Dropping out

[KHE]

I'm glad you think I am an expert I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks too highly of themselves for no worthy reason. I do understand the difference between gross/net and it might just have been a communication error in my previous posts. The fact that you are so hesitant on nit picking these details shows that...well, you can answer this for yourself....

That's ridiculous. Those details that you speak of are the difference between a personal income of $150,000 and $450,000. That's not "nitpicking details."

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[KHE]

It's not that simple...there are many things an OD can do to make his income higher. The od who deducts lease payments for his f-car as a business expense also pays his wife an annual salary of $60k for being an office manager Mind you, his wife rarely does anything (I've been working at this practice for a year and a half and she doesn't do much) I haven't completely grasped the concept of expenses/interest and how that can increase your salary but its pretty cool how you can appear to make less but you actually end up making more. The doc who i shadowed/work for has emphasized this a lot...having a business is pretty much wonderful..it's way better than working for someone else/hospital. Also, ods arent in the same income brackets as employees...they have their own bracket as they operate a business for which they deduct taxes and are granted large exemptions...though I'm not clear about this just yet.

(

Yes, having a business does allow for certain expenses to be paid for by the business that you would otherwise have to pay for personally. Cell phone, for example. My business pays for my cellphone. Travel and entertainment can be run through a business. If you go to a conference in Vegas for 5 days but the conference was only three days long.....hmmmmmmm....... You're supposed to declare that but I don't think most business owners do.

But that just saves a few bucks on taxes. It's not like this whole other massive income stream. You have to be careful with that. You can be as aggressive as your accountant is comfortable being because God knows there's a lot of grey area there.

 

[pinipig523]

I'm really glad that you're asking this...it's like a self-exploration exercise regarding my future career sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was fighting ha!

For one, I think medicine requires more time and more debt to complete. This I think is unarguable.

Another thing, it requires much more work to get into medical school. Personally, I'm hovering around a 3.7 gpa right now, but I think I may very well do awful on the MCAT. And then the whole application cycle is pretty crazy argh. And then residency with 80 hour work week schedules....also, the academic work may also be more difficult in medical school compared to optometry school...

Also, medicine seems to be very stressful...though the job may only be a standard 40hr week, you will be dealing with a lot of stuff that you wouldn't be dealing with in Optometry. I twisted my ankle a couple years back playing competitive soccer. It was pretty bad. I had to go to the ER and wait for the em doc. I asked him if he could write me a note of absence from school and he told me he had no time because two patients were literally dying on him He also looked very stressed and unpleasant....obviously this is not the case with every field of specialization, but the stress is just there because mds play a vital role and are basically the primary doctors. I donno if I want to sign up for that.

I think these are the main points...as an md the pay is more attractive, but in the long run, the od has the opportunity of making as much if not more than the md counterpart....I know this because of my extensive shadowing with optometrists.

I have to go to work now so I'll get back to this thread later but I'll just add some quick points:

1. All those tax deductions you mention - you can easily do that in quite a few parts of MD... it's called PRIVATE PRACTICE. Even as an ER physician, if you work as an independent contractor - you can label yourself as a corporation/LLC. You can deduct everything a private business can. From cell phone use to cars used for business (NO ONE can deduct an Ferrari... that's plain stupid and asking for trouble... meaning steep penalties and jail time).

2. Stress depends on the field. Yes, there are certain fields that are a bit more stressful than others but they're not all like that. ER (my field) may be particularly stressful at times, but those times also drive your adrenalin and give you a sort of "high". Other fields like PMR, FP, general IM, ortho, sports medicine (and a few more)... they are NOT stressful at all. No one dying really shows up to those fields (in general).

3. That thing about MCATs and residency and that whole crazy application process and med school? That type of a hurdle is what makes MD such a satisfying career choice. Like many of your attending optometrists say - it's not so easy to just pop open MD schools and have a surplus of graduates. The number of graduates is limited by the amount of residents the federal government (GME) pays for, the number of medical schools limited by medicare, and the gross difficulty of medicine in general (from MCATS to medical school to residency).

But what you get from all that difficulty is a niche.

Example, I was able to get 3 jobs (all high paying, more than 3.5x the average retail OD) in this recession market. All are FT jobs (not part time). And of those 3 jobs I got, I had a 100% success rate in the job hunt (meaning I really only pursued 3 jobs).

I think you need to really re-evaluate why you choose a particular field. Choose it not because it's easier to get through or get into, not because of tax reimbursements, or stress levels of particular specialties (since you can go into any other specialty).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jason K]

I'm becomming more and more convinced that you are the same imeily/opt123 that was kicked off before. I just can't believe we have another ignorant student spouting the same nonsense crap over and over.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. She may be back as a man, but the "thoughts" are unmistakable for anyone else. Who's next, Louis Pasteur? Nikola Tesla? Niels Bohr? I'm sure Gregor is rolling over in his grave.

 

[DawgOD]

I wish there were most posts on this forum about how to maximize private practice potential & how optometrist can bring back the value of private practice....


All this bickering is pointless in regards to how much OD's make..

I do have a question to all the OD's though.. do you all have your own personal accountant? or do you try to take care of that yourself? how much should you pay your accountant if you do have one?

 

[KHE]

I wish there were most posts on this forum about how to maximize private practice potential & how optometrist can bring back the value of private practice....


All this bickering is pointless in regards to how much OD's make..

I do have a question to all the OD's though.. do you all have your own personal accountant? or do you try to take care of that yourself? how much should you pay your accountant if you do have one?

Start a new thread and post your questions. This thread is a disaster.

 

[CL Doc]

I wish there were most posts on this forum about how to maximize private practice potential & how optometrist can bring back the value of private practice....


All this bickering is pointless in regards to how much OD's make..

I do have a question to all the OD's though.. do you all have your own personal accountant? or do you try to take care of that yourself? how much should you pay your accountant if you do have one?

This will only happen when students will be humble about what they don't know, show some respect for those of us who have actually done it, and not be so irritating with their posts.

I'd be happy to share info about running a business, but there is a handful of irritating know it all students who hijack any useful thread with their ignorant opinions. This is a two way street, you can't come on here with claims of ODs making a million dollar net, then get all bent out of shape when someone corrects you and expect us to spend time trying to educate you.

If I make a post about malpractice I'll bet there are two or three pre opt students and a first year OD student that will take over the thread and show us all what they don't know.

This could be a source of useful information, but not when every thread becomes a discussion of why students want to justify their choice of profession.

I have been in practice for 20 years, made plenty of money, and owned several businesses, but there are several students who will challenge anything I post on here.

I would never hire anyone who has the kind of attitude I see on this forum.

 

[Shnurek]

If I make a post about malpractice I'll bet there are two or three pre opt students and a first year OD student that will take over the thread and show us all what they don't know.

Well after all this forum IS called "student doctor forum". That's great that you contribute to this forum but you have to realize most of us ARE still ignorant and challenge things you or other senior docs say to learn from our mistakes.

Also, the internet brings out everyone's inner a-hole so that can either be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you take it. Good by not sugarcoating things you say and bad when someone gets offended.

 

[CL Doc]

Well after all this forum IS called "student doctor forum". That's great that you contribute to this forum but you have to realize most of us ARE still ignorant and challenge things you or other senior docs say to learn from our mistakes.
.

If students of my day tried to learn by challenging everything they were told, especially in the clinics, we would have been thrown out of school.

But you are of a different generation and you are used to be tolerated to a certain extent by your teachers. But cop an attitude with the docs of my generation and you'll be spinning the dials at your local walmart. And I dare you to take this attitude in the military. Try putting some attitude on the next recruiter you talk to about a military scholarship.

 

[KHE]

I think you are jealous of the OD, unlike you he pays his wife a salary that is basically given back to him and he drives a nice exotic that you and I could only dream of at this point...I've been at his place for over a year now and he has shared with me a lot of knowledge that I would have only acquired after working as an Optometrist as a business owner. The great thing is that I get to see this knowledge in his practice every week. I truly believe I have most of the stuff about optometry economics figured out, but I may have confused the gross/net by mistake as I don't spend too much time on my posts....

Greg,

I'm familiar with Tippytoe's situation and if you had half a clue as to how successful he is, you'd shut your mouth.

Also, forgot to add that, the gross/net was in comparison to what an md makes. An md grosses 400k while an optometrist could gross 400+k as an owner....the bussiness expenses/taxes are all variable which is why I didn't talk about it...I do truly understand the difference between gross/net however.

For the fourteenth time, an MD grossing 400k as an employee is not anywhere close to the same as an optometrists' practice "grossing", that is to say having 400k worth of revenue.

You're comparing someone's salary to what someone's business takes in in revenue and those are not comparable. That's like saying Bill Gates makes 800 billion a year because that's what Microsoft's revenues are.

 

[pinipig523]

I think what they're saying is that if you were really seasoned and knew all about the economics of private practice OD, then there'd be no reason to make such a monumental mistake between the gross revenue of an office vs what the OD actually sees and then what the OD actually takes home post tax.

You made it seem like an MD employee making $400k is on par with a private practice grossing $400k.

When in fact you forgot to take into account the overhead of nearly 70% (regardless of how variable) and the personal income tax on the remainder. The $400k gross revenue just became:

$400k gross revenue - 70% = 120K - income tax (avg 35% including misc) = $78k

That's an ENORMOUS difference man, that's not being nitpicky!

Compare that to employee MD:
$400k - income tax (35%) = $270k

A difference between $78k and $270k is huge... If you were seasoned, answer KHE... How could you miss this??

