school is "easier" than a PhD??
Well, that's a relief because I didn't think graduate work was that difficult. (Not saying what you are doing is easy, it's all work) The part I had a hard time with was the indentured servant clause.

Yeah, you are still an indentured servant in vet school... you are paying for the "privilege" to be present in vet school... learning and working. You become more of a servant during clinics than you are in lectures. But to some degree, you really are a servant from the beginning.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Wait...Vet school is "easier" than a PhD??
Well, that's a relief because I didn't think graduate work was that difficult. (Not saying what you are doing is easy, it's all work) The part I had a hard time with was the indentured servant clause.

It's easy in that it's fairly mindless the first three years. All you have to do is hunker down and memorize ****. Progression down the path is very straightforward compared to PhD work. For the most part, what you do is fairly standard across all vet schools. (I feel like how "difficult" PhD work depends a lot on the circumstances surrounding your program: exactly where you end up, who your advisor is, and what projects you're on... Not nearly as much on your personal abilities. There's a lot of luck involved).

The amount of memorization you have to complete feels kind of like some
sort of torture. Like you're part of some sort of psychology or clinical neuroscience experiment where they're testing limits of human memory under time and emotional pressure. If you're not good at rote memorization, or have a natural ability to take in a **** ton of info and somehow synthesize meaning and connections between them, you won't do well. Actually, that's not true. Many good rote memorizers, short term memory people, and good test takers will do excellent the first few years just because of how the testing is at most schools. But those skills don't make you a very good doctor unless you can apply it well in practice.

4th year is indentured servitude, but in more of a physical capacity. Having a likeable personality, and emotional endurance helps more than anything else here.




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[Lab Vet]

Wait...Vet school is "easier" than a PhD??
Well, that's a relief because I didn't think graduate work was that difficult. (Not saying what you are doing is easy, it's all work) The part I had a hard time with was the indentured servant clause.

Graduate school (I'm talking PhD level here) is an individualized experience. No two programs (let alone adviser:student pairings) are comparable. If you enter a lab and are handed a project that piggybacks off PI's main grant- sure, there's less struggle there. In this case, the concept has been developed and the troubleshooting is complete. All you've got to do is execute your part of the project, and write it up. The true intellectual challenge comes from devising a completely original concept de novo, unrelated to the PI's main grant. In this case, the design and troubleshooting (let alone the data collection/analysis and writing) are all on you. These tasks can add years to a student's graduate tenure. Why? Because novel projects OFTEN DON'T WORK. This has nothing to do with a student's work ethic or devotion to the task- that's simply the name of the empirical science game. Are you working with cell lines, or 'traditional' animal models (rodents, zebrafish, etc.)? There's a lot of historical information on these platforms to help you out. Try working with non-traditional animal models, or a poorly characterized disease. Historical databases often don't exist- there is no precedent, because you're setting it. Again, developing that background can take years. The rough road in graduate school comes from burnout- too many projects not working, your committee on your back to 'make progress,' and pressure related to funding that no one is getting because the market is flooded with too many good people.

Graduate school and veterinary school are both challenging, in completely different ways. It's an intellectual exercise to characterize one as 'worse' than another. 'Worse' or 'harder' is a function of the student's perspective. I'll tell you this- upon attending graduate school first, veterinary school will often feel like a futile exercise in minutiae, with very little original intellectual contribution. If memorization is your game, veterinary school will feel like less of a challenge. If big picture problem solving is your forte, graduate school will put these skills to use FASTER than veterinary school will. You problem solve in vet school, but not until later in the curriculum. Years 1-3 consist of building the framework that permits you to problem solve. I struggled in graduate school, and find veterinary school challenging. They're both tough. I'm not one of those people that goes around singing the praises of either. Both are a struggle, and both are rewarding.

 

[Lab Vet]

It's easy in that it's fairly mindless the first three years. All you have to do is hunker down and memorize ****. Progression down the path is very straightforward compared to PhD work. For the most part, what you do is fairly standard across all vet schools. (I feel like how "difficult" PhD work depends a lot on the circumstances surrounding your program: exactly where you end up, who your advisor is, and what projects you're on... Not nearly as much on your personal abilities. There's a lot of luck involved).

This is exactly right.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Wait...Vet school is "easier" than a PhD??
Well, that's a relief because I didn't think graduate work was that difficult. (Not saying what you are doing is easy, it's all work) The part I had a hard time with was the indentured servant clause.

The "work" is not difficult. Physical tasks in the lab do not require a large amount of intellectual input.

However, the entire environment and experience is much more difficult in my mind because you're being asked to use a very different part of your brain. You are not having your hand held by professors and being fed information the entire time like you are in vet school. In vet school, you don't have to troubleshoot why your dissection dog did or did not have a liver - it's going to have one. And even if magically it did not, you know that isn't right and would just get another dissection dog. It wouldn't **** up years of your life and make you start over from scratch if your dog didn't have a liver. In PhD terms, when an experiment fails, you need to figure that **** out. Nothing is guaranteed. No one is just going to give you another dog that you know will have one.

Like Minner said, most (not all, but most) of vet school is just memorizing stuff and the path is very set. Everything is laid out for you perfectly, you just have do to the grunt work. A PhD is not nearly so linear and relies much more on your intuitive ability as well as your work ethic. And of course, like LabVet said, every lab is different. I know some people who "coasted" through their PhDs....but most of them had very simplistic lines of research that would be extremely hard to land an independent grant in.

