Ending student loan forgiveness for congressional staffers? Students next?

[deleted480308]

Ok. I think the gap here is you think it's easy to get a STEM degree for poor people. I have a real world example for you. My school is in a rich area. The urban school districts here have no STEM programs. We have tours and mentoring to the STEM students at our local high school. When we suggested some outreach opportunities to undereducated areas, we were shot down. #Merica. #Underserved. #$$$

STEM degrees aren't like being an astronaut. You can get an AA with reasonable grades and transfer into a state school STEM bachelors...this is not remotely impossible

you undersell the ability of someone to accomplish something if they want it

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PL198]

I'd just settle for equal education from k-12. You know, that costs money as well.

K-12 is babysitting, with small factoids gained along the way.

 

[NontradCA]

STEM degrees aren't like being an astronaut. You can get an AA with reasonable grades and transfer into a state school STEM bachelors...this is not remotely impossible

you undersell the ability of someone to accomplish something if they want it

How do you get a STEM degree without knowing what one is?

 

[engmedpt]

Huh. There's like 1000 people doing that and being successful. That's not even a blip on the radar.

Correct. The comment was more of a joke. Clearly a poor one. That 1000 is nothing compared to our awesome college graduates leaving in a few days.

The world needs ditch diggers . My janitor doesn't need a liberal arts degree. If you're dumb enough to get stupid amounts of debt without obtaining anything of value, then no I don't feel any sympathy for you.

I feel some sympathy since an english degree a generation ago gave you an edge since degrees weren't overproliferated and devalued and you could get a job for "being educated".....those parents pass on the same life trajectory to their kids sometimes who listen to their authoritative figure for guidance.

They didn't kill the system. It never existed in the first place.

Do you honestly believe that there are a lot of people who change their socioeconomic status throughout their lives?

No I dont. College is a generally accepted myth that is a system that unfortunately is one of the main factors that employers with degrees a generation ago use to evaluate competency........it is an incredibly outdated system when considering the degrees still offered and the dynamic change of the workplace. You are currently going through a system to reach your goal. Its a societal construct. Obviously it didn't exist at first.

Of course ppl don't change their socioeconomic status.

A well chosen education is absolutely a way out of poverty. Get a STEM degree and you can do quite well, get a poetry degree and your odds drop.

I do think that government should get out of the game and private money would gladly loan for degrees with good prospects...but they aren't out of the game, so everyone can have a loan for whatever they want

Amen to first paragraph.

yes college is the answer to all our problems

more college, everyone should go to college. womens studies, pottery, poetry, music appreciation, art theory, hell whatever you want, just go to college

Agreed on the sarcasm

Ok. I think the gap here is you think it's easy to get a STEM degree for poor people. I have a real world example for you. My school is in a rich area. The urban school districts here have no STEM programs. We have tours and mentoring to the STEM students at our local high school. When we suggested some outreach opportunities to undereducated areas, we were shot down. #Merica. #Underserved. #$$$

There is validity to this statement

 

[NontradCA]

K-12 is babysitting, with small factoids gained along the way.

Great.

 

[deleted480308]

How do you get a STEM degree without knowing what one is?

if you are suggesting that people in poverty don't know that scientists, engineers and doctors make money or are unable to google, "jobs that pay the most money".....then you are being disingenuous

 

[PL198]

if you are suggesting that people in poverty don't know that scientists, engineers and doctors make money or are unable to google, "jobs that pay the most money".....then you are being disingenuous

that would require effort, which is something the poor people shouldn't ever have to exert. they should just have 100k fall into their lap, solely for existing

 

[NontradCA]

if you are suggesting that people in poverty don't know that scientists, engineers and doctors make money or are unable to google, "jobs that pay the most money".....then you are being disingenuous

Knowing a scientist, engineer, and a doctor make good money is not the same as knowing you can do it.

 

[deleted480308]

Knowing a scientist, engineer, and a doctor make good money is not the same as knowing you can do it.

self-esteem is not a function of government...sorry

 

[NontradCA]

self-esteem is not a function of government...sorry

It's not a matter of self esteem at all. It's a matter of knowledge. It's a matter of options. You are in a box man, and this conversation is going nowhere. Adios.

 

[engmedpt]

if you are suggesting that people in poverty don't know that scientists, engineers and doctors make money or are unable to google, "jobs that pay the most money".....then you are being disingenuous

that would require effort, which is something the poor people shouldn't ever have to exert. they should just have 100k fall into their lap, solely for existing

What if they are born into the ghetto and they cannot afford computers. Their only frame of reference and culture is based on perhaps a rough community around themselves that values things outside of traditional K12 education.

Take a moment to envision your world view from this perspective

 

[deleted480308]

What if they are born into the ghetto and they cannot afford computers. Their only frame of reference and culture is based on perhaps a rough community around themselves that values things outside of traditional K12 education.

Take a moment to envision your world view from this perspective

I worked in the ghetto with teens, they know what jobs pay well and thry know college is the way to get to most of them. They're poor, not stupid

 

[PL198]

What if they are born into the ghetto and they cannot afford computers. Their only frame of reference and culture is based on perhaps a rough community around themselves that values things outside of traditional K12 education.

Take a moment to envision your world view from this perspective

public libraries

envision it from the perspective that poor people aren't crippled.

 

[engmedpt]

I worked in the ghetto with teens, they know what jobs pay well and thry know college is the way to get to most of them. They're poor, not stupid

Are they also aware of the debt currently tacked on to college and "higher education?" It has been said on here repeatedly that college is not necessary for education....HOWEVER, if your worldview and the people around you constantly tell you that it is and you are surrounded by a community with low socioeconomic status and value systems that are not directed at education then where does that leave you?

You are someone struggling to survive in a violent culture, the solution to which is college.....which has become something almost only for the rich. Can they get scholarships? Of course. But what about those who can't cut an SAT score or juke hard in a sport.....while a middle class family may be able to cut their children a check, a poor family cannot.....the odds are stacked against them. Let's also not forget to mention the fact that the education system has become a predatory monster that will funnel people through an "education" telling them they are doing everything right when they end up leaving and work a minimum wage job....but. but. but. I was the first in my family to go to college Dad? What happened? Why did I get lied to?

You are a med student. Let's put compare this to yourself currently. At the age of 18 were you aware that medical schools boast 3% acceptance rates? Were you aware that you would have a mortgage in debt? Were aware that the healthcare system is absurdly bureaucratic and a massive pyramid scheme which in a lot of cases operates well but in many others fosters a culture of superiority and spitting on each other's professions or specialties in a pissing contest......rather than focusing on collaboration where each worker knows their place? Were you aware that if your application was not accepted that you would have to use your fallback degree which sadly, means working a 13/hr job with a stem degree many times? Yes, I'm completing a stem degree right next to my peers going MD while I go DPT and am sad to see those who didn't make their goal actually getting paid that amount as research associates.

Let's step back.....most likely....you were unaware of all of those realizations. You make one stride in life and a curtain pulls away and you see the reality of what you only perceived in your head. Apply that to the poor. The odds are stacked against them as they try to elevate themselves from a perhaps negative culture to get to higher education which is more and more becoming a poor investment. Do they see the whole picture? No, they don't. No damn human being growing up in America does. If you insinuate that they do then you are naïve and not able to empathize with their situation.

public libraries

envision it from the perspective that poor people aren't crippled.

that would require effort, which is something the poor people shouldn't ever have to exert. they should just have 100k fall into their lap, solely for existing

You do an excellent job of jumping to absurd statements in a somewhat serious manner. You also clearly hint from your statements that you are a very privileged, narcisstic child that didn't struggle financially and has no problem condemning an entire demographic by a stereotype.

 

[deleted480308]

Are they also aware of the debt currently tacked on to college and "higher education?" It has been said on here repeatedly that college is not necessary for education....HOWEVER, if your worldview and the people around you constantly tell you that it is and you are surrounded by a community with low socioeconomic status and value systems that are not directed at education then where does that leave you?

You are someone struggling to survive in a violent culture, the solution to which is college.....which has become something almost only for the rich. Can they get scholarships? Of course. But what about those who can't cut an SAT score or juke hard in a sport.....while a middle class family may be able to cut their children a check, a poor family cannot.....the odds are stacked against them. Let's also not forget to mention the fact that the education system has become a predatory monster that will funnel people through an "education" telling them they are doing everything right when they end up leaving and work a minimum wage job....but. but. but. I was the first in my family to go to college Dad? What happened? Why did I get lied to?

You are a med student. Let's put compare this to yourself currently. At the age of 18 were you aware that medical schools boast 3% acceptance rates? Were you aware that you would have a mortgage in debt? Were aware that the healthcare system is absurdly bureaucratic and a massive pyramid scheme which in a lot of cases operates well but in many others fosters a culture of superiority and spitting on each other's professions or specialties in a pissing contest......rather than focusing on collaboration where each worker knows their place? Were you aware that if your application was not accepted that you would have to use your fallback degree which sadly, means working a 13/hr job with a stem degree? Yes, I'm completing a stem degree right next to my peers going MD while I go DPT and am sad to see those who didn't make their goal actually getting paid that amount as research associates.

Let's step back.....most likely....you were unaware of all of those realizations. You make one stride in life and a curtain pulls away and you see the reality of what you only perceived in your head. Apply that to the poor. The odds are stacked against them as they try to elevate themselves from a perhaps negative culture to get to higher education which is more and more becoming the biggest scam in history. Do they see the whole picture? No, they don't. No damn human being growing up in America does. If you insinuate that they do then you are naïve and not able to empathize with their situation.





You do an excellent job of jumping to absurd statements in a somewhat serious manner. You also clearly hint from your statements that you are a very privileged, narcisstic child that didn't struggle financially and has no problem condemning an entire demographic by a stereotype.

Anyone making $13 with a bachelors chose their bachelors poorly...anyone can afford a bachelors with fafsa

 

[Mad Jack]

College does not equal education, nor does it equal unemployment. I've got a lot of friends that went to technical school, went through apprenticeships, or joined the military that did just fine. Some people are even quite successful- there's one guy I know that is a senior foreman pulling over 100k a year, a trucker that made a fortune doing hazmat and Iraq War operations, a guy that started his own brewery and is making a hell of a lot of money, etc. There is a maximum number of the population that need to be educated at the college level, as there are only so many jobs that require a college degree. The most common job in the entire nation is being a trucker, which takes a 6-8 week course and can net you a 40k salary to start. The second and third most common jobs are secretarial and service sector work, neither of which require a college degree. Welders, pipefitters, construction workers, HVAC techs, plumbers, electricians, factory workers, farmers- you don't need a college degree to do any of their work, and all of these jobs both net a decent pay and are required for a functional society. This is why most European countries track people early on, pushing them either toward college or toward a trade, because society needs both.

Low personal income is rarely a barrier for entry-level training in the trades, and functions as no barrier at all to a college education, given the guaranteed nature of federal student loans and the broad access and affordability of state colleges.

 

[engmedpt]

Anyone making $13 with a bachelors chose their bachelors poorly...anyone can afford a bachelors with fafsa

False. biology major with enough lab work and outside academia "experience" to hop into biotech and typical clinical positions that should pay 40-50k entry level.

How does this one sound? Chemical engineering without hiring opportunities for months....the option being some awesome unpaid internships for "experience."

You make a great statement. I agree with you. Completely. I made plenty of backup plans.....poor judgment in selecting a degree is rampant.

however, I believe you are considerably out of touch with how hiring has been working recently. Sources have said this cycle of grads will be faring better. We shall see.

Just curious....I assume you went directly undergrad to med correct? You didn't have to fight in the job market the last few years? If so, then I'm assuming wrong.

 

[PL198]

13/hr =!= 40-50k a year.

 

[engmedpt]

13/hr =!= 40-50k a year.

There are two possibilities here. Either you can't do correct math or you read too fast and wanted to place a comment as quickly as possible without thinking. I'm going to assume its the latter.

I stated someone was being paid 13/hr when the degree and outside laboratory work should have pulled an entry level 40-50k salary. Reading comprehension. It's rather important.

 

[W19]

Reward success, you get success. Reward failure, you get failure.

I will use that as a bumper sticker... I did not know feeding the hungry was rewarding them. Great to know! No more freaking charity...

 

[W19]

Do people really need an explanation for that? Here in FL, if you don't live in an upper middle class or wealthy neighborhood, you will most likely go to a ****ty school. We all know once you are behind, it's hard to catch up--especially in reading.

 

[W19]

College does not equal education, nor does it equal unemployment.

Yeah, except that unemployment for college grad is <3% now... and lifetime earning for people with degree is a lot more than the ones who don't have a degree. Of course there are exception, but lets not use these exceptions as if they are the norm.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, except that unemployment for college grad is <3% now... and lifetime earning for people with degree is a lot more than the ones who don't have a degree. Of course there are exception, but lets not use these exceptions as if they are the norm.

The trouble with those studies is that they are black and white. It's only "people with a degree" and "people without a degree." If you split it into, "people with a degree," "people who have completed a technical school education," "people that have completed high school," and "people that have not completed high school," I guarantee it would look much different.

 

[W19]

Do you really believe that someone with a technical school education has the opportunity to move up the ladder in most companies?

 

[NickNaylor]

Do you really believe that someone with a technical school education has the opportunity to move up the ladder in most companies?

Who said you have to go work for a company or climb the corporate ladder to have a decent lifestyle? If you're a trained plumber/electrician/tradesman, what's to stop you from starting your own outfit?

A quick Google search for the median salaries of plumbers and electricians are ~$42k and ~$44k respectively. These aren't the people that are going to be destitute.

 

[NickNaylor]

-Assumes economic decline necessarily results in low personal income as well as the converse: that economic growth results in higher personal incomes. If you look at historical trends, you'll see this isn't the case.

-"No funds for school" - huh? In what realm? Ivy League schools are all but begging for impoverished students to come to them with financial gifts. Even if you end up going to a community college or a state university, you will be able to secure government funding to pay for education.

-Assumes that expensive post-secondary education is required to be successful. This isn't necessarily true. See the discussions above about trade schools and the myriad of other training pathways that don't require hugely expensive degrees to achieve the ability to sustain yourself.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything to help the poor. What I am saying is that I think treating the poor as though they're incapable, inept, and unable to save themselves is both arrogant and not helpful. Being successful requires ambition, creativity, and intrinsic motivation. If you lack those things, you're unlikely to be successful regardless of your circumstances.

 

[BobbyB]

Lower class Americans are in a cycle of poverty, and they feel they're trapped. I can understand how someone feeling this way would relish in the idea of the infrastructure burning.

Yea Pakis can make it into med school. So can a lot of other immigrants. It's easy. You know why? Because we don't give a **** about Americans in our country. And it's sad as hell.

the key word is "feel"

we give them food, we give them housing, we give them free K-12 education, we give them public libraries, we give them loans

what do they give us? burnt cities

the lower class doesn't care about intelligent, hard working Americans

they got more opportunities and aid than most people in the third world and they pissed it all away

you can't help those who don't help themselves

America doesn't exist for the sole purpose of giving free stuff to the lower class. America is a land of great opportunity for the people willing to work hard. that is the American Dream and it is alive and well

I am grateful everyday that I could be an American citizen and have access to such opportunities. The lower class in America were extremely lucky to be born citizens of this great country and instead of taking advantage of it, they burned and looted the land i love.

 

[BobbyB]

STEM degrees aren't like being an astronaut. You can get an AA with reasonable grades and transfer into a state school STEM bachelors...this is not remotely impossible

you undersell the ability of someone to accomplish something if they want it

u can be a RN with a AA

the median salary for a registered nurse is $66,220

 

[FA5297]

The lower class in America were extremely lucky to be born citizens of this great country and instead of taking advantage of it, they burned and looted the land i love.

What insight into the complexities of race, class, and economic opportunity. Have you considered academia?

 

[BobbyB]

What insight into the complexities of race, class, and economic opportunity. Have you considered academia?

thanks

i can't go into academia because i tell the truth instead of pandering for funding

 

[deleted480308]

False. biology major with enough lab work and outside academia "experience" to hop into biotech and typical clinical positions that should pay 40-50k entry level.

How does this one sound? Chemical engineering without hiring opportunities for months....the option being some awesome unpaid internships for "experience."

You make a great statement. I agree with you. Completely. I made plenty of backup plans.....poor judgment in selecting a degree is rampant.

however, I believe you are considerably out of touch with how hiring has been working recently. Sources have said this cycle of grads will be faring better. We shall see.

Just curious....I assume you went directly undergrad to med correct? You didn't have to fight in the job market the last few years? If so, then I'm assuming wrong.

I worked two different careers as a college dropout before returning to a community college to complete my prereqs at night while working. I started med school in my 30's.

This is a topic I know pretty freaking well. And if you have multiple friends making so much less than they "should" make in a field either they are bad at applying or you are wrong about what the "should" number is

 

[NontradCA]

-Assumes economic decline necessarily results in low personal income as well as the converse: that economic growth results in higher personal incomes. If you look at historical trends, you'll see this isn't the case.

-"No funds for school" - huh? In what realm? Ivy League schools are all but begging for impoverished students to come to them with financial gifts. Even if you end up going to a community college or a state university, you will be able to secure government funding to pay for education.

-Assumes that expensive post-secondary education is required to be successful. This isn't necessarily true. See the discussions above about trade schools and the myriad of other training pathways that don't require hugely expensive degrees to achieve the ability to sustain yourself.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything to help the poor. What I am saying is that I think treating the poor as though they're incapable, inept, and unable to save themselves is both arrogant and not helpful. Being successful requires ambition, creativity, and intrinsic motivation. If you lack those things, you're unlikely to be successful regardless of your circumstances.

You ignore the fact that K-12 education requires money. Money to live in a good school district with updated books, for instance. There are no mentors in urban areas, and I'm not sure why you think landing an apprenticeship is an easy task.

 

[engmedpt]

Do people really need an explanation for that? Here in FL, if you don't live in an upper middle class or wealthy neighborhood, you will most likely go to a ****ty school. We all know once you are behind, it's hard to catch up--especially in reading.

^On point.

 

[PL198]

Do you really believe that someone with a technical school education has the opportunity to move up the ladder in most companies?

move up the ladder? we're talking about making an honest wage and having an average standard of loving. that requires 0 moving up the ladder.

inb4 this argument devolves into " tech school people can't make as much as doctors, so they're underprivileged"

 

[NickNaylor]

You ignore the fact that K-12 education requires money. Money to live in a good school district with updated books, for instance. There are no mentors in urban areas, and I'm not sure why you think landing an apprenticeship is an easy task.

"No mentors in urban areas?" Really? In densely populated areas there's absolutely no one for people to use as role models? I find that pretty hard to believe as a generalized statement.

I'll tell you how to land an apprenticeship: "I'll work for half the rate of a normal _________ and in return I will provide an extra set of hands and would like to learn the trade." Adjust your rate to whatever to get you hired. This may even require working for free or at a cheap rate until you develop skills.

The point is, though, that we continue to find excuses for why people can't succeed. If it's not one thing it's something else. Unfortunately the "urban youth" seem to generally lack intact families (see divorce rates in minority populations, which are generally concentrated in urban areas) and an emphasis on education (see performance on just about any academic assessment) as the key to escaping poverty. It is, in my mind, a cultural problem. It is less so a problem of oppression and more so a problem of supporting your family even to the detriment of yourself and believing in education as the path to mobility. Those things will not be corrected by throwing more money at the problem, nor will it be addressed by taxing the wealthy, nor will it be addressed with "updated books." To sum it up, there is, I think, a significant lack of ambition and the ability to persevere. Combine that with "oppression" and a mindset of learned helplessness and believing "you're the victim" (of what I might ask) and you are left with social stagnation.

 

[Iso4ane]

What if they are born into the ghetto and they cannot afford computers. Their only frame of reference and culture is based on perhaps a rough community around themselves that values things outside of traditional K12 education.

Take a moment to envision your world view from this perspective

Can't afford computer, but can afford iPhone, large screen TV, and a Xbox...I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen that.

 

[Iso4ane]

"No mentors in urban areas?" Really? In densely populated areas there's absolutely no one for people to use as role models? I find that pretty hard to believe as a generalized statement.

I'll tell you how to land an apprenticeship: "I'll work for half the rate of a normal _________ and in return I will provide an extra set of hands and would like to learn the trade." Adjust your rate to whatever to get you hired. This may even require working for free or at a cheap rate until you develop skills.

The point is, though, that we continue to find excuses for why people can't succeed. If it's not one thing it's something else. Unfortunately the "urban youth" seem to generally lack intact families (see divorce rates in minority populations, which are generally concentrated in urban areas) and an emphasis on education (see performance on just about any academic assessment) as the key to escaping poverty. It is, in my mind, a cultural problem. It is less so a problem of oppression and more so a problem of supporting your family even to the detriment of yourself and believing in education as the path to mobility. Those things will not be corrected by throwing more money at the problem, nor will it be addressed by taxing the wealthy, nor will it be addressed with "updated books." To sum it up, there is, I think, a significant lack of ambition and the ability to persevere. Combine that with "oppression" and a mindset of learned helplessness and believing "you're the victim" (of what I might ask) and you are left with social stagnation.

I thought that is how apprenticeship worked. And kinda on the same lines, isn't residency kind of like an apprenticeship, I understand residents get paid and treated like ****, but have you seen an apprentice who hasn't.

 

[PL198]

"No mentors in urban areas?" Really? In densely populated areas there's absolutely no one for people to use as role models? I find that pretty hard to believe as a generalized statement.

I'll tell you how to land an apprenticeship: "I'll work for half the rate of a normal _________ and in return I will provide an extra set of hands and would like to learn the trade." Adjust your rate to whatever to get you hired. This may even require working for free or at a cheap rate until you develop skills.

The point is, though, that we continue to find excuses for why people can't succeed. If it's not one thing it's something else. Unfortunately the "urban youth" seem to generally lack intact families (see divorce rates in minority populations, which are generally concentrated in urban areas) and an emphasis on education (see performance on just about any academic assessment) as the key to escaping poverty. It is, in my mind, a cultural problem. It is less so a problem of oppression and more so a problem of supporting your family even to the detriment of yourself and believing in education as the path to mobility. Those things will not be corrected by throwing more money at the problem, nor will it be addressed by taxing the wealthy, nor will it be addressed with "updated books." To sum it up, there is, I think, a significant lack of ambition and the ability to persevere. Combine that with "oppression" and a mindset of learned helplessness and believing "you're the victim" (of what I might ask) and you are left with social stagnation.

drops mic

 

[ktran17]

I really can't comprehend how some people choose to believe social mobility is completely stagnant or border line impossible, especially during the 21st century. Almost anything you could ever want is found on the internet. That's how I got to where I am today. I didn't sulk and point fingers at the big bad "rich" guys. What I did was work hard, chose my career carefully, and most importantly took advantage of the many opportunities afforded to me by this great nation. There are tons of social programs that can equip a student from a lower SES to obtain middle class life at the minimum. FAFSA, military, fee waivers galore, unlimited access to educational loans, etc. It is up to the individual to have the drive and tenacity to want to get out of poverty. I achieved the American Dream and so did many other people before me. There is no magical formula, legislation, or easy fix. The only way out of poverty is hard work.

 

[Psai]

I really can't comprehend how some people choose to believe social mobility is completely stagnant or border line impossible, especially during the 21st century. Almost anything you could ever want is found on the internet. That's how I got to where I am today. I didn't sulk and point fingers at the big bad "rich" guys. What I did was work hard, chose my career carefully, and most importantly took advantage of the many opportunities afforded to me by this great nation. There are tons of social programs that can equip a student from a lower SES to obtain middle class life at the minimum. FAFSA, military, fee waivers galore, unlimited access to educational loans, etc. It is up to the individual to have the drive and tenacity to want to get out of poverty. I achieved the American Dream and so did many other people before me. There is no magical formula, legislation, or easy fix. The only way out of poverty is hard work.

get this garbage out of here
my family made it out of poverty. it's much harder than you think

 

[ktran17]

get this garbage out of here
my family made it out of poverty. it's much harder than you think

There's no thinking involved. I lived through it as well. No one is saying it's easy, but let's not pretend like it's impossible.

 

[deleted480308]

get this garbage out of here
my family made it out of poverty. it's much harder than you think

soooooooo, you're admitting a family can go from poverty to physician in one generation. that's an example of what we have been saying

 

[FA5297]

First, lets quantify social mobility, so the entire discussion isn't about anecdotes:
http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/

Second, lets remind ourselves of why the program exists: to create incentives for highly educated but high-debt professionals to take low-paying public service jobs (i.e. non-profit or state jobs). An example might be a lawyer from a top 10 law school, with $200,000 of debt, taking a public defender/ prosecutor job (salary $35,000) instead of the corporate law job (salary $150,000). This program isn't about social mobility, its about allowing the poor to access high-quality professionals.

Third, there are serious incentive problems with loan forgiveness. Federal exposure to student loan debt now tops a trillion dollars, which is more than the entire country's credit card debt. Schools have little incentive to control price, especially if most loans are federal, and worst-case scenario could be forgiven by working at a non-profit. To see how one law school took glorious advantage of this, see here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...law-gets-uncle-sam-to-pay-its-students-bills/

Finally, public service loan forgiveness is arguably being taken advantage of by doctors. Because we can claim residency as part of our 10 year repayment period (most hospitals are non-profits, and most for-profit hospitals create a separate non-profit entity to pay residents), those with longer residencies could get their loans forgiven merely while investing in their education to improve later profitability (ex. "I'll do a 7 year residency + fellowship, then only have 3 years of real service before getting 200k + forgiven).

 

[deleted480308]

First, lets quantify social mobility, so the entire discussion isn't about anecdotes:
http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/

Second, lets remind ourselves of why the program exists: to create incentives for highly educated but high-debt professionals to take low-paying public service jobs (i.e. non-profit or state jobs). An example might be a lawyer from a top 10 law school, with $200,000 of debt, taking a public defender/ prosecutor job (salary $35,000) instead of the corporate law job (salary $150,000). This program isn't about social mobility, its about allowing the poor to access high-quality professionals.

Third, there are serious incentive problems with loan forgiveness. Federal exposure to student loan debt now tops a trillion dollars, which is more than the entire country's credit card debt. Schools have little incentive to control price, especially if most loans are federal, and worst-case scenario could be forgiven by working at a non-profit. To see how one law school took glorious advantage of this, see here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...law-gets-uncle-sam-to-pay-its-students-bills/

Finally, public service loan forgiveness is arguably being taken advantage of by doctors. Because we can claim residency as part of our 10 year repayment period (most hospitals are non-profits, and most for-profit hospitals create a separate non-profit entity to pay residents), those with longer residencies could get their loans forgiven merely while investing in their education to improve later profitability (ex. "I'll do a 7 year residency + fellowship, then only have 3 years of real service before getting 200k + forgiven).

Pslf shouldn't exist but the reason isn't social mobility

Our ranking in social mobility is irrelevant

 

[BlackBox]

STEM degrees aren't like being an astronaut. You can get an AA with reasonable grades and transfer into a state school STEM bachelors...this is not remotely impossible

you undersell the ability of someone to accomplish something if they want it

Agreed.

I'm a highschool drop out that had zero STEM knowledge going into my first undergraduate institution (a community college)- In fact, I had never seen the STEM acronym until I applied to med school.

If you're motivated and dedicate yourself to the program, you can get through it. An AA in Bio is simply memorizing a bunch of facts. If you want it bad enough, you'll get through it. Now, what does one do with an AA in Bio? Not really sure.

 

[engmedpt]

First, lets quantify social mobility, so the entire discussion isn't about anecdotes:
http://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/

Second, lets remind ourselves of why the program exists: to create incentives for highly educated but high-debt professionals to take low-paying public service jobs (i.e. non-profit or state jobs). An example might be a lawyer from a top 10 law school, with $200,000 of debt, taking a public defender/ prosecutor job (salary $35,000) instead of the corporate law job (salary $150,000). This program isn't about social mobility, its about allowing the poor to access high-quality professionals.

Third, there are serious incentive problems with loan forgiveness. Federal exposure to student loan debt now tops a trillion dollars, which is more than the entire country's credit card debt. Schools have little incentive to control price, especially if most loans are federal, and worst-case scenario could be forgiven by working at a non-profit. To see how one law school took glorious advantage of this, see here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...law-gets-uncle-sam-to-pay-its-students-bills/

Finally, public service loan forgiveness is arguably being taken advantage of by doctors. Because we can claim residency as part of our 10 year repayment period (most hospitals are non-profits, and most for-profit hospitals create a separate non-profit entity to pay residents), those with longer residencies could get their loans forgiven merely while investing in their education to improve later profitability (ex. "I'll do a 7 year residency + fellowship, then only have 3 years of real service before getting 200k + forgiven).

Actually 1.3 trillion plus.