I think you are jealous of the OD, unlike you he pays his wife a salary that is basically given back to him and he drives a nice exotic that you and I could only dream of at this point...I've been at his place for over a year now and he has shared with me a lot of knowledge that I would have only acquired after working as an Optometrist as a business owner. The great thing is that I get to see this knowledge in his practice every week. I truly believe I have most of the stuff about optometry economics figured out, but I may have confused the gross/net by mistake as I don't spend too much time on my posts....

Also, just because I am challenging your opinions doesn't make me someone else...when you are torching optometry ad nausem then you should expect someone to challenge your claims...the fact that you act like a child in your postings as an OD is just really saddening....to think that I may be practicing in the future with doctors such as your self is very disheartening and upsetting......

Also, forgot to add that, the gross/net was in comparison to what an md makes. An md grosses 400k while an optometrist could gross 400+k as an owner....the bussiness expenses/taxes are all variable which is why I didn't talk about it...I do truly understand the difference between gross/net however.

 

[CL Doc]

I truly believe I have most of the stuff about optometry economics figured out.

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[pinipig523]

i doubt that khe, he's way too negative to do even some good for himself!

do you know how much bill gates makes? nope, and neither do i... but you say he makes 800 billion, for example. to figure out his true income we would need to take into account his expenses which are highly variable.

this is the same case here, where an od makes his gross income and subtracts expenses that are variable for each practice.

pinpig, your calculations are a bit off:
the od whom i work for makes significantly more than 500k and most make 500k or over....but lets say he made this and netted 180k -20k taxes=160k. He pays his wife 60k a year, or 45k net. He actually ends up making around 205k. This is one of the great advantages of owning your own biz.

if an md makes 400k, he nets 280k or 70%. The disparity in income between an od and md only differs by 75k....not bad.

How are you at 20K taxes at a 180K income??? Where do you get these numbers?

How are you only paying a little over 10% on income tax??

If you make 180 pretax, you're looking at approx 30% at least towards the top end (including SS, etc).

You're at 180K - $51K = $129K. Where did you get $160K???

The disparity is huge. I am seriously beginning to doubt your calculations and numbers.

You're already comparing a private practice gross revenue of $500K (which your optometrist attendings agree is not particularly easy to achieve) to that of an MD (or any employee in fact) at $400K. If you bring both numbers to $500K, you notice that the disparity is even bigger.

And by counting the guy's wife in the mix... that's ridiculous. She can make $60K doing anything else. You're now counting 2 people vs 1.

It's like if I say let's take my wife who is a lawyer who grosses $200K and add it to my salary just so I can show you how much I make as an MD... that doesn't compute.

 

[pinipig523]

if an md makes 400k, he nets 280k or 70%. The disparity in income between an od and md only differs by 75k....not bad.

You are comparing 1 person an MD at 280K net to 2 people making $205K net (per your miscalculated calculations) and saying that $75K doesn't seem to big of a difference? You're comparing a 2 income salary vs a 1 income salary, man!

And I'll correct your calculations and even give you the benefit of the doubt that a private OD can easily make $500K a year in gross revenue (despite what your attendings have repeatedly said).

$500K - 70% overhead = $150K - 30% personal tax (including SS, etc) = $105,000

Compared to an employee (MD or other) at $400K.

$400K - 0% overhead = $400K - 35% personal tax (including SS, etc) = $260K.

Compare $105,000 to $260K. You don't make sense with your earlier calculations.

 

[Shnurek]

If students of my day tried to learn by challenging everything they were told, especially in the clinics, we would have been thrown out of school.

But you are of a different generation and you are used to be tolerated to a certain extent by your teachers. But cop an attitude with the docs of my generation and you'll be spinning the dials at your local walmart. And I dare you to take this attitude in the military. Try putting some attitude on the next recruiter you talk to about a military scholarship.

OK, but this is the internet. That's my whole point. People don't act like this in real life and I'll be fine, thank you.

 

[KHE]

i doubt that khe, he's way too negative to do even some good for himself!

Believe what you want, I guess.

do you know how much bill gates makes? nope, and neither do i... but you say he makes 800 billion, for example. to figure out his true income we would need to take into account his expenses which are highly variable.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I'M MAKING, DING-DONG! In a previous post you talked of an OD "making 400k" when you were referring to his practice gross. That is not anywhere close to what is final take home pay would be either before or after taxes!

this is the same case here, where an od makes his gross income and subtracts expenses that are variable for each practice.

The OD subtracts his expenses and THEN PAYS TAXES ON WHAT'S LEFT OVER!

For example....PRACTICE GROSSES 500K
AFTER EXPENSES THE DOCTOR IS LEFT WITH 150K NET INCOME BEFORE TAXES.
THE DOCTOR THEN PAYS TAXES ON THE 150K AND PUTS WHAT EVER IS LEFT OVER IN HIS CHECKING ACCOUNT.

pinpig, your calculations are a bit off:
the od whom i work for makes significantly more than 500k and most make 500k or over....but lets say he made this and netted 180k -20k taxes=160k. He pays his wife 60k a year, or 45k net. He actually ends up making around 205k. This is one of the great advantages of owning your own biz.

That's not an advantage of owning a business. That's an advantage of employing a spouse if you consider employing your wife an advantage. If the spouse wasn't doing the work and getting paid the 60k, he'd have to hire someone else to do it. The fact the wife is willing and able to do the job isn't some inherent benefit of owning a practice beyond getting to pick who you hire.

if an md makes 400k, he nets 280k or 70%. The disparity in income between an od and md only differs by 75k....not bad.

An MD makes 400k and then pays taxes on the 400k.

The OD in your example "nets" the 280k from the business but then he pays takes on the 280k.

 

[KHE]

Once again, tax rates for business owners aren't the same as employees...by using deductions and other creative counting methods you will pay less taxes....for the sake of privacy, the Od whom I work for nets over 260kand pays muchless then 90k in taxes.....general electric pays 0 % in taxes so it's not that shocking.....also it's not comparing the salary of 1 person to 2 persons...he is effectively paying himself by showing the salary of his wife as a business expense. As an employee, there is basically nothing you can do to hide your income or claim niche expenses....these things can drive up true income....

An employed Md would blow an employed Od out of the water but an owner of a private practice is a whole new beast.

He's not employing the spouse to use her salary as a business expense.

If he was simply employing the spouse and paying her a salary, both he and the practice would end up paying more in FICA taxes than they would have had he just taken the money as his own salary.

What you do is something like this.......

Say the doctor makes $200k and he would have to hire an office manager for $50k.

Instead of doing that, he hires his wife as the office manager for $25k, and pays himself $25k extra and doesn't pay the social security portion of the FICA on the extra $25k.

-OR-

He pays the wife MORE than he otherwise would but then makes massive contrubitions to a tax free retirement package from HER salary if he's already maxed out his contribution..

 

[pinipig523]

He would just do the managerial stuff by himself ,like I said, his wife doesn't do much - its sorta like income splitting/sharing.

The 280k is take home pay i.e. after taxes and expenses (for the od...i've deflated this number for privacy reasons but the ratios are exactly the same)...his taxes are MUCH less than the mds tax, i.e. 120k....obviously, it should be noted that this od grosses a lot more than 400k.

....i've been at this office for a year and half and this is pretty much the reality...so there is really no point of endlessly nit-picking the details.

Once again, tax rates for business owners aren't the same as employees...by using deductions and other creative counting methods you will pay less taxes....for the sake of privacy, the Od whom I work for nets over 260kand pays muchless then 90k in taxes.....general electric pays 0 % in taxes so it's not that shocking.....also it's not comparing the salary of 1 person to 2 persons...he is effectively paying himself by showing the salary of his wife as a business expense. As an employee, there is basically nothing you can do to hide your income or claim niche expenses....these things can drive up true income....

An employed Md would blow an employed Od out of the water but an owner of a private practice is a whole new beast.

My parents own a business and they don't have taxes as low as you have mentioned despite the tax breaks.

You cannot pay 10% tax on your take home pay. Your take home pay is what you make after all deductions have been made for the business... don't you get that? Once you have take home pay, you pay income tax just like every other employee.

 

[CL Doc]

He would just do the managerial stuff by himself ,like I said, his wife doesn't do much - its sorta like income splitting/sharing.

The 280k is take home pay i.e. after taxes and expenses (for the od...i've deflated this number for privacy reasons but the ratios are exactly the same)...his taxes are MUCH less than the mds tax, i.e. 120k....obviously, it should be noted that this od grosses a lot more than 400k.

....i've been at this office for a year and half and this is pretty much the reality...so there is really no point of endlessly nit-picking the details.

I can't believe any OD would share this information with an employee. You know his wife's salary, his gross and net income, his taxes, and his after tax income.

Sounds like a whole lot of BS to me.

 

[thecgrblue]

I find it suspicious that once we rid ourselves of a troll (socal2014, imemily, optom123, etc., etc.) there always seems to be one with a fresh sign-up date that takes their place.

The posts seem to start out innocent enough and then just get belligerent and absurd.

 

[Jason K]

Building a relationship over the years with a true od has been great for my understanding of this profession.....

Emily, you already admitted, about 10 screen names ago, that you are "not a student of the profession and know little of the profession." You've demonstrated that you lack the basic understanding of how practice finances work. Take some time, learn what you need to learn, and then maybe you'll actually get something out of this forum.

She's running you guys in circles again, only as a man now. Let her spin her own wheels.