 

[twelvetigers]

I bet it's a bit different for everyone, too. Of course.

 

[last_rnd]

The "work" is not difficult. Physical tasks in the lab do not require a large amount of intellectual input.

However, the entire environment and experience is much more difficult in my mind because you're being asked to use a very different part of your brain. You are not having your hand held by professors and being fed information the entire time like you are in vet school. In vet school, you don't have to troubleshoot why your dissection dog did or did not have a liver - it's going to have one. And even if magically it did not, you know that isn't right and would just get another dissection dog. It wouldn't **** up years of your life and make you start over from scratch if your dog didn't have a liver. In PhD terms, when an experiment fails, you need to figure that **** out. Nothing is guaranteed. No one is just going to give you another dog that you know will have one.

Like Minner said, most (not all, but most) of vet school is just memorizing stuff and the path is very set. Everything is laid out for you perfectly, you just have do to the grunt work. A PhD is not nearly so linear and relies much more on your intuitive ability as well as your work ethic....

Yea I get that. Like I said its the indentured sevitude clause of PhD work that I can't stand. You are at the mercy of your advisor. If they put you on a project that doesn't work it's on you & if you prove to be a valuable asset you about have to chew your own leg off for them to sign off & let you go. It's a marathon for sure.
I like using my brain. Figuring stuff out is my forte. I'm currently well paid for it. It was very difficult in school because there were so many factors that you didn't know to look for or what matters and what doesn't. It makes things much more difficult than they need to be really.
This vet school is 3yrs of mindless brainwashing (which I understand everything in life is to some degree) almost sounds like my own personal hell. I really struggle with the branch of science that says, "and so this happened, but don't ask why because it is easier for us believe in magic than use our brains to reason it out."
Explains a lot of what I see in new graduates.
I learn everything in systems or cycles :/ everything has a connection, that's how I remember huge amounts of material.

My apologies to the op...my identity crisis has hi jacked your thread.

 

[Osudairy]

The "work" is not difficult. Physical tasks in the lab do not require a large amount of intellectual input.

However, the entire environment and experience is much more difficult in my mind because you're being asked to use a very different part of your brain. You are not having your hand held by professors and being fed information the entire time like you are in vet school. In vet school, you don't have to troubleshoot why your dissection dog did or did not have a liver - it's going to have one. And even if magically it did not, you know that isn't right and would just get another dissection dog. It wouldn't **** up years of your life and make you start over from scratch if your dog didn't have a liver. In PhD terms, when an experiment fails, you need to figure that **** out. Nothing is guaranteed. No one is just going to give you another dog that you know will have one.

Like Minner said, most (not all, but most) of vet school is just memorizing stuff and the path is very set. Everything is laid out for you perfectly, you just have do to the grunt work. A PhD is not nearly so linear and relies much more on your intuitive ability as well as your work ethic. And of course, like LabVet said, every lab is different. I know some people who "coasted" through their PhDs....but most of them had very simplistic lines of research that would be extremely hard to land an independent grant in.

I have heard this a few times about grad school vs. vet school. Coming from grad school myself, I have to agree with this. My adviser believes that students do as much on their own as possible and get more out of their experience than a student that gets told what to do all the time. If you have poor organization, you're screwed. I do like the idea of knowing exactly what needs to be done in vet school and there is structure. It will be a nice change.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yea I get that. Like I said its the indentured sevitude clause of PhD work that I can't stand. You are at the mercy of your advisor. If they put you on a project that doesn't work it's on you & if you prove to be a valuable asset you about have to chew your own leg off for them to sign off & let you go. It's a marathon for sure.
I like using my brain. Figuring stuff out is my forte. I'm currently well paid for it. It was very difficult in school because there were so many factors that you didn't know to look for or what matters and what doesn't. It makes things much more difficult than they need to be really.
This vet school is 3yrs of mindless brainwashing (which I understand everything in life is to some degree) almost sounds like my own personal hell. I really struggle with the branch of science that says, "and so this happened, but don't ask why because it is easier for us believe in magic than use our brains to reason it out."
Explains a lot of what I see in new graduates.
I learn everything in systems or cycles :/ everything has a connection, that's how I remember huge amounts of material.

My apologies to the op...my identity crisis has hi jacked your thread.

Oh, absolutely. Vet school does have more freedom in that respect.

Of course, how much of a "servant" versus a "mentee" you are also depends on your advisor, like others have said. I spent the first 2 years of my PhD being abused and micromanaged to death in an absolutely toxic lab. When things didn't work, blame was immediately (and publicly) assigned. People were stuck there for 5+ years trying to meet his publication requirements; the only way to get out of them was to join his private company and he would agree to graduate you (rumored, but most likely true based on things I saw). It was hell.

My current advisor is like the evil (good?) twin of the former - he basically lets me drive the projects myself, is determined to get me out on time, and trusts me to do my own work. It's been an absolutely wonderful experience and change. I seriously love this lab enough that part of me almost considered trying to stay on as a postdoc for him (but alas, I need a real job

I have heard this a few times about grad school vs. vet school. Coming from grad school myself, I have to agree with this. My adviser believes that students do as much on their own as possible and get more out of their experience than a student that gets told what to do all the time. If you have poor organization, you're screwed. I do like the idea of knowing exactly what needs to be done in vet school and there is structure. It will be a nice change.

).

That is very true. My "new" lab is much smaller and poorer than my first lab, but I have learned much, MUCH more since coming here than I ever did at the other